Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments

[Spatman]

Never banned any other character in smash. Our only other ban in FGC (as far as I know) was Kokonoe from BlazBlue on release.

Bayonetta is not being as problematic in USA than she is everywhere. As I said before, look at Japan.
It's mainly because the god players aren't playing her. TBH pink fresh went from not doing anything impressive at Xanadus to winning them extremely easy and being a major tournament threat. Tyroy, Salem, Saj and probably more I'm not even aware of have done something similar.

This is either because she's broken or it's coincidence.

Sorry for not answering before, I got so many notifications atm it's crazy lol

Maybe she simply is his character (and pinkfresh was an interesting player also before, not at the same level though).
At the same way we could say "ZeRo wouldn't have won anything if he wouldn't pick diddy and then sheik"

Spanish community say us that Bayo is an autowin. I don't think it's the case (pound vi is an example) but even if it was the case, now it's simply too early to do something as a ban. And the only effect of the ban will be the inevitable fall of Spain in competitive scene.

In other countries strongest players are able to manage the mu with bayo. Why shouldn't spanish top players do the same? You said in other countries the best players didn't pick Bayo yet and for this reason she isn't yet an overwhelmingly force. It means that its't true that bayo is an autowin! She is really strong, just that. And so an interesting but until now not top player like pink fresh is a threat but doesn't win majors.
In spain instead it seems that mid level player can win nationals because carried by bayonetta. So the possibilities are two:
1) bayo is the perfect character for these players, their true main they were waiting for. And so it's only right they become a threat only now. Even Nairo became much more threatening after he left robin and picked zss
2) in spain the top players aren't able to adapt and aren't so stronger than the remaining community

Both these possibilities make me thinking that the real reason Spain bans Bayonetta is because the until now top players don't want risk to lose their feud. So they change the rules to keep on winning.
This isn't the way a competitive community playing a competitive game behaves

 

[Turokman5896]

I'm going to be frank here. Smash 4 players need to take a page out of the FGC's book and get over this. In fighting games, some characters will simply be better than others. Regardless of whether bayo is actually OP or dominates results (not like shiek or diddy ever did right?) is irrelevant. Unless bayonetta is so strong that the only viable choice is bayonetta than deal with it. Players have had to deal with O. Sagat, Vanilla Sagat, AE 2012 Yun, Zato 1, and of course, brawl MK. So if spain wants to cripple themselves when traveling to other nations fine, but I am begging other regions to take Sirlin's approach

"Only in the most extreme, rare cases should something be banned because it is “too good.” This will be the most common type of ban requested by players, and almost all of their requests will be foolish. Banning a tactic simply because it is “the best” isn’t even warranted. That only reduces the game to all the “second best” tactics, which isn’t necessarily any better of a game than the original game. In fact, it’s often worse!

The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics."

 

[Greward]

Maybe she simply is his character (and pinkfresh was an interesting player also before, not at the same level though).
At the same way we could say "ZeRo wouldn't have won anything if he wouldn't pick diddy and then sheik"

Spanish community say us that Bayo is an autowin. I don't think it's the case (pound vi is an example) but even if it was the case, now it's simply too early to do something as a ban. And the only effect of the ban will be the inevitable fall of Spain in competitive scene.

In other countries strongest players are able to manage the mu with bayo. Why shouldn't spanish top players do the same? You said in other countries the best players didn't pick Bayo yet and for this reason she isn't yet an overwhelmingly force. It means that its't true that bayo is an autowin! She is really strong, just that. And so an interesting but until now not top player like pink fresh is a threat but doesn't win majors.
In spain instead it seems that mid level player can win nationals because carried by bayonetta. So the possibilities are two:
1) bayo is the perfect character for these players, their true main they were waiting for. And so it's only right they become a threat only now. Even Nairo became much more threatening after he left robin and picked zss
2) in spain the top players aren't able to adapt and aren't so stronger than the remaining community

Both these possibilities make me thinking that the real reason Spain bans Bayonetta is because the until now top players don't want risk to lose their feud. So they change the rules to keep on winning.
This isn't the way a competitive community playing a competitive game behaves

We're just doing what we believe is the right path for our game.
If that puts us in an unfavourable position, we will deal with it. Besides why would we go out of Spain when everyone will want to come here to avoid Bayonetta lol (this is a joke btw)
Still we believe Bayonetta is either going to be hard nerfed or banned worldwide in not much time, so we're not that afraid of this.

Even our bayonetta players believe she has to be banned, I guess this speaks for itself.

 

[Turokman5896]

We're just doing what we believe is the right path for our game.
If that puts us in an unfavourable position, we will deal with it. Besides why would we go out of Spain when everyone will want to come here to avoid Bayonetta lol (this is a joke btw)
Still we believe Bayonetta is either going to be hard nerfed or banned worldwide in not much time, so we're not that afraid of this.

Even our bayonetta players believe she has to be banned, I guess this speaks for itself.

how many nationals has bayonetta won in Spain?

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Still we believe Bayonetta is either going to be hard nerfed or banned worldwide in not much time, so we're not that afraid of this.

Can't say I didn't see this comment coming.
There is a heavy lack of proof for Bayonetta being OP.

 

[Funbot28]

I just would like to reassure everyone that we have no idea if patches will still continue to come periodically (as I believe 1.15 exited to fix glitches and bugs, in which they took this opportunity to place nerfs/buffs). So we must keep this in mind since the game has practically finished development.

 

[Greda]

After reading the more recent replies to this thread and actually seeing how a ban is still being considered, I can say I'm done. I'm still in disbelief over how this is happening.

I can't believe I'm part of a community that lives and breathes over the competitive aspect of smash that deals with researching and understanding the game and its characters, yet in that same notion utterly fails to attempt to understand and solve real issues and barriers, or at the very least backs up claims by providing evidence through research, but instead resorts to restricting actual components of the game just because no one wanted to try.

Godspeed to you all.

 

[Greward]

how many nationals has bayonetta won in Spain?

The only one we had since her release.

 

[Turokman5896]

After reading the more recent replies to this thread and actually seeing how a ban is still being considered, I can say I'm done. I'm still in disbelief over how this is happening.

I can't believe I'm part of a community that lives and breathes over the competitive aspect of smash that deals with researching and understanding the game and its characters, yet in that same notion utterly fails to attempt to understand and solve real issues and barriers, or at the very least backs up claims by providing evidence through research, but instead resorts to restricting actual components of the game just because no one wanted to try.

Godspeed to you all.

I have been in and out regarding following smash and honestly, I think I'm done too. I'll still watch, but all this drama is driving me nuts. She won one national and now she is banned in an entire country. **** it, I'm out.

 

[Greward]

As I stated before, we're not banning her because of results.
She hardly has any, it's only been 2 months.

 

[Shaya]

Good morning, this thread has exploded over night and I would like to catch up with it properly because it has taken an unfortunate turn for the worse.

I'll re-open it when I'm up to date....
But the folks who can't stay above a certain line of intelligibility, respectfulness or whatever floats my boat (sorry, but I'd rather a sane thread and I'm more than willing to pop people for it); something something.

See you soon >_>

 

[Shaya]

Ughh, sigh.
I know the course this thread is set on. I know that for every hour I'm not here the thread is going to devolve further and further, and even if I am here it will follow that path albeit it slower.
But there's at least a sizable number of people willing to discuss things on both sides reasonably.

I'll highlight again that this thread is more about the "news" of her legality, more so whether or not you have a low/mid/high level opinion on her power level.
I can't stress this enough, even if the latter is explicitly intertwined within the dialogue.

I think it would be nice if the conversation continued to move forward, and it's possible, if the people already here refuse to go back whenever a new person comes along (who probably hasn't read the thread and thinks being a vitriolic prick is appropriate or the standard) to **** things up.
If folks want to bring together the base ideas ("perspectives") without the belittlement or vitriol, then that's where the thread will be and anything that detracts from it will get blown up.

It's possible to argue and discuss why without calling people out for being scrubs.
It's really tough to explain a smasher perspective that comes from experiencing the impact of Ice Climbers on the game to those who haven't experienced them - as neutralish as I am on Bayonetta, my position of supporting any region which has overwhelming support within for a ban is justified by that experience.

Those who want to just complain... that'll probably be hit for spam.
For those who want to be abrasive and unreasonable towards any person, ideology or scene, they'll probably find themselves flamed away.
For the fallacy lovers which are so easy to disrupt conversation with, I'd like if others would be more apt at avoiding falling for the traps (but if they're incessant it will be dealt with too).

Assuming infractions are going to be needed to keep this thread sane on a regular basis, this will be moved to the competitive section, this is because the section has a specific 3 point ban system compared to the rest of the site's 6. It'll make it a lot easier to keep it sane in this case and that will be one of the two next actions I take depending on where things go from here.

sighhhhhhhh

 

[SoccerStar9001]

As I stated before, we're not banning her because of results.
She hardly has any, it's only been 2 months.

Why then?
Because she is god tier?
Because Pink Fresh is going somewhere?
Because you guys don't like fighting her?
Please answer me. :-(

It is crazy that Spain actually banned a two months old character. I hope they will come back to their senses and lift the ban later, she doesn't deserve it imo.

 

[Buddhahobo]

Please answer me. :-(

To be fair, he answered these questions in the post you quoted from a page back, and the part you just quoted from:

As I stated before, we're not banning her because of results.
She hardly has any, it's only been 2 months.

It's not about the top players or who wins tournaments, but if say seed 50 player loses to seed 60 player who plays bayonetta, he will be utter mad, complain about the character, and so on. Specially if you die from 0 death combos. Since bayonetta is agreed to be absurdly broken here, this player won't ever want to play against her, and he will have a "legit" john of why he lost.
I'm not sure I phrased the above correctly but whatever

The concept of bayonetta being broken and unfair is what will tear apart the community at the mid/low level players. At top level playing against Bayonetta is actually fun, since you are playing something super unfair that you have to overcome, and getting a stock off her is so damn crowdpleasing that it's worth it.

If that is what the Spanish Scene feels it needs for the Spanish Smash scene to continue, then that is what is needed for the Spanish Smash scene to continue. There can be no arguing on this front, as it's an internal matter.

Knowing the reasons for the ban, which Greward has generously gone out of his way to present to not just us but an assortment of people on a variety of sites, is vital for us in other scenes, as Spain banning the character will most certainly cause people attempting to turn it into a cascading effect.

The hope is that in these other regions, cooler heads and data will prevail, not the loudest factions with the angriest zeal using Spain as justification for any particular assertion that isn't what Greward has told us.

 

[Greward]

Why then?
Because she is god tier?
Because Pink Fresh is going somewhere?
Because you guys don't like fighting her?
Please answer me. :-(

It is crazy that Spain actually banned a two months old character. I hope they will come back to their senses and lift the ban later, she doesn't deserve it imo.

Her being god tier (in our opinion) is a reason.
Pink fresh isn't a reason.
How much we like her is not a reason.

There has been faster bans than this. See Mega Rayquaza in Smogon, he was banned from Ubers (the "banned pokemons" tier) before he even got released. Pokemon comparisions are bad though, they are very different games.

The main reasons we ban her are:
1. The community wants her banned, and it's menacing for both the growth and stability of our scene to keep her allowed.
2. She's overpowered (or at least we believe so) notably more than any other character that has existed in this game, essentially over the maximum allowed.

That's it. As I stated before, the main reason is the first one, and she is really a problem in our community.

I feel like I'm saying the same every time I post. I might go away from this thread very soon.

 

[Respect38]

If we're not going to agree that a character should be banned when >80% of the community agrees on the ban, then what will it take? 90%? 95%? 99%? Until everyone but the Bayonetta mains agree?

It's also of worthy note that, when talking about the overpoweredness of Bayonetta--or any character, really--you can't just consider your on-paper of what the highest level of the game should put Bayonetta [even though that's how we build tier lists], we have to consider what impact they have on mid-level and low-level of play. If a character carries players in low-level or mid-level environments, then that's cancerous to the growth of the game, even if they are balanced at the high-level of play. [and this is especially the case if the means of dominating low-level and mid-level of play relies on the kind of ICs-level **** that Bayonetta can pull off with her to-the-ceiling combos]

 

[Balgorxz]

Her being god tier (in our opinion) is a reason.
Pink fresh isn't a reason.
How much we like her is not a reason.

There has been faster bans than this. See Mega Rayquaza in Smogon, he was banned from Ubers (the "banned pokemons" tier) before he even got released. Pokemon comparisions are bad though, they are very different games.

The main reasons we ban her are:
1. The community wants her banned, and it's menacing for both the growth and stability of our scene to keep her allowed.
2. She's overpowered (or at least we believe so) notably more than any other character that has existed in this game, essentially over the maximum allowed.

That's it. As I stated before, the main reason is the first one, and she is really a problem in our community.

I feel like I'm saying the same every time I post. I might go away from this thread very soon.

yeah It's the same argument for customs and miis, the community is the one that should decide on what is healthy for the community.
If as an organization, you realized that bayonetta should not be allowed because the players don't want her, then there is no reason for you guys to give explainations to the international community, I'm glad you guys care about your players even when other groups are trying to force other opinions into you

 

[HeavyLobster]

I have to admit the clip they used as justification was pretty scary. I understand what's wrong with her for the scene, but I can't really get behind a ban this early. Either way I can't see her not getting patched now, I'm guessing before EVO at least, and ultimately that's how this is going to be resolved. Really I'm concerned that this kind of ban will encourage the wrong mindset within the community.

 

[Buddhahobo]

Assuming infractions are going to be needed to keep this thread sane on a regular basis, this will be moved to the competitive section, this is because the section has a specific 3 point ban system compared to the rest of the site's 6. It'll make it a lot easier to keep it sane in this case and that will be one of the two next actions I take depending on where things go from here.

I think I'm misreading this section here. Is it being moved to the competitive scene something you are doing, or something that you may do depending on how things continue?

I originally read it as the former, but considering how it hasn't been moved yet, I assume it's the latter?

I feel like I'm saying the same every time I post. I might go away from this thread very soon.

You've made your point simply and plainly in select posts all ready, such as the two I quoted.

By all means, please quote or link to my post or to what you've already written to make responding to repeated questions easier.

Rewriting the same thing out over and over again is incredibly tiring, but luckily it's something the forum structure can easily alleviate.

I thank you for your time, regardless.

If we're not going to agree that a character should be banned when >80% of the community agrees on the ban, then what will it take? 90%? 95%? 99%? Until everyone but the Bayonetta mains agree?

To play devil's advocate, 80% is of the people who voted, which is then being extrapolated to be the will of the whole scene.

That's sort of the thing with percentages and not knowing the gross numbers, and visa versa. 80% sounds huge until you know it's only actually 4 people. 10,000 people sounds huge until you know it's only ~3.25% of the population you're looking at.

 

[Pazda]

Meta Knight is infinitely better than Bayonetta.

Those matchups aren't as difficult as you make them out to be. Try punishing Bayonetta on landing after any of her unsafe stuff and you will see that it's not that tough. Most tournament players, even good players, are playing vs Bayonetta completely wrong even in the highest level tournaments. She's easily punishable every time she goes in the air and uses a special. Hold shield, wait for bayonetta to land, drop shield, dash grab. Repeat.

If she's not going in the air with specials she's near useless. As long as you aren't jumping and play patient, your ground game is stronger.

Umm.. You do realize that her down angled side b is completely safe if it hits shield right? And her nair is very hard to punish. And "sitting in shield" still isn't a great strategy even if there's very few throw combos.

Wobbling is banned for a reason. Witch time is basically wobbling, but much, much easier. Just at Pound, Ranai died at ~30% for a NAIR in neutral against a bayonetta. And there was the infamous MVD banana death. Bayonetta gets a free kill off stupid stuff. Nothing is safe against her. Now this would be okay if it took at least some skill and precision, but no. Even if the bayo misses her witch time, she moves back, has invincibility, and could even bat within to make the witch time even more free. This character is by its very design unfair, and needs to be banned until a future patch. Players that nobody has ever heard of are starting to place well at tournaments they never would have before, just because they're playing bayonetta now. Even Zero, who almost always picks the best character (Diddy then Sheik), refuses to pick her up.

Not to mention the many, many videos of tournament matches that last about 30 seconds due to 2 easy 0-to-deaths without even using witch time. And this is only the first 2 months of her meta. She can only get better from here.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Umm.. You do realize that her down angled side b is completely safe if it hits shield right? And her nair is very hard to punish. And "sitting in shield" still isn't a great strategy even if there's very few throw combos.

She can't divekick again after that though until she lands and incurs landing lag. So it isn't necessarily directly punishable, but it's not safe either.

 

[Pazda]

She can't divekick again after that though until she lands and incurs landing lag. So it isn't necessarily directly punishable, but it's not safe either.

Oh alright I see where you're coming from. But there's still other options for her and even a fast character would require a good read to punish.

 

[Respect38]

Assuming no manipulation from the part of the person reporting the information, getting an 80% result from 130 people at what I presume was taken at the Spanish national tournament in question, that's pretty decisive.

Sure, Spain has already made its decision, so this point is kind of moot, but it does push us to the question of "how many people are you willing to alienate in order to support this character remaining legal?", which is a question that Japan and the EU are likely going to have to be asking themselves soon, as I doubt that America will pick up the initiative here.

And no level of arguing high-level matchups; even if you are right about Bayonetta not being broken [at a high level of play, that is], is going to change whether or not there are people leaving the game due to their experience with this unorthodox matchup in a game that has, so far, been trying to minimize the bull**** such as this.

...and this question will get even more interesting if they nerf Bayonetta, but not in such a way that fixes any of the design choices that make her frustrating to play against. Of course, if more countries go ahead and go through with banning 1.1.5 Bayonetta, we're less likely to end up with a permanent Bayonetta of the same form of bull**** that many communities are tired of.

 

[Captain Farukon]

Im on with the ban, she is game breaking, she is like a Rugal ,so fricking OP it isnt funny , she negates even the very minuscule balance this game has, and those saying that players just have to deal eith her just like SF with Vanilla Sagat, Yun etc etc...yeah but that game is completely different to this besides SF has a lot of balance, every character has a chance to win, here this is not the case

Im glad to see some people care about the smash scene so much to ban bayonetta from tournaments, well done this is a step forward for smash to be seen as a real competive game with the caliber of SF , tekken and such

 

[CreamyFatone]

Ughh, sigh.
I know the course this thread is set on. I know that for every hour I'm not here the thread is going to devolve further and further, and even if I am here it will follow that path albeit it slower.
But there's at least a sizable number of people willing to discuss things on both sides reasonably.

I'll highlight again that this thread is more about the "news" of her legality, more so whether or not you have a low/mid/high level opinion on her power level.
I can't stress this enough, even if the latter is explicitly intertwined within the dialogue.

I think it would be nice if the conversation continued to move forward, and it's possible, if the people already here refuse to go back whenever a new person comes along (who probably hasn't read the thread and thinks being a vitriolic prick is appropriate or the standard) to **** things up.
If folks want to bring together the base ideas ("perspectives") without the belittlement or vitriol, then that's where the thread will be and anything that detracts from it will get blown up.

It's possible to argue and discuss why without calling people out for being scrubs.
It's really tough to explain a smasher perspective that comes from experiencing the impact of Ice Climbers on the game to those who haven't experienced them - as neutralish as I am on Bayonetta, my position of supporting any region which has overwhelming support within for a ban is justified by that experience.

Those who want to just complain... that'll probably be hit for spam.
For those who want to be abrasive and unreasonable towards any person, ideology or scene, they'll probably find themselves flamed away.
For the fallacy lovers which are so easy to disrupt conversation with, I'd like if others would be more apt at avoiding falling for the traps (but if they're incessant it will be dealt with too).

Assuming infractions are going to be needed to keep this thread sane on a regular basis, this will be moved to the competitive section, this is because the section has a specific 3 point ban system compared to the rest of the site's 6. It'll make it a lot easier to keep it sane in this case and that will be one of the two next actions I take depending on where things go from here.

sighhhhhhhh

Don't get me wrong, I know your intentions are noble, but a thread titled "Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments" is going to attract a lot of people who are either for or against the ban and this character, and are uncompromising and are only here to attempt to convince others because it feels good when people agree with you and, in a messed up kind of way, when they disagree with you too. I trust that this is understood intuitively, this isn't the first time we've all been on the internet.

You're right, there are a good portion of people in this thread that are willing to make this a productive discussion and make valid points and remain civil and the thread might be redeemed for that. But the low level discussion you're noticing here that irritates the rest is pretty much inevitable and will not go away, unless moderation makes it so, but it really depends if that's best or not.

If I may be honest, and I think a lot of people already realize this, I think it's just too early to make a decision about Bayonetta because everyone is still waiting to see what happens with her. Do people need more time to figure out the matchup? Is she going to get nerfed in another patch? It seems like the whole controversy itself demands that something happen, and I think it's very likely that she'll get nerfed and this whole discussion about whether to ban her or not will become a non-issue.

 

[AndrewOshawott]

I know everyone is gonna disagree but I believe ALL 3 of the latest DLC characters () should be banned, they are honestly toxic, hard to deal with, and stupid...

 

[Spelt]

If I needed a final reason why I shouldn't give a **** about this game competitively, it's this argument here.

This is pretty much the nail in the coffin for me for why I should never have a legitimate motivation to take this game seriously. The thought of going through 3 years of another debate like this makes me physically ill.

 

[Waluigi is too big]

I am really against the idea of banning things to make games more fun.

Bans never look good from the outside looking in.
Bans make it harder for casuals to transfer to competitive.

 

[Respect38]

This debate isn't going to last very long due to main difference between this game and Brawl: patches.

Either Bayonetta gets a slap on the wrist and so will be banned in most places around the world [else player population will begin to suffer], or Bayonetta will get a nerf hammer/rework and so will not be worthy of a ban any longer.

 

[Seagull Joe]

#1 on our PR is a player named Bestness. Ironic that you are calling my points ad hominem, when literally every one of your points is in fact ad hominem. I haven't seen a signle objective point you've made on why she needs to be banned let alone nerfed. Zero and many other pros have proven time and time again to be biased and have stated that their opinions on bayo are just that, opinions. I have met Ryuga in person and played him in the finals of my bracket at G3. He's a nice guy, but the dude isn't the first person I'd go looking to for opinions on the state of balance in the game. Seagull Joe is also notoriously biased and kind of a **** in real life. Never met ally, but he seems like a troll, (not in a bad way), but I can see him making ban bayo comments as a joke. I seriously doubt he would endorse a ban on the character. I say that Fox beats bayo in neutral just from raw frame data advantage and Falcon beats her because he can just spam grab and get guaranteed knees on her from her fallspeed/weight class. Not to mention that every bayo recovers the same way and a falcon can intercept her side b to stage with a d-air for the kill. Anti removed all the bayo hate from his twitter because he had a realization that it made him look like a fool. Zero came off like a whiny hypocrite in his video and many people have called him out for it. Don't even know who zinoto is lol. Either way, I am approaching the subject through an objective lens and you aren't. I will be on the right side of history here, that much I can assure you. Once people learn the bayo matchup I won't be surprised to see her lose consistently to a variety of characters that just destroy her in neutral. (Diddy, Sheik, cloud) to name a few. So you can continue to dig your head in the sand and stay immune to reason I guess. All we are asking on the pro bayonetta side is any evidence, any at all that a ban is warranted. Opinions mean nothing unless they are backed up by facts. "I don't like playing against her" does not constitute an argument or a ban. "she can kill me off of one move". No she can't if you learn the DI. Yes she has guaranteed kill followups at various percents. Learn them, they all have variations in DI that make them harder to execute. And where was the "ban meta knight" or "ban zss" thread, when they had guaranteed kill confirms that you literally couldn't escape regardless of DI? My smashcorner made a great video explaining how to DI them and execute them. I respect your opinion, obviously you want to see her nerfed, changed and thats fine. All I can say is that in the last patch she did receive some major nerfs to her witch time and a few minor tweeks to everything else. The character revolves around her crazy combo game, thats just part of the design. Take that away and you have a mediocre mid-tier with average frame data and no disjoints, no guaranteed grab followups, etc.

Who the hell are you? Why did I get namedropped? Why am I notoriously biased?

 

[Scribe]

Umm.. You do realize that her down angled side b is completely safe if it hits shield right? And her nair is very hard to punish. And "sitting in shield" still isn't a great strategy even if there's very few throw combos.

Wobbling is banned for a reason. Witch time is basically wobbling, but much, much easier. Just at Pound, Ranai died at ~30% for a NAIR in neutral against a bayonetta. And there was the infamous MVD banana death. Bayonetta gets a free kill off stupid stuff. Nothing is safe against her. Now this would be okay if it took at least some skill and precision, but no. Even if the bayo misses her witch time, she moves back, has invincibility, and could even bat within to make the witch time even more free. This character is by its very design unfair, and needs to be banned until a future patch. Players that nobody has ever heard of are starting to place well at tournaments they never would have before, just because they're playing bayonetta now. Even Zero, who almost always picks the best character (Diddy then Sheik), refuses to pick her up.

Not to mention the many, many videos of tournament matches that last about 30 seconds due to 2 easy 0-to-deaths without even using witch time. And this is only the first 2 months of her meta. She can only get better from here.

First of all, Wobbling isn't banned. Some tournaments force you to kill your opponent after they reach a certain amount of damage instead of using it (or any other infinite for that matter) to stall indefinitely, but it's not banned.

Second of all, it's not just "sitting in shield." It's carefully timing your shield so you bring it up at exactly the right time.

On the matter of Spain, I'll say that this is looking more and more like what happened with SoulCalibur 4. Not only does the issue of Bayonetta very closely mirror that with Algol, but now we have parallels to some of France's arbitrary bans. This is why we need someone (Maybe GIMR? Warchamp?) to step up and be the Mr. Wizard of our community. An individual with enough prestige and influence among the community to step forward and put forth a unified ruleset for the community to follow.

 

[trash?]

bayo is likely a really easy, really efficient top tier, sure. likely even the best in the game, within this version at least

except... that doesn't mean anything. that means she's a top tier, sitting next to a bunch of other top tiers that still happen to be getting similar results. she's not special, she's just the one top tier you don't like, and every fighting game has that. sheik just straight-up invalidates a massive chunk of the cast in melee, entirely through a tactic that's so painlessly simple (chaingrabbing is fun), but the idea that sheik should be banned over it would be laughed out of the building. have you seen vergil in UMvC3? that's a character designed top to bottom to be the easiest top tier in all of videogames, and even then people dealt with him.

also, any attempt for a mod to sugarcoat what this means for spain to interact with those around them is completely ignorant of what competion is to players. no matter how you twist this as "let people enjoy themselves!!!!!!", this is a competitive format, admitting for the world to see that you don't want to deal with something so you're taking your ball and going home isn't very competitive of you. people are naturally going to point out how you're going to push yourself into irrelevancy, and they're going to simply play the tournament format the rest of the world will continue to play

 

[sedrf]

Too many people here judge by feling or by authority on this issue.
Instead we should wait for maybe apex and definitley ceo to dterminne how strong bayo is.
Why?
The possibility of patches
more international representation and metas
adaption of bayo players and people against bayo.

 

[Scribe]

bayo is likely a really easy, really efficient top tier, sure. likely even the best in the game, within this version at least

except... that doesn't mean anything. that means she's a top tier, sitting next to a bunch of other top tiers that still happen to be getting similar results. she's not special, she's just the one top tier you don't like, and every fighting game has that. sheik just straight-up invalidates a massive chunk of the cast in melee, entirely through a tactic that's so painlessly simple (chaingrabbing is fun), but the idea that sheik should be banned over it would be laughed out of the building. have you seen vergil in UMvC3? that's a character designed top to bottom to be the easiest top tier in all of videogames, and even then people dealt with him.

also, any attempt for a mod to sugarcoat what this means for spain to interact with those around them is completely ignorant of what competion is to players. no matter how you twist this as "let people enjoy themselves!!!!!!", this is a competitive format, admitting for the world to see that you don't want to deal with something so you're taking your ball and going home isn't very competitive of you. people are naturally going to point out how you're going to push yourself into irrelevancy, and they're going to simply play the tournament format the rest of the world will continue to play

Also worth noting that, due to Bayo's odd frame data, a lot of her more extensive combos are based around one-frame links, so she isn't quite as easy as people think. This mitigated somewhat by the input buffer, so it is possible to buffer the inputs, but yeah. I've been saying exactly what you've been saying for the past couple of pages - even if something is the best, that doesn't mean that it's ban worthy. There are varying degrees of "the best," ranging from "practically unbeatable at most levels of play" to "Noob killer with better punish game than the rest of the top tiers, but a relatively tame neutral game." Bayonetta falls more into the latter category, with her flashy, anime fighter-esque combos, but limited ranged poke options, average movement, poor frame data on her clank animation, and moves that clank really easily. She does have some good tools in the neutral, mind you, but it's not her strongest area, and I feel like it would be beneficial for future patches to play this up as a weakness, rather than just toning down her strengths.

And if people want to say that Bayo really is unbeatable at low/mid level play and use local results in their argument, I'll point out that the Hudson Valley has seen a Ganondorf and a Palutena not only regularly place better than our local Bayonetta mains, but place better than them in a non-customs environment. Mind you, the Hudson Valley happens have some top notch low-tier mains (The Ganondorf in question apparently had a pretty clutch match with ZeRo once), but it goes to show that it's not just top level players who are besting her.

Spain is putting themselves in the same position that parts of the US did when they banned Meta Knight in Brawl - players from regions that banned him got bopped when traveling to regions that didn't ban him due to their inexperience with the matchup. The same will happen to Spanish players in international tournaments. This is why I honestly oppose regional bans. It's better to have a consistent, unified ruleset among the community, preferably set forth by a central authority figure, like Mr. Wizard does for the rest of the FGC.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

"Told you so" - Spain

When it comes down to it, I think the main problem here is that some people see her as just another character with a neutral game, and regular moves like every other character, etc. whereas the other group of people see her as something else. Something that is different and defies what we know as a smash character based on her design. I think both opinions have truths to them, but I also think that there are a lot of misunderstandings as to what each side believes.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

"Told you so" - Spain

When it comes down to it, I think the main problem here is that some people see her as just another character with a neutral game, and regular moves like every other character, etc. whereas the other group of people see her as something else. Something that is different and defies what we know as a smash character based on her design. I think both opinions have truths to them, but I also think that there are a lot of misunderstandings as to what each side believes.

What happened here is Witch Twist's first hit has high base KB (and chain into weaker hits), with rage the KB become crazy high and it failed to chain into the weaker hits..
This is more about how broken rage is rather than how broken Bayonetta is.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

What happened here is Witch Twist's first hit has high base KB (and chain into weaker hits), with rage the KB become crazy high and it failed to chain into the weaker hits..
This is more about how broken rage is rather than how broken Bayonetta is.

I'm aware of that. Just silly that it happens as soon as Spain bans her. Even as someone who isn't a huge fan of Bayo, I dont think this specific incident it should be held against her as Ike, Roy, Cloud, Rosa, Peach, Mario, and I'm sure a few others have the same exploit in their designs.

 

[DunnoBro]

To me, Bayonetta isn't an issue because she's overpowered, unbeatable, auto-win, or something as vague as "toxic."

She's an issue because there isn't any real consistent way to fight her for the majority of the cast. If the bayo just knows it's strings and fishes for them, most shield pressure, zoning, baits, and honest attempts at neutral just can't consistently beat out her high reward/low risk attempts.

The only way you can consistently beat her start to finish is with big reward and kill confirms off grab and/or projectiles.

A lot of people confuse the fact she has losing or otherwise "scary" matchups as proof she's fine, but honestly it just comes off as the same sentiments people had about pre-patch luigi. It shouldn't be "some characters can fight you and everyone else has maybe a chance" and I don't care about imbalanced as hell games like brawl and melee with imbalanced as hell characters like sheik and ICs. Brawl died and melee lives despite the issues. This is a modern game with a much more finely tuned meta and overall balance. That's why a lot of people play it, so if they want to keep it that way I won't fault them for wanting bayo banned though I'm unsure if that would help or hurt potential changes.

This is more about how broken rage is rather than how broken Bayonetta is.

Not really. If there was more start-up, landing lag, or some sort of actual risk involved with using the move than rage would actually balance something like this out like it does for mario, mk, etc since using it at such high percents and missing = death. But since you can just spam it for free and get free kills like this... I won't claim rage isn't at fault but it's not like he couldn't have died either way.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Not really. If there was more start-up, landing lag, or some sort of actual risk involved with using the move than rage would actually balance something like this out like it does for mario, mk, etc since using it at such high percents and missing = death. But since you can just spam it for free and get free kills like this... I won't claim rage isn't at fault but it's not like he couldn't have died either way.

???????????
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faXnOd-RC7s
How is it Bayonetta's problem?
Using Witch Twist gives a lot of landing lag, 19F+.
Keep in mind, Smash attacks comes out at around 13~22F (DDD 42F xP)

 

[Xpwnage123]

I'm not sure if I can add much to this thread, as it seems to be going in circles, but I'd like to make a small point.

The community is way too quick to jump to conclusions without any evidence of how good a character is. Besides Bayonetta, I main Shulk and Yoshi and the community's proneness to overreaction has really hurt those characters. Remember when everyone though Shulk was high tier? And Yoshi in the top 5? Or how about when Roy came out and everyone thought he was OP? All this does is hurt the characters for no reason; because of the false perceptions about how good they were, they never really got the significant buffs they needed. Roy has been hardly touched, Shulk has been buffed (but not significantly), and Yoshi hasn't been touched (despite having no results, and possibly needing a slight buff). Give the meta some time to develop. If Bayonetta starts constantly winning tournaments and remains unpatched, then we can discuss a nerf.