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Basketball Thread

D

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im really not sure the thunder as a group could play much better than they did yesterday. durant and harden scoring over thirty while both taking less than 20 shots is pretty disugstingly good. give 10 of westbrook's 24 shots to durant, harden, or maybe thabo spotting up deep? thabo shot 43% 3pt this year, but he shot half as many as any other year, so its a pretty small, unusually good sample given his 30% history. but **** they need to try SOMETHING to keep up with the spurs 3point shooting, and he's a solid 8-21 (38%) so far this postseason.

also, Durant is OKC's 'the guy', but he really needs to get super alpha about it and take no fewer than 25 shots imo. remember the pressure lebron faced before game 4 against IND about taking over cleveland style and scoring at least 40? i think Durant should have that kind of pressure on him right now. his team needs it.

VINNY DEL NEGRO GETS SIGNED

FFFFFUUUUUUU


chris paul years...wasted.
 

Hot_ArmS

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jerry sloan could make paul + griffin the new stockton + malone :awesome:

and no im not actually comparing griffin to malone, thatd be a travesty
 

TaFoKiNtS

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I don't think anyone is questioning the Thunder's offense at this point. Honestly, they scored 113 on San Antonio. They need to be nitpicked on how they will defend San Antonio. I don't think many teams have the personal to stop all 3 (harden/westbrook/durant), so they (3) will score regardless.
 

shadrach kabango

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westbrook shooting works in what i like to call one offs
AKA the regular season

the problem is that westbrook will get cold
durant in the regular season got cold too but it was partly up to westbrook THE POINT GUARD
to help durant get hot early
even when durant's not shooting he's immensely valuable to the offense because he spaces the floor

if you put the ball predominantly in durant's hands, westbrook does not space the floor and much of his talents are wasted. he's still valuable because he is a great cutter and a good offensive rebounder, but durant is not a great passer and westbrook crashing the boards would give free points to the spurs via transition offense

the thunder are getting outclassed. it has little to do with the deficiencies of durant/westbrook/harden.

the real focus should be on scott brooks, and by relation derek fisher and perkins. this is where the thunder really miss eric maynor. the spurs are so good because they get contributions from everyone in their rotation; they have 10 league-average NBA players. the thunder don't; perkins, sefolosha and fisher are well below-average. even worse, the best of that trio, sefolosha, is losing minutes to the worst, fisher.

the reason harden/durant can be so efficient is because westbrook takes on the high-usage role. if you force-feed harden/durant the ball to increase their usage that's just going to lower their efficiency. when you evaluate the trio's talents it becomes clear as day that brooks is right in having westbrook be the one who sacrifices efficiency for usage.

give 10 of westbrook's 24 shots to durant, harden, or maybe thabo spotting up deep? thabo shot 43% 3pt this year, but he shot half as many as any other year, so its a pretty small, unusually good sample given his 30% history. but **** they need to try SOMETHING to keep up with the spurs 3point shooting, and he's a solid 8-21 (38%) so far this postseason.
this is stat-head theory crafting that doesn't work in reality.

give 10 of westbrook's shots to durant and harden. sure, harden could afford to get 5+ extra FGA per game and should be playing 38+ minutes, not the 33 he's averaging. scott brooks is dum LDO

but durant isn't the ball-handler harden is, nor does he have the vision harden has. not only is durant a worse option handling the ball than westbrook/harden, he's a much, much better option spacing the floor than westbrook is. so you're taking away westbrook's strengths and accentuating his weaknesses.

play westbrook off the ball and the spurs turn him into a 31% 3-point spot-up shooter. they run him off the 3-point line and now he's barreling, out of control, into the lane. that's a recipe for a lot of turnovers.

also, Durant is OKC's 'the guy', but he really needs to get super alpha about it and take no fewer than 25 shots imo.
cuz that works well for kobe amirite

the thunder's hope comes from the refs. the spurs got ALL THE CALLS the first two games. there's no doubt about that. and that's fine since that's the major advantage of home-court advantage.

the refs didn't call any fouls, which is a huge strike v the thunder since getting to the line is all they do. the thunder should get to the line at will at home, which will help their defense because it'll be set v the spurs' half-court offense.

also worth noting: danny green is 2-for-12 on 3-pointers so far. on the season he shot 43.6%.

anyway as long as ginobili is playing harden to a draw the thunder have no chance

and while i'm bashing scott brooks, WTF happened to serge ibaka's development? he had essentially the same season this year as last. no excuse considering he's friggin 22 with the body and athleticism of a greek god. this is the new NBA dawg. ibaka needs to be starting and playing 35 mpg. the concerns of tim duncan putting ibaka in the torture chamber on the lower block is overblown and flat-out wrong; isos for tim duncan were one of the lowest efficiency plays for the spurs on the season. YOU WANT DUNCAN IN THE POAST WTF?
 

Masmasher@

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even when durant's not shooting he's immensely valuable to the offense because he spaces the floor

if you put the ball predominantly in durant's hands, westbrook does not space the floor and much of his talents are wasted. he's still valuable because he is a great cutter and a good offensive rebounder, but durant is not a great passer and westbrook crashing the boards would give free points to the spurs via transition offense

the thunder are getting outclassed. it has little to do with the deficiencies of durant/westbrook/harden.

the real focus should be on scott brooks, and by relation derek fisher and perkins. this is where the thunder really miss eric maynor. the spurs are so good because they get contributions from everyone in their rotation; they have 10 league-average NBA players. the thunder don't; perkins, sefolosha and fisher are well below-average. even worse, the best of that trio, sefolosha, is losing minutes to the worst, fisher.

the reason harden/durant can be so efficient is because westbrook takes on the high-usage role. if you force-feed harden/durant the ball to increase their usage that's just going to lower their efficiency. when you evaluate the trio's talents it becomes clear as day that brooks is right in having westbrook be the one who sacrifices efficiency for usage.
its not force feeding.
durant has had plenty of cases where hes at the top of the key wide open.
and if west brook cant move without the ball better thats a clear deficiency.

and of course the thunder are getting outclassed lmfao.
i called this before the playoffs started that this was gonna happen when the spurs blew them out in the regular season and i knew the way they operated it was not a blip.


brooks should try harden at point guard and run him in the primary unit.
he doesnt have the gonads to do it but it could work.
westbrook is the decision maker his assists in and out of the regular season are mostly from transition where you are out in the open court anyways.
when you are the decision maker you have to try more to get your teammates hot because when westbrook dribbles the ball up they play more isolation.

that works in one offs
over the course of a series it becomes degenerated by the opposition especially if you have someone like greg pop coaching around it
hahaha
 

theeboredone

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The sad part is. The Spurs scored that many points with Danny Green and Duncan being abysmal. This team is just too good.

I like all the points Shad brought up. Finally, someone here who makes sense.
 
D

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cmon dude this thread wouldnt be fun if we all AGREED with each other

collapsed a long post cuz im so behind the thread

going back a bit, youre right points per shot isnt the end all, but true shooting percentage treats FTA as fga so most of what i say still holds true. i use points per shot because its a good way to estimate TS% and its easier to look at than looking up TS% for every game when looking at a players performance.

also, ive already agreed that harden had a 'bad' series against the lakers, and yeah his game 1 was just as 'bad' (which in reality is simply average because the end result is still 17 points on ). my memory is a lot better than you think, seeing as how i remember watching him and seeing that he was pretty damn good in the playoffs LAST year. and if you wanna bring up his average play against the lakers, dont ignore his stellar play against the mavs. (and why would you talk **** on kobe's D after defending his defensive second team selection?)

i dont see how people can be so high on 23 year old westbrook because he has potential to develop and we see flashes of brilliance. why is everyone so reluctant to buy into the younger 22 year old harden despite his obvious skills in penetration, 3 point shooting, free throw shooting, passing, his great pick and roll game, rebounding, and relatively low turnover rate (given how much he handles the ball)? his worst games are pretty much average and his best games make him look like the best 2 in the nba. and most importantly, like every true superstar, he can get away with a travel every now and then. i feel like its because he doesnt look as good or aesthetic as kobe or wade? who cares, the production is there.

free throws are certainly VERY valuable. obviously, you dont want some players getting to the line, but why wouldnt you want durant, westbrook, and harden getting to the line? its the best way to score! it gives tired players (durant) more time to rest. it gives the defense time to set itself on the other side. it can put players in foul trouble and take them out of a game. these are just the "intangible" benefits (though still legitimately important). the real benefits: they are the highest percentage shots those players can take. the probability they make both is higher than their shooting percentages. they are free points without wasting as much time, thus leaving your team more possessions with which to score more points. said another way, it provides your team a greater margin for error in maintaining a winning pace.
_______

westbrook is more effective at generating scoring opportunities than durant. durant cannot consistently get open. he's a souped-up ray allen.

it's the epitome of an unnuanced observation to look at westbrook's shot totals/efficiency and then at durant's, and blame westbrook for shooting too much. that's actually how the thunder offense is built, and it has to be built that way because durant is not a volume shooter.
im not blaming westbrook, its more on the game plan. so i guess i blame brooks. its coach's job to find a way to get his most efficient scorers the shot as often as possible.

i agree that durant isnt as good at creating, but clearly something needs to be done. (i think he's more like a souped up rashard lewis lol) i'd rather have westbrook using his penetration skills to break down the D and dish to durant or harden (who would hopefully as a result would then have space to work or maybe shoot outside. i get that this is easier said than done.) than get westbrook to shoot for 2 points 24 times a game...

you mean like game 2?

westbrook: 27 points on 24 shots, 7 boards, 8 assists, 0 turnovers
sorry i meant durant and harden type scoring efficiency. 27 on 24 is not good enough to keep up with the spurs' three point shooting. it doesnt matter that he had a ~50% fg percentage. if he's taking 24 shots, he needs to be netting something like 1.4 points per shot (which would be 33 points on 24 shots. kind of like parker's game 2). anything less, and that kind of volume actually hurts against the spurs (and only the spurs).

but i just dont think its possible. i really think the spurs are too ridiculously balanced like shadrach pointed out:

the real focus should be on scott brooks, and by relation derek fisher and perkins. this is where the thunder really miss eric maynor. the spurs are so good because they get contributions from everyone in their rotation; they have 10 league-average NBA players. the thunder don't; perkins, sefolosha and fisher are well below-average. even worse, the best of that trio, sefolosha, is losing minutes to the worst, fisher.
the thunder's hope comes from the refs. the spurs got ALL THE CALLS the first two games. there's no doubt about that. and that's fine since that's the major advantage of home-court advantage.
truth.

and no im not actually comparing griffin to malone, thatd be a travesty
for now. im pretty sure malone was pretty raw when he started out too. i would love Sloan to coach LAC

cuz that works well for kobe amirite
it certainly used to back when he was actually the best player in the league, not the tired wrinkled shadow we see today. game 5 in the last series was vintage kobe. he looked fresh as hell

brooks should try harden at point guard and run him in the primary unit.
i actually like harden coming off the bench to give durant and WB rest while he's on the free throw line for days at a time. also, he's efficient enough offensively to hedge the loss they see in losing durant and WB to the bench reasonably well. i think WB coming off the bench as an energy guy could be awesome for his current skill, but probably terrible given his personality.

 

TaFoKiNtS

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I agree with Adam. Ibaka should be getting 40 minutes a game. I would rather have him vs. Duncan on the block as opposed to Perkins vs. Parker on the switch. We all saw how that went....
 

theeboredone

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cmon dude this thread wouldnt be fun if we all AGREED with each other
I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth. I simply believe my opinion has more validation than others around here.

going back a bit, youre right points per shot isnt the end all, but true shooting percentage treats FTA as fga so most of what i say still holds true. i use points per shot because its a good way to estimate TS% and its easier to look at than looking up TS% for every game when looking at a players performance.
And I, along with many other analysts, journalists, and athletes use the eye test. James Harden when taking a shot, is usually a good wide open shot compared to other volume shooters who have to take more difficult shots. So not only that boosts his percentage, but his ability to get to the foul line helps as well if you do the whole TS%. When James Harden becomes a FA not this off-season, but next off season (assuming he does), we'll see if he can be a franchise player like Wade or Kobe.

also, ive already agreed that harden had a 'bad' series against the lakers, and yeah his game 1 was just as 'bad' (which in reality is simply average because the end result is still 17 points on ).
7/17 is average? 0 free throws to boot? Stop the presses. If that's Kobe going 7/17, we say he shoots too much. It's a poor shooting percentage. He's getting old. He needs to give it to the bigs. Or do you wanna look at that for a James Harden game that's average? Cause average for him is shooting 49%. That was below average for his standards.

my memory is a lot better than you think, seeing as how i remember watching him and seeing that he was pretty damn good in the playoffs LAST year.
I guess if you consider 13-5-3 "damn good" for last year. This year, it's 18-5-3, but he's also taking 3 more shots per game.

and if you wanna bring up his average play against the lakers, dont ignore his stellar play against the mavs. (and why would you talk **** on kobe's D after defending his defensive second team selection?)
Did I say I agreed completely with Kobe's selection? Did you forget I said that if I had it my way, I would have guys like Sefolosha, Tony Allen, Avery Bradley, Iman Shumpert before guys like Wade, Kobe or anyone else for that matter. It is the All NBA DEFENSE team. All I was saying that, you can defend Kobe's spot on there, because when he puts his mind to it, he can defend the best. Unfortunately, he doesn't do that in a 66 game season, and didn't deserve it.

However, if it was for a one game, one stand...I would strongly consider Kobe for a defensive assignment.
 
D

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haha adam is the truth

i mean his bad games are league average performances, not average for him. that wouldnt make any sense by definition of the word. when he was in the game, and actually doing stuff, he impressed me in the playoffs last year. i know people use the eye test--i do to lol its not like i dont watch games. he passed my eye test, and he's still improving. i use stats to verify the results of our very fallible eye test. i see no reason he wont be a great primary ball handler. and he's not a two tool player; he's really good at the pull up mid range 2 as well. he doesnt shoot it much (he seems to save it for when he's not getting foul calls in the lane) likely because its a lower value shot than the 3 pointers and the layups he usually takes. whether or not thats intentional, i think thats a strength id rather my players have over the volume shooters that are "forced" to take bad shots. i really believe team ball is highly underused, and teams are relying on the 'shot creators' aka volume scorers too much nowadays. everyone wants to be a michael jordan highlight reel so much that no one plays like a team anymore. well, no one but the bulls and spurs.

its like people forgot that MJ was really fundamentally sound and his iso's weren't the first option on the offense. he played great team ball and was great without the ball. lol new NBA sucks. i wish i was alive for the 80s.

anyway the only concern i have is about harden is his body type. i wonder if his cardio is up to par, and if he's going to put on a bunch of weight like baron davis. i hope the beard and his old-man-at-the-park style of play is tricking me, but he seems like he might age a little too quickly. i seriously hope im wrong cuz i love watching him play.

i dont think his value will ever be really appreciated by the mainstream media (that far overvalues volume scoring) and by extension, most fans, but gm's and coaches love the guy. i remember reading about okc's upcoming front office dilemma earlier this year, and the writer anonymously interviewed coaches and gm's around the league about which of the two players (harden/ibaka) theyd rather have. while which of the two players they'd take was split right down the middle (ibaka's size/athleticism is so rare), the consensus was that harden is an elite wing in his own right.
 

theeboredone

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If Sloan is gonna go to the Bobcats, he needs something to work with. I feel really bad how his time in Utah ended. Total disrespect towards him. He needs a franchise player to work with.
 

The Real Gamer

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I'd personally like to see him go to the Cavaliers. The combination of him and ROY Kyrie Irving would be something special to watch in the upcoming years.

EDIT: Oh wow it was the Hornets!
 
D

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raon definitely earned his j tonight

died at the twitter posts

cant believe you could put bulls and spurs in the same reference in terms of team ball lol
the bulls try, theyre just not as good as the spurs.
 

theeboredone

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I will say this. I hope Boston get the refs on their side at home. Just look at the technicals in this series.

1. Ray Allen turning away and talking to himself.
2. Doc saying "Hey Eddy!"
3. KG getting a T for slapping ball instead of delay of game.
4. Chalmers bad mouths ref.
5. KG gets slapped in the face by James JOnes, subtley pushes him...only he gets the T.

The one that should have been called? Wade staring at KG after the and 1 play in OT. Stared at him for a good 5 secs. If that's not taunting, I don't know what is.
 

shadrach kabango

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zzzz where da finals at

not gonna lie, the older i get the more i think the nba is rigged. this'll prob be my last postseason

both of these series are over btw. home team that goes up 2-0 is 94% to win the series. 3-1 adv is 96%. bring on the finals plz
 
D

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not gonna lie, the older i get the more i think the nba is rigged. this'll prob be my last postseason
i always feel a little crazy for thinking it, but i cant stop thinking it. and then i somehow keep getting sucked back in.

the heat aren't as good on the road...the celtics can hang in miami...idk i dont think itll happen, but i could see boston stealing the series on a couple off days from miami's stars
 

soap

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actually that KG one was called a delay of game, but it was the second one so it is automatically a Technical. A team technical.


I'm more pissed about that no foul call on Rondo.

Pretty much decided the game right there.


Real disappointed in the refs these playoffs. I'm also tiring of the playoffs.
 
D

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didnt know that

and for all the jawing the celtics do, i'm ok with the stare down. id bet the officials are going to swing the other way in boston.

not ok with rondo's no call slap across the face. that was pretty bad. i think the heat wouldve won anyway though. no one but rondo was really keeping up.

oh man i cringed and shed a single tear when ray got swatted on that layup. hard to watch.
 

theeboredone

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Boston will win game 3 in similar fashion to the Lakers. Game 4, they will lose. Game 5, it will end.

I see a similar fate with the Spurs. Lose game 3, though they may end up losing game 4 as well.

Then we'll have a finals where I get to see Ginobili outflop Wade. I can't be anymore happier.

Edit:

57% of SN says that the Celtics got robbed by the refs lol.

For some reason Montana likes the Heat.
 
D

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im thinking spurs in 5, heat in 6. just gut feelings at this point. i really think the officiating is going to come down hard on the heat. gotta keep the sports nation happy.

itll be like how they treated wade after he broke kobe's nose. they called him for anything and everything in that 1st game against the lakers after the break

about the wade Nair on kg though, it seems like kg hits his elbow a split second before he gets kicked

how does the nba treat fouls? its the first to occur right, not the 'bigger' foul? how do you guys think it should be?
 

theeboredone

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I just get the feeling the obvious ref reaction is to look "up" where the action is. And when assuming for the most part it's clean, they will notice a person's leg flailing out like a moron.

I still didn't agree with Pierce getting fouled out when he went straight up. Wade should NOT have gotten free throws at that juncture.
 
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