Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments

[Sha-Shulk]

Okay, so we're in agreement. Don't start an argument just because I'm pointing out, rightfully, that people who want to ban Bayonetta aren't using a shred of logic.

If we're in agreement, why does it seem that some members still like to use exaggerated phraseology that terminates collective and collaborative agreement?

But, to repeat, I do agree with you. And the other members who have used abrasive terms and ill-sighted (not you, actually) words to beat the choir, after preaching to them.

 

[Greward]

You said on reddit you've also asked other Spanish scenes for opinion; out of curiosity, is Virgil banned in whatever Spain has for a UMvC3 scene?

He's not, nothing has ever been banned in UMvC3 scene in Spain.

That doesn't make sense. Banning a character people want to play isn't the same as forcing everyone to play a certain character. One case adds options, the other takes them away.

I mean, your argument was a bit flawed. It was an attack to people who wanted the character banned "weaklings" while just posing your opinion as the right one.
Sometimes you need to ban things to allow freedom.
If bayonetta is allowed, you are forcing people to play her (or lose to worse players that do play bayo), hence banning her is what allows people to play what they want.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

I mean, your argument was a bit flawed. It was an attack to people who wanted the character banned "weaklings" while just posing your opinion as the right one.
Sometimes you need to ban things to allow freedom.
If bayonetta is allowed, you are forcing people to play her (or lose to worse players that do play bayo), hence banning her is what allows people to play what they want.

That makes sense. Why didn't you post that first?

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Bayonetta is basically the of Smash 4, really; except probably even Brawl MK isn't as hilariously polarizing as Bayonetta.

The biggest gripe I have with Bayo's design is that she effectively kills off the competetive viability of a good chunk of the cast by design alone. You can say we can D.I out, but what tournament player doesn't know how to read D.I like a book? That's one of the founding pillars for good placements is having good D.I and good D.I reading skills.

Granted, not all characters are equal...but that doesn't excuse the fact that well-played Bayos are still going to invalidate most other characters based on their tools alone. Even MELEE doesn't have a character that wrecks the metagame to this degree!

Sure, her results aren't off-the-wall, but a number of other characters' results have tanked ever since Bayo released. Who'd ever want to play when is so much better?

No character in a fighting game, at least not one that's legal in tournaments, should invalidate most of the cast. Street Fighter tournaments ban Akuma for this very reason, and even Brawl banned Meta Knight for a while. I think we need to ban Bayonetta; maybe not forever, but long enough for people to calm down and accept that maybe, sometimes, banning the character and letting the metagame be is a better option than introducing a character who's entire design invalidates most others.

Think of it like this; if had the ability to 0-death any large character soley based on a misspaced jab, there'd be grumblings of banning as well. We should never defend a poorly-optimized character just because "they haven't dominated the meta yet". Waiting untill they start dominating the meta is a slippery slope, because people will always claim that their mains aren't dominating the meta in the face of prospective banning even if that main clearly is. Even pre-patch , as obnoxious an MU as he was, was manageable for characters like if they played at their best. is damn-near insurmountable by , or really any other heavy. Their buffs don't mean a damn because nobody sees them anymore because Bayonetta invalidates heavies simply by existing.

Bayonetta has a horribly unbalanced risk-reward ratio; very low risk, very high reward is not how a character should be, especially not one with the tools Bayo has.

EDIT: And remember, Bayo's not been out for that long; she came out in Feburary, so we've only had two months of time with her in the meta. Remember when Zelda was top-tier early on in competetive Melee? Things change with time, and just like how more and more 's began taking tournaments over time, I'm predicting that more and more 's will end up taking tournaments over time.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Sometimes you need to ban things to allow freedom.
If bayonetta is allowed, you are forcing people to play her (or lose to worse players that do play bayo), hence banning her is what allows people to play what they want.

Yeah, I mean, just look at that Pound 2016 domination. She was all over that scene and just steamrolled everybod-

Oh, right. It was actually ABADANGO'S MEWTWO THAT WON.

MEWTWO WON A MAJOR.
AND BAYONETTA DIDNT.

 

[Buddhahobo]

I mean, your argument was a bit flawed. It was an attack to people who wanted the character banned "weaklings" while just posing your opinion as the right one.
Sometimes you need to ban things to allow freedom.

Are you sure you aren't actually French? I've had arguments before with people from there who said nearly the same thing when we were arguing our countries differing stance on the nature of free speech.

Being told that they ban some speech because they value free speech more than the US was an alien feeling.

This was meant to be a humorous anecdote by the way. I'm not actually questioning your nationality.

Is this the first time a ban has been brought up in the Spanish scene? Nothing on Diddy or Sheik?

If bayonetta is allowed, you are forcing people to play her (or lose to worse players that do play bayo), hence banning her is what allows people to play what they want.

Unless it's Bayonetta, the fan voted character.

With worse results than the other top level threats in the game.

Don't get me wrong, theological debate on a website is not going to sway the opinion of the Spanish scene and whatever comes to pass comes to pass, but I'd be lying if I didn't find much of the reasoning outside of the current community reaction (which is, admittedly, the only important one) to ring hollow.

Smash scenes are typically stronger than you seem to be putting it down as; if the US can thrive when 3/4ths of our tournaments were going *customs* for months on end, Bayonetta with your...what, sixth best ranked player?...winning a tournament doesn't say many good things of the stability of your scene as is.

Are there other problems that you're concerned about with regards to Smash 4 in Spain?

 

[Sha-Shulk]

Yeah, I mean, just look at that Pound 2016 domination. She was all over that scene and just steamrolled everybod-

Oh, right. It was actually ABADANGO'S MEWTWO THAT WON.

MEWTWO WON A MAJOR.
AND BAYONETTA DIDNT.

I think he meant it as a general statement.

Of course, it's a double-edged sword of Bayonetta being new to ssb4:

1.She's new, so let the meta develop and evolve!

2.We just haven't seen all the top players develop Bayonetta into ultimate reward/ low risk 0-death machines!

EDIT: Uhhh, +Buddhahobo, I think you meant "theoretical" and not "theological"

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Bayonetta is basically the of Smash 4, really; except probably even Brawl MK isn't as hilariously polarizing as Bayonetta.

The biggest gripe I have with Bayo's design is that she effectively kills off the competetive viability of a good chunk of the cast by design alone. You can say we can D.I out, but what tournament player doesn't know how to read D.I like a book? That's one of the founding pillars for good placements is having good D.I and good D.I reading skills.

Granted, not all characters are equal...but that doesn't excuse the fact that well-played Bayos are still going to invalidate most other characters based on their tools alone. Even MELEE doesn't have a character that wrecks the metagame to this degree!

Sure, her results aren't off-the-wall, but a number of other characters' results have tanked ever since Bayo released. Who'd ever want to play when is so much better?

No character in a fighting game, at least not one that's legal in tournaments, should invalidate most of the cast. Street Fighter tournaments ban Akuma for this very reason, and even Brawl banned Meta Knight for a while. I think we need to ban Bayonetta; maybe not forever, but long enough for people to calm down and accept that maybe, sometimes, banning the character and letting the metagame be is a better option than introducing a character who's entire design invalidates most others.

Think of it like this; if had the ability to 0-death any large character soley based on a misspaced jab, there'd be grumblings of banning as well. We should never defend a poorly-optimized character just because "they haven't dominated the meta yet". Waiting untill they start dominating the meta is a slippery slope, because people will always claim that their mains aren't dominating the meta in the face of prospective banning even if that main clearly is. Even pre-patch , as obnoxious an MU as he was, was manageable for characters like if they played at their best. is damn-near insurmountable by , or really any other heavy. Their buffs don't mean a damn because nobody sees them anymore because Bayonetta invalidates heavies simply by existing.

Bayonetta has a horribly unbalanced risk-reward ratio; very low risk, very high reward is not how a character should be, especially not one with the tools Bayo has.

EDIT: And remember, Bayo's not been out for that long; she came out in Feburary, so we've only had two months of time with her in the meta. Remember when Zelda was top-tier early on in competetive Melee? Things change with time, and just like how more and more 's began taking tournaments over time, I'm predicting that more and more 's will end up taking tournaments over time.

Sorry, but this is pure paranoia.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

Sorry, but this is pure paranoia.

Are you going to explain why?

EDIT: Why do I get the feeling that a lot of people think that Bayonetta isn't that good, yet they decide to main her? is it to develop the meta?

 

[Buddhahobo]

No character in a fighting game, at least not one that's legal in tournaments, should invalidate most of the cast.

Doctor Doom / Magneto / Virgil, yo.

MvC2 as probably the most extreme counter example possible. And that game used to be the FGC scene, frankly.

Sure, her results aren't off-the-wall, but a number of other characters' results have tanked ever since Bayo released. Who'd ever want to play when is so much better?

Because one is an orange fire breathing dragon who smashes rocks with his head. There are other reasons to play Charizard?

That could be said about any top tier character though that came out with the game, though. Why play Shulk when Pre-patched Diddy was so much better? Why play discount disco Ninja Frog when there's Sheik?

EDIT: And remember, Bayo's not been out for that long; she came out in Feburary, so we've only had two months of time with her in the meta.

She has worse results than Cloud in the same time frame, doesn't she? I've heard it stated and anecdotally agree with it, but i haven't fact checked it.

Tweek took out Nairo just afew days after he came out. He also beat Ranai and probably broke the Geneva Convention in his one man Luma genocide that was beating Dabuz at Shots Fired 2. People switch to top characters and do better. It's amazing how that works.

If she's that easy to pick up, that much better than anyone else, why aren't we seeing comparable results and adoption rates?

 

[Flux0r]

Not really surprising but...

There was a problem fetching the tweet

The witch has now been officially banned.

 

[Ijuka]

Sheik's better than Bayonetta so banning Bayonetta makes no sense.

Even with DI reading, you can get out of her death combos. Furthermore, she's very predictable in neutral and if she uses one of her special moves like up B or forward B, she lags so much on landing that you get a free punish every single time. Ban FD vs her, platforms in general make her life much harder as she can be easily punished when she falls on them in massive lag. Nearly everything she does is unsafe and punishable. Witch Time becomes completely worthless after she misses with it twice. After that point, you recover before she does on the next Witch Time.

Bayonetta doesn't invalidate characters nearly as much as Sheik does, or even Cloud and his oppressive neutral. In my opinion, scrubs just love complaining about Bayonetta to make themselves feel better. Give her a try against anyone decent and you'll see the other side of the coin.

Wobbling being okay in Melee just shows how much Smash 4 players love complaining.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

She has worse results than Cloud in the same time frame, doesn't she? I've heard it stated and anecdotally agree with it, but i haven't fact checked it.

Really? That is news to me.
I thought they at least has the close results.

 

[Balgorxz]

the poll options are limited IMO, I think the character is terribly designed and stupid, but not gamebreaking.

This will hurt the players more than the game/meta itself, because one of the flaws of bayonetta unlike sheik or rosalina(brawl MK or even melee fox) is that the players don't feel like they are outplaying the oponent so a lot of top players refuse to switch because they don't feel like they are using their true potential despite doing probably better with bayonetta (I think even zero pointed that out).
I don't think top players will switch to bayonetta for a while unless one of the top players of their region actually switch, something that might not happen unless a good amount of players switch.

Why it hurts the player? Because people that are not used to get results by themselves they will rather go for the easy path.
The people who will switch are the people in the middle,
The thing that is happening right now is that in very small locals or universities the guy who ended in the mid table is currently winning the tournament or ending top3
In 50 man tourneys the guy who ended 25 that switched to bayonetta is now able to reach top8
The carrying effect is also happening in bigger tourneys and you know it well, but it's going to be way less. this will hurt the low and mid tier community was less than the people who attend majors so I think bayonetta is way more dangerous that other problematic characters that we have seen in other smash games, IT'S LIKE HAVING AN ICE CLIMBERS IN SMASH4 BUT WITH LESS FLAWS AND A SUPER EASY WOBBLING, dumb but not broken.

veredict?
banning bayonetta in not ultra competitive countries or regions is a smart option, banning bayonetta in majors is not necessary

 

[Buddhahobo]

Really? That is news to me.
I thought they at least has the close results.

As I immediately said after that, I have not fact checked that statement. It was said by people I have traditionally found to be credible which is why I feel comfortable saying it at all with the obligatory disclaimer, but not fact checked is indeed not fact checked.

 

[Ijuka]

Wobbling allows bad players in low skill tournaments to do well or even win them easily in melee, there are many examples of this happening and this is much more the case for ICs and wobbling in melee than Bayonetta in Smash 4. I don't see this as a problem.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Sorry, but this is pure paranoia.

...do tell how I'm being paranoid when I'm using examples that are not fueled by paranoia?

Oh wait, it's because I main a heavy, isn't it? I'm utterly paranoid because I don't want Bayonetta cutting me out because of her kit, and I'm being self-centered by not thinking of the Bayo mains-wah, wah, wah.

Look, I understand that you, as a Bayo player, think she's fine. BUT that does NOT mean you all have the right to blow people's legitimate worries for the meta as "pure paranoia". If a character has issues, we all should accept that they do and try to reach a conclusion that is healthiest for everyone, not just try and make it all about ourselves.

If Bayonetta invalidates characters (and she does, don't deny that), than it's not exactly fun for the players of those invalidated characters to play competetive Smash, isn't it? Those players might leave, and if Bayo proves to evolve just like Fox did in Melee, who knows how many people might drop the game entirely because of one character overcentralizing the metagame and being incredibly good.

You know who ELSE had their own tier in Smash? . Guess what happened to him?

HE WAS BANNED FOR BEING OVERCENTRALIZING. Nobody should have to put up with running into the same awful MU just because people are crying that "Bayonetta's not broken, she has flaws!"; ignoring that those flaws are hard to actually act upon if she's 0-deathing you anyways because she's reading your D.I, like a competent player does.

Doctor Doom / Magneto / Virgil, yo.

MvC2 as probably the most extreme counter example possible. And that game used to be the FGC scene, frankly.

Granted, but that's comparing apples to oranges at any rate; those characters are imbalanced because of their kit's power when used correctly, not because their tools by themselves would invalidate characters. Give Witch Time and Witch Twist to , and he'd be just as bad as Bayo is. Different situation.

Because one is an orange fire breathing dragon who smashes rocks with his head.

That could be said about any top tier character though that came out with the game, though. Why play Shulk when Pre-patched Diddy was so much better? Why play discount French Ninja Frog when there's Sheik?

Because those MU's arent damn-near unwinnable for those characters? It's hard, yes, but the Shulk/pre-patch Diddy and Greninja/Sheik MU's were never this unbalanced in the favor of one character.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

Doctor Doom / Magneto / Virgil, yo.

MvC2 as probably the most extreme counter example possible. And that game used to be the FGC scene, frankly.



Because one is an orange fire breathing dragon who smashes rocks with his head.

That could be said about any top tier character though that came out with the game, though. Why play Shulk when Pre-patched Diddy was so much better? Why play discount disco Ninja Frog when there's Sheik?



She has worse results than Cloud in the same time frame, doesn't she? I've heard it stated and anecdotally agree with it, but i haven't fact checked it.

Tweek took out Nairo just afew days after he came out. He also beat Ranai and probably broke the Geneva Convention in his one man Luma genocide that was beating Dabuz at Shots Fired 2. People switch to top characters and do better. It's amazing how that works.

If she's that easy to pick up, that much better than anyone else, why aren't we seeing comparable results and adoption rates?

First, Ringabel is my favorite character. Edea a close second.

Second, in your other post you said, "Unless it's Bayonetta, the fan voted character." I would like to point out the flaw in this with an hypothetical example:

I wanted Paper Mario to be in SM4SH. But if Sakurai (or whoever does it) made Paper Mario an ultra rush-down, DI tracking fiend, then i wouldn't play Paper Mario (well, maybe a little )

I hope you understand the example.

tfw even post-patch Diddy is better than Shulk.... lol i just have to unlock the secret of his power one day!!!

I agree though about the overhype on Bayonetta.

 

[Ijuka]

Meta Knight is infinitely better than Bayonetta.

Those matchups aren't as difficult as you make them out to be. Try punishing Bayonetta on landing after any of her unsafe stuff and you will see that it's not that tough. Most tournament players, even good players, are playing vs Bayonetta completely wrong even in the highest level tournaments. She's easily punishable every time she goes in the air and uses a special. Hold shield, wait for bayonetta to land, drop shield, dash grab. Repeat.

If she's not going in the air with specials she's near useless. As long as you aren't jumping and play patient, your ground game is stronger.

 

[Ghidorah14]

EDIT: Why do I get the feeling that a lot of people think that Bayonetta isn't that good, yet they decide to main her? is it to develop the meta?

It could be because they...

...wait for it...

...like the character?

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT OMG NO WAI RIGHT????

Not even just playstyle wise, but actually loving her as a character, from her own games?

I mean, look at sheik. Nobody likes sheik. What was her character?

"Link, you must do the thing.

PS I'm totes not zelda.

PSS actually zelda."

People played her because she was the best in the game. With bayonetta, there is actually a character to like outside of smash.

 

[blackghost]

Bayonetta is basically the of Smash 4, really; except probably even Brawl MK isn't as hilariously polarizing as Bayonetta.

The biggest gripe I have with Bayo's design is that she effectively kills off the competetive viability of a good chunk of the cast by design alone. You can say we can D.I out, but what tournament player doesn't know how to read D.I like a book? That's one of the founding pillars for good placements is having good D.I and good D.I reading skills.

Granted, not all characters are equal...but that doesn't excuse the fact that well-played Bayos are still going to invalidate most other characters based on their tools alone. Even MELEE doesn't have a character that wrecks the metagame to this degree!

Sure, her results aren't off-the-wall, but a number of other characters' results have tanked ever since Bayo released. Who'd ever want to play when is so much better?

No character in a fighting game, at least not one that's legal in tournaments, should invalidate most of the cast. Street Fighter tournaments ban Akuma for this very reason, and even Brawl banned Meta Knight for a while. I think we need to ban Bayonetta; maybe not forever, but long enough for people to calm down and accept that maybe, sometimes, banning the character and letting the metagame be is a better option than introducing a character who's entire design invalidates most others.

Think of it like this; if had the ability to 0-death any large character soley based on a misspaced jab, there'd be grumblings of banning as well. We should never defend a poorly-optimized character just because "they haven't dominated the meta yet". Waiting untill they start dominating the meta is a slippery slope, because people will always claim that their mains aren't dominating the meta in the face of prospective banning even if that main clearly is. Even pre-patch , as obnoxious an MU as he was, was manageable for characters like if they played at their best. is damn-near insurmountable by , or really any other heavy. Their buffs don't mean a damn because nobody sees them anymore because Bayonetta invalidates heavies simply by existing.

Bayonetta has a horribly unbalanced risk-reward ratio; very low risk, very high reward is not how a character should be, especially not one with the tools Bayo has.

EDIT: And remember, Bayo's not been out for that long; she came out in Feburary, so we've only had two months of time with her in the meta. Remember when Zelda was top-tier early on in competetive Melee? Things change with time, and just like how more and more 's began taking tournaments over time, I'm predicting that more and more 's will end up taking tournaments over time.

There is so much wrong with this. metaknight was one of the strongest fighting game characters EVER CREATED. he had no weakness, no bad matchups, kill power, safetey, recovery, ect. TORNADO. i like to have patience with dicussions like this but stop the BS. comapring bayonetta to brawl metaknight is absolutely ridiculous and makes you look like you have no idea what you are talking about.
2. You can say we can D.I out, but what tournament player doesn't know how to read D.I like a book
considering bayonetta doesn't kill everytime she touches yu (ive played games where thats atcually true) it doesnt matter.
your akuma referenc eis literally 2 games late. and she doesnt invalidate the entire cast at all. if she did she'd have better results. toon link invalidates a lot of hers tho.
we have already on this board talked about the jab witch time punish to death fallacy. basic frame data proofs this to be possible but not at all practical. bayonetta players aren'yt looking to witchtime jabs. just not true.
and last question where wer epeople like you when shiek actually WAS making characters competitively useless?
fox is borderline unfair in melee due to a combination of speed, shine, frame data, and grab followups (im no melee expert but thats what i see.
bayonetta is below average speed, zeor grab follows, weak frame data, no shine, and lag after specials prevent her from dominating a game in a simliar way. furthermore if they actaully do nerf her AGAIN she will be gutted. shiek and diddy survive their extreme nerfs because they have the frames to compensate she doesn't
also if bayonetta is dominating you in neutral you're doing something wrong.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

It could be because they...

...wait for it...

...like the character?

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT OMG NO WAI RIGHT????

Not even just playstyle wise, but actually loving her as a character, from her own games?

I mean, look at sheik. Nobody likes sheik. What was her character?

"Link, you must do the thing.

PS I'm totes not zelda.

PSS actually zelda."

People played her because she was the best in the game. With bayonetta, there is actually a character to like outside of smash.

Uhhh thanks for the rude response. If you like the character, great. I main Shulk, and he kinda sucks, tbh. But I like the character. So i can relate to your rude and poorly crafted response to genuine interest.

 

[TurboLink]

Bayonetta is basically the of Smash 4, really; except probably even Brawl MK isn't as hilariously polarizing as Bayonetta.

The biggest gripe I have with Bayo's design is that she effectively kills off the competetive viability of a good chunk of the cast by design alone. You can say we can D.I out, but what tournament player doesn't know how to read D.I like a book? That's one of the founding pillars for good placements is having good D.I and good D.I reading skills.

Granted, not all characters are equal...but that doesn't excuse the fact that well-played Bayos are still going to invalidate most other characters based on their tools alone. Even MELEE doesn't have a character that wrecks the metagame to this degree!

Sure, her results aren't off-the-wall, but a number of other characters' results have tanked ever since Bayo released. Who'd ever want to play when is so much better?

No character in a fighting game, at least not one that's legal in tournaments, should invalidate most of the cast. Street Fighter tournaments ban Akuma for this very reason, and even Brawl banned Meta Knight for a while. I think we need to ban Bayonetta; maybe not forever, but long enough for people to calm down and accept that maybe, sometimes, banning the character and letting the metagame be is a better option than introducing a character who's entire design invalidates most others.

Think of it like this; if had the ability to 0-death any large character soley based on a misspaced jab, there'd be grumblings of banning as well. We should never defend a poorly-optimized character just because "they haven't dominated the meta yet". Waiting untill they start dominating the meta is a slippery slope, because people will always claim that their mains aren't dominating the meta in the face of prospective banning even if that main clearly is. Even pre-patch , as obnoxious an MU as he was, was manageable for characters like if they played at their best. is damn-near insurmountable by , or really any other heavy. Their buffs don't mean a damn because nobody sees them anymore because Bayonetta invalidates heavies simply by existing.

Bayonetta has a horribly unbalanced risk-reward ratio; very low risk, very high reward is not how a character should be, especially not one with the tools Bayo has.

EDIT: And remember, Bayo's not been out for that long; she came out in Feburary, so we've only had two months of time with her in the meta. Remember when Zelda was top-tier early on in competetive Melee? Things change with time, and just like how more and more 's began taking tournaments over time, I'm predicting that more and more 's will end up taking tournaments over time.

People are too quick to use one national as proof that Bayonetta won't ruin the meta in the future. Which is extremely asinine.

Bayonetta players haven't been playing their character for long. Players can become better than they are now.

There is so much wrong with this. metaknight was one of the strongest fighting game characters EVER CREATED.

I don't play many fighting games (And I doubt you do either.) but I don't believe this for a second.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Bayonetta players haven't been playing their character for long. Players can become better than they are now

That is equally true for every other characters. Paranoia isn't a good argument.

I don't play many fighting games (And I doubt you do either.) but I don't believe this for a second.

If you don't play much fighting games much, why are you making outrageous claims?

Oh wait, it's because I main a heavy, isn't it? I'm utterly paranoid because I don't want Bayonetta cutting me out because of her kit, and I'm being self-centered by not thinking of the Bayo mains-wah, wah, wah.

I didn't know you main heavyweight, can't really see it with mobile. Again though, your argument is based off of paranoia. You haven't brought up your argument on why she should be banned aside from "I can lose to her".

 

[Buddhahobo]

If Bayonetta invalidates characters (and she does, don't deny that), than it's not exactly fun for the players of those invalidated characters to play competetive Smash, isn't it?

Rosalina invalidates Ness by design.

It's not a reason to ban the Rosalina.

Further, as you brought up, she's been out since Feburary only. A proper MU chart takes longer than that, and even then it would not contain the amount of 7:3 match ups you're asserting it would.

HE WAS BANNED FOR BEING OVERCENTRALIZING. Nobody should have to put up with running into the same awful MU just because people are crying that "Bayonetta's not broken, she has flaws!";

Flaws that we are also seeing capitalized on by players who are consistently beating her.

She also doesn't have her own tier?

Again, overcentralization was, like many of the things said about the character not something that materialized at Pound.

As were 0-death combos, if I recall Top 8 correctly. Hyuga for instance found a way out of those alleged inescapable combos plenty of times, and once you've got a character up to the % that Pink Fresh typically needed, you were already looking at Melee!Puff rest range, the typical range for the other Smash 4 ladder combos that the game has had, or just any typical smash attack. When the Toon Link seems to more often than not seem to be living to over 100% before those inescapable combos seem to actually end in a KO, it's hard to say they're denying the data in front of them when they're being told she's broken and has no flaws.

Give Witch Time and Witch Twist to , and he'd be just as bad as Bayo is. Different situation.

Be still my beating heart. Does he get the poses and skin tight leather outfit too? I need to know the answer for academic reasons.

But yes, changing the character model over the same moveset doesn't actually change the character. I don't think that was the point you were trying to make.

Granted, but that's comparing apples to oranges at any rate; those characters are imbalanced because of their kit's power when used correctly, not because their tools by themselves would invalidate characters.

I'd argue that it's relevant when the argument being presented is that Roster invalidation or even infinite combos is a death sentence to a competitive fighting game. The Marvel vs Capcom series shows that such an argument is factually meritless.

While Smash is a different demographic (the orange to Marvel's apple, I suppose is being argued), the logic behind that particular argument is still baseless, and must be corrected to match the data.

Because those MU's arent damn-near unwinnable for those characters? It's hard, yes, but the Shulk/pre-patch Diddy and Greninja/Sheik MU's were never this unbalanced in the favor of one character.

That was not the argument being used that I responded to, unless I misunderstood the initial sentence?

You said why anyone would ever use Charizard when Bayonetta exists. Rather, why use a low tier when a high tier exists, yes?

What do match ups have to do with "why use Shulk when you can use pre-patch Diddy" or "why use discount disco ninja frog when you can use crossdressing nostalgia ninja"?

First, Ringabel is my favorite character. Edea a close second.

At the moment.

The Mrgrgr will consume you as well. In time.

I wanted Paper Mario to be in SM4SH. But if Sakurai (or whoever does it) made Paper Mario an ultra rush-down, DI tracking fiend, then i wouldn't play Paper Mario (well, maybe a little )

You wouldn't play your most wanted character in Smash Brothers because they were even better than you could have possibly imagined?

I mean, I know you take it back in the parenthesis, but you've got to admit that that is a pretty ridiculous assertion.

EDIT: Why do I get the feeling that a lot of people think that Bayonetta isn't that good, yet they decide to main her? is it to develop the meta?

Have you ever played her games? They're phenomenal.

As is many of the things Platinum Games and Kamiya produces.

People do pick characters for reasons independent of how good they may or not be. I started Smash 4 as a Zelda main for instance because I liked how her up-b slid around the stage and because all of her attacks made pretty sparkles. They got rid of the former bit when they added Dreamland because the same mechanic that let Zelda slide around with up-b also would have let the tree in dream land literally blow players off the stage, but the second reason remained.

People are too quick to use one national as proof that Bayonetta won't ruin the meta in the future. Which is extremely asinine.

You're absolutely right.

It's extremely asinine to argue that current data does not support the assertions being presented.

It would make far more sense to ban the character everywhere on the chance that one day the data will actually support the assertions being presented. Just in case.

That argument is viciously mocked in politics (Ban all muslims / refugees, just in case one is a terrorist) and economics (Austrian economics in a nutshell). It will be equally mocked here.

I don't play many fighting games (And I doubt you do either.) but I don't believe this for a second.

Neither should you believe it.

It's astounding how many know not the depravity of unbalanced fighting game history. Omega Tom Hanks...Nightmare Broly...Ivan Ooze...almost every boss character King of Fighters has ever had...

That isn't to say Metaknight isn't up there, but it simply isn't true that he's #1.

 

[TurboLink]

You're absolutely right.

It's extremely asinine to argue that current data does not support the assertions being presented.

It would make far more sense to ban the character everywhere on the chance that one day the data will actually support the assertions being presented. Just in case.

That argument is viciously mocked in politics (Ban all muslims / refugees, just in case one is a terrorist) and economics (Austrian economics in a nutshell). It will be equally mocked here.

Well I never said anything about banning her. I just don't like the "Ha! Bayonetta didn't win Pound 2016! Bayonetta is balanced and all of you need to git gud!" attitude that would fit right at home on gamefaqs.

 

[Greward]

It's funny that the first place to ban Bayonetta is a European country, since we europeans were the ones who voted for her.

 

[AkiraGr]

Oh my god... I can not comprehend the situation with a request to ban a character from a fighting game. Are we for real here? Have other smash players who agree with this have checked other scenes, like street fighter 4 vanilla. Check Vanilla Sagat for the match up and still community didn't ban him from tournaments. And Bayonetta is active only for 2 months let the meta flow guys and learn how to play the game, not relay on character kit's or being manipulated by Smash champions to support their bias against a match up like a mindless mob.

Let's get better people not asking for bans.

A venue in Spain banning Bayo is not a European thing. Some salty idiots are trying to create a commotion because a guy there playing Bayonetta two stock everyone... Hahahahaha

 

[Espy Rose]

Good call on the ban, Greward. Local community and the active players in it are always the primary concern for these kind of situations. Do whatever you can to grow the scene and keep it fun.

 

[Axel311]

I feel like so many pro-Bayonetta people are missing the other side's point completely.

While many think Bayo is currently best in game, arguments for her being OP is not what is making so many players hate her. It's her very safe options to fish for her combos, the ability to zero to death, the lack of sufficient counterplay to her combos (DI helps only marginally as Bayo players can read and react to it), how easy it is to pick up and do well with her (As Koromikiri proved by winning a big tourney in Japan with Bayo just a few days after she was released). Just to name a few. It's not her overall power, but her character design that people are mad about.

Again, her being OP is not the main reason for the hate. So I really wish people would not focus so much on the "learn the matchup" "her results aren't there yet" " "she is not OP for this or that reason" arguments that really are not relevant to what the anti-Bayo people are actually upset about.

 

[Buddhahobo]

Well I never said anything about banning her.

*Checks thread title*

I apologize for overextending my reading of your post, then.

In my defense, you are posting in the "Banning Bayonetta in tournaments" thread. It's assumed posts will be on topic, unless otherwise indicated.

I just don't like the "Ha! Bayonetta didn't win Pound 2016! Bayonetta is balanced and all of you need to git gud!" attitude that would fit right at home on gamefaqs.

As would the "Bayonetta will kill the game, the community, and the EVO champion's first born" attitude that has been ever present and is actually what's being responded to.

Pound 2016 was a treasure trove of data that invalidated much of the doom saying. What is mostly going on is many people putting their fingers in their ears and shouting that they aren't listening. Doubling down on their opinions instead of adapting due to the reveal of new data to the contrary of it.

Saying she shouldn't be banned is not saying she's balanced. I do however contend that, yes, by saying she shouldn't be banned, we are also saying people need to "git gud" because she's not going anywhere otherwise.

It's funny that the first place to ban Bayonetta is a European country, since we europeans were the ones who voted for her.

You Europeans just don't know what you want. Obviously it's up to the US to properly FREEDOM the whole lot of you.

That said, could you respond to the question I asked you here? I've quoted down again below.

Smash scenes are typically stronger than you seem to be putting it down as; if the US can thrive when 3/4ths of our tournaments were going *customs* for months on end, Bayonetta with your...what, sixth best ranked player?...winning a tournament doesn't say many good things of the stability of your scene as is.

Are there other problems that you're concerned about with regards to Smash 4 in Spain?

 

[Greward]

This was meant to be a humorous anecdote by the way. I'm not actually questioning your nationality.

Is this the first time a ban has been brought up in the Spanish scene? Nothing on Diddy or Sheik?



Unless it's Bayonetta, the fan voted character.

With worse results than the other top level threats in the game.

Don't get me wrong, theological debate on a website is not going to sway the opinion of the Spanish scene and whatever comes to pass comes to pass, but I'd be lying if I didn't find much of the reasoning outside of the current community reaction (which is, admittedly, the only important one) to ring hollow.

Smash scenes are typically stronger than you seem to be putting it down as; if the US can thrive when 3/4ths of our tournaments were going *customs* for months on end, Bayonetta with your...what, sixth best ranked player?...winning a tournament doesn't say many good things of the stability of your scene as is.

Are there other problems that you're concerned about with regards to Smash 4 in Spain?

Never banned any other character in smash. Our only other ban in FGC (as far as I know) was Kokonoe from BlazBlue on release.

Bayonetta is not being as problematic in USA than she is everywhere. As I said before, look at Japan.
It's mainly because the god players aren't playing her. TBH pink fresh went from not doing anything impressive at Xanadus to winning them extremely easy and being a major tournament threat. Tyroy, Salem, Saj and probably more I'm not even aware of have done something similar.

This is either because she's broken or it's coincidence.

Sorry for not answering before, I got so many notifications atm it's crazy lol

 

[KayJay]

Yea, without the soft ban the american top players agreed, american tourney top 8 would be full of bayonettas and she would win the majors.

 

[Giova]

This thread shouldn't exist, I'm top 5 player in my country and bayonetta is my main and the only 4 people above me win with

What I want to say with this is that you all need to get better, geez the best player in the country just won everyone in a torney with just .

Git gud...

And spain... Why?

 

[NotLiquid]

Bayonetta not getting passed the Top 8 entry gate at Pound is not an active indicator that she is not a level above the entire cast.

Bayonetta getting voted out by one particular scene is not an indicator that she, in fact, is a level above the entire cast either, or that she deserves a global ban.

Neither of these arguments require the other to be wrong. They can both be right.

Personally, I don't agree to a ban. I'm not going to speak for a scene I have no involvement in either. The local scene where I am, which hosts some of Sweden's best players, haven't swung the bat on banning her yet - primarily because she isn't being picked up by most regulars. Our only regular who went Bayonetta in the recent weekly got double-eliminated at the starting line. But she is accepted - and hell, I was even surprised to see that the last weekly yielded a surprising deal of female players who were new and enjoyed playing as her. For now, Bayonetta hasn't been much of a problem here. I can see when it might be but for now that's yet to manifest itself.

If it fosters a better environment for your local scene, then I say go nuts with that ban. But if we're speaking in a broader term I'm not feeling as amicable about that. If the global scene comes around on her and don't ban her I feel that local scenes should take steps to be more prepared in fostering a realistic environment for that character, because two months in and I'm still not seeing her being on a level of someone like OG Akuma or Brawl Meta Knight. For now she's almost entirely recognized as a gimmick, and a subsequent ban on her is going to depend entirely on how she's going to be recognized as a character - something that's definitely going to take a long time because soft bans seem to limit the amount of players that are willing to have her develop. It's not going to be as easy as wanting someone like, say, ZeRo pick her up and show what she can do, because ZeRo is a naturally gifted player and has made mince meat out of people with Captain Falcon of all characters. It's going to have to be a wider phenomenon than that.

TBH pink fresh went from not doing anything impressive at Xanadus to winning them extremely easy and being a major tournament threat. Tyroy, Salem, Saj and probably more I'm not even aware of have done something similar.

This is either because she's broken or it's coincidence.

Pink Fresh placed 25th with a mid-tier-at-best character in a 512-entrant major. Pink Fresh was never a bad player, and even people criticizing Bayonetta like ZeRo attest to this fact. He needs to stop being used as an example of a bad trend because him being carried is far less likely than him being held back by a poor character, much like Tweek who saw a tremendous jump after dropping Bowser Jr for Cloud. Same goes for Saj, who has had respectable results with Peach; a character most people on Smashboards universally consider a joke of a "hidden potential" character.

I can't speak for many other players of the same ilk but the fact that several of them aren't nearly as prevalent as those (and 9B now that I think of it) speaks a lot more to player proficiency regarding Bayonetta. They're by no means "gods", but they're still miles ahead of a lot of the rank-and-file, and they need to stop being thrown under the bus.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Again, her being OP is not the main reason for the hate. So I really wish people would not focus so much on the "learn the matchup" "her results aren't there yet" " "she is not OP for this or that reason" arguments that really are not relevant to what the anti-Bayo people are actually upset about.

But those aren't invalid by any means. I can hate on how crazy Little Mac is, but the only thing I can really do is get better playing against him.

It's mainly because the god players aren't playing her. TBH pink fresh went from not doing anything impressive at Xanadus to winning them extremely easy and being a major tournament threat. Tyroy, Salem, Saj and probably more I'm not even aware of have done something similar.

There actually isn't a lot more, there is 9B, but can't really recall anyone else.
Plus, aside from PF, the others you mentioned doesn't win very consistently.
Also. If we, in theory, have ZeRo play Bayonetta, it doesn't really help since ZeRo is already a pretty damn good player.

 

[Spatman]

He's not, nothing has ever been banned in UMvC3 scene in Spain.



I mean, your argument was a bit flawed. It was an attack to people who wanted the character banned "weaklings" while just posing your opinion as the right one.
Sometimes you need to ban things to allow freedom.
If bayonetta is allowed, you are forcing people to play her (or lose to worse players that do play bayo), hence banning her is what allows people to play what they want.

So all top tiers must be banned?

 

[Buddhahobo]

how easy it is to pick up and do well with her (As Koromikiri proved by winning a big tourney in Japan with Bayo just a few days after she was released).

Tweek did the same thing in tristate when Cloud came out, beating Nairo in GF. He's also beaten Ranai and Dabuz.

And unlike Bayo, Cloud has actually changed part of the game drastically, notably the doubles metagame.

M2K has literally said in the past that the reason he played Pre-Patch Diddy was because it was a brain dead character.

We banned neither of them.

Again, her being OP is not the main reason for the hate. So I really wish people would not focus so much on the "learn the matchup" "her results aren't there yet" " "she is not OP for this or that reason" arguments that really are not relevant to what the anti-Bayo people are actually upset about.

Nonsense.

If tournament play is not showing the theoretical accusations as they were presented, then it's entirely relevant.

Sorry for not answering before, I got so many notifications atm it's crazy lol

Don't worry, I'm sure you're getting hit with a huge number and was just hoping to bring it to your attention as I assumed it got buried under all the other notifications you must have been getting.

My apologies though, but would it be possible to get a response to the last thing I said?

I will quote it again specifically.

Smash scenes are typically stronger than you seem to be putting it down as; if the US can thrive when 3/4ths of our tournaments were going *customs* for months on end, Bayonetta with your...what, sixth best ranked player?...winning a tournament doesn't say many good things of the stability of your scene as is.

Are there other problems that you're concerned about with regards to Smash 4 in Spain?

Basically, I've seen our Smash scene expand tremendously during one of the oddest segments of Smash history, seen the relative growth rates before and after, along with the retention rates. Much like the Premiere League, people tune in to watch good players play good football.

If Bayonetta is what may tear your national scene asunder, then from my own experience dealing with things much bigger than Bayo (Pre-Patch Diddy + Customs for months), I can only assume there is more too it than just Bayo, as I'm obviously taking what you've said of the general Spanish perspective as valid.

EDIT: I realize I might still be too vague. For some examples, how are your growth numbers, as you brought that up? Retention rates? Comparable size to US scene? I really don't know anything about your scene. Any information or personal feelings on the matter would be appreciated.

 

[Greward]

So all top tiers must be banned?

Only bayonetta
She's not top tier, she's god tier.

Basically, I've seen our Smash scene expand tremendously during one of the oddest segments of Smash history, seen the relative growth rates before and after, along with the retention rates. Much like the Premiere League, people tune in to watch good players play good football.

If Bayonetta is what may tear your national scene asunder, then from my own experience dealing with things much bigger than Bayo (Pre-Patch Diddy + Customs for months), I can only assume there is more too it than just Bayo, as I'm obviously taking what you've said of the general Spanish perspective as valid.

It's not about the top players or who wins tournaments, but if say seed 50 player loses to seed 60 player who plays bayonetta, he will be utter mad, complain about the character, and so on. Specially if you die from 0 death combos. Since bayonetta is agreed to be absurdly broken here, this player won't ever want to play against her, and he will have a "legit" john of why he lost.
I'm not sure I phrased the above correctly but whatever

The concept of bayonetta being broken and unfair is what will tear apart the community at the mid/low level players. At top level playing against Bayonetta is actually fun, since you are playing something super unfair that you have to overcome, and getting a stock off her is so damn crowdpleasing that it's worth it.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

She's not top tier, she's god tier.

Why might I ask. Explain what makes her god tier.