Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments

[Sha-Shulk]

I don't think Bayonetta should be banned. But I suppose if Spain wants to ban a character, "they" can do as "they" please.

I've been posting and reading this thread because it's helped my understanding of the character, +leesinger, and I feel offended at being called a child for wanting to educate myself. If you don't like this thread, then you don't have to post.

IMO, Bayonetta was a strange choice to add for the final DLC batch. She has added a whole new "flavor" (for lack of a better term) to the game, and, according to Kip Shades and others, had introduced similar elements from other fighting games (sorry if that's not what you meant. And I agree with your posts)

My earlier posts were a bit "whiny", i suppose, but I stuck around to learn the MU and the character, and to voice my concerns about certain characteristics of Bayonetta.

+leesinger, if that's childish to you, then maybe you should consider a different fighting game (and i mean that honestly and nicely)

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Yes mad respect to a region for kowtowing to laziness and naivety. People who want her to be banned are fully capable of voicing their opinions, but reading through them all its pretty obvious that:

1. They don't have a single idea how competetive games work
2. They are just flat out wrong about the character and what she can do.
3. They are dead set in their opinion that she is toxic and should be removed instead of hearing the otherside of the argument.

I'm not being a "dirtbag" I'm being realistic. You play two characters that actually dominate bayonetta in neutral (fox,falcon). Saying that you find her toxic to play against is literally not a reason to have her banned. That is your opinion, nothing more. And that opinion is in the minority. Until bayonetta is everywhere and winning everythig there is no merit to her being banned. And comparing her to banning items and stages? Are you an idiot? They are completely different things. The "pros" aren't sick of her, there are just a few top players who think shes cheap and is too easy to use for how effective she is(Zero, Anti, Mvd come to mind). Not a single pro player worth his salt actually agrees on a ban. I'm second best in my state on the PR and nobody here agrees that shes ban worthy. On the contrary they all understand how the character works because of MU experience and me explaining how to DI and punish bayo's neutral game. So not to be a ****, but you are just flat out wrong on all accounts.

See my post above. You're free to share your opinion about it all, but ultimately, you're not a member of their community, and your abrasive posting style is unlikely to win anyone over. They don't have to adhere to any sense of competitive spirit or "fair play". They could ban Bayonetta because they dislike her glasses. They're not marching around shouting "anyone who doesn't ban Bayonetta is an idiot", so you don't need to get all up in arms about what a community in Spain is doing.

 

[leesinger]

I don't think Bayonetta should be banned. But I suppose if Spain wants to ban a character, "they" can do as "they" please.

I've been posting and reading this thread because it's helped my understanding of the character, +leesinger, and I feel offended at being called a child for wanting to educate myself. If you don't like this thread, then you don't have to post.

IMO, Bayonetta was a strange choice to add for the final DLC batch. She has added a whole new "flavor" (for lack of a better term) to the game, and, according to Kip Shades and others, had introduced similar elements from other fighting games (sorry if that's not what you meant. And I agree with your posts)

My earlier posts were a bit "whiny", i suppose, but I stuck around to learn the MU and the character, and to voice my concerns about certain characteristics of Bayonetta.

+leesinger, if that's childish to you, then maybe you should consider a different fighting game (and i mean that honestly and nicely)

I wasn't talking to you specifically, just the general notion that a character should be banned, when there is literally no evidence to support that notion is absolutely ridiculous and childish. If you found this thread helpful then thats great.

 

[Shadow Light Master]

My point is you can't tell local scenes what to do. Yes, we agree that she shouldn't be banned, but you're talking as if every local competitive Smash scene has raw, unadulterated aspirations to enter the pro circuit. At the height of Melee's growth (before Brawl came out), I attended tournaments that had the wonkiest rule sets: banning wavedashing, legal Temple, best of one sets, games played on super laggy displays, etc. You and I can sit and point and laugh, but I went to a couple of those events. The attendees honestly didn't know any better, and their scene did just fine. As a temporary resident of that scene, I took steps to influence them to adopt better conventions, but I can only do so much.

The point of tournaments is to be competitive. If people don't like that, they shouldn't enter them. Bayonetta players shouldn't have to form their own locals just because scrubs don't want to get good. That's ridiculous when there's nothing unfair about the character.

Should we have locals where Puff and wobbling are banned? It's idiotic.

 

[leesinger]

See my post above. You're free to share your opinion about it all, but ultimately, you're not a member of their community, and your abrasive posting style is unlikely to win anyone over. They don't have to adhere to any sense of competitive spirit or "fair play". They could ban Bayonetta because they dislike her glasses. They're not marching around shouting "anyone who doesn't ban Bayonetta is an idiot", so you don't need to get all up in arms about what a community in Spain is doing.

I'm only posting so much cause people are calling me out, so sry if i'm typing too much. You are right I am being abrasive, because it literally offends me when people who are wrong think they are right. There is this sense of entitlement in the smash 4 community that doesn't seem to exist in the other smash games. It could be due to the demographic, which is largely a younger audience, or the fact that the game receives patches and people think that by complaining alot, they can get the devs attention to get the changes they want(a reasonable argument to be had). You are also right that I am not part of the community in Spain. But I am part of the smash community and that is a global thing. So I do in fact have the right to comment and call them on their bull****, because we all play the same game.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

I wasn't talking to you specifically, just the general notion that a character should be banned, when there is literally no evidence to support that notion is absolutely ridiculous and childish. If you found this thread helpful then thats great.

Well, your post was very abrasive and open-ended.
EDIT: and you posted lengthy posts before anyone had "called you out". Sorry about calling you out on the other posts though.

Question: what is wobbling? was that a melee thing?

Question (concerning the thread): Do people consider Bayonetta to be top-tier?

 

[DblCrest]

This conversation really makes me see the whole character mains under account names as double edged swords now (well for some of the debate threads anyway). Always seem to be people trying to discredit or shoot down arguments based on a single icon under the other person's name.

But to stay on topic. We're jumping the gun here.
Honestly I reckon we should still see how things turn out. Tournaments haven't been overrun with an army of witches. Recent patches stopped Witch time (which honestly was my bane) from being as spammable even . The only thing I dislike regarding Bayonetta is that the other characters weren't as fine tuned. =/

 

[Greda]

Mad respect to Spain for considering a ban. I believe that no one wants to admit that they're in favor of a ban because they know that they'll never hear the end of it. People can be total dirtbags over opposing opinions (note the post above), and not a lot of people wanna put up with that. But Spain is taking steps towards something that may genuinely help our community. If 80% of a community is unhappy, something needs to change. Right now, Spain is the only one actively trying to fix the problem. (FTR - Telling people to "git gud" or "adapt" is not helping). I'm not saying it's the right way to go about solving this problem, but at least they're trying. Even though she's lacking results, people are sick of her. Even pros. That's almost unheard of in any competitive game. But we have to remember that Sm4sh is NOT supposed to be a competitive game, and we've made changes to make the game as competitive as we can. We've banned items, stages, tactics and customs. Maybe banning a character is what is going to have to happen next. I'm not saying it's the one true solution to this drama, but if it is going to help the community, is it really that bad of an idea?

80% of a community based off under 200 votes. Also, if Smash isn't made to be played competitively, why ban characters? Actually, why have tournaments or locals at all?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

The point of tournaments is to be competitive. If people don't like that, they shouldn't enter them. Bayonetta players shouldn't have to form their own locals just because scrubs don't want to get good. That's ridiculous when there's nothing unfair about the character.

Should we have locals where Puff and wobbling are banned? It's idiotic.

See, you're crossing into ridiculous territory now. People can run tournaments for any purpose they choose. You have no say in that. You can mock from the sidelines all you want, but you don't get to decide why anyone does what they do. You're in luck that most competitive communities do want to play well and rise up, so you have little to worry about. You're just off your rocker if you think that every community everywhere is obligated to "git gud".

If someone wants to host a tournament that bans Puff and wobbling, they can. If someone does this and gets 500 people to attend, what are you gonna do? Call the police?

 

[blackghost]

Spain has a right to do as it pleases no one is disputing that. However this is highly problematic in several areas.
It gives precedence. The first band of it ever happens has to happen somewhere. And Spain is just the first large scene to do it. It happened in the US already too. Michigan I believe
It makes the scene weaker. If bayonetta was such a problem in a month time that you ban her your scene is objectively weak. I say that because even players that hate the character have to agree on basic facts about her : she has weaknesses and there's no effective evidence to suggest that she currently can dominate this game.(subject to change however)
It makes us all as smash players look whiny. Smash 4 isn't my first competitive scene my first was street fighter 4 followed by marvel 3. The only character that had even close to this much hate was phoenix. A character that you literally had to kill twice and could one touch any character and kill them. And she had an incoming 50 50 that if you lost you'd basically lose the game.
That character was never even discussed to be banned.
The smash community in particular smash 4 has proven to be very rigid in a lot of things I was hoping it wouldn't be. But the reputation of this community actually respected by the fgc. Currently. If we open the ban box in other communities eyes it looks weak and noncompetitive. Especially if we ban her this early.
And for those of you who think our community reputation in the fgc minds don't matter, do you guys like being at evo? At other majors? Because if they lose respect for us as a community TOs will stop asking us to be there.
And already videos like zeros bayo rant already raise some eyebrows from my friends that play other games.

 

[Shadow Light Master]

See, you're crossing into ridiculous territory now. People can run tournaments for any purpose they choose. You have no say in that. You can mock from the sidelines all you want, but you don't get to decide why anyone does what they do. You're in luck that most competitive communities do want to play well and rise up, so you have little to worry about. You're just off your rocker if you think that every community everywhere is obligated to "git gud".

If someone wants to host a tournament that bans Puff and wobbling, they can. If someone does this and gets 500 people to attend, what are you gonna do? Call the police?

OK, they can. That doesn't change the fact that's idiotic and shouldn't happen. I'm not saying to pass legislation to make it illegal. But it's definitely something that should be opposed by the Smash community at every step of the way. It's our role, as competitive players, to ensure locals stay competitive. What happens if someone's biggest local ends up banning Bayonetta? Should someone have to drive 50 miles to get actual practice?

This is a total strawman. I don't think anybody, by force or law, should be stopped from holding such a local. But they should definitely be boycotted.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Yes mad respect to a region for kowtowing to laziness and naivety. People who want her to be banned are fully capable of voicing their opinions, but reading through them all its pretty obvious that:

1. They don't have a single idea how competetive games work
2. They are just flat out wrong about the character and what she can do.
3. They are dead set in their opinion that she is toxic and should be removed instead of hearing the otherside of the argument.

Agree to disagree. There are people who have legit reasoning, you can't generalize everyone like that. I mean pro's like Ally has said he wants to see a ban on her. But he doesn't know anything about competitive gaming right? Seagull Joe, Anti, Zinoto, Ryuga, and even ZeRo have noted their sentaments against the character. But again, they probably are flat out wrong about what they know about the character and what she can do. What silly guys.

I'm not being a "dirtbag" I'm being realistic. You play two characters that actually dominate bayonetta in neutral (fox,falcon). Saying that you find her toxic to play against is literally not a reason to have her banned. That is your opinion, nothing more. And that opinion is in the minority. Until bayonetta is everywhere and winning everythig there is no merit to her being banned. And comparing her to banning items and stages? Are you an idiot? They are completely different things. The "pros" aren't sick of her, there are just a few top players who think shes cheap and is too easy to use for how effective she is(Zero, Anti, Mvd come to mind). Not a single pro player worth his salt actually agrees on a ban. I'm second best in my state on the PR and nobody here agrees that shes ban worthy. On the contrary they all understand how the character works because of MU experience and me explaining how to DI and punish bayo's neutral game. So not to be a ****, but you are just flat out wrong on all accounts.

I'm not calling you a dirtbag (rather these overly aggressive and closed minded arguments are parallel to aspects of a dirtbag), but you asking me if I'm an idiot and telling me that I'm wrong really doesn't help you're argument that you're not. Neither do these points:

Everyone who thinks she needs to be banned when she literally has ZERO results at a major need to pull their heads out of their *****.
...
Because i'm not a ****ing child and I understand that the character has weaknesses and I would do my best to learn the matchup and exploit them instead of taking to social media sites and complaning.
...
there is no merit for keeping this thread alive, it only serves to validate ignorant people who get 0 to deathed on for glory and think that means anything.

But this isn't about you relying on ad hominem to get a point across. This is about Bayo. I also don't know where you're pulling the information that Fox and Falcon beat Bayo. Afterall, like you said "brand new character when we literally have no idea what she is capable of". But I'll just assume you're right. Beating Bayonetta in the neutral doesn't mean much when she can combo you pretty hard after getting one opening in the neutral. We've seen players get death combos after one opening. Watch 9B sometime. Bayonetta players can in fact read DI and alter their combos to account for it. And when I said the stages/items ban, you're missing the point. Like I said, Sm4sh is not designed to be a competive game. We've altered the ruleset to many times to get where we are, and we still have a ways to go. Like I said, I don't know if it's the right way to go about it. It's a suggestion and there's no need for you to get offended by it, nor is there any reason for you to treat someone like they're less than you just because they feel a different way about the game. We have differing opinions, and I'm respecting yours. I'm going to politely ask that you respect mine because as any sane person will tell you, neither one of us are 100% right in this issue.

Completely unrelated, but out of curiosity, who is the number 1 in your PR?

 

[Shadow Light Master]

Pet peeve, but insults alone aren't ad hominem attacks. The insult has to be used to discredit your argument, e.g. "you're an idiot so you're wrong." "You're wrong and an idiot" is not an ad hominem attack.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Pet peeve, but insults alone aren't ad hominem attacks. The insult has to be used to discredit your argument, e.g. "you're an idiot so you're wrong." "You're wrong and an idiot" is not an ad hominem attack.

You're right. I suddenly love Bayonetta.

OK, they can. That doesn't change the fact that's idiotic and shouldn't happen. I'm not saying to pass legislation to make it illegal. But it's definitely something that should be opposed by the Smash community at every step of the way. It's our role, as competitive players, to ensure locals stay competitive. What happens if someone's biggest local ends up banning Bayonetta? Should someone have to drive 50 miles to get actual practice?

This is a total strawman. I don't think anybody, by force or law, should be stopped from holding such a local. But they should definitely be boycotted.

If someone advertised a tournament where Bayonetta was illegal, it's possible that more people would be inclined to attend. Whether or not you think it's an idiotic notion is completely irrelevant. Maybe a tournament like this could really help the community. I agree that as competitive players, it is our job to make sure that the game stays competitive. And if getting rid of Bayo makes the game more competitive and helps it grow, wouldn't that be the right way to go about keeping this game competitive? You can't just say "We must boycott them because they're doing rules I don't like!" You have to sit back and think, "hey, if this is helping the community grow even though it goes against my own opinions, maybe it's the right way to go about this."

 

[HoSmash4]

At the end of the day - It's a game. Is it fun playing Bayonetta? I think thats what the spanish scene is looking for more. I dont necessarily agree with the ban so early in the meta, but if Spain overall thinks playing Bayo is making them not want to play Smash 4, then they should ban her. I say this even though atm I'm playing Bayonetta but I admit she is stupid.

 

[po pimpus]

You guys are scrubs.

Warn me, ban me, I don't care anymore.

This crying over Bayonetta has gone too far. When did the Smash community become so weak?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

OK, they can. That doesn't change the fact that's idiotic and shouldn't happen. I'm not saying to pass legislation to make it illegal. But it's definitely something that should be opposed by the Smash community at every step of the way. It's our role, as competitive players, to ensure locals stay competitive. What happens if someone's biggest local ends up banning Bayonetta? Should someone have to drive 50 miles to get actual practice?

This is a total strawman. I don't think anybody, by force or law, should be stopped from holding such a local. But they should definitely be boycotted.

Sure. Call for a boycott. Knock yourself out. Learn to deal with people who ignore your request, though. Are you really gonna lose sleep over a group of Smashers with different values than you? If you were in Spain, you'd avoid attending a tournament because you feel you have to make a stand?

Should someone have to drive 50 miles to get actual practice? If no one wants to deal with Bayonetta, then yes. Are you suggesting they have to start playing Bayonetta to protect someone's right to drive less than 50 miles?

Just stick to the facts. We don't need to ban Bayonetta because there are no statistics yet suggesting we do. If a community still wants to ban her because of stupid moves or whatever, you either have to join that community or make friendly, sensible arguments to get it changed. Insulting them strictly because they don't subscribe to your mindset is far more destructive than banning Bayonetta is. Fun fact: the game was just fine before Bayonetta came along. It will be fine either way.

Again, I don't support the banning of Bayonetta. I'm fine pointing out reasons why she shouldn't be banned, but I will never be able to get on board with your nuclear approach of "my way or the highway" when it comes to inter-community diplomacy.

 

[BunbUn129]

leesinger Some people don't get that: a lack of overwhelming results = no bans warranted. Forget Witch Twist, Witch Time, 50% combos, 0-deaths--she isn't getting dubious results, and so that is enough to not warrant a ban.


In Bayonetta's defense: common arguments for people supporting the ban:

"She's not fun to play against!" In COMPETITIVE play, you are not entitled to having fun.

"She's broken!" Like Trifroze has said, a character doesn't have to be broken to be poorly designed. Bayo is poorly designed, but she's far from broken.

"She's ruining the meta game!" She hasn't won a major, and she hasn't had the best results since her release. One Bayo player (Pink Fresh) got into a top 8 at a major, at 7th, and that's been her strongest placement so far. Broken and ban-worthy, amirite?

 

[leesinger]

Agree to disagree. There are people who have legit reasoning, you can't generalize everyone like that. I mean pro's like Ally has said he wants to see a ban on her. But he doesn't know anything about competitive gaming right? Seagull Joe, Anti, Zinoto, Ryuga, and even ZeRo have noted their sentaments against the character. But again, they probably are flat out wrong about what they know about the character and what she can do. What silly guys.



I'm not calling you a dirtbag (rather these overly aggressive and closed minded arguments are parallel to aspects of a dirtbag), but you asking me if I'm an idiot and telling me that I'm wrong really doesn't help you're argument that you're not. Neither do these points:


But this isn't about you relying on ad hominem to get a point across. This is about Bayo. I also don't know where you're pulling the information that Fox and Falcon beat Bayo. Afterall, like you said "brand new character when we literally have no idea what she is capable of". But I'll just assume you're right. Beating Bayonetta in the neutral doesn't mean much when she can combo you pretty hard after getting one opening in the neutral. We've seen players get death combos after one opening. Watch 9B sometime. Bayonetta players can in fact read DI and alter their combos to account for it. And when I said the stages/items ban, you're missing the point. Like I said, Sm4sh is not designed to be a competive game. We've altered the ruleset to many times to get where we are, and we still have a ways to go. Like I said, I don't know if it's the right way to go about it. It's a suggestion and there's no need for you to get offended by it, nor is there any reason for you to treat someone like they're less than you just because they feel a different way about the game. We have differing opinions, and I'm respecting yours. I'm going to politely ask that you respect mine because as any sane person will tell you, neither one of us are 100% right in this issue.

Completely unrelated, but out of curiosity, who is the number 1 in your PR?

#1 on our PR is a player named Bestness. Ironic that you are calling my points ad hominem, when literally every one of your points is in fact ad hominem. I haven't seen a signle objective point you've made on why she needs to be banned let alone nerfed. Zero and many other pros have proven time and time again to be biased and have stated that their opinions on bayo are just that, opinions. I have met Ryuga in person and played him in the finals of my bracket at G3. He's a nice guy, but the dude isn't the first person I'd go looking to for opinions on the state of balance in the game. Seagull Joe is also notoriously biased and kind of a **** in real life. Never met ally, but he seems like a troll, (not in a bad way), but I can see him making ban bayo comments as a joke. I seriously doubt he would endorse a ban on the character. I say that Fox beats bayo in neutral just from raw frame data advantage and Falcon beats her because he can just spam grab and get guaranteed knees on her from her fallspeed/weight class. Not to mention that every bayo recovers the same way and a falcon can intercept her side b to stage with a d-air for the kill. Anti removed all the bayo hate from his twitter because he had a realization that it made him look like a fool. Zero came off like a whiny hypocrite in his video and many people have called him out for it. Don't even know who zinoto is lol. Either way, I am approaching the subject through an objective lens and you aren't. I will be on the right side of history here, that much I can assure you. Once people learn the bayo matchup I won't be surprised to see her lose consistently to a variety of characters that just destroy her in neutral. (Diddy, Sheik, cloud) to name a few. So you can continue to dig your head in the sand and stay immune to reason I guess. All we are asking on the pro bayonetta side is any evidence, any at all that a ban is warranted. Opinions mean nothing unless they are backed up by facts. "I don't like playing against her" does not constitute an argument or a ban. "she can kill me off of one move". No she can't if you learn the DI. Yes she has guaranteed kill followups at various percents. Learn them, they all have variations in DI that make them harder to execute. And where was the "ban meta knight" or "ban zss" thread, when they had guaranteed kill confirms that you literally couldn't escape regardless of DI? My smashcorner made a great video explaining how to DI them and execute them. I respect your opinion, obviously you want to see her nerfed, changed and thats fine. All I can say is that in the last patch she did receive some major nerfs to her witch time and a few minor tweeks to everything else. The character revolves around her crazy combo game, thats just part of the design. Take that away and you have a mediocre mid-tier with average frame data and no disjoints, no guaranteed grab followups, etc.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

At the end of the day - It's a game. Is it fun playing Bayonetta? I think thats what the spanish scene is looking for more. I dont necessarily agree with the ban so early in the meta, but if Spain overall thinks playing Bayo is making them not want to play Smash 4, then they should ban her. I say this even though atm I'm playing Bayonetta but I admit she is stupid.

I completely agree.

 

[Planty]

Most people who are pro-ban have been trying so hard to listen to the other side of the argument and find a middle ground. I don't see a lot of that from the pro-Bayo players.

Because pro-Bayo players don't need to do that. Pro-ban players want something, therefor the burden of proof falls on them.

Also how in the world would anyone make a middle ground?

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Because pro-Bayo players don't need to do that. Pro-ban players want something, therefor the burden of proof falls on them.

Also how in the world would anyone make a middle ground?

Well we could start by respecting each other.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

I will be on the right side of history here, that much I can assure you.

uhhhh is that a good claim to make?

I think everyone's been saying it's too early for a ban, but they respect Spain's decision to DO WHAT THEY WANT.

So you can continue to dig your head in the sand and stay immune to reason I guess.

Again, you are being very abrasive. Please try to dilute your vernacular, for the sake of this thread's civility.

 

[Zult]

I and many other people do not enjoy playing against Rosalina and Luma. Ban her, please.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I and many other people do not enjoy playing against Rosalina and Luma. Ban her, please.

I second this.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

I and many other people do not enjoy playing against Rosalina and Luma. Ban her, please.

Is that sarcasm?

EDIT: I see you main Bayonetta. I will assume you are just being sarcastic and making a comparison between the two characters.

However, if you've been reading the posts in the thread, almost none of them actually say, "I want Bayo to be banned" or something of the same value. This thread has evolved into a discussion of Bayonetta's poor/great (which one is it?) neutral game and concerns about her potential zero to deaths, witch time, bat within, and other unique attributes.

If you're going to post, post something constructive please. Just be nice about it. I joined this thread after a series of bitter losses against a Bayonetta zero-deathing me and countering my sluggish moves (Shulk lol). I was like, "ban ban ban ban ban all top tiers make Shulk top tier because I like that!" And then people, WHO KNOW MORE THAN I DO, educated me (indirectly) about Bayonetta's flaws. About exploiting and baiting her "sucky" dodges and rolls. This thread has been a HUGE help to my COMPETITIVE gameplay, and has also helped me to HAVE FUN the game. People enjoy winning, but I doubt anyone enjoys winning without effort.

 

[po pimpus]

Well we could start by respecting each other.

I can't respect scrubbery.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

I can't respect scrubbery.

Are you serious?

 

[Planty]

I and many other people do not enjoy playing against Rosalina and Luma. Ban her, please.

I don't either. Rosalina dittos are by far the worst thing in this game.

Is that sarcasm?

It's satire. Sort of like an emulation of the argument to ban Bayonetta.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

I don't either. Rosalina dittos are by far the worst thing in this game.

It's satire. Sort of like an emulation of the argument to ban Bayonetta.

Oh. that makes sense.

Lol just ban Rosalina and keep Luma in the next patch (if there is one). That should help round out all those top tiers.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Didn't express myself correctly tbh, but ye, people want her banned because she's broken/unfair which makes them not interested into the game aka scene not growing.



Funny to have someone who registered in 2015 talking about Brawl lol. I was antiban for the majority of Brawl lifespan, Bayo is better than ICs or MK anyways. People will say it's too early until it's too late, but you just need to take a look at the character to see that it's completely busted, do you think new DI will appear overtime that will help escape her 0 to death combos? I don't think so.

I do not agree with the bolded since I think this is an early call.

But I do think the parts you talking about what it is doing to your region are more compelling along with analyzing her.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Are you serious?

Don't respond to those kinds of statements.

 

[Greward]

If the Smash 4 community bans a character that hasn't won any tourneys, they're going to become a laughing stock.

She has, just not in USA. Look at locals, Japan, Australia, Europe.
Just look at xanadu.

Anyways, I don't want to discuss about how good she is here tbh.
She's (gonna be) banned because most of our community wants her gone and if she were to stay, our community would be hurt and attendance would shrink. We want for our scene to keep on increasing (it has been growing up at an astonishing rate). Bayonetta is a very big rock in our road, and we take care of it the best way we can.

 

[Shadow Light Master]

She has, just not in USA. Look at locals, Japan, Australia, Europe.
Just look at xanadu.

Anyways, I don't want to discuss about how good she is here tbh.
She's (gonna be) banned because most of our community wants her gone and if she were to stay, our community would be hurt and attendance would shrink. We want for our scene to keep on increasing (it has been growing up at an astonishing rate). Bayonetta is a very big rock in our road, and we take care of it the best way we can.

Competition isn't for weaklings. It's for people who want to be the best that they can be. If people get scared of Bayonetta and don't want to play, good. I want to play people who aren't afraid to struggle. Those are the only people who will end up pushing me to improve in the end.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

Competition isn't for weaklings. It's for people who want to be the best that they can be. If people get scared of Bayonetta and don't want to play, good. I want to play people who aren't afraid to struggle. Those are the only people who will end up pushing me to improve in the end.

Fair point, and I agree! But perhaps Bayonetta needs toning down?

EDIT: I don't mean like a hard nerf (Diddy, Luigi, Sheik)

 

[Greward]

Competition isn't for weaklings. It's for people who want to be the best that they can be. If people get scared of Bayonetta and don't want to play, good. I want to play people who aren't afraid to struggle. Those are the only people who will end up pushing me to improve in the end.

Competition isn't for weaklings. It's for people who want to be the best that they can be. If people get scared of maining Ganondorf and don't want to play, good. I want to play people who aren't afraid to struggle. Those are the only people who will end up pushing me to improve in the end.

 

[Shadow Light Master]

Sure. Call for a boycott. Knock yourself out. Learn to deal with people who ignore your request, though. Are you really gonna lose sleep over a group of Smashers with different values than you? If you were in Spain, you'd avoid attending a tournament because you feel you have to make a stand?

Should someone have to drive 50 miles to get actual practice? If no one wants to deal with Bayonetta, then yes. Are you suggesting they have to start playing Bayonetta to protect someone's right to drive less than 50 miles?

Just stick to the facts. We don't need to ban Bayonetta because there are no statistics yet suggesting we do. If a community still wants to ban her because of stupid moves or whatever, you either have to join that community or make friendly, sensible arguments to get it changed. Insulting them strictly because they don't subscribe to your mindset is far more destructive than banning Bayonetta is. Fun fact: the game was just fine before Bayonetta came along. It will be fine either way.

Again, I don't support the banning of Bayonetta. I'm fine pointing out reasons why she shouldn't be banned, but I will never be able to get on board with your nuclear approach of "my way or the highway" when it comes to inter-community diplomacy.

What are you talking about? Of course there will be people who ignore my request, no one is suggesting otherwise. I'm calling the anti-Bayonetta arguments stupid because they are. Of course when it comes to actually making my argument at a local I'm not going to be insulting.

Do I care what happens in Spain? No. But I can definitely critique it. There's nothing wrong with that.

"We don't need to ban Bayonetta because there are no statistics yet suggesting we do."

Okay, so we're in agreement. Don't start an argument just because I'm pointing out, rightfully, that people who want to ban Bayonetta aren't using a shred of logic.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

Competition isn't for weaklings. It's for people who want to be the best that they can be. If people get scared of maining Ganondorf and don't want to play, good. I want to play people who aren't afraid to struggle. Those are the only people who will end up pushing me to improve in the end.

uhhh interesting character swap. Why Ganondorf?

Also why would a tourney be limited to Ganondorf?

 

[Buddhahobo]

Agree to disagree. There are people who have legit reasoning, you can't generalize everyone like that. I mean pro's like Ally has said he wants to see a ban on her. But he doesn't know anything about competitive gaming right? Seagull Joe, Anti, Zinoto, Ryuga, and even ZeRo have noted their sentaments against the character. But again, they probably are flat out wrong about what they know about the character and what she can do. What silly guys.

Appeals to authority get us nowhere.

Only their reasoning matters, and many who have articulated it out, such as ZeRo as he's one of the people you have mentioned, have not had any real factual basis to stand on, and largely went off the deep end at that. Pound 2016 further quells much of what is said on the matter due to much of the doom saying not materializing.

Rather, being good at a video game does not mean their thought processes and reasonings are therefore logically sound or agrees with the existing data.

It also a matter that there are many of us with recollections greater than that of a goldfish (+ being from other FGC scenes) that can't help but raise an eyebrow at many of the allegations presented, considering the number of times we've heard such things before and seeing how they did or did not materialize.

Well we could start by respecting each other.

I'm honestly not sure why this seems to be such a difficult thing. Smash Brothers is a video game. People are people. While Nintendo games are well known for ruining friendships, the hostility from everyone is a bit much, though that might also have to do with the various buzzwords being thrown about ad nausea.

She has, just not in USA. Look at locals, Japan, Australia, Europe.
Just look at xanadu.

You said on reddit you've also asked other Spanish scenes for opinion; out of curiosity, is Virgil banned in whatever Spain has for a UMvC3 scene?

 

[Shadow Light Master]

Competition isn't for weaklings. It's for people who want to be the best that they can be. If people get scared of maining Ganondorf and don't want to play, good. I want to play people who aren't afraid to struggle. Those are the only people who will end up pushing me to improve in the end.

That doesn't make sense. Banning a character people want to play isn't the same as forcing everyone to play a certain character. One case adds options, the other takes them away.

Fair point, and I agree! But perhaps Bayonetta needs toning down?

EDIT: I don't mean like a hard nerf (Diddy, Luigi, Sheik)

We will see soon. As she is right now I think she's fine, but if she gets the results, she needs a nerf.