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Bandana Dee, the Legend of Dee - Our Star Ally as DeeLC?! (v(- ' ' -)>↑

Mamboo07

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Sakurai bias. Dark Matter comes from games that Sakurai didn't developed while Super did, and as Smash has shown time and time again, Sakurai puts most of his efforts in Kirby content he had a direct hand on.
Ah yes, the one thing that prevents his son Kirby from getting representation from the modern games.
(Sakurai created Kirby.)
 

Phoenix Douchebag

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Ah yes, the one thing that prevents his son Kirby from getting representation from the modern games.
(Sakurai created Kirby.)
That sounds stupid i know, but it is the truth. Sakurai may have created Kirby, but he hasn't had a major hand in the franchise since Air Ride. (the latter of which inspired Smash Run from 3DS)

Have you noticed how we have never gotten a stage from Kirby 64, or Kirby and the Amazing Mirror, or Dreamland 2 and 3, or Return to Dreamland or Squeak Squad or Triple Deluxe or Planet Robobot or Star Allies? We have only gotten stages from Dream Land 1 (which is the only Dreamland he was directing) Adventure and Super Star. The closest we got was a scrapped Epic Yarn stage that was retooled into the Wolly World stage (which honestly sounds more like an idea scrapped early on, and i think the only reason Sakurai mentioned this is because he wanted to save face)

We have gotten content from Modern Kirby games, namely the soundtrack has had music from Return to Dreamland, Kirby 64, Amazing Mirror and the like (ironically, there's not a SINGLE track from Epic Yarn in the series, which is why i heavily doubt the supposed Epic Yarn stage even made it to planning stages) and Kirby and Dedede's Final Smashes are based on RtDL and Super Star Ultra respectively, so at least there's SOMETHING, which is something i can't say for poor Wario Land, which has been neglected in Smash for ages (right down to having its most iconic element removed in Smash 4 and bought back in Ultimate when it souldn't have been removed in the first place) But even then, it's pretty clear where Sakurai's priorities rely on games that he worked on, i mean Ultimate only further supports this, with the Assist Trophies being Knuckle Joe and Chef Kawasaki, both debuted in games that Sakurai had a hand in developing on as opposed to say, Adeleine, Taranza, or Susie. Even the boss from the Kirby series proves this. He chose Marx, a character that debued in Super Star, as opposed to someone more recent like Magolor, or Queen Sectionia, or someone more prominent like Dark Matter (who is the main antagonist of his own entire trilogy, as opposed to Marx who is the main antagonist of ONE mode of Super Star) Aside from music and Final Smash nods, Sakurai really doesn't use a lot of Post-Air Ride or Shinichi Shimomura (director of DL 2, 3 and 64) content in general, and any examples of it being used are exceptions to the norm rather than being...............well, the norm.

This isn't me just trying to be pessimistic for the sake of it, because it's really common among Japanese game developers to limit themselves to stuff they created, as opposed to using stuff created by others (which in know sounds really stupid seeing how Sakurai works with multiple franchises that he never worked on before Smash such as Sonic, Castlevania, Mega Man and the like, but hey i never said this line of reasoning made much sense, i just say that it exists) Franchises like KH and MK are also examples of this mentality.
 

fogbadge

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That sounds stupid i know, but it is the truth. Sakurai may have created Kirby, but he hasn't had a major hand in the franchise since Air Ride. (the latter of which inspired Smash Run from 3DS)
are we discounting adviser on amazing mirror as not major? or have i got my release order mixed up
 

Darktheumbreon

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well they did find terry in a museum
As they should! It's honestly surprising it took Ultimate for SNK to get content in Smash, considering Fatal Fury was one of the main inspirations for smash as a more "party-like" fighting game.
 
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fogbadge

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As they should! It's honestly surprising it took Ultimate for SNK to get content in Smash, considering Fatal Fury was one of the main inspirations for smash as a more "party-like" fighting game.
see this is why terry confuses me. at first everyone was treating him like he extremely obscure and now a lot of people are treating him like the opposite. what did i miss between those two things?

of course fatal fury was an inspiration to smash, did you see sakurai talking about it? probably inspired a lot of his work on some level
 

Darktheumbreon

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see this is why terry confuses me. at first everyone was treating him like he extremely obscure and now a lot of people are treating him like the opposite. what did i miss between those two things?

of course fatal fury was an inspiration to smash, did you see sakurai talking about it? probably inspired a lot of his work on some level
I mean, it's kind of weird to think Fatal Fury is just some "obscure franchise" when Fatal Fury / King of Fighters is an incredibly known fighting game. Some Smash players believe only Street Fighter, anime-ish (FighterZ) and Mortal Kombat exist for whatever reason, and in rare cases, Tekken or Soul Calibur. It'd be like calling Simon or Richter obscure. Sure, to some fans, maybe, but it's really hard to like a game like Smash Bros. without having some knowledge of platformers or fighting games alike.

That being said, the obscurity argument can be weightless at times. There are people who think Steve and Alex are obscure picks for Smash Bros., like Minecraft somehow isn't one of the most well known games in existence, relatively close to being as recognizable as a Pokémon would be.
 

fogbadge

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I mean, it's kind of weird to think Fatal Fury is just some "obscure franchise" when Fatal Fury / King of Fighters is an incredibly known fighting game. Some Smash players believe only Street Fighter, anime-ish (FighterZ) and Mortal Kombat exist for whatever reason, and in rare cases, Tekken or Soul Calibur. It'd be like calling Simon or Richter obscure. Sure, to some fans, maybe, but it's really hard to like a game like Smash Bros. without having some knowledge of platformers or fighting games alike.

That being said, the obscurity argument can be weightless at times. There are people who think Steve and Alex are obscure picks for Smash Bros., like Minecraft somehow isn't one of the most well known games in existence, relatively close to being as recognizable as a Pokémon would be.
i wasnt arguing against terry, itd be pointless now, i was expressing my confusion at how the vast majority of the smash community seemed to switch views on him seemingly out of nowhere. wouldnt it be nice if the hat goomba crowd could do that?
 

Guynamednelson

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i wasnt arguing against terry, itd be pointless now, i was expressing my confusion at how the vast majority of the smash community seemed to switch views on him seemingly out of nowhere. wouldnt it be nice if the hat goomba crowd could do that?
Everyone goes from literally who to pop culture icon once they're a Smash fighter.
 

Guynamednelson

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i think theres one or two smash characters a few people would say arent
Ah, right: Dark Pit and Corrin.
i mean to be fair most characters become much more iconic when they join smash bros
True, but there are people here who wouldn't admit millions had played Banjo-Kazooie until they joined Smash, for example.
 

Darktheumbreon

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Ah, right: Dark Pit and Corrin.
Considering Fire Emblem's stellar viewpoint by plenty of Smash fans, that's not surprising. Though it is strange: Corrin is actually one of the most unique of the Fire Emblem cast, in addition to having a solid enough moveset to justify their existence in the game. And yet, one of the first fighters people say they would remove is Corrin. I know there's the general idea that Corrin's addition is a living ad akin to Roy and Marth in Melee, but I think people love to forget that Fire Emblem has been a big thing in Japan. It's like getting mad that Pokémon has a ton of fighters, though i can see why you would when most of them come from one generation.

Personally, no dlc smash character yet has gotten me to go explore the fighter's franchise other than BK, which I already planned to do. I think it's just the pop culture potential that makes pretty any smash fighter popular. Even Corrin and Byleth.
 

Guynamednelson

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though i can see why you would when most of them come from one generation.
Even then it still has one missing major icon. Being named Darktheumbreon, I'm sure you can figure it out.
a living ad akin to Roy and Marth in Melee
Only Roy was an ad. Marth was added because Japan wanted him. Plus, Fates is controversial among FE fans, Smash fighter or not.
 

SharkLord

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Considering Fire Emblem's stellar viewpoint by plenty of Smash fans, that's not surprising. Though it is strange: Corrin is actually one of the most unique of the Fire Emblem cast, in addition to having a solid enough moveset to justify their existence in the game. And yet, one of the first fighters people say they would remove is Corrin. I know there's the general idea that Corrin's addition is a living ad akin to Roy and Marth in Melee, but I think people love to forget that Fire Emblem has been a big thing in Japan. It's like getting mad that Pokémon has a ton of fighters, though i can see why you would when most of them come from one generation.
The problem with Corrin is less their moveset and more their character. They were an unknown in the West when they were added, and when Fates got more exposure they became a divisive character in an already-divisive game. Even their unique moveset is divisive to some; Their drill-arms aren't very dragon-y and they only make use of the chainsaw aspect of their sword all of once, and only when the attack is charging. Doesn't help that Corrin was annoyingly high-tier in 4 and disappointingly low-tier in Ultimate. Corrin just doesn't scratch any itches for a lot of people, and they'd rather just have someone else over them, like Lyn, Anna, or Tiki.
 

fogbadge

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Considering Fire Emblem's stellar viewpoint by plenty of Smash fans, that's not surprising. Though it is strange: Corrin is actually one of the most unique of the Fire Emblem cast, in addition to having a solid enough moveset to justify their existence in the game. And yet, one of the first fighters people say they would remove is Corrin. I know there's the general idea that Corrin's addition is a living ad akin to Roy and Marth in Melee, but I think people love to forget that Fire Emblem has been a big thing in Japan. It's like getting mad that Pokémon has a ton of fighters, though i can see why you would when most of them come from one generation.

Personally, no dlc smash character yet has gotten me to go explore the fighter's franchise other than BK, which I already planned to do. I think it's just the pop culture potential that makes pretty any smash fighter popular. Even Corrin and Byleth.
well in my case it cause i find corrin such a boring character
 

Darktheumbreon

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Even then it still has one missing major icon. Being named Darktheumbreon, I'm sure you can figure it out.

Only Roy was an ad. Marth was added because Japan wanted him. Plus, Fates is controversial among FE fans, Smash fighter or not.
Kinda sad there is no Eevee in smash, or that none of the evolutions are assists or anything. Also, generation representation is horrible imo. Gen 2 has a semi-clone, gen 3 has nothing, gen 4 actually has a decent fighter, gen 5 lost a fighter due to time (iirc Zoroark was briefly planned), gen 6 is fine, and gen 7 fills a niche. Imagine if Kirby just represented a few core games, then used minor content from latter titles just because the first few games are more appealing to gaming history (supposedly)? Oh, wait....

Well, I meant Fire Emblem in general, since both Marth and Roy kinda feel like 64's bonus characters. No stage, and not much other content besides one main theme that plays on a Zelda stage.


The problem with Corrin is less their moveset and more their character. They were an unknown in the West when they were added, and when Fates got more exposure they became a divisive character in an already-divisive game. Even their unique moveset is divisive to some; Their drill-arms aren't very dragon-y and they only make use of the chainsaw aspect of their sword all of once, and only when the attack is charging. Doesn't help that Corrin was annoyingly high-tier in 4 and disappointingly low-tier in Ultimate. Corrin just doesn't scratch any itches for a lot of people, and they'd rather just have someone else over them, like Lyn, Anna, or Tiki.
Oh no, yeah, I get the reason why people do not like Corrin, but I'd rather a bunch of hated Fire Emblem characters with unique movesets over whatever Chrom's amalgamation of a moveset is supposed to be. For a franchise that's supposedly really popular, Fire Emblem in Smash really seems to rely on Marth's bloodline for representation.

Ultimate's team nerfed Corrin way too hard. Like, you have to rely on jank moves to kill, while struggling to get anything done with specials that are way too laggy. I mean, did side b really need to have Corrin lazily lay on the ground for that long? I like Corrin's moveset a lot, and wish they were still at least decent, but the endlag on some of their useful moves kills all momentum for actual competitive prowess.

Small sidenote: it's a little strange that Corrin fights like a duel wielding blade user. Like you said, dragon arms/legs are more often than not is just a second sword. Look at nair, it's a prime example.

well in my case it cause i find corrin such a boring character
I don't disagree with that. I haven't seen a character with such botched victory animations. Well, maybe it's personal bias for the franchise, but Steve's are the only that really bug me a little more since they're so bland.


Have we explored the idea of Bandana Waddle Dee using some attacks that generic Waddle Dees use sometimes? I think a few of those could work well.
 

Guynamednelson

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iirc Zoroark was briefly planned
I'm not sure if it was ever planned to be a fighter, but it was definitely meant to try and be the new Lucario. Only it failed because Lucario was much easier to get in DP.
Have we explored the idea of Bandana Waddle Dee using some attacks that generic Waddle Dees use sometimes? I think a few of those could work well.
Eh, some people are gonna complain about it being a mook anyway, might as well.
 

SharkLord

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waddle dees don't really attack in most games though, kinda just walk around peacefully
There are a decent amount of variations across the series to draw from if need be, though. There's archers from Epic Yarn, axe-wielding lumberjacks from Triple Deluxe, missile launchers from Epic yarn as well (And could be considered repurposed for the walkers in Planet Robobot), etc. Bandana Dee can easily support a moveset of his own, but if we need a composite Waddle Dee moveset, I think we can make it work.
 

One-Winged Bagel

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Despite being a generic species itself, Piranha Plant borrowed from tons of other kinds of Plants as is. Even Petey. It's not a perfect example, but characters borrow from ones within the series a lot. Ness and Lucas use their teammate's moves. Zelda uses 3 out of 4 specials from Link. Only her Down B is an actual move she can do herself normally. Retroactively Skyward Sword makes her using the Goddess spells actually logical, but that's a funny coincidence. Ganondorf and the three Links generally use their own moves where possible outside of clone-only situations. Young Link cannot do a downstab, as Adult Link is much more clearly the one from Zelda II, and other adult Links couldn't do that, at least most of the ones in 3D till TP(I think SS and BOTW too?). Toon Link can do a downstab in Minish Cap, though. To note on Ganondorf, his animations and abilities also relate to his artwork, so that's how loose they can be with stuff. He literally is trying to punch Link in the OOT artwork(so the idea he won't punch is literally incorrect. He clearly will. He does so in-game in WW against Toon Link too, liek a boxer).

I could go on, but that's just two universes that shows how liberties are fine to take. Now, a regular Waddle Dee using Bandanna Waddle Dee's skills(and I don't mean as an alt costume) would be ridiculous in comparison. Why use that when you have a clear character with more defined abilities? There's a lot of alts that just plain don't work too. While I disagree on the idea you couldn't make a few ARMS characters as alts, there's no denying they do have specific abilities nobody else can do. So the separation is obviously the most popular one, and it makes sense why. Liberties are fine, but there is a limit too. The limit is subjective, of course.

It wouldn't be remotely odd for Bandanna Waddle Dee, who literally is a Waddle Dee regardless as its species, to use a few moves that the species does. If you need easy moveset filler that also flows well, you look in all kinds of directions, honestly.
 

fogbadge

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I don't disagree with that. I haven't seen a character with such botched victory animations. Well, maybe it's personal bias for the franchise, but Steve's are the only that really bug me a little more since they're so bland.
well i meant personality wise really but yeah

Zelda uses 3 out of 4 specials from Link. Only her Down B is an actual move she can do herself normally.
no shes never been able to summon a phantom out of thin air
 

One-Winged Bagel

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no shes never been able to summon a phantom out of thin air
I should've specified I meant Transform in context. I didn't mention Sheik cause she acts like a Ninja and uses at least two canon moves otherwise(Deku Nut for her Up B and Transform for her Down B).

Phantom Knight is weird cause it's canon in its own way. It is a thing specific to Toon Zelda, though every Zelda is a reincarnation. It's thinly similar to her ability to ask others for help, via telepathy, if you massively stretch it, anyway. Not that it'd be unbelievable for her to use magic to get help from others, but obviously it doesn't fit that well. I've been all for getting rid of it to use something a bit closer to her abilities. Hell, she has a sword in TP so she could've did a similar Slash with that at the time. Not so much her ALTTP/ALBW design in Ultimate, though. ...Though that is the games where she telepathically asks Link for help, but again, as I said, it's not used remotely in any meaningful way in Smash as a concept here. The only use of her psychic abilities is Telekinesis, where she is able to lift an enemy for her grab.
 

Darktheumbreon

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I should've specified I meant Transform in context. I didn't mention Sheik cause she acts like a Ninja and uses at least two canon moves otherwise(Deku Nut for her Up B and Transform for her Down B).

Phantom Knight is weird cause it's canon in its own way. It is a thing specific to Toon Zelda, though every Zelda is a reincarnation. It's thinly similar to her ability to ask others for help, via telepathy, if you massively stretch it, anyway. Not that it'd be unbelievable for her to use magic to get help from others, but obviously it doesn't fit that well. I've been all for getting rid of it to use something a bit closer to her abilities. Hell, she has a sword in TP so she could've did a similar Slash with that at the time. Not so much her ALTTP/ALBW design in Ultimate, though. ...Though that is the games where she telepathically asks Link for help, but again, as I said, it's not used remotely in any meaningful way in Smash as a concept here. The only use of her psychic abilities is Telekinesis, where she is able to lift an enemy for her grab.
Well, it's implied that the Smash versions of the Zelda characters are unique incarnations that resemble the ones they look like rather than being actually them, which correlates well with the idea that all of the fighters are not the "real" versions of themselves. Simply toys/trophies/embodiments of said characters.



I always found it funny that people seem to think BWD would be a "wasted dlc" because he's a mook that became a real character. There are plenty of characters in smash that are easily mooks in Smash Bros as is though, so why is that an issue to some? The 7 alternate Yoshis could easily be entire different Yoshi from the Yoshi (I wish Mario games actually game the main versions of generics unique names or looks!). Pikachu and Pichu are literal generics that have real characters as alternate costumes (Libre and Spike-earred). I don't see why BWD or a Waddle Dee in general would be weird.

Edit: I know you can argue that Yoshi and the like are the main protagonists of their games, unlike BWD who is one of the main playables. But that would be like arguing that Charizard isn't supposed to be your main Pokemon in Red/FireRed. There are options for a reason, to fit all playstyles.
 
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fogbadge

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Well, it's implied that the Smash versions of the Zelda characters are unique incarnations that resemble the ones they look like rather than being actually them, which correlates well with the idea that all of the fighters are not the "real" versions of themselves. Simply toys/trophies/embodiments of said characters.



I always found it funny that people seem to think BWD would be a "wasted dlc" because he's a mook that became a real character. There are plenty of characters in smash that are easily mooks in Smash Bros as is though, so why is that an issue to some? The 7 alternate Yoshis could easily be entire different Yoshi from the Yoshi (I wish Mario games actually game the main versions of generics unique names or looks!). Pikachu and Pichu are literal generics that have real characters as alternate costumes (Libre and Spike-earred). I don't see why BWD or a Waddle Dee in general would be weird.

Edit: I know you can argue that Yoshi and the like are the main protagonists of their games, unlike BWD who is one of the main playables. But that would be like arguing that Charizard isn't supposed to be your main Pokemon in Red/FireRed. There are options for a reason, to fit all playstyles.
the amount of effort people put into try to argue against certain characters is absurd. its much easier to accept that theres a chance that it will happen, scream in rage if it does happen and then get on with life.
 

Darktheumbreon

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the amount of effort people put into try to argue against certain characters is absurd. its much easier to accept that theres a chance that it will happen, scream in rage if it does happen and then get on with life.
It's kinda sad, because Smash speculation nowadays boils down to wanting the characters on every influencer's top 10 list, and absolutely manhunting anyone who wants other characters. Heck, even with the Kirby franchise, I often see people say "Oh, BWD is okay, but XYZ or 123 would make more sense because reasons that are subjective". Or worse, "what can that character do anyway?". It hits the hardest when a character is potentially out of the running, because speculation becomes flaming the character for not being important enough for Smash apparently. A big example was :ultsteve:, where a really weird meme and the fanrule of "one character per third party" was circulating the most as reasons as to why Minecraft didn't get in at first. If Smash was made by the people who think fighters must fulfill a super specific criteria, Ultimate would only have 30 or so characters, probably less than that.


In some ways, I'll be glad when the dlc is over, since people will stop acting like the game is a contest of who has Nintendo's favor the most. I'm still excited for the final 3, but it's a pain to see how cutthroat it has become for potential candidates if they are not the top 5 fan poll picks.
 

fogbadge

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It's kinda sad, because Smash speculation nowadays boils down to wanting the characters on every influencer's top 10 list, and absolutely manhunting anyone who wants other characters. Heck, even with the Kirby franchise, I often see people say "Oh, BWD is okay, but XYZ or 123 would make more sense because reasons that are subjective". Or worse, "what can that character do anyway?". It hits the hardest when a character is potentially out of the running, because speculation becomes flaming the character for not being important enough for Smash apparently. A big example was :ultsteve:, where a really weird meme and the fanrule of "one character per third party" was circulating the most as reasons as to why Minecraft didn't get in at first. If Smash was made by the people who think fighters must fulfill a super specific criteria, Ultimate would only have 30 or so characters, probably less than that.


In some ways, I'll be glad when the dlc is over, since people will stop acting like the game is a contest of who has Nintendo's favor the most. I'm still excited for the final 3, but it's a pain to see how cutthroat it has become for potential candidates if they are not the top 5 fan poll picks.
indeed there will be an odd sense of relief when its over
 

Otoad64

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It's kinda sad, because Smash speculation nowadays boils down to wanting the characters on every influencer's top 10 list, and absolutely manhunting anyone who wants other characters. Heck, even with the Kirby franchise, I often see people say "Oh, BWD is okay, but XYZ or 123 would make more sense because reasons that are subjective". Or worse, "what can that character do anyway?". It hits the hardest when a character is potentially out of the running, because speculation becomes flaming the character for not being important enough for Smash apparently. A big example was :ultsteve:, where a really weird meme and the fanrule of "one character per third party" was circulating the most as reasons as to why Minecraft didn't get in at first. If Smash was made by the people who think fighters must fulfill a super specific criteria, Ultimate would only have 30 or so characters, probably less than that.


In some ways, I'll be glad when the dlc is over, since people will stop acting like the game is a contest of who has Nintendo's favor the most. I'm still excited for the final 3, but it's a pain to see how cutthroat it has become for potential candidates if they are not the top 5 fan poll picks.
honestly i'm not even trying to predict who is next because i know i'll be wrong anyway
 

RetrogamerMax

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It's kinda sad, because Smash speculation nowadays boils down to wanting the characters on every influencer's top 10 list, and absolutely manhunting anyone who wants other characters. Heck, even with the Kirby franchise, I often see people say "Oh, BWD is okay, but XYZ or 123 would make more sense because reasons that are subjective". Or worse, "what can that character do anyway?". It hits the hardest when a character is potentially out of the running, because speculation becomes flaming the character for not being important enough for Smash apparently. A big example was :ultsteve:, where a really weird meme and the fanrule of "one character per third party" was circulating the most as reasons as to why Minecraft didn't get in at first. If Smash was made by the people who think fighters must fulfill a super specific criteria, Ultimate would only have 30 or so characters, probably less than that.


In some ways, I'll be glad when the dlc is over, since people will stop acting like the game is a contest of who has Nintendo's favor the most. I'm still excited for the final 3, but it's a pain to see how cutthroat it has become for potential candidates if they are not the top 5 fan poll picks.
People will play this stupid game again when Smash 6 speculation starts. They will once again, rally behind a certain group of characters that almost everyone thinks is likely at the moment. That part of speculation will never change as sad as that sounds.
 

Doc Monocle

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I find the waddle dee species, by in large, uninteresting, but when you show me this, and then offer a perk of being able to engage multiple opponents at once with a unique, spear-wielding character that reminds us of, but not annoys us with a famous set of generic characters, I suddenly find myself wanting a waddle dee in Smash Bros. I support.
 
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