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Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments

Should Bayonetta be banned?

  • Yes, she is game breaking

    Votes: 157 19.6%
  • No, players need to adapt to her mechanics

    Votes: 398 49.6%
  • Not sure yet, meta progress or patches could resolve the issue.

    Votes: 248 30.9%

  • Total voters
    803
Status
Not open for further replies.

Zult

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You consider it a hard read? The primary criticism of Bayonetta is that she is low risk high reward. Witch Time is something that people throw out just in case. Either nothing bad happens, or Bayonetta starts a devastating combo. Yeah, it's such a hard read...
At lower levels of play, sure. You don't need a move as slow as falcon punch to have it be considered a hard read. If you get witch timed then he most likely thought you were going to throw out a move a.k.a a read. Now the rewards you get from a fresh witch time is pretty stupid no doubt, but we're talking about landing the move in the first place. It's a counter at the end of the day and to land a counter you most likely have to go for a read. Spamming counters isn't a viable option at mid-high levels of play because they are highly punishable when predicted. Bait it out like you would a normal counter.
 

GeneralLedge

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I think a "how to beat Bayonetta" video would be highly beneficial in this instance.

Not to nullify the potential for nerfs (I'm sure there will be nerfs due to the open outcry at the moment), but to alleviate a lot of the pressure for the time being.

Bully says "you only won because you used Bayonetta" and you can say "didn't you watch that video about beating her?" and bully will blush and go off to learn something new and maybe shut up about it. Or maybe they'll go back to their corner and pick their nose or whatever it is they do.

On the flip-side, judging how many or few ways to 'beat Bayonetta' would better scope how severe or overblown she is. Maybe the people complaining are right, but it's really difficult to do anything unless you learn. I for one have no idea how to fight Bayonetta at all!
 
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Muster

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I think a "how to beat Bayonetta" video would be highly beneficial in this instance.

Not to nullify the potential for nerfs (I'm sure there will be nerfs due to the open outcry at the moment), but to alleviate a lot of the pressure for the time being.

Bully says "you only won because you used Bayonetta" and you can say "didn't you watch that video about beating her?" and bully will blush and go off to learn something new and maybe shut up about it. Or maybe they'll go back to their corner and pick their nose or whatever it is they do.

On the flip-side, judging how many or few ways to 'beat Bayonetta' would better scope how severe or overblown she is. Maybe the people complaining are right, but it's really difficult to do anything unless you learn. I for one have no idea how to fight Bayonetta at all!
There are already a few "how to beat bayonetta" videos out there, but i'm not sure any of them are comprehensive. most videos only cover a few things, like how to DI out of certain combos

Edit: it seems that getting out of her combos is as far as these videos get, never mind.
 
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D

Deleted member 269706

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ZeRo has a habit of wording things very poorly and not knowing restraint. I'm going to assume that him making the video on Smash players in Social Media might be an acknowledgment of that fact. The problem isn't so much with what he's saying as opposed to how it's gotten interpreted by a lot of people. That's the risk of being on display. Hell, he's even one of the people who actively opposes a ban against Bayonetta because he wants to figure out how to beat her, so in the grand scheme of things he probably errs more to the side who heavily dispute the controversy as of late in spite of having inadvertedly fueled a lot of misconceptions in the first place.
Yeah I think that's a fair way of putting it. I mean, ZeRo does bring a few points that I really do agree with, but in the end, you're right. The interpretation (from both ends of the argument) are getting very skewed. I think his overall analysis was pretty fair though. It's easy to cherry pick and make it sound like he's completely for one side, but at the end of the day, like you said, he is opposing the ban. Whether he honestly believes that or doesn't want to put up with the drama that comes with taking the side, we may not know. My original point was just that he deserves to be listened to, but he shouldn't be as influential or hated as he is.
Love the Avi btw
 

Scribe

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There are already a few "how to beat bayonetta" videos out there, but i'm not sure any of them are comprehensive. most videos only cover a few things, like how to DI out of certain combos

Edit: it seems that getting out of her combos is as far as these videos get, never mind.
Yeah. Guides on how to DI out of her combos are incredibly useful, but her combos are only once facet of her kit and of the matchup. A lot of people overlook the neutral and preventing her from starting those combos in the first place.
 
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GeneralLedge

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More specifically, circulating said video is very important.

As for existing DI videos, they could be put into a playlist and linked in the description of said video. But like Kip said, there's more to it than just the DI/SDI. A lot more.
 
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And of course the character has to be taken into account, as well; escaping/preventing Bayo combos as :4sheik: is worlds different than doing it as :4charizard:, for example.
 
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Scribe

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And of course the character has to be taken into account, as well; escaping/preventing Bayo combos as :4sheik: is worlds different than doing it as :4charizard:, for example.
I feel like character-specific videos would fall into the purview of top players who main those characters (Unfortunately, I don't know who the top 'Zard main is, since he has such little representation), though when it comes to general tactics for dealing with Bayo, you can probably break it down by weight class, falling speed, and archetype.
  • Universal tactics (Works no matter what character)
  • Lightweights (Pika, Fox, Jiggs, etc.)
  • Mediumweights (Mario, Pit, Ness, etc.)
  • Heavyweights (Yoshi, Samus, Bowser, 'Zard, etc.)
  • Floaties (Yoshi, Samus, Jiggs, Ness, etc.)
  • Fast Fallers (Fox, Sheik, Roy, etc.)
  • Zoners (Bowser Jr., D3, M2, etc.)
  • Rushdown (Fox, Sheik, ZSS, etc.)
  • Footsies/Bait & Punish (Ike, Cap, Ryu, etc. Even useful for Bayo herself in mirror matches.)
 

TheBuzzSaw

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At lower levels of play, sure. You don't need a move as slow as falcon punch to have it be considered a hard read. If you get witch timed then he most likely thought you were going to throw out a move a.k.a a read. Now the rewards you get from a fresh witch time is pretty stupid no doubt, but we're talking about landing the move in the first place. It's a counter at the end of the day and to land a counter you most likely have to go for a read. Spamming counters isn't a viable option at mid-high levels of play because they are highly punishable when predicted. Bait it out like you would a normal counter.
Charging up a smash in the opposite direction because you anticipate a foolish roll in that direction is a hard read. Throwing out a Witch Time to cover any number of a dozen options your opponent has is not a hard read; it's a fairly basic defense. I'm not talking about spamming counter; I'm talking about simply covering a number of bases. It has nothing to do with low level versus high level play. A missed Witch Time doesn't leave the biggest punish window open.
 

Buddhahobo

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It's easy to cherry pick and make it sound like he's completely for one side, but at the end of the day, like you said, he is opposing the ban.
It's because of that I believe so many people are willing to ignore all the parts in the video he effectively went off the deep end.

It's also not a matter of making him out to be a bad guy. Nor is it a matter of making him out to be a good guy. It's understanding the cause and effect caused by a person with a large impressionable audience, especially when that effect can and, in this case, has translate into strife at our personal scenes. Content Creators, whether that be via video, as a journalist, or even as a Scientist writing a paper for academic review, have such a responsibility to their audiences. It does not matter if they meant it or not, if they said it, they said it. And if they say it multiple times...it's vexing, as you can't just tell the people parroting it that they're wrong in their interpretation per say, as possible nuance isn't really something that can be added after the fact, in a different setting.

And only one of those four moves has the ability to link into a combo to the top blast zone, in any case.
I feel like that's a bit of a silly distinction.

If Jigglypuff is using rest on you, it really doesn't matter if she can combo out of it when you're already dead, after all.

Outside of the odd oddshot, we really don't see actual 0-to-death Bayonetta combos either. I'm patiently waiting for the Pound videos to come out to properly go over Pink Fresh and Saj's battles (assuming I have the time); Hyuga especially was living through the vast most of Pink Fresh's "inescapable" ladder combos. When they don't actually net the kill until 80%+ (or even 40ish%, pure Rest and Waft range) or they have to catch you when your somewhere on the top platform, I don't really see what makes hers so special compared to the other ladder combos we've had.

So, I mean...yeah. A worst Rest, but technically a better waft because it resets on KO. And I realize at some point with this I've gotten massively confused and mixed WT and the ladder combos in my head.

This would be perfect, especially since this means that characters like Charizard, DK and Bowser don't have to live in perpetual fear of getting elevatored at hilariously low percents.
A passing thought on theorizing Bayonetta's game plan - I wonder what if somehow knockback acted the opposite for her than the rest of the cast. Like, a high BKB but a negative KBG for most of her combo moves.

Ergo, in theory, her elevator combos would fail at low percent and succeed at high percents.
Would it be possible to achieve this type of effect through multi-hit moves and alternating windboxes?

Are there any moves already in the game to help me visualize what you're saying here?

Really, I'd give Witch Time a similar property; making the amount of time that it slows opponents decrease as percentages go down; so a WT at 0% would only slow someone down for a short span (maybe like a second), while a WT at 50% is basically what WT is right now, and a WT at 100% is even more effective. That way it's not nearly as easy to set up into chains off of Witch Time at low percents, raising her risk/reward ratio.
I'd argue that that isn't really true to her source material though. Changing it so it's a constant amount based off percentage rather then usage doesn't sit right with me.

If we're specifically talking about Witch Time, I feel like the best place to look would be how, in her games, you're punished for spamming dodging too many times instead of timing the attack (she does a backflip to a leg split IIRC, and you're stuck like that for several seconds as enemies will most certainly take advantage of it, if not kill you outright).

In the same vein, I'd just lengthen recharge time to make it more like the inverse waft it essentially is, not mess with the timing it already has on first attempt. It already has the benefit of coming back recharged upon KO, after all.

Same thing with the ladder combos, honestly. I would be interested in seeing, for example, what would happen if that landing lag were to be, say, doubled, such that anyone getting out of that combo has a better chance of punish, like Hyuga did a whole bunch of times. And, well, truth be told, I'm not entirely sure that the triple jump + 2 witch twists thing she has isn't a just a glitch, or an unforeseen side effect of them trying to compensate for tap jump players.

Bayonetta really is one of the better designed characters in the game for those reasons, in my opinion, and one of the few who got a public developer overview video to cement it. Unlike what many people have said, she really doesn't need to be torn down and built back up, just tweak some of the numbers in the very clearly defined weaknesses she's already supposed to have. Besides that triple jump. Still confused about that.
And of course the character has to be taken into account, as well; escaping/preventing Bayo combos as :4sheik: is worlds different than doing it as :4charizard:, for example.
I suppose, but if we're going to talk about the heavies, it's not like Bayonetta is the first person to invalidate them when it comes to stuff like that. It's never going to be as easy for a R.O.B. to escape a juggle (if at all, ie juggle food characters) as it is a Sheik.

Sure, they're collectively better then they have been before (baring few exceptions, such as Brawl Dedede), but were Fair sheik strings and Diddy hooha downthrow to up air combos really that much easier to deal with?
 
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Greward

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Bayonetta attacks can be shielded, a mechanic that ice climbers invalidate and punish you with real 0- to deaths(with them there actually no DI that can save you) for using against them, tell me how a character that can punish you for using a defensive option intended in the game is worse that bayo, because zero say it so, that is not an actual argument only a opinión.
IC had a very worse neutral game (while bayonetta combos are "invalidated" with shield, that she can grab and then put you in the air where her actual combos do work), IC combos were invalidated by being in the air, on a non-moving platform or by simply desynching or killing Nana.
ZeRo said so might not be the best argument out there, but he did say so.

if i was you i'd stop quoting zero with any regards to this character. he hasn't proven to be knowledgable about her all he has done is make a video that made people think it was ok to treat baytonetta players poorly becaus eshe "carries" them dispite no evidence used to back that up.
she's not worse than the ice climbers in brawl or melee. there's a post on this page about how the ice climbers are always threatening your stock with a grab. she isn't nearly that threatening.
You are calling ZeRo wrong based on who's words, yours? Obviously you are more knowledgeable about bayonetta than ZeRo. lol
There's evidence, just that you don't want to see it.
She can set 0 death up from plenty of options I already mentioned, you call me a liar without any kind of proof to disregard what I said so what else can I say?

This guy here is keep spreading misinformation about Bayonetta, he is entitled to his opinion, but like ZeRo he is a very popular player that lost a tournament to his local scene because he didn't know the Bayonetta Match Up. So drive by posts about banning are a result of a sour loser in the Spanish competitive scene.
Zero didn't lose to any Bayonetta.
I have lost to way more characters than Bayonetta, why is it the only character I believe we have to ban? This whole post is an attack to myself but IDC.

He keeps lying about the Japanese scene that they have trouble with Bayonetta also but there is not proof or a claim by the Japanese community to back his claims. Aba, 9B and other prominent players in Japan and 9B is Bayonetta main did not said anything when they were asked about the matter.
I posted tournament results before, there is way more stuff out there but I'm not willing to share it because you guys are going to bombard japan with all this kind of **** I've been through. Give them time to solve their own issues and they'll come out when they have decided.


Just chill for now, Bayonetta is going to be fixed/nerfed very soon anyways and hopefully this discussion will end without the need of a ban. This should not be like Brawl because we do have patches.
I'm not here to make you guys ban Bayonetta or anything. Honestly, I don't give a **** about whatever you do in America. As I stated, the upcoming nerf will stop all the ban topic, so just calm down and stop verbally attacking each other.
 
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NotLiquid

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IC had a very worse neutral game (while bayonetta combos are "invalidated" with shield, that she can grab and then put you in the air where her actual combos do work)
Bayonetta gets, like, nothing from a grab. A forward throw kill/edge guard situation in high percentages perhaps, but her grabs are Cloud-tier levels of "get away from me" design and don't guarantee any follow-ups. The only characters that will lose from Bayonetta getting a grab are those with slow air speeds.

Just chill for now, Bayonetta is going to be fixed/nerfed very soon anyways and hopefully this discussion will end without the need of a ban. This should not be like Brawl because we do have patches.
I'm not here to make you guys ban Bayonetta or anything. Honestly, I don't give a **** about whatever you do in America. As I stated, the upcoming nerf will stop all the ban topic, so just calm down and stop verbally attacking each other.
Bayonetta was already nerfed once and it didn't stop people from wanting her banned. You have no way of knowing how much another Bayonetta nerf will affect her or if it'll even be enough. Like I said way back; it took over a year until Sheik got all the appropriate nerfs she deserved despite her intermittently getting them between patches. There's a decent chance the nerfs won't be enough to stop talks about banning her at all.

We have no way of predicting how much is going to change. Can we please stop pretending that we do?
 

Xephilon

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Bayonetta gets, like, nothing from a grab. A forward throw kill/edge guard situation in high percentages perhaps, but her grabs are Cloud-tier levels of "get away from me" design and don't guarantee any follow-ups. The only characters that will lose from Bayonetta getting a grab are those with slow air speeds.
This. Besides, I think its pretty obvious when a Bayo is going for a grab since her dash attack is awful. If you see a Bayo run up too close to you while you're holding shield, she's gonna try for a grab 90% of the time. And since most of her moves are slow AF, she can be easily punished afterwards.
 

Darksydaz

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I'm just a spectator that decided to activate this account to speak on this convo but I was curious after reading some 19 pages of this that might answer some questions and help me understand all sides involved.

My position is such:
I am a Sheik main but I really like playing Bayonetta. I'm not really involved in my local scene like that but I have a small group of friends and even people that I play smash with a lot. I AM interested in competitive smash and I do like Bayonetta a lot. I don't think bayonetta is busted but takes the current flowchart of most characters and throws them on her head because she has a very dangerous counter in the form of witch time.

I know there are people that oppose this, so I wanted to ask such:

1.) Bayonetta receives increased landing lag upon her moves that persist beyond her Aerials, why is pushing her Landing Lag not an option?

2.) I watched the video of Taiheita and 9B, I didn't think it was campy but a great use of space to for Bayonetta to do what she wasn't really designed to do: approach. Why is spacing out not possible or seen as not fun?

3.) Why hasn't anyone thought of the option of baiting out Witch time? If she uses it twice, the time that she can use witch time is greatly reduced correct?

4.) Why is there fear mongering over the potential of a character being as dominant as "Brawl MK" or "Brawl IC". The only thing she has really going for her is an insane punish game which makes her like ZSS on steroids. But her frame data is severely lacking so the only options she really has out of shield is Witch Time or Witch twist. Is playing passive that frowned upon?

Maybe I'm misinformed. Maybe people are upset that Bayonetta won the Smash Ballot. I was just wondering why everyone besides Spain is for banning her and saying she is bad for the scene without giving a chance to adapt or allowing the meta to encompass anti-Bayo tech.

I'm just curious as to the other sides to this argument as opposed to mines.
 

Greward

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Bayonetta gets, like, nothing from a grab. A forward throw kill/edge guard situation in high percentages perhaps, but her grabs are Cloud-tier levels of "get away from me" design and don't guarantee any follow-ups. The only characters that will lose from Bayonetta getting a grab are those with slow air speeds.



Bayonetta was already nerfed once and it didn't stop people from wanting her banned. You have no way of knowing how much another Bayonetta nerf will affect her or if it'll even be enough. Like I said way back; it took over a year until Sheik got all the appropriate nerfs she deserved despite her intermittently getting them between patches. There's a decent chance the nerfs won't be enough to stop talks about banning her at all.

We have no way of predicting how much is going to change. Can we please stop pretending that we do?
Uthrow can combo sometimes, and can bait airdodges and stuff she can capitalize with upB or sideB.
Dthrow maybe comboes into jab in some matchups but i don't really know since bayonetta shouldn't bother with it.
Yes, they aren't the best throws out there, but she can use them. Up throw is her BnB throw to try and start a combo, although not guaranteed.
Bayonetta nerf was a nerf, I'm talking more in the likes of a fix coming (something that affects her current gameplay instead of just tweaking some damage/FAF numbers). Of course I can't know it's coming, I find it likely because:

Alfalfalfa. [Japonesa]

DailyDot. [Americana]

EventHubs. [Americana]

GoNintendo. [Americana]

Antena3. [Española]

Ga-M. [Japonesa]

ParticleNews. [Americana]

CheezBurger. [Americana]

eSportsPress. [Americana]

OneCall2CH. [Japonesa]

AlwaysNintendo. [Americana]

NintendoLife. [Americana]

TechnoBuffalo. [Americana]

Nintenderos. [Española]

SmaBros. [Japonesa]

Reddit. [Mundial]

and these are just a few
Nintendo should be aware that there's, in fact, some problems with the character. Or at least perceived as.
 

AkiraGr

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You are calling ZeRo wrong based on who's words, yours? Obviously you are more knowledgeable about bayonetta than ZeRo. lol
There's evidence, just that you don't want to see it.
She can set 0 death up from plenty of options I already mentioned, you call me a liar without any kind of proof to disregard what I said so what else can I say?
You can SDI all of her UpSpecial combos. My training buddy is doing it all the time you can avoid 66% of the combo options by doing a down and away DI in every situation. Thus ZeRo is not stupid he plays to win and know information like that BUT he is also biased do you thing he runs a charity and wants everyone to know what he knows. Also he do not main Bayonetta. It is too difficult for him to play because of command inputs, same with Ryu. Too risky for him to use this kind of character when he wants precision in his options when he plays. I study ZeRo's play style since the beginning of Smash 4.


Zero didn't lose to any Bayonetta.
I have lost to way more characters than Bayonetta, why is it the only character I believe we have to ban? This whole post is an attack to myself but IDC.
He didn't lose because he didn't play any good Bayonetta's yet, he is not participating tournaments because of his health, in my opinion he just chicken out because of the new characters strategies and he do not know the meta after the Sheik nerf.


I posted tournament results before, there is way more stuff out there but I'm not willing to share it because you guys are going to bombard japan with all this kind of **** I've been through. Give them time to solve their own issues and they'll come out when they have decided.
The tourney result say nothing other than the players skill that won the Tournament not if the Character is overpowered. Did you post who won each tournament? 9B and other prominent players in each region. You are so biased trying to pass you point of view because you can not stand the gameplay that Bayonetta brings into the game. A more fast paced combo meta which by your performance in the last tournament was quite telling about your skill in the game.


Just chill for now, Bayonetta is going to be fixed/nerfed very soon anyways and hopefully this discussion will end without the need of a ban. This should not be like Brawl because we do have patches.
I'm not here to make you guys ban Bayonetta or anything. Honestly, I don't give a **** about whatever you do in America. As I stated, the upcoming nerf will stop all the ban topic, so just calm down and stop verbally attacking each other.
Is this suppose to be an insider info? Do you know personally any people on the developing team if they are going to patch Bayonetta? Or is it hopeful thinking that the outcry and whining of a minority will achieve result.

Japanese players do not have any issue with Bayonetta. From the people that I have communication with, anecdotal evidence but at least I speak with a lot of people from the competitive scene for this matter in the last two days. On the other hand we have your biased opinion on the subject clearly a twitter campaign that went wrong to create chaos about the character from you, spreading misinformation globally about the Spanish Smash Competitive Scene plus a biased poll which was created by you and tried to manipulated it with your followers on twitter.

Please at least stop lying.

P.S I am not in the American Smash Scene but in the Hellenic Smash Scene.

Edit:


Alfalfalfa. [Japonesa]

DailyDot. [Americana]

EventHubs. [Americana]

GoNintendo. [Americana]

Antena3. [Española]

Ga-M. [Japonesa]

ParticleNews. [Americana]

CheezBurger. [Americana]

eSportsPress. [Americana]

OneCall2CH. [Japonesa]

AlwaysNintendo. [Americana]

NintendoLife. [Americana]

TechnoBuffalo. [Americana]

Nintenderos. [Española]

SmaBros. [Japonesa]

Reddit. [Mundial]

and these are just a few
Nintendo should be aware that there's, in fact, some problems with the character. Or at least perceived as.
Your motives were clear from the beginning this adds further proof of your volatile behavior in the community trying to create noise with misinformation and a biased opinion. I really hope Smash Spain Community to create counter measures for this improper behavior. At least in our scene we have a protocol and rules to avoid situation as such this. Total shame in my opinion you make us look like spoiled brats in the FGC.
 
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NotLiquid

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Messages
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Uthrow can combo sometimes, and can bait airdodges and stuff she can capitalize with upB or sideB.
Dthrow maybe comboes into jab in some matchups but i don't really know since bayonetta shouldn't bother with it.
Yes, they aren't the best throws out there, but she can use them. Up throw is her BnB throw to try and start a combo, although not guaranteed.
Bayonetta nerf was a nerf, I'm talking more in the likes of a fix coming (something that affects her current gameplay instead of just tweaking some damage/FAF numbers). Of course I can't know it's coming, I find it likely because:

Alfalfalfa. [Japonesa]

DailyDot. [Americana]

EventHubs. [Americana]

GoNintendo. [Americana]

Antena3. [Española]

Ga-M. [Japonesa]

ParticleNews. [Americana]

CheezBurger. [Americana]

eSportsPress. [Americana]

OneCall2CH. [Japonesa]

AlwaysNintendo. [Americana]

NintendoLife. [Americana]

TechnoBuffalo. [Americana]

Nintenderos. [Española]

SmaBros. [Japonesa]

Reddit. [Mundial]

and these are just a few
Nintendo should be aware that there's, in fact, some problems with the character. Or at least perceived as.
I'm not talking about whether a change is going to happen. I'm talking about how it's going to happen, because reporting on a problem isn't the same as actively analyzing a problem and what it entails. How do you think they are going to go by "fixing" Bayonetta and how do you think they are going to figure it out the best way possible? Because rushing a change is going to be ridiculously short-sighted and they never push out a patch for the sake of one character unless it is to fix a very erroneous issue with them (Diddy Kong was subject to this, arguably twice). It is most likely going to take some time because they account for everyone in these patches.

Yeah, I can see them nerfing Witch Twist hitboxes, Divekick safety and some landing lag. That doesn't change how on a fundamental level it's her options that were specifically made to accommodate heavy damage racking which is hard to "fix". That's my only real problem with this insistence of saying "don't worry guys, the patch will fix everything and we won't talk any more about this". Because we don't know it will. I think talking about how to fix Bayonetta design-wise would be good but the issue is we don't know if that's what the designers will take heed of. It's best if we just stop pretending that we know for a fact that they will save us from a broad issue.
 
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David Viran

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This. Besides, I think its pretty obvious when a Bayo is going for a grab since her dash attack is awful. If you see a Bayo run up too close to you while you're holding shield, she's gonna try for a grab 90% of the time. And since most of her moves are slow AF, she can be easily punished afterwards.
Bayo jumps around a lot so most bayo players just tomahawk and most players don't just throw out a grab every time they dash in. It's not about whether or not she wants to grab, it's when exactly will they grab. If a bayo player goes for an immediate dash in grab 100% of the time it would be stupid. The bayo player has other options like run through shield and pivot grab, pivot tilt, Cancel the initial dash with a jump, or nothing at all.
 

Greward

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Dude I wasn't even the one to start it in Reddit. This blew up not because of me lol, I just stated the facts.
The reasons this blew up (imo) is because in everyone's mind it's plausible for her to be banned. If we had banned idk Mario instead nobody would be giving a ****.

Your partner looks amazing at SDI. Could he make a video explaining how to SDI properly the upB?
On the DI down and away and it can combo, you are probably messing up. If you DI down and away you have to follow up with fair1-upb. Else he is doing a different DI no one knows of. Or you are dropping it.

He didn't lose because he didn't play any good Bayonetta's yet
Well that's true, I guess even ZeRo can't defeat Bayonetta lmao

Comparing Ryu's skill floor with Bayonetta is... wrong.

Japanese players do not have any issue with Bayonetta. From the people that I have communication with, anecdotal evidence but at least I speak with a lot of people from the competitive scene for this matter in the last two days. On the other hand we have your biased opinion on the subject clearly a twitter campaign that went wrong to create chaos about the character from you, spreading misinformation globally about the Spanish Smash Competitive Scene plus a biased poll which was created by you and tried to manipulated it with your followers on twitter.
"Greward, what do you want to do tonight?"
"The same thing we do every night, bud. Try and get Bayonetta banned all over the world."


I'm not talking about whether a change is going to happen. I'm talking about how it's going to happen, because reporting on a problem isn't the same as actively analyzing a problem and what it entails. How do you think they are going to go by "fixing" Bayonetta and how do you think they are going to figure it out the best way possible? Because rushing a change is going to be ridiculously short-sighted and they never push out a patch for the sake of one character unless it is to fix a very erroneous issue with them (Diddy Kong was subject to this, arguably twice). It is most likely going to take some time because they account for everyone in these patches.

Yeah, I can see them nerfing Witch Twist hitboxes, Divekick safety and some landing lag. That doesn't change how on a fundamental level it's her options that were specifically made to accommodate heavy damage racking which is hard to "fix". That's my only real problem with this insistence of saying "don't worry guys, the patch will fix everything and we won't talk any more about this". Because we don't know it will. I think talking about how to fix Bayonetta design-wise would be good but the issue is we don't know if that's what the designers will take heed of. It's best if we just stop pretending that we know for a fact that they will save us from a broad issue.
Well you are right that we don't know.
I'd actually take away her ceiling kill combos without an aerial move. UpB not being able to combo into itself would be a nice move. Probably some more stuff like divekick having more endlag, witch time depending on % done by the move.
But it's not like I even have to wonder about it myself, since it's the balance team decision. There's plenty of ways to balance a character, and we can only wait and see.


I think I'm done with this thread. Too much aggresion going on, and I've had enough.
 
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AkiraGr

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I'm not talking about whether a change is going to happen. I'm talking about how it's going to happen, because reporting on a problem isn't the same as actively analyzing a problem and what it entails. How do you think they are going to go by "fixing" Bayonetta and how do you think they are going to figure it out the best way possible? Because rushing a change is going to be ridiculously short-sighted and they never push out a patch for the sake of one character unless it is to fix a very erroneous issue with them (Diddy Kong was subject to this, arguably twice). It is most likely going to take some time because they account for everyone in these patches.

Yeah, I can see them nerfing Witch Twist hitboxes, Divekick safety and some landing lag. That doesn't change how on a fundamental level it's her options that were specifically made to accommodate heavy damage racking which is hard to "fix". That's my only real problem with this insistence of saying "don't worry guys, the patch will fix everything and we won't talk any more about this". Because we don't know it will. I think talking about how to fix Bayonetta design-wise would be good but the issue is we don't know if that's what the designers will take heed of. It's best if we just stop pretending that we know for a fact that they will save us from a broad issue.
He do not care about fixing Bayonetta, he wants the character destroyed or banned. Also Bayonetta do not have any issues like pre patch Zero Suit Samus or Sheik which by the way she is the most safe character to use in the game. Sheik's frame data are ridiculous but in the last update she was nerfed hard because of her options like down throw - upair now for 50% success became 33% and needs to bait more. But the serious issue about her never fixed which are her insane safe landing lag in all her moves. Plus nerfed her neutral game with needles which was overpowering heavy characters approach or characters without projectiles. I disagree from a design point of view that they changed her options which are limitless with this frame data, I would prefer if she had bigger landing lag to specific moves like bounce fish or her Uptitl so people won't spam it. Again she is the best character in the game because of her options which was brought forward by amazing players like Mr. R and ZeRo.

I believe more players will come forward with new characters strategies as the game meta moves forward and the patches stopped. Megaman, Pacman, Bowser, Robin, Corrin, Cloud have amazing tools even DuckHunt Duo which are the best character for neutral game is viable for tournaments but noone use them because they like rush down characters rather than camping in neutral game. Smash 4 has amazing variety of play styles and strategies and we are here now asking for bans and nerfs rather than exploring the games meta... SMH
 

Muster

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Comparing Ryu's skill floor with Bayonetta is... wrong.
Bayonetta is much easier to use than Ryu is. I'd say the ease of use rivals Mario and Cloud.
"Greward, what do you want to do tonight?"
"The same thing we do every night, bud. Try and get Bayonetta banned all over the world."
Your real intentions have come forth!
He didn't lose because he didn't play any good Bayonetta's yet, he is not participating tournaments because of his health, in my opinion he just chicken out because of the new characters strategies and he do not know the meta after the Sheik nerf.
This is a bold claim indeed, But not entirely impossible. I guess we'll see once he eventually does come back.

Ever since i saw zero's initial Bayonetta impressions video, i've always felt that he doesn't quite "get" Bayonetta.
4.) Why is there fear mongering over the potential of a character being as dominant as "Brawl MK" or "Brawl IC". The only thing she has really going for her is an insane punish game which makes her like ZSS on steroids. But her frame data is severely lacking so the only options she really has out of shield is Witch Time or Witch twist. Is playing passive that frowned upon?

I'm just curious as to the other sides to this argument as opposed to mines.
I believe a large part of this is simply a result of her being new+ZeRo's video on her being toxic+people still being salty about the ballot

That's just my personal theory, it may just be that people think she's that bad to play against, worse even than matchups with sonic, sheik, or rosalina (I've never personally had issues with this "toxic" matchup with bayonetta, it's always been a fun match win or lose)
Bayonetta really is one of the better designed characters in the game for those reasons, in my opinion, and one of the few who got a public developer overview video to cement it. Unlike what many people have said, she really doesn't need to be torn down and built back up, just tweak some of the numbers in the very clearly defined weaknesses she's already supposed to have. Besides that triple jump. Still confused about that.
I do think Bayonetta was designed well with the standard "feels like they're straight out of their game" philosophy that Sakurai has. She's pretty much just as threatening with flashy, optimized combos in smash as she is in her own game.
 
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Xephilon

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Bayo jumps around a lot so most bayo players just tomahawk and most players don't just throw out a grab every time they dash in. It's not about whether or not she wants to grab, it's when exactly will they grab. If a bayo player goes for an immediate dash in grab 100% of the time it would be stupid. The bayo player has other options like run through shield and pivot grab, pivot tilt, Cancel the initial dash with a jump, or nothing at all.
My bad, I guess I was pretty vague on my description. Ok so...

If a Bayo tries to tomahawk, they eat a fast OoS option since her grab is pretty slow.

If she tries to go in with Nair, it'll be unsafe and can get punished.

If she tries ABK, shield beats it. Then its a matter of wait till she lands and punish her lag (implying your character has the speed to do so)

Run through shield wouldnt work since shes pretty slow so most people should be able to punish this is if she tries.

These are just my current experiences in the matter vs my friend/rival who uses Sheik. Some of these I have done to other Bayos in FG so its something. (I know FG isnt the best place to compare but theres only like 4 Bayos in my region)
 

BunbUn129

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Bayonetta's poor design is just another testament to Sakurai's flawed understanding of competitive play. Players who are competitively avid of fighting games don't want long, flow-chart combos; they're looking for interactions. Because that's the idea in the first place: a good fighting game is one full of interactions. Bayonetta shuts down the whole cast in her advantage with highly damaging combos that are very difficult to escape; the minimal interaction with the opponent goes against the design philosophy of a good fighting game.

As a player, I should NEVER be in a situation where I might as well just put down the controller for the same outcome. If a player doesn't SDI the first hit of Witch Twist, that's at least 30% damage, and at most death. If the player gets caught in Witch Time, all they can do is watch as they take massive damage and potentially die. Bayonetta doesn't 0-death with any consistency, and the misconception that she does needs to be put to rest. The issue is that so much of her damage is guaranteed, while the rest of the cast has to go for reads to extend their strings for a similar damage output.

Let's take a look at Melee, a hallmark in the design of fighting games, and video games in general. It's common knowledge that Melee's engine allows for a much more varied and extensive combo game than in Smash 4. What makes Melee's combo-friendly system so intriguing is that the attacker is always forced to interact with their opponent due to DI. Good DI saves you, bad DI kills you. DI can mitigate damage from combos, but it can also create combos that should have never worked if the attacker reads such DI. In Melee, Captain Falcon on Final Destination has certain 0-death combos on Marth that only work given a specific DI from the Marth player. I, and many other players, love the DI mechanic, because it prevents us from just sitting and watching ourselves get helplessly carried across the screen, and it makes combos interactive rather than brain-dead.

This is where Bayonetta's design fails. She's designed around combos, not interactions. People like to say "learn to DI/SDI," but that doesn't have much of an effect overall, and still doesn't solve the core issue with her design. Let me elaborate:

1) DI in Smash 4 simply isn't as strong as it was in Melee (and works a bit differently)
2) Bayonetta's combos are predominantly vertical, which effectively limits the opponent's DI'ing capacity; remember MK and ZSS ladders?

That brings up another point: :4metaknight::4zss:. Call me biased towards my main, but I find it relevant considering we're talking about ladder combos. "No one was really complaining about MK and ZSS, not as much as with Bayonetta. They should learn to DI," is what I see some people saying in Bayonetta's defense. The truth is, MK's and ZSS's ladders weren't as problematic as Bayonetta's. (They still exist, but are much weaker, for those who are still unsure). But why?

:4zss:'s ladder never killed without rage and/or bad DI, and started with a highly punishable grab.

:4metaknight:'s ladder worked at a narrow 5-10% range (or 2% range if you're getting super technical), started with a shield-grabable dash attack, required well-timed fast-falling, and didn't kill if the opponent ended up above Meta Knight due to Shuttle Loop's blindspot. It was also flat-out unreliable and suicidal against ledge-camping opponents.

:4bayonetta:'s ladders start working at 0%, and can be opened with a variety of moves from a frame 4 Witch Twist, an amazing counter, up tilt, down tilt, and After-Burner Kick. Either she KO's you or you take as much as 50% and even more. Given the right circumstances, she can even carry characters off the side. Unlike MK and ZSS, her combo specials do not cause helplessness, meaning such combos are low-risk, insane reward, and most characters won't be able to get down to the ground fast enough to adequately punish her landing lag.

Pre-patch, outside of the 30-40% range, you would fight MK in essentially the same way as you'd fight any other character. Outside of his ladder, MK dealt on average 15-20% in guaranteed damage off combos, and the same applied to ZSS--this meant that outside of their death set-ups, their damage output was on par with the rest of the cast. Such does not apply to Bayonetta. She has potential KO's at any percent, and if she does not KO, then she's landing on average 30-40% in guaranteed damage regardless of your current percentage, which is beyond the overall damage output of everyone else.

Bayonetta is a problem. Whether or not she really is ban-worthy cannot be truly decided as of yet. Personally, I prefer pre-patch Sheik to Bayonetta. Yes, I prefer fighting against a character who hard-countered my main rather than a character with whom my main arguably goes even. And there's a very good reason: players found a way to circumvent Sheik's intended KOing issue; Bayonetta is centered around such overly rewarding set-ups, and is a problem at the core of her design.

Sakurai has proven already that he has a misguided understanding of competitive play, and Bayonetta provides more proof. 1.1.6 (if it does happen) will nerf Bayonetta, but I highly doubt it will solve the heart of the problem. Tell me, how did the nerfs in 1.1.5 affect Bayonetta? In no major way. Witch Twist is one of the best moves in the game, Witch Time is by far the best counter, Heel Slide was already unsafe pre-patch, and her up and forward smashes are still powerful--quite a lot was changed, but it all had little effect because her core gameplay is still the same. Fixing Bayonetta requires Sakurai to completely overhaul her design, and that is highly unlikely.
 
D

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Bayonetta was already nerfed once and it didn't stop people from wanting her banned. You have no way of knowing how much another Bayonetta nerf will affect her or if it'll even be enough. Like I said way back; it took over a year until Sheik got all the appropriate nerfs she deserved despite her intermittently getting them between patches. There's a decent chance the nerfs won't be enough to stop talks about banning her at all.

We have no way of predicting how much is going to change. Can we please stop pretending that we do?
To be fair, that wasn't much of a nerf. She lost a very little amount of kill power on her smash attacks to the point where it's almost irrelevant, and a few extra frames tacked onto the end of a few moves. The nerf did not address the core problems of the character. With that said, you may be right; another nerf may not be enough to get everyone to agree. After all, Sheik had been nerfed a few times prior to 1.1.5 and there were people (not many, but a few) who really were unhappy with the character.

I firmly believe that if Bayo is hit hard enough, much of this fuss will die down. A lot of us like her because we genuinely believe that she is just too good and just not fun to play against. I mean that's how I feel, and yes, I have experience. I'm not just talking out of my ass. I played against a Bayonetta in losers semis yesterday at a local. Said player is not on our PR but he managed to knock out two PR members ranked 4th and 5th among a few other respectable players. I managed to beat the Bayo player 2-1, but once it was over, I didn't even feel like I won. I still felt defeated. (FTR, this is the first time I've beat him in bracket since he's picked up Bayo, before I had only lost to him when I randomly decided to solo main Ganon for a single tourney).

That aside, I need to stress this: as a player, I tend to suffer from tournament nerve. I'm an anxious person by nature. Usually though, I'm able to harness this feeling and use it to fuel my more aggressive play-style and it can benefit me a lot. Towards the end of the set (and for the rest of the tourney), I felt so dull. I wasn't nervous. I wasn't excited. I wasn't even happy to be playing at that point. It just became a "let's get this over with" type of feeling. The only motivation I had to win was that I didn't want to lose to a player who I believe myself to be stronger than. So I won against the Bayo. Yay, I guess? I went on to lose the next set 3-1. I'll admit, there's a 75% chance I would've lost that set anyways, but not for the same reason that I did lose. My momentum just came to a halt and I had no motivation to win. The only word that really describes my mindset is demoralized.

This is why I stand against the character. Even though I outplayed him, I wasn't proud of my win. I wasn't able to play the way I wanted to. I'm a Fox/Falcon main, I love being aggressive and trying to penetrate my opponents defenses. Running in and putting it all on the line. If I run in and do something stupid and lose because of it, at least it was on my terms. That's how I want to play, and against Bayo, I can't do any of that. To beat him, I had to play Cloud, and I had to play LAME. It's not fun for me, it's not fun for the Bayo, and it's not fun for the spectators. Hell, the Bayo player was pissed when he lost! We didn't say a word to each other because we were both upset by the match. If she's nerfed and her weakness become a little bit more exposed, than I do think the community will become more okay with her. There will definitely be a number of players who will stand against her until the end of time, but the more reasonable players will find peace with the character when we stop seeing her as such a force of nature.

I'm not speaking for anyone but myself, but I'm sure there's someone out there who feels the same way.
 

BunbUn129

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To be fair, that wasn't much of a nerf. She lost a very little amount of kill power on her smash attacks to the point where it's almost irrelevant, and a few extra frames tacked onto the end of a few moves. The nerf did not address the core problems of the character. With that said, you may be right; another nerf may not be enough to get everyone to agree. After all, Sheik had been nerfed a few times prior to 1.1.5 and there were people (not many, but a few) who really were unhappy with the character.

I firmly believe that if Bayo is hit hard enough, much of this fuss will die down. A lot of us like her because we genuinely believe that she is just too good and just not fun to play against. I mean that's how I feel, and yes, I have experience. I'm not just talking out of my ***. I played against a Bayonetta in losers semis yesterday at a local. Said player is not on our PR but he managed to knock out two PR members ranked 4th and 5th among a few other respectable players. I managed to beat the Bayo player 2-1, but once it was over, I didn't even feel like I won. I still felt defeated. (FTR, this is the first time I've beat him in bracket since he's picked up Bayo, before I had only lost to him when I randomly decided to solo main Ganon for a single tourney).

That aside, I need to stress this: as a player, I tend to suffer from tournament nerve. I'm an anxious person by nature. Usually though, I'm able to harness this feeling and use it to fuel my more aggressive play-style and it can benefit me a lot. Towards the end of the set (and for the rest of the tourney), I felt so dull. I wasn't nervous. I wasn't excited. I wasn't even happy to be playing at that point. It just became a "let's get this over with" type of feeling. The only motivation I had to win was that I didn't want to lose to a player who I believe myself to be stronger than. So I won against the Bayo. Yay, I guess? I went on to lose the next set 3-1. I'll admit, there's a 75% chance I would've lost that set anyways, but not for the same reason that I did lose. My momentum just came to a halt and I had no motivation to win. The only word that really describes my mindset is demoralized.

This is why I stand against the character. Even though I outplayed him, I wasn't proud of my win. I wasn't able to play the way I wanted to. I'm a Fox/Falcon main, I love being aggressive and trying to penetrate my opponents defenses. Running in and putting it all on the line. If I run in and do something stupid and lose because of it, at least it was on my terms. That's how I want to play, and against Bayo, I can't do any of that. To beat him, I had to play Cloud, and I had to play LAME. It's not fun for me, it's not fun for the Bayo, and it's not fun for the spectators. Hell, the Bayo player was pissed when he lost! We didn't say a word to each other because we were both upset by the match. If she's nerfed and her weakness become a little bit more exposed, than I do think the community will become more okay with her. There will definitely be a number of players who will stand against her until the end of time, but the more reasonable players will find peace with the character when we stop seeing her as such a force of nature.

I'm not speaking for anyone but myself, but I'm sure there's someone out there who feels the same way.
Sorry for nitpicking, but the nerfs to Sheik prior to 1.1.5 meant nothing. They slightly reduced fair's and uair's damage and gave needles a bit more lag. The only notable nerf was to her bair, but it wasn't that strong to begin with (roughly the same strength as Mario's bair). What made Sheik a problem was her down throw 50/50, which negated her one intended weakness, and 1.1.5 finally gave her that weakness.
 
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Appledees

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I believe more players will come forward with new characters strategies as the game meta moves forward and the patches stopped. Megaman, Pacman, Bowser, Robin, Corrin, Cloud have amazing tools even DuckHunt Duo which are the best character for neutral game is viable for tournaments but noone use them because they like rush down characters rather than camping in neutral game. Smash 4 has amazing variety of play styles and strategies and we are here now asking for bans and nerfs rather than exploring the games meta... SMH
The reason characters like Megaman,Pacman,Robin,etc aren't used offten is cause they actually have core fundamental flaws that keeps them from being very viable and strong in the current meta. They obviously have good tools but they still lack the same power as high tiers. Due to this they're really hard to actually use and why use this character over someone obviously much stronger with less effort. It literally has nothing to do with them not being rushdown,aggression or whatever. Also lol at "no one" using Cloud.
 
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Sorry for nitpicking, but the nerfs to Sheik prior to 1.1.5 meant nothing. They slightly reduced fair's damage and gave needles a bit more lag. The only notable nerf was to her bair, but it wasn't that strong to begin with (roughly the same strength as Mario's bair). What made Sheik a problem was her down throw 50/50, which negated her one intended weakness, and 1.1.5 finally gave her that weakness.
I personally would disagree with that statement (that her nerfs weren't all too notable) but I suppose it's rather subjective. Regardless, in the earlier days of he game, she didn't have as much trouble killing as she did in 1.1.4. I'd still argue that the nerfs Sheik received pre-1.1.5 were more detrimental than the nerfs Bayonetta suffered from 1.1.5 but again, it's very subjective.

Nerfs for reference:
 
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Shaya

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Uhh, a further nitpick but
Bouncing Fish losing 2% altered KGB/Growth significantly reduced it's KO potency, as was the 2% back air nerf.

Like, they were really significant. ZeRo was 0-deathing people with sheik at WiiU release because fair fair fair bair bouncing fish was essentially impossible to recover against (no one would've been seeing that except at the sky house unfortunately), and that was with a bouncing fish that killed like 20% later.

ninja'd.
 
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AkiraGr

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I certainly agree here, Bayonetta is much easier to use than Ryu is. I'd say the ease of use rivals Mario and Cloud.
I did not compare Bayonetta and Ryu in difficulty in learning curve but pointed that both characters use input commands like the hadouken and after burner kick. I hope I got that clear.

Bayonetta's poor design is just another testament to Sakurai's flawed understanding of competitive play. Players who are competitively avid of fighting games don't want long, flow-chart combos; they're looking for interactions. Because that's the idea in the first place: a good fighting game is one full of interactions. Bayonetta shuts down the whole cast in her advantage with highly damaging combos that are very difficult to escape; the minimal interaction with the opponent goes against the design philosophy of a good fighting game.
That's not true. All fighting games have flow charted like Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, Killer Instinct, Tekken, Virtua Fighter. Depending the character of course. Competitive players depending their style could be aggressors or turtles or footsies in general if they prefer. Always depending on the character whom they are playing each fighting game have different mechanics, for example in Guilty Gear Xrd each character could start a barrage in aerial combo which is are very punishable example.


or


As you can see here in this games a simple mistake can cost you half life bar with long flow charted combos aerial or grounded. Bayonetta fighting style is more inline with actual fighting games, like Ryu, in Smash because her games are also like that.

As a player, I should NEVER be in a situation where I might as well just put down the controller for the same outcome. If a player doesn't SDI the first hit of Witch Twist, that's at least 30% damage, and at most death. If the player gets caught in Witch Time, all they can do is watch as they take massive damage and potentially die. Bayonetta doesn't 0-death with any consistency, and the misconception that she does needs to be put to rest. The issue is that so much of her damage is guaranteed, while the rest of the cast has to go for reads to extend their strings for a similar damage output.
I agree with the bolded part. The rest isn't quite true, the combos are not guaranteed. Damage can be avoided with SDI and normal DI also multi hit moves can break witch time or even raise shield during witch time (situational) Upsmash from Sheik, Greninja, Little Mac, Ike and other break witch time and is a very good baiting tool against it because of the moves hit boxes cover a wide range from above to the sides. Also Air Dogde most of her combos can be avoided if you time it right.

True Bayonetta can be a noob killer for those who do not know the game but that's the point if you want to get better you need to learn this stuff and Bayonetta helps new players to get more involved to this advance technics.


Let's take a look at Melee, a hallmark in the design of fighting games, and video games in general. It's common knowledge that Melee's engine allows for a much more varied and extensive combo game than in Smash 4. What makes Melee's combo-friendly system so intriguing is that the attacker is always forced to interact with their opponent due to DI. Good DI saves you, bad DI kills you. DI can mitigate damage from combos, but it can also create combos that should have never worked if the attacker reads such DI. In Melee, Captain Falcon on Final Destination has certain 0-death combos on Marth that only work given a specific DI from the Marth player. I, and many other players, love the DI mechanic, because it prevents us from just sitting and watching ourselves get helplessly carried across the screen, and it makes combos interactive rather than brain-dead.
I disagree, melee is a very bad balanced game, it wasn't made to be played the way the competitive scene made it popular. Hallmark... Ok now I do not want to go that road the discussion let's say we disagree. Great game for it's time but things move forward.

This is where Bayonetta's design fails. She's designed around combos, not interactions. People like to say "learn to DI/SDI," but that doesn't have much of an effect overall, and still doesn't solve the core issue with her design. Let me elaborate:

1) DI in Smash 4 simply isn't as strong as it was in Melee (and works a bit differently)
2) Bayonetta's combos are predominantly vertical, which effectively limits the opponent's DI'ing capacity; remember MK and ZSS ladders?

That brings up another point: :4metaknight::4zss:. Call me biased towards my main, but I find it relevant considering we're talking about ladder combos. "No one was really complaining about MK and ZSS, not as much as with Bayonetta. They should learn to DI," is what I see some people saying in Bayonetta's defense. The truth is, MK's and ZSS's ladders weren't as problematic as Bayonetta's. (They still exist, but are much weaker, for those who are still unsure). But why?

:4zss:'s ladder never killed without rage and/or bad DI, and started with a highly punishable grab.

:4metaknight:'s ladder worked at a narrow 5-10% range (or 2% range if you're getting super technical), started with a shield-grabable dash attack, required well-timed fast-falling, and didn't kill if the opponent ended up above Meta Knight due to Shuttle Loop's blindspot. It was also flat-out unreliable and suicidal against ledge-camping opponents.

:4bayonetta:'s ladders start working at 0%, and can be opened with a variety of moves from a frame 4 Witch Twist, an amazing counter, up tilt, down tilt, and After-Burner Kick. Either she KO's you or you take as much as 50% and even more. Given the right circumstances, she can even carry characters off the side. Unlike MK and ZSS, her combo specials do not cause helplessness, meaning such combos are low-risk, insane reward, and most characters won't be able to get down to the ground fast enough to adequately punish her landing lag.

Pre-patch, outside of the 30-40% range, you would fight MK in essentially the same way as you'd fight any other character. Outside of his ladder, MK dealt on average 15-20% in guaranteed damage off combos, and the same applied to ZSS--this meant that outside of their death set-ups, their damage output was on par with the rest of the cast. Such does not apply to Bayonetta. She has potential KO's at any percent, and if she does not KO, then she's landing on average 30-40% in guaranteed damage regardless of your current percentage, which is beyond the overall damage output of everyone else.

Bayonetta is a problem. Whether or not she really is ban-worthy cannot be truly decided as of yet. Personally, I prefer pre-patch Sheik to Bayonetta. Yes, I prefer fighting against a character who hard-countered my main rather than a character with whom my main arguably goes even. And there's a very good reason: players found a way to circumvent Sheik's intended KOing issue; Bayonetta is centered around such overly rewarding set-ups, and is a problem at the core of her design.

Sakurai has proven already that he has a misguided understanding of competitive play, and Bayonetta provides more proof. 1.1.6 (if it does happen) will nerf Bayonetta, but I highly doubt it will solve the heart of the problem. Tell me, how did the nerfs in 1.1.5 affect Bayonetta? In no major way. Witch Twist is one of the best moves in the game, Witch Time is by far the best counter, Heel Slide was already unsafe pre-patch, and her up and forward smashes are still powerful--quite a lot was changed, but it all had little effect because her core gameplay is still the same. Fixing Bayonetta requires Sakurai to completely overhaul her design, and that is highly unlikely.
Great analysis but you forget to state specific variables that affects most of the stuff you are saying. Each character have specific gimmicks that makes their gameplay very different. You speak for ladder combos about ZSS and MK but the frame data from this characters allow quick movement, auto cancel their aerial attacks so better chance for reads, combo from grabs and MK has 4 jumps to his Upair with a hit box of 6 frames and auto cancel at 1 frame... My god if you can not combo strike with this stats then you better stop playing the game.

Bayonetta's frames are TERRIBLE, no priority in her smash attacks and cannot even stop a grap with her jab attack (9 FRAMES start up) you have to read if your opponent with grap you. Terrible landing lag in all of the aerials, punishable on defense. She has serious weakness especially in neutral game. She is a rushdown killer as stated in previous posts and a noob destroyer. So rather than getting better you all prefer an nerf or a ban.

I liked your analytical thinking though.
 
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Shaya

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Re: ICs and Bayonetta comparisons.
Yes, there are not literal comparisons to be made. Although I've been willing to fill some gaps, I don't claim Bayonetta as another ICs in that sense but rather a mixture of "theory that may take years to bring about" "lack of results" "reasons to be unpopular" and "impact on the psyche of players both using and fighting against her" that have communal and social consequences.

Great analysis but you forget to state specific variables that affects most of the stuff you are saying. Each character have specific gimmicks that makes their gameplay very different. You speak for ladder combos about ZSS and MK but the frame data from this characters allow quick movement, auto cancel their aerial attacks so better chance for reads, combo from grabs and MK has 4 jumps to his Upair with a hit box of 6 frames and auto cancel at 1 frame... My god if you can not combo strike with this stats then you better stop playing the game.

Bayonetta's frames are TERRIBLE, no priority in her smash attacks and cannot even stop a grap with her jab attack (9 FRAMES start up) you have to read if your opponent with grap you. Terrible landing lag in all of the aerials, punishable on defense. She has serious weakness especially in neutral game. She is a rushdown killer as stated in previous posts and a noob destroyer. So rather than getting better you all prefer an nerf or a ban.

I liked your analytical thinking though.
Everything in bold is explicitly wrong (possibly a miscommunication), and everything underlined is absurd for you to argue with
Her "priority" is one that causes clanks no matter what the opposing attack's strength is; that is a type of priority and priority in Smash in general is more of an interaction of hurtbox/attack hitbox than anything else, in which case those moves being disjointed makes them have exceptional priority but with mild counter play.
Bayonetta may have below average start up for a melee character, but she has fantastic end lag frames and still fantastic start up on moves (compared to others in the cast) for their range and follow up potential.

Every character in the game is punishable on defense, and not many characters have 'easy' neutrals, and to say she has serious weaknesses in her neutral game would be insinuating other (actually every) characters don't have such serious weaknesses, which they do.
 
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OFY

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What happened to the days when we learned how to counter a character, instead of outright banning them? Metaknight in Brawl was at a huge advantage against the rest of the cast, everyone knows that, but as the metagame progressed the community started to figure out how to effectively deal with him as time went on (think Marth's chain grab release). I believe it will be similar with Sm4sh's metagame and given that this is a evolving game (patches) a ban on bayonetta shouldn't have even been brought up this early especially imo.
 
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What happened to the days when we learned how to counter a character, instead of outright banning them? Metaknight in Brawl was at a huge advantage against the rest of the cast, everyone knows that, but as the metagame progressed the community started to figure out how to effectively deal with him as time went on (think Marth's chain grab release). I believe it will be similar with Sm4sh's metagame and given that this is a evolving game (patches) a ban on bayonetta shouldn't have even been brought up this early especially imo.
I would urge you to read my post a few responses back (like 5 paragraphs or so just up the page) if you want to know why a lot of people stand against the character. Also wanted to mention that 90% of people who are pro-ban are only taking that stance should there be no future patches. If there's a patch, I'm sure several people will come to terms with the character and we can get past this silliness.
 

AkiraGr

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Re: ICs and Bayonetta comparisons.
Yes, there are not literal comparisons to be made. Although I've been willing to fill some gaps, I don't claim Bayonetta as another ICs in that sense but rather a mixture of "theory that may take years to bring about" "lack of results" "reasons to be unpopular" and "impact on the psyche of players both using and fighting against her" that have communal and social consequences.
I agree.


Everything in bold is explicitly wrong (possibly a miscommunication), and everything underlined is absurd for you to argue with
Her "priority" is one that causes clanks no matter what the opposing attack's strength is; that is a type of priority and priority in Smash in general is more of an interaction of hurtbox/attack hitbox than anything else, in which case those moves being disjointed makes them have exceptional priority but with mild counter play.
Bayonetta may have below average start up for a melee character, but she has fantastic end lag frames and still fantastic start up on moves (compared to others in the cast) for their range and follow up potential.
Autocancel Aerials only. Frames during which the character can land without the aerial move's landing lag. (They will instead suffer normal jump landing lag.)

I go about that definition for example:

Nair of MK has 1-5 frames of end lag when he hit you, depending your hit stun he can follow up as a combo with another Nair which starts in 6 frames or and Ftilt again in 6 frames. So this is how I understand it maybe I am wrong but most frame data in movesets in fighting games that's how they work.

Also priority comes with active hit box in general in the moves of the character, you are correct disjointed attacks always have priority BUT in case of Bayonetta's wicked weaves Priority do not apply because the hit box of the weaked weaves react as normal hit box and not a disjoint hit box. Example Greninja Fair have priority if Bayonetta's Fair hit in the Air or in the ground because the water sword hit box it is disjoint. Same principle should apply on the wicked weaves but it is not. Wicked Weaves clank even with normal hit boxes like jabs or multi hit strikes. So Wicked Weaves do not work as a disjoint hitbox.

Fantastic ending lag??? Bayonetta??? Her most quick recovery is her first jab which is 28 frames ending lag... Are you sure about that?

Every character in the game is punishable on defense, and not many characters have 'easy' neutrals, and to say she has serious weaknesses in her neutral game would be insinuating other (actually every) characters don't have such serious weaknesses, which they do.
Sorry frame data states otherwise we disagree on that. Check the frame data here

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Sheik

This character is untouchable in the right hands. Which we have plenty examples.
 

Charoite

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Bayonetta design is not focused on combos, her design is akin to her games but at high difficulty setting(the most difficult setting is named "CLIMAX"), this is why she have below average neutral game, but very good advantage, now is supposed that her disadvantage need to be bad : example her bad rolls, and her bad airdodge outside of bat within, the accumulated lag when she use to many specials, her counter being bad when whiffed(a whiffed witch time reduces drastically his usefulness unless the opponent is at very high percents).

But thanks to her combos startes be very good recoveries(good distance and very hard to trade, or punish, and how she can use the ledge to cut her landing lag, she is not punished enough for their mistakes(that is why she is a top tier character).

i dont saying that she is broke but she can be adjusted, like :4sheik:, who prepatch had excellent neutral, excellent disadvantage state and above average advantage state, thanks to her 50/50 kill setups.

So yes bayo is can be adjusted, but we need time to see what part of her moveset is negating this weakness at least partially

Remember when initially sheik needles and fair were the overturned tools, and like 4 or 6 months later we realized the 50/50 is what was invalidating her intended weakness ie: she is supposed to have hard time getting kills outside of reads.

Of course we need more data, that 2 months becuase she would hit too hard or not getting hit where it matters. IMO
 

Muster

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I did not compare Bayonetta and Ryu in difficulty in learning curve but pointed that both characters use input commands like the hadouken and after burner kick. I hope I got that clear.
That was my bad, sorry.
(also it says you quoted me more but i think it was some other dude who's quote you were using.)

Smash in general is more of an interaction of hurtbox/attack hitbox than anything else, in which case those moves being disjointed makes them have exceptional priority but with mild counter play.
.
You may want to talk to @KuroganeHammer about that, all the data for Bayonetta's smash attacks have (low priority) right next to them. on the website
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Bayonetta

Feels relevant.
from losing 3-2 with donkey kong to winning 3-1 with bayonetta, That character switch did him good.

Ironically, Mew2king put up a better fight earlier but was eliminated in loser's finals by ryo.
 
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Ghidorah14

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The comments are unsurprisingly buried in salt.

I hope this community quickly moves past the whole notion of characters carrying players. It's like "yeah, no **** if you pick a top tier, you're more likely to do better than if you picked a mid tier/lowtier." Thats the same as saying sheik and ZSS carry players. Its a pointless argument because the characters are literally our tools for war.

Gotta love how desperate people are to call our riot for it. Someone actually cited his 2 SDs as evidence of him being trash.

Because top players never SD, right?
 

Scribe

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Alrighty, so I'm going to have to explain how priority works, aren't I? SmashWiki covers it better here, but I'll summarize

Basically, if two hitboxes collide, or trade, if the difference in damage values is 9 or less, they will clank. If it's greater than 9, the more damaging hitbox takes priority and instead passes through and can go straight to the character's hurtbox. However aerial moves will always go through (If it's against a grounded move that would take priority or against another aerial move, both will go through), as will moves with transcendent priority (If it's against a non-transcendent move, it will always take priority. If it's against a transcendent move, both will go through uninterrupted). The reason why disjointed moves are considered to have "high priority" is because even if a hitbox with high enough damage to pass through, it might not make it to the character's hurtbox.

If you interrupt an opponent's move animation, whether they are in the move's startup, active, or ending frames, this is called a counterhit. Unlike in traditional fighters, where some moves have special properties on counterhit, counterhits don't do anything special in Smash.

All in all, priority in Smash is based on a combination of damage - specifically the difference in damage values between two hitboxes, frame data - or how quickly the move comes out, and hitbox size and positioning - or how likely the move is to make contact with the opponent's hurtbox and score a counterhit should it take priority. Moves with a short startup and relatively high damage output are considered high priority, while moves with slow startup and/or relatively low damage are considered low priority.

Bayonetta's smash attacks seem to have a special property that functions as the opposite of Transcendence. Rather than always taking priority, they rarely, if ever, take priority, and, from what I've been hearing, will usually, if not always, clank if they trade with another move.
 
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bc1910

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I think the priority applied to Bayo's smash attacks is akin to the priority applied to thrown items, where they clank with any hitbox.

Uhh, a further nitpick but
Bouncing Fish losing 2% significantly reduced it's KO potency, as was the 2% back air nerf.

Like, they were really significant. ZeRo was 0-deathing people with sheik at WiiU release because fair fair fair bair bouncing fish was essentially impossible to recover against (no one would've been seeing that except at the sky house unfortunately), and that was with a bouncing fish that killed like 20% later.

ninja'd.
I hate to nitpick a nitpicker, but Bouncing Fish has always done 12% damage.
 
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