Bandana Dee, the Legend of Dee - Our Star Ally as DeeLC?! (v(- ' ' -)>↑

Darktheumbreon

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Personally I'd love if Meta Knight or King Dedede had true adventures instead of the non-canon "hard mode time trials" things they keep getting. Kirby usually being the character who truly saves the say everytime (with help sometimes) is getting to levels of Goku old. They love to imply that other "Kirby" exist on popstar besides the usual pink one or Meta Knight...so where are they when the world is being destroyed? Hell, Gooey is technically as powerful as Kirby, and I hate that their excuse for him not being around often is because he's stupid.
 
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Personally I'd love if Meta Knight or King Dedede had true adventures instead of the non-canon "hard mode time trials" things they keep getting. Kirby usually being the character who truly saves the say everytime (with help sometimes) is getting to levels of Goku old. They love to imply that other "Kirby" exist on popstar besides the usual pink one or Meta Knight...so where are they when the world is being destroyed? Hell, Gooey is technically as powerful as Kirby, and I hate that their excuse for him not being around often is because he's stupid.
On the one hand I agree that it would be cool to see the other Kirby character have a more prominent role at the same time I still think Kirby should be front and center in Kirby games.

I think Zelda games actually do a really good job of this, in SS we see Impa hold off Ghirahim and Groose use that cannon thingy, in OoT Zelda shoots light arrows to create openings, in BotW the champions and the current heroes all help Link fight the different bosses/Ganon and Zelda is shown to be a major BA. So instead of saying I want to see Dedede save the day and defeat the final boss, maybe see Dedede come in and land a major blow to destroy a weapon giving Kirby trouble or Meta Knight helping to shoot down something with his ship.
 

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On the one hand I agree that it would be cool to see the other Kirby character have a more prominent role at the same time I still think Kirby should be front and center in Kirby games.

I think Zelda games actually do a really good job of this, in SS we see Impa hold off Ghirahim and Groose use that cannon thingy, in OoT Zelda shoots light arrows to create openings, in BotW the champions and the current heroes all help Link fight the different bosses/Ganon and Zelda is shown to be a major BA. So instead of saying I want to see Dedede save the day and defeat the final boss, maybe see Dedede come in and land a major blow to destroy a weapon giving Kirby trouble or Meta Knight helping to shoot down something with his ship.
I agree.
Kirby should still be the star of his own series.
If they wanted to expand beyond playable Kirby, then they should just make Meta Knight and/or King Dedede (and perhaps Bandana Boi) playable in Story Mode as well, just at different times to keep everyone involved with the plotline.
 
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Mogisthelioma

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I personally think that while Kirby games are easily more recognizable with Kirby as the star, spinoff games starring other characters with minor cameos from Kirby should happen just to see how it works. If it pays off, this should give HAL an opportunity to really expand on the potential and personalities of their characters.
 

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Being the madman I am, I have decided to compile all of the Kirby based Sakurai bias evidence I could find into one big list. Also, I decided to categorize everything based on fighters, Spirits, Music etc. Feel free to add anything I missed!

Fighters- There are only three Kirby fighters, Kirby, Dedede, and Meta Knight, all of which are from Sakurai games. Kirby seems to be based on his super star design, which explains why his eyes are so small in this game. Dedede's design is based on his classic look, which is why he appears much bigger and goofier in Smash than he does in the modern Kirby games.

Music- The only non Sakurai affiliated remixes in Smash are 02 and the Squeak Squad theme, which is essentially nothing compared to the countless remixes from Adventure and Super Star. Every modern song is lazily ripped straight from the source games.

Stages- Dreamland, Green Greens, Fountain of Dreams, Halberd, Dreamland GB, and Great Cave Offensive are all from Sakurai games. There are absolutely NO stages from non Sakurai games.

Items/Assist Trophies- Knuckle Joe, Kawasaki, Nightmare Wizard, and all of the Kirby series items are all from Sakurai games.

Bosses- Marx is the only Kirby boss and is from Super Star. His design in Ultimate completely ignores any changes to his appearance in SS Ultra. An example of this is how Ultra changed the ends of Marx's wings from spearhead shapes to heart shapes. However, Ultimate ignored this alteration and made them simple spearheads again.

Spirits- While there are a few modern Kirby spirits, many of them don't even have a spirit battle and must be unceremoniously bought at a shop. Bandana Dee is also just an enhanced waddle dee in this game, which is an inexcusable sin.

Trophies- The only modern Kirby trophies were Magolor, Galacta Knight, and the Lor Starcutter. The way you unlock them can also make it very easy to miss them.
 
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Mogisthelioma

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Being the madman I am, I have decided to compile all of the Sakurai bias evidence I could find into one big list. Also, I decided to categorize everything based on fighters, Spirits, Music etc. Feel free to add anything I missed!

Fighters- There are only three Kirby fighters, Kirby, Dedede, and Meta Knight, all of which are from Sakurai games. Kirby seems to be based on his super star design, which explains why his eyes are so small in this game. Dedede's design is based on his classic look, which is why he appears much bigger and goofier in Smash than he does in the modern Kirby games.

Music- The only non Sakurai affiliated remixes in Smash are 02 and the Squeak Squad theme, which is essentially nothing compared to the countless remixes from Adventure and Super Star. Every modern song is lazily ripped straight from the source games.

Stages- Dreamland, Green Greens, Fountain of Dreams, Halberd, Dreamland GB, and Great Cave Offensive are all from Sakurai games. There are absolutely NO stages from non Sakurai games.

Items/Assist Trophies- Knuckle Joe, Kawasaki, Nightmare Wizard, and all of the Kirby series items are all from Sakurai games.

Bosses- Marx is the only Kirby boss and is from Super Star. His design in Ultimate completely ignores any changes to his appearance in SS Ultra. An example of this is how Ultra changed the ends of Marx's wings from spearhead shapes to heart shapes. However, Ultimate ignored this alteration and made them simple spearheads again.

Spirits- While there are a few modern Kirby spirits, many of them don't even have a spirit battle and must be unceremoniously bought at a shop. Bandana Dee is also just an enhanced waddle dee in this game, which is an inexcusable sin.

Trophies- The only modern Kirby trophies were Magolor, Galacta Knight, and the Lor Starcutter. The way you unlock them can also make it very easy to miss them.
Yeah, you nailed it. You might want to post this on the Sakurai bias thread in the General Discussion, too!
 
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Personally I'd love if Meta Knight or King Dedede had true adventures instead of the non-canon "hard mode time trials" things they keep getting. Kirby usually being the character who truly saves the say everytime (with help sometimes) is getting to levels of Goku old. They love to imply that other "Kirby" exist on popstar besides the usual pink one or Meta Knight...so where are they when the world is being destroyed? Hell, Gooey is technically as powerful as Kirby, and I hate that their excuse for him not being around often is because he's stupid.
Those Kirbies have been retconned out after KSS. Which is just as well, seeing as that would be weird. Also, Galacta Knight is too much of an *** to actually be willing to help.

That said, it's likely that most Kirby devs didn't want to use other devs' characters out of respect, seeing as Sak and Shimomura never used either of their non-main character Kirby creations before Shimomura disappeared along with his characters. In some cases, it's like they were making their own Kirby universes (the most blatant cases being Squeak Squad and Mass Attack, which shamelessly cribbed stuff from the anime).

Hell, it's a wonder Kumazaki willingly wanted to bring back as many Kirby characters as possible, even those from a guy who may or may not be dead!

On the one hand I agree that it would be cool to see the other Kirby character have a more prominent role at the same time I still think Kirby should be front and center in Kirby games.

I think Zelda games actually do a really good job of this, in SS we see Impa hold off Ghirahim and Groose use that cannon thingy, in OoT Zelda shoots light arrows to create openings, in BotW the champions and the current heroes all help Link fight the different bosses/Ganon and Zelda is shown to be a major BA. So instead of saying I want to see Dedede save the day and defeat the final boss, maybe see Dedede come in and land a major blow to destroy a weapon giving Kirby trouble or Meta Knight helping to shoot down something with his ship.
Though it is neat that Kirby did got help from Meta Knight for defeating Star Dream by being provided with the Halberd, otherwise there wasn't much that Kirb would do there.
 
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Acemania

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Yeah, you nailed it. You might want to post this on the Sakurai bias thread in the General Discussion, too!
Thank you very much! I didn't think this would come out very good considering I was freakishly tired while making it.

This might be a crazy question, but do you guys think Sakurai will ever go back to directing the Kirby series after he retires from Smash?
The fact that he himself decided to leave HAL and quit directing Kirby games means he likely has no interest in doing so. Plus, I don't think our man Kumazaki would be willing to give up his position.
 

Dorayaki

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Almost forgot Sakurai being Kirby series director, if so that's kinda lame for him to not bring in more Kirby content when they still lack in Smash now.

Without NOA bringing Doki Doki Panic over here as Super Mario Bros. 2, Bob-Ombs, Shy Guys, and Birdo wouldn't be in the Mario games. Could you imagine Super Mario 64 without the iconic Bob-Omb Battlefield and King Bob-Omb? Or to a lesser extent Paper Mario without Shy Guys Toy Box? The series would be very different without those enemies.
Again, I mean DDP as own independent retro game title and own franchise, not its influence on Mario franchise. In Smash bros this is a feasible way to promote Wart as a representive of his own game (tho, technically the original cast like Imajin would be candidates as wel
 
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Darktheumbreon

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Those Kirbies have been retconned out after KSS. Which is just as well, seeing as that would be weird. Also, Galacta Knight is too much of an *** to actually be willing to help.

That said, it's likely that most Kirby devs didn't want to use other devs' characters out of respect, seeing as Sak and Shimomura never used either of their non-main character Kirby creations before Shimomura disappeared along with his characters. In some cases, it's like they were making their own Kirby universes (the most blatant cases being Squeak Squad and Mass Attack, which shamelessly cribbed stuff from the anime).

Hell, it's a wonder Kumazaki willingly wanted to bring back as many Kirby characters as possible, even those from a guy who may or may not be dead!
Wait...those Kirbies...Kirbys...Kirby??? Last appeared in Kirby Battle Royale tho. Shadow Kirby still exists if they don't, so it'd be cool to get a game based on him, maybe with unique abilities or something.
 

Mogisthelioma

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Wait...those Kirbies...Kirbys...Kirby??? Last appeared in Kirby Battle Royale tho. Shadow Kirby still exists if they don't, so it'd be cool to get a game based on him, maybe with unique abilities or something.
They really need to expand on the whole parallel/shadow worlds in Kirby more. There's a lot of untapped potential there.
 
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Probably not. I'd bet my money on another KI game, maybe he'll revive King K. Rool further and direct a DK game, or something else.
I could him directing another Kid Icarus game, but no way I could see him directing the DKC series. Retro will definitely do the next game to complete the trilogy and probably onwards after that as well. I'm also very positive K. Rool is going to return as the main antagonist in DKCR 3 because of him being in Smash.

Is Geno a spin off character?
Yep, he is. But he is a unique case because he was one of the main protagonists and one of Mario's very first partners in the very first Mario RPG game. This game started it all, there would be no Paper Mario or Mario & Luigi games without Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars. So in that regard, I would say that gives Geno enough importance to get in the roster.

But he isn't as worthy of a spot though as Toad, Bandana Dee, Dixie Kong, or Waluigi who are really the last Nintendo all stars left that are not yet in the roster.

Almost forgot Sakurai being Kirby series director, if so that's kinda lame for him to not bring in more Kirby content when they still lack in Smash now.


Again, I mean DDP as own independent retro game title and own franchise, not its influence on Mario franchise. In Smash bros this is a feasible way to promote Wart as a representive of his own game (tho, technically the original cast like Imajin would be candidates as wel
But if Nintendo declares Bob-Ombs, Shy Guys, and Birdo as Mario characters now, wouldn't they declare Wart and the other Doki Doki Panic enemies as Mario characters too? Yes they already do because Wart and Mouser are spirits in Ultimate and they are categorized as Mario characters.
 
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Wait...those Kirbies...Kirbys...Kirby??? Last appeared in Kirby Battle Royale tho. Shadow Kirby still exists if they don't, so it'd be cool to get a game based on him, maybe with unique abilities or something.
They really need to expand on the whole parallel/shadow worlds in Kirby more. There's a lot of untapped potential there.
Oh, right, forgot about that game. Even then, they only exist so there can be 4 players that can play without needing to relearn moves every time they pick someone. Not that Battle Royale even factors into anything anyway...

That said, the mirror/shadow Kirby strikes to me as someone that's reluctant at fighting, and that's fine. I don't expect anything to be done with him.

But if Nintendo declares Bob-Ombs, Shy Guys, and Birdo as Mario characters now, wouldn't they declare Wart and the other Doki Doki Panic enemies as Mario characters too? Yes they already do because Wart and Mouser are spirits in Ultimate and they are categorized as Mario characters.
Technically yes. Imajin and his family are probably blocked by rights issues though, since they were mascots for Fuji TV.
 

Mogisthelioma

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Yep, he is. But he is a unique case because he was one of the main protagonists and one of Mario's very first partners in the very first Mario RPG game. This game started it all, there would be no Paper Mario or Mario & Luigi games without Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars. So in that regard, I would say that gives Geno enough importance to get in the roster.

But he isn't as worthy of a spot though as Toad, Bandana Dee, Dixie Kong, or Waluigi who are really the last Nintendo all stars left that are not yet in the roster.
I'll say this again, but Geno falls under this "25 fighters rule" that I have--he'd be cool to have in Smash, but I can think of at least 25 characters I would rather see in Smash first than him.
 

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I'll say this again, but Geno falls under this "25 fighters rule" that I have--he'd be cool to have in Smash, but I can think of at least 25 characters I would rather see in Smash first than him.
Agreed.
Although, I would like him in just so his fans could be happy.
Other than that, I couldn't care less about his inclusion... unless he has a cool moveset I guess.
 

Pikmin-ism42

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Honestly I simply think Geno doesn't have enough qualities to be in. Yes, he's popular, which is very important, but that's literally it.
I'm mostly indifferent to Geno's inclusion, but I think that's a wee bit harsh. He's one of the more important characters from SMRPG, making him a pretty good rep for the Mario RPG games, which hasn't seen all that much representation when it comes to playable fighters. He's also got a fun character design, combined with his pre-existing abilities from SMRPG they could easily come up with a nice unique moveset.

But yeah, I don't think the Bandana Dee thread is the best place to discuss Geno. Recently I've been noticing a lot of support threads resorting to attacking other character suggestions & their respective fanbases, I guess that's what DLC season does to some folk?
 

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I'm mostly indifferent to Geno's inclusion, but I think that's a wee bit harsh. He's one of the more important characters from SMRPG, making him a pretty good rep for the Mario RPG games, which hasn't seen all that much representation when it comes to playable fighters. He's also got a fun character design, combined with his pre-existing abilities from SMRPG they could easily come up with a nice unique moveset.

But yeah, I don't think the Bandana Dee thread is the best place to discuss Geno. Recently I've been noticing a lot of support threads resorting to attacking other character suggestions & their respective fanbases, I guess that's what DLC season does to some folk?
It happens during every major speculation period, to some degree. Not helping matters is that we know that there are only four spots left for DLC thanks to the Fighter Pass, we don't know if there's going to be a second season, and this is the only Smash Bros. game that we'll be getting for the Switch's lifespan - situations for certain characters (whether they're first party or third) could be completely different next time around, and the game's roster could change significantly in the next game. (Sakurai's said that "Everyone is here" was a bit of a challenge)
 

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It happens during every major speculation period, to some degree. Not helping matters is that we know that there are only four spots left for DLC thanks to the Fighter Pass, we don't know if there's going to be a second season, and this is the only Smash Bros. game that we'll be getting for the Switch's lifespan - situations for certain characters (whether they're first party or third) could be completely different next time around, and the game's roster could change significantly in the next game. (Sakurai's said that "Everyone is here" was a bit of a challenge)
Not to mention that some of the bigger questions of the DLC have yet to be answered including: "Do Spirits "deconfirm" fighters for DLC?" or "Will the DLC only consist of 3rd Party characters?" and whatnot.
Smash speculation gets to be pretty tiresome without specific knowledge of what's to come.
In fact, Smash seems to be one of the only game in which your wildest dreams may come true (ala Joker), yet simpler and more doable things hardly make a presence (like our dear Bandana Boy).
 
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Hmm, not sure if anyone has brought this up, but apparently Piranha Plant costs $4.99, whilst the Fighter Pass characters cost $5.99. So, either the stage and music adds to that extra 1$, or 1st Party characters cost $4.99, and 3rd Party cost $5.99, and there won't be any 1st Party characters. I actually think a combination of both, with this first wave being all third party, but also the extra dollar contributing to songs and stages. There's also Smash 4's DLC, with the first party characters being cheaper than the third parties.

Edit:
Another thing I've noticed people mentioning lately is that characters like Inkling and K. Rool had Mii Costumes in Smash 4, whilst Isabelle and Dark Samus had Assist Trophy roles in Smash 4, heck, Isabelle had both. Bandana Dee... had neither of these. Do you guys think this hurts his chances for a Wave 2 or even Smash 6 whenever it happens?
 
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JCKirbs

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Hmm, not sure if anyone has brought this up, but apparently Piranha Plant costs $4.99, whilst the Fighter Pass characters cost $5.99. So, either the stage and music adds to that extra 1$, or 1st Party characters cost $4.99, and 3rd Party cost $5.99, and there won't be any 1st Party characters. I actually think a combination of both, with this first wave being all third party, but also the extra dollar contributing to songs and stages. There's also Smash 4's DLC, with the first party characters being cheaper than the third parties.

Edit:
Another thing I've noticed people mentioning lately is that characters like Inkling and K. Rool had Mii Costumes in Smash 4, whilst Isabelle and Dark Samus had Assist Trophy roles in Smash 4, heck, Isabelle had both. Bandana Dee... had neither of these. Do you guys think this hurts his chances for a Wave 2 or even Smash 6 whenever it happens?
For a single character and literally nothing else, that price point for Piranha Plant is quite weird in my view. $2.99 or even $3.99 max would've made more sense for something that was once a free pre-order bonus. I'm not entirely sure if such price points would directly correlate to each other, though.

Also, regarding the second point, we have to remember that those characters weren't chosen because they were once in Smash Bros. Ridley, K. Rool, and the Belmonts were chosen because of the Ballot, Inklings were obligatory, but Sm4sh was too soon for them, and characters like Dark Samus and Chrom were picked because of their popularity, presumably because they missed their chances as playable characters in Sm4sh and people started to advocate for them. Isabelle was probably a special case, as she was probably supposed to join DS and Chrom as popular-requested Echoes, until they spoke of making her a unique fighter. Not to mention that her inclusion tied-in with the Animal Crossing Switch teaser.

All-in-All, it's still honestly hard to tell who will join the battle next, especially since characters like Waluigi and Isaac, (characters who have long been in Smash) still have their assigned roles as Assist Trophies. Not to mention that characters who never made an appearance before, like Incineroar, can still automatically join as a fighter.
 
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For a single character and literally nothing else, that price point for Piranha Plant is quite weird in my view. $2.99 or even $3.99 max would've made more sense for something that was once a free pre-order bonus. I'm not entirely sure if such price points would directly correlate to each other, though.

Also, regarding the second point, we have to remember that those characters weren't chosen because they were once in Smash Bros. Ridley, K. Rool, and the Belmonts were chosen because of the Ballot, Inklings were obligatory, but Sm4sh was too soon for them, and characters like Dark Samus and Chrom were picked because of their popularity, presumably because they missed their chances as playable characters in Sm4sh and people started to advocate for them. Isabelle was probably a special case, as she was probably supposed to join DS and Chrom as popular-requested Echoes, until they spoke of making her a unique fighter. Not to mention that her inclusion tied-in with the Animal Crossing Switch teaser.

All-in-All, it's still honestly hard to tell who will join the battle next, especially since characters like Waluigi and Isaac, (characters who have long been in Smash) still have their assigned roles as Assist Trophies. Not to mention that characters who never made an appearance before, like Incineroar, can still automatically join as a fighter.
To add on to what you're saying, the fact remains that the same things that warrant a character being an assist trophy also make them a good addition for a fighter, being popular. Dark Samus/Isabelle were popular so they got added as assist trophies and then because they were still popular got added as fighters. So while being in Smash might not have necessarily helped them get in as fighters this time, it was most likely an indicator for recognized popularity by the Smash team.

So to that end FancySmash FancySmash I would say that the BWD's lack of being an assist trophy just means that we haven't had direct acknowledgement from Sakurai that he sees BWD as popular, and I would say that hurts our chances a little. Especially as a Kirby rep which has by and large suffered from a lack of acknowledgement of the later game's popularity.
 
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and characters like Dark Samus and Chrom were picked because of their popularity, presumably because they missed their chances as playable characters in Sm4sh and people started to advocate for them.
To add on to what you're saying, the fact remains that the same things that warrant a character being an assist trophy also make them a good addition for a fighter, being popular. Dark Samus/Isabelle were popular so they got added as assist trophies and then because they were still popular got added as fighters. So while being in Smash might not have necessarily helped them get in as fighters this time, it was most likely an indicator for recognized popularity by the Smash team.
I still think Dark Samus and Chrom were chosen because of the Smash Ballot because they were deconfirmed in the last game just like Ridley. They probably did good, but nowhere near as good as Bayonetta, Ridley, K. Rool, and Castlevania so they received Echo status.
 
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