The_Altrox
Smash Lord
So delete the old one? okay.
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Balanced Brawl Standard Release
- Thread starter Amazing Ampharos
- Start date
- Status
I'd like to mention Falco.
His d-throw was changed as everyone knows to be more constant, but no longer having a guaranteed chaingrab is only one side of the coin. Falco can realistically read opponents and land DACUS or similar at much higher %s, giving him a bit more accessible KO power. (Which has always been a problem with Falco...)
His d-throw was changed as everyone knows to be more constant, but no longer having a guaranteed chaingrab is only one side of the coin. Falco can realistically read opponents and land DACUS or similar at much higher %s, giving him a bit more accessible KO power. (Which has always been a problem with Falco...)
The_Altrox
Smash Lord
Oh lord...
I entered some costume files, but now my game is in a state of unending loading. I think having two RSEB files (old and new) could be causing issues, or I loaded something wrong. If I can't fix this, I'm just gonna delete the frills
I entered some costume files, but now my game is in a state of unending loading. I think having two RSEB files (old and new) could be causing issues, or I loaded something wrong. If I can't fix this, I'm just gonna delete the frills
GunmasterLombardi
Smash Champion
Ok, cool thanks.
Lokee
Smash Apprentice
Im pretty sure you should only have one RSBE01.gct file. and make sure all the files are in the right folders.
The Milk Monster
Smash Champion
Falco is actually kind of fun to play again, considering you don't have to rely on dthrow chain grabs.
And bthrow is nice now, sets up almost perfectly for bair.
And bthrow is nice now, sets up almost perfectly for bair.
Lokee
Smash Apprentice
Thats like how I feel about DDD. While his grab game is still beast. Now when you start the match you dont have to think "GOTTA GET THAT GRAB". Also love the D-tilt followup from the Dthrow Now.
The Milk Monster
Smash Champion
Oh yeah, I pretty much secondary D3 in Balanced, considering my D3 isn't ****ty now cause I hate chainthrowing.
Hyrus
Smash Journeyman
I was wondering about Bowser's Dair. It has enough of a startup, the range & disjointedness don't exist, and its landing lag is huge. While the damage/knockback were improved, the move is still exceptionally difficult to land; even if you do, it rarely gets half of its hits in. What makes it such an outstanding change?
I think you're seriously underrating just how good Lucas's pivot grab is. If you are positioning yourself right with it, you will not be punished. The range is really huge, obviously way more than Marth has, I'm not sure where you were getting that. Lucas also has some KO potential with dthrow. With no DI on Final Destination, it kills Mario at 141% which is honestly not that bad.
Avoiding fsmash is easier said than done. Maybe it's because I used Ness so much in melee, but I find it pretty easy to find the openings to hit with it. Just wait for your opponent to do something Lucas can beat with fsmash (this is a lot of stuff) and then abuse the disjoint to smack them. It's not like you just spam it, and it's not like the opponent is always or even that frequently in a neutral position when you hit then with it in the first place. They aren't going to be able to just counter it on reaction; sometimes it's literally not possible (you have them in a "checkmate" situation), and in many other circumstances, it's just unreasonable and not even good people can do it. If the opponent is being super conservative and not giving you any windows, it means they aren't going for any opportunities either so you can probably easily just rack the damage up until something like dthrow kills. Lucas's other two smashes kill anyway (even though they're generally pretty hard to land) so maybe if they're working too hard to avoid fsmash they're setting themselves up perfectly for the other smashes. I've seen people do such a good job of jumping way over fsmash that they make the far worse mistake of jumping right into usmash... Really though, in practice, they just aren't going to be able to avoid fsmash without making sacrifices worse than the reward. Lucas's kill situation is hardly optimal, but it's really not that bad either, especially given the way he's a high damage character all around.
The issue with Lucas's dair in standard Brawl is that it's a great move until you fight someone who can SDI. It's not hard to SDI out of it, and then Lucas is in trouble since that was one of his few good tools that is just being countered like that. That was why we changed it in the first place; the new version is more useful for general application if you don't hit with all of it, and stacking the damage on multi-hit moves to be more focused toward the last hit is one way to make them harder to SDI and thus more likely to do more damage in the long run.
Lucas's bair is now general purpose kinda useful. It was a pretty awful move in standard Brawl. There's not much to say about it, but that's the story.
About Pk Freeze, yeah it's not something you can land very often in singles (I never use it at all). However, it's actually somewhat passable in doubles. I wasn't talking about it since I wasn't talking about doubles, but you do have to keep that in mind if you want to talk about Pk Freeze.
As per Marth, here's the thing. Marth is going to outrange you because he's Marth and he outranges almost everyone. However, do notice that if you are in his face, Marth has almost no options against Lucas. I mean, let's say Lucas is standing right on top of Marth practically. What does Marth do? He either blocks, grabs, or uses Dolphin Slash. None of his other attacks are really useful here. Grabbing loses to jab, blocking is fairly sketchy since it puts him more at your mercy, and Marth will be terrified to use Dolphin Slash since if you predict that and block/spotdodge it, you get a free usmash (notice Lucas specific positive #1 in this matchup: Lucas has one of the best punishments in the game for whiffed Dolphin Slash, greatly increasing the risk of that move). Marth can win handily if he just keeps you out and abuses his range, but as is the case with most characters, you aren't going to let him do that uncontested. You're going to punish Marth for whiffing stuff (and Lucas, like everyone, has tons of stuff he can do to Marth in a non-neutral position), and you are going to fight to get in Marth's face where his options suck and all of his moves do less damage anyway (because up close they can't tipper!). Meanwhile, Marth is going to have a more annoying time than usual approaching Lucas because of Lucas's grab range. A lot of spacings on aerials that are safe on block against most of the cast are not safe on block against Lucas. Jumping at him with aerials in general is a pain because of that pivot grab that has almost no drawbacks to just throwing out. I can't give a deep assessment of this matchup, but I can say pretty easily that Lucas has plenty going for him in it, and the good things Marth has against Lucas are things he has going for him in most matchups. Lucas has good mobility and decent range; it's hard to see why Marth would be worse for him than for most others.
As per jab locks and whatnot, I'm skeptical of how often Lucas is really going to land jab locks against opponents who know Lucas's tricks and such in the first place. Even if it was actually a generally applicable part of Lucas's game, it would just be turning Lucas into a gimmick character and is pretty horrible design. Jab locks are pretty high on the list of "this really had to go" from standard Brawl, and I doubt Lucas is really that much worse for it.
To directly answer the inquiry of why Lucas is suddenly no longer so bad (and he was pretty bad), well, there's a lot to consider. The biggest thing is grab release; contrary to what some Lucas mains believe, everything that works on Ness also works on Lucas out of this (I've tested it fairly thoroughly, and Ness and Lucas has essentially identical ground breaks). Worse, Lucas has a pretty bad jump break too (unlike Ness). So, in random matchups where opponents have some follow up to a ground break, they also probably have some follow up to a jump break (such as regrab!). This was never explored too deeply in standard Brawl since Lucas wasn't really good enough to justify the effort, but I have a feeling if Lucas ever became a serious threat in the mainstream metagame you'd start seeing Lucas get destroyed out of grabs in some pretty novel and ugly ways. What we already know is the main reason Lucas has a nearly unwinnable matchup with Marth (no, Lucas is not going to wiggle out of that chaingrab against a competent Marth); this whole ugly business is just gone in Balanced Brawl. That is a really big buff, and given the nature of this abuse that is so effective against Lucas (demoralizing, frustrating, generally ridiculous), it should be pretty exciting to not have to worry about it.
Now for the way the buffs really matter. Lucas's extra damage on jab matters a lot. With as much as Lucas can get away with using jab, that damage will translate to pretty big totals over the course of a match. That faster spotdodge matters a lot; it just makes it easier and safer for him to bait and punish which is a game winner. Pk Fire is still not the best projectile, but it hurts enough to be worth it. A fresh Pk Fire does 12% in Bbrawl. That's a big hit; whatever the opponent is doing to avoid it had better be really consistent if they want to come out ahead with that strategy. If you sneak it in at tricky times (which is definitely possible), it's suddenly a lot better as well. The buffs to Lucas's other moves just give him a bit of a more well-rounded game; none of them are particularly big, but taken as a whole they're pretty helpful. Meta Knight and Snake coming down a bit certainly doesn't upset Lucas either.
I mean, I can only talk from my own experiences in the end. I've seen Lucas used a fair amount, and he tends to do quite well for himself. He reminds me a bit of Bowser in the sense that I don't think his game was ever really that bad. His main problem was assorted abuse just ending his fun before he could even get started, and then once he got past that he just wasn't quite rewarding enough so it's not like there was much incentive to even try to counter the abuse. Once the abuse is gone and he starts giving a bit higher payout for doing basically the same things, I think Lucas really starts to shine (I also think Bowser shines, but I seem to be in a fairly small minority of people who think Bbrawl Bowser is a force). I don't mean to just try to shut down anyone disagreeing, but I do think Lucas is being sold way short here. It's not like he's some trash character who can't answer simple disjoint zoning; that sort of claim is just 100% contradictory to all play I've seen as well as intuition (if Lucas actually couldn't do anything to Marth, it would probably be the case that a lot of characters would have basically nothing they could do to Marth as well which we know not to be the case).
---
As per Bowser and dair, well it's like adding a new move to Bowser's moveset, right? Really though, the highlighting wasn't really very scientific; it was mostly highlighted because Bowser got a lot of help but that was the main thing that could be pointed to as a single change (since Bowser was the benefactor of a "many small changes" approach). From what I've seen, his dair still isn't something he uses all that often, but it is worth using and is a really big threat if he gets a clean hit so the opponent has to be watching out that much more than before. Usually that seems to translate to getting a few partial hits for some decent but not particularly noteworthy damage and the opponent being somewhat eager to just avoid being under Bowser which is the real gem.
Avoiding fsmash is easier said than done. Maybe it's because I used Ness so much in melee, but I find it pretty easy to find the openings to hit with it. Just wait for your opponent to do something Lucas can beat with fsmash (this is a lot of stuff) and then abuse the disjoint to smack them. It's not like you just spam it, and it's not like the opponent is always or even that frequently in a neutral position when you hit then with it in the first place. They aren't going to be able to just counter it on reaction; sometimes it's literally not possible (you have them in a "checkmate" situation), and in many other circumstances, it's just unreasonable and not even good people can do it. If the opponent is being super conservative and not giving you any windows, it means they aren't going for any opportunities either so you can probably easily just rack the damage up until something like dthrow kills. Lucas's other two smashes kill anyway (even though they're generally pretty hard to land) so maybe if they're working too hard to avoid fsmash they're setting themselves up perfectly for the other smashes. I've seen people do such a good job of jumping way over fsmash that they make the far worse mistake of jumping right into usmash... Really though, in practice, they just aren't going to be able to avoid fsmash without making sacrifices worse than the reward. Lucas's kill situation is hardly optimal, but it's really not that bad either, especially given the way he's a high damage character all around.
The issue with Lucas's dair in standard Brawl is that it's a great move until you fight someone who can SDI. It's not hard to SDI out of it, and then Lucas is in trouble since that was one of his few good tools that is just being countered like that. That was why we changed it in the first place; the new version is more useful for general application if you don't hit with all of it, and stacking the damage on multi-hit moves to be more focused toward the last hit is one way to make them harder to SDI and thus more likely to do more damage in the long run.
Lucas's bair is now general purpose kinda useful. It was a pretty awful move in standard Brawl. There's not much to say about it, but that's the story.
About Pk Freeze, yeah it's not something you can land very often in singles (I never use it at all). However, it's actually somewhat passable in doubles. I wasn't talking about it since I wasn't talking about doubles, but you do have to keep that in mind if you want to talk about Pk Freeze.
As per Marth, here's the thing. Marth is going to outrange you because he's Marth and he outranges almost everyone. However, do notice that if you are in his face, Marth has almost no options against Lucas. I mean, let's say Lucas is standing right on top of Marth practically. What does Marth do? He either blocks, grabs, or uses Dolphin Slash. None of his other attacks are really useful here. Grabbing loses to jab, blocking is fairly sketchy since it puts him more at your mercy, and Marth will be terrified to use Dolphin Slash since if you predict that and block/spotdodge it, you get a free usmash (notice Lucas specific positive #1 in this matchup: Lucas has one of the best punishments in the game for whiffed Dolphin Slash, greatly increasing the risk of that move). Marth can win handily if he just keeps you out and abuses his range, but as is the case with most characters, you aren't going to let him do that uncontested. You're going to punish Marth for whiffing stuff (and Lucas, like everyone, has tons of stuff he can do to Marth in a non-neutral position), and you are going to fight to get in Marth's face where his options suck and all of his moves do less damage anyway (because up close they can't tipper!). Meanwhile, Marth is going to have a more annoying time than usual approaching Lucas because of Lucas's grab range. A lot of spacings on aerials that are safe on block against most of the cast are not safe on block against Lucas. Jumping at him with aerials in general is a pain because of that pivot grab that has almost no drawbacks to just throwing out. I can't give a deep assessment of this matchup, but I can say pretty easily that Lucas has plenty going for him in it, and the good things Marth has against Lucas are things he has going for him in most matchups. Lucas has good mobility and decent range; it's hard to see why Marth would be worse for him than for most others.
As per jab locks and whatnot, I'm skeptical of how often Lucas is really going to land jab locks against opponents who know Lucas's tricks and such in the first place. Even if it was actually a generally applicable part of Lucas's game, it would just be turning Lucas into a gimmick character and is pretty horrible design. Jab locks are pretty high on the list of "this really had to go" from standard Brawl, and I doubt Lucas is really that much worse for it.
To directly answer the inquiry of why Lucas is suddenly no longer so bad (and he was pretty bad), well, there's a lot to consider. The biggest thing is grab release; contrary to what some Lucas mains believe, everything that works on Ness also works on Lucas out of this (I've tested it fairly thoroughly, and Ness and Lucas has essentially identical ground breaks). Worse, Lucas has a pretty bad jump break too (unlike Ness). So, in random matchups where opponents have some follow up to a ground break, they also probably have some follow up to a jump break (such as regrab!). This was never explored too deeply in standard Brawl since Lucas wasn't really good enough to justify the effort, but I have a feeling if Lucas ever became a serious threat in the mainstream metagame you'd start seeing Lucas get destroyed out of grabs in some pretty novel and ugly ways. What we already know is the main reason Lucas has a nearly unwinnable matchup with Marth (no, Lucas is not going to wiggle out of that chaingrab against a competent Marth); this whole ugly business is just gone in Balanced Brawl. That is a really big buff, and given the nature of this abuse that is so effective against Lucas (demoralizing, frustrating, generally ridiculous), it should be pretty exciting to not have to worry about it.
Now for the way the buffs really matter. Lucas's extra damage on jab matters a lot. With as much as Lucas can get away with using jab, that damage will translate to pretty big totals over the course of a match. That faster spotdodge matters a lot; it just makes it easier and safer for him to bait and punish which is a game winner. Pk Fire is still not the best projectile, but it hurts enough to be worth it. A fresh Pk Fire does 12% in Bbrawl. That's a big hit; whatever the opponent is doing to avoid it had better be really consistent if they want to come out ahead with that strategy. If you sneak it in at tricky times (which is definitely possible), it's suddenly a lot better as well. The buffs to Lucas's other moves just give him a bit of a more well-rounded game; none of them are particularly big, but taken as a whole they're pretty helpful. Meta Knight and Snake coming down a bit certainly doesn't upset Lucas either.
I mean, I can only talk from my own experiences in the end. I've seen Lucas used a fair amount, and he tends to do quite well for himself. He reminds me a bit of Bowser in the sense that I don't think his game was ever really that bad. His main problem was assorted abuse just ending his fun before he could even get started, and then once he got past that he just wasn't quite rewarding enough so it's not like there was much incentive to even try to counter the abuse. Once the abuse is gone and he starts giving a bit higher payout for doing basically the same things, I think Lucas really starts to shine (I also think Bowser shines, but I seem to be in a fairly small minority of people who think Bbrawl Bowser is a force). I don't mean to just try to shut down anyone disagreeing, but I do think Lucas is being sold way short here. It's not like he's some trash character who can't answer simple disjoint zoning; that sort of claim is just 100% contradictory to all play I've seen as well as intuition (if Lucas actually couldn't do anything to Marth, it would probably be the case that a lot of characters would have basically nothing they could do to Marth as well which we know not to be the case).
---
As per Bowser and dair, well it's like adding a new move to Bowser's moveset, right? Really though, the highlighting wasn't really very scientific; it was mostly highlighted because Bowser got a lot of help but that was the main thing that could be pointed to as a single change (since Bowser was the benefactor of a "many small changes" approach). From what I've seen, his dair still isn't something he uses all that often, but it is worth using and is a really big threat if he gets a clean hit so the opponent has to be watching out that much more than before. Usually that seems to translate to getting a few partial hits for some decent but not particularly noteworthy damage and the opponent being somewhat eager to just avoid being under Bowser which is the real gem.
rPSIvysaur
[ɑɹsaɪ]
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2009
- Messages
- 16,415
Honestly, having one viable kill move is not good. In fact I can't think of any other character in BBrawl who doesn't have more than one viable kill move. Hell, even Sonic has f-smash and b-air (still pretty horrible in start up though). Lucas has f-smash and nothing until 160.
BTW even if you do place yourself above Lucas for an U-smash if he tries there's 30 frames of start up to get you self out of there and prepare yourself to punish with you kill moves. Hell charge your smash attack it has 50 frames of ending lag...
Mit
Smash Ace
I think the biggest buff to Bowser's dair is that it's always safe on hit. Since it's out for so long and has so many hits, there are many situations where you can throw it out there, like during an airdodge by your opponent, and there's pretty much no way they're escaping it. It can poke on weakening shields as well. And hell, if you manage to get all the hits in, it's pretty devastating.
Also, Lucas' killing situation is not worse than Sonic's, even if Sonic has two moves >_> Atleast when you get an opponent to 160 your options open up. Sonic's don't.
After reading through the situation though, I would support maybe his uair killing a bit earlier, but not too much earlier, and apparently some Lucas mains would be against that as they'd rather juggle with it.
Also, Lucas' killing situation is not worse than Sonic's, even if Sonic has two moves >_> Atleast when you get an opponent to 160 your options open up. Sonic's don't.
After reading through the situation though, I would support maybe his uair killing a bit earlier, but not too much earlier, and apparently some Lucas mains would be against that as they'd rather juggle with it.
rPSIvysaur
[ɑɹsaɪ]
- Joined
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Nah, we're just saying that buffing u-air would change stage counterpicks. And in BBrawl, since there is increased stage viablity, would be good.
I just typed up THREE long posts on Lucas. Each time it failed to submit and erased it. GAAAAAH.
Edit: And yet this submitted... Time to edit my thoughts in.
Everyone seems to be overlooking d-tilt and dair.
D-tilt went from a terrible move with a lock to an amazing move without a lock. It's a 6% move that hits on frame 3 and gives a 2-frame advantage... This is a character with a 2-frame jab combo that does 12%. The only way to get out of d-tilts is to shield, against a character who gets easily gets 13%+ on grabs whose throws can KO. Add the whole "chance-of-trip-that-allows-free-kill-move" thing and you've got something to use all the time.
Dair sets up across a much wider range of %s now. Sure, they can tech roll it, but SDI no longer auto-foils's Lucas's plans. Last BBrawl game I played as Lucas, 2 of my kills came from dair-double-dtilt-fsmash.
Edit: And yet this submitted... Time to edit my thoughts in.
Everyone seems to be overlooking d-tilt and dair.
D-tilt went from a terrible move with a lock to an amazing move without a lock. It's a 6% move that hits on frame 3 and gives a 2-frame advantage... This is a character with a 2-frame jab combo that does 12%. The only way to get out of d-tilts is to shield, against a character who gets easily gets 13%+ on grabs whose throws can KO. Add the whole "chance-of-trip-that-allows-free-kill-move" thing and you've got something to use all the time.
Dair sets up across a much wider range of %s now. Sure, they can tech roll it, but SDI no longer auto-foils's Lucas's plans. Last BBrawl game I played as Lucas, 2 of my kills came from dair-double-dtilt-fsmash.
Stealth Raptor
Smash Legend
learn to copy paste son
Lokee
Smash Apprentice
OK. Lets discuss
along with the Lucas/Ness NOW GO!!!!!
along with the Lucas/Ness NOW GO!!!!!
HailCrest
Smash Journeyman
Also, Dair knocks the opponent down more at lower percentages, but so much less at higher percentages. We're not going to knock a Luigi down into the ground at 90%, and in vBrawl that was a heavyweight's percent when he was going to be knocked down. I guess dtilt lock really is gone.
Lucas' grab is horrible, period. Dthrow may kill at 140%, but it's hard for Lucas to get in a grab, let alone avoid punishment for it.
Any Marth who would let Lucas into the range where we can screw him up isn't a good Marth. All Marths know how to camp with their swords, and since they're exactly the same as they were in vBrawl, I highly doubt this is going to change.
Well, I guess the whole point of bBrawl is to get rid of all locks and infinites, and I guess Lucas' only viable kill option below 160% is one of them, even though it only works at high percents and is therefore far from a 0-death.
Fsmash has only the range of other average smashes. It's a killer, but any Marth who knows how to space isn't going to get hit by it, and also it's too slow for a kill move especially in a metagame where a lot of other people have had their moves pumped with steroids. To name a few: Fire Wolf, Pikmin Chain, Marth Fsmash, Mario's smashes, Bowser Dair (angle 270? srsly?), Yoshi Dsmash, Link's grounded UpB and arrows zomgwtf, Sonic Spring Jump, Falcon Dive, Charizard's Glide Attack.
So, about Lucas' tilts...
Lucas' grab is horrible, period. Dthrow may kill at 140%, but it's hard for Lucas to get in a grab, let alone avoid punishment for it.
Any Marth who would let Lucas into the range where we can screw him up isn't a good Marth. All Marths know how to camp with their swords, and since they're exactly the same as they were in vBrawl, I highly doubt this is going to change.
Well, I guess the whole point of bBrawl is to get rid of all locks and infinites, and I guess Lucas' only viable kill option below 160% is one of them, even though it only works at high percents and is therefore far from a 0-death.
Fsmash has only the range of other average smashes. It's a killer, but any Marth who knows how to space isn't going to get hit by it, and also it's too slow for a kill move especially in a metagame where a lot of other people have had their moves pumped with steroids. To name a few: Fire Wolf, Pikmin Chain, Marth Fsmash, Mario's smashes, Bowser Dair (angle 270? srsly?), Yoshi Dsmash, Link's grounded UpB and arrows zomgwtf, Sonic Spring Jump, Falcon Dive, Charizard's Glide Attack.
So, about Lucas' tilts...
Kirby is really cut and dry to me. Kirby has always been a good character with mostly fair matchups, and the few cases where it was a bit stacked against Kirby are now a bit better for Kirby. Kirby's powers are more useful now in general thanks to the changes to Copy which spices up Kirby's gameplay a little bit. Kirby is one of the few characters to retain an actual chaingrab as well, but it only works at pretty low percentages in all matchups so it's okay. Kirby feels like a mid-tier to me that is very faithful to the original design, not much to say about it really.
Donkey Kong saw a lot of care in-development, but he's also pretty cut and dry. He was always good other than chainthrows, and the chainthrows are gone. I think his new cargo dthrow may be a little overgood if used properly (chucking people low off-stage), but it's the best mechanics change we could implement for it to make cargo dthrow -> dtilt lock on walls not work. I don't have a very good feel on his specific matchups, and he could fall into a pretty wide array of tier positions. I do, however, remain fairly convinced he's mostly balanced.
Ice Climbers are the stupidest character to design around. They can still chaingrab, but there are no recorded cases of anyone doing a 0-death in Balanced Brawl. I think they're still good, probably more well rounded really, but hopefully they are less gimmicky and less polarized in terms of both matchups and stages. If anyone has real, deep experience with this character, Thinkaman and I would be overjoyed to hear about it.
Donkey Kong saw a lot of care in-development, but he's also pretty cut and dry. He was always good other than chainthrows, and the chainthrows are gone. I think his new cargo dthrow may be a little overgood if used properly (chucking people low off-stage), but it's the best mechanics change we could implement for it to make cargo dthrow -> dtilt lock on walls not work. I don't have a very good feel on his specific matchups, and he could fall into a pretty wide array of tier positions. I do, however, remain fairly convinced he's mostly balanced.
Ice Climbers are the stupidest character to design around. They can still chaingrab, but there are no recorded cases of anyone doing a 0-death in Balanced Brawl. I think they're still good, probably more well rounded really, but hopefully they are less gimmicky and less polarized in terms of both matchups and stages. If anyone has real, deep experience with this character, Thinkaman and I would be overjoyed to hear about it.
Lokee
Smash Apprentice
It might be difficult to get the IC mains to BBrawl seeing as their so feared infinities are now gone, similar to the other chaingrabbers and the nerfed characters. However the incentive of a vastly more diverse playstyle may win them over. Instead of ALWAYS focusing on getting that grab which I gives the ICs the impression of a one trick pony. While Id rather hear something like "man that Ice Shot is annoying" or "gotta learn to manuver around that Blizzard". "Not dear GOD IF I GET GRABBED ITS OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN." but yeah we'll see how the mains react to the changes.
Im also glad that you focused some time to Kirby's Copy Abilities seeing as that's what makes him very unique and I would love to see more use of the move in play.
Ive alawys felt DK was the better of the heavy characters. He has great pokes, relatively fast, great range and killing potenial. Has a few assortment of neat tricks to add to his experience eg: Cargo, Headbutt, Giant PAWNCH!! Only thing that sucks really was this verical recovery and in vBrawl he was basically Screwed by the gayness that occupied the metagame.
In BBrawl I want to see other Heavies rise to the occasion as they are the victims in many a fighter while the fast and furious always had the upper hand. This applies to Ganon and Bowser in particular.
Im also glad that you focused some time to Kirby's Copy Abilities seeing as that's what makes him very unique and I would love to see more use of the move in play.
Ive alawys felt DK was the better of the heavy characters. He has great pokes, relatively fast, great range and killing potenial. Has a few assortment of neat tricks to add to his experience eg: Cargo, Headbutt, Giant PAWNCH!! Only thing that sucks really was this verical recovery and in vBrawl he was basically Screwed by the gayness that occupied the metagame.
In BBrawl I want to see other Heavies rise to the occasion as they are the victims in many a fighter while the fast and furious always had the upper hand. This applies to Ganon and Bowser in particular.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Depending on getting those grabs is the mark of a bad IC player,
Granted, ICs have set-ups for it now in vBrawl, the point is that the grab turns what would otherwise be ICs most vulnerable area location into their strongest, so now opponents can't exploit it, it's a perfect example of a threat being greater then it's execution, because the threat of being grabbed honestly changes behavior a great deal more then actually being grabbed.
HailCrest
Smash Journeyman
Yeah, unlimited replays are allowed on bbrawl
I don't think so, bBrawl isn't exactly popular
I don't think so, bBrawl isn't exactly popular
Whoa whoa whoa, back it up everybody.
What? IC infinites chaingrabs are not gone. They require frame-perfect execution now, but they aren't gone.
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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His frame advantages in general are somewhat underwhelming, and his approach is really limited, otherwise he's a good example of a balanced heavyweight.
I still maintain that Ganondorf must be given a means to either deal with poking, or to safely scout spotdodge on reaction.
Bowser on the other hand is pretty good at punishing spotdodges, but he's also pretty bad at dealing with pokes and camping. Bowser does have better pseudo pokes and his Jab kinda is a good poke option which helps him in midrange, but I think he arguably does worse against projectile camping, since his air game is more laggy, and because he's a larger target. Ganon also has the Wizkick for plowing through stuff, while Bowser really can't do that.
Like, my friend in my dorm who mains Pit. He's not very good, and I can very consistently destroy him with Ganondorf just because I'm a better player with good mindgames. It's much harder for me to do anything to him when I'm Bowser even though I can basically read my friend like a book and know exactly how he's going to camp me.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
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And the war continues.
Eh, I must say that I'm inclined to believe Lucas is actually better than Ness now. Not by much though.
Does Lucas really need a fair that kills.
Ness is okay, but the more I play the more I see that he needs a better killer. His Fsmash (unlike Game and Watch) really is bad. I'd rather have it KO weaker AND tone down it's damage just to have it have a way better release. But yeah Ness and he doesn't exactly NEED the fsmash (change) but it would be more helpful.
Honestly I appreciate the buffs: (yo-yo's aren't useless anymore, if you land PK flash your ****** and PK fire is WAY better)
But I realize that Ness isn't exactly stellar at killing.
Eh, I must say that I'm inclined to believe Lucas is actually better than Ness now. Not by much though.
Does Lucas really need a fair that kills.
Ness is okay, but the more I play the more I see that he needs a better killer. His Fsmash (unlike Game and Watch) really is bad. I'd rather have it KO weaker AND tone down it's damage just to have it have a way better release. But yeah Ness and he doesn't exactly NEED the fsmash (change) but it would be more helpful.
Honestly I appreciate the buffs: (yo-yo's aren't useless anymore, if you land PK flash your ****** and PK fire is WAY better)
But I realize that Ness isn't exactly stellar at killing.
The_Altrox
Smash Lord
werid.
I got texture hacks to work, but it all reverts back to normal if I take the card out. I'm just gonna have to leave it in, I guess. BBrawl is still normal, but the textures stop when the card is out.
hmm...
I got texture hacks to work, but it all reverts back to normal if I take the card out. I'm just gonna have to leave it in, I guess. BBrawl is still normal, but the textures stop when the card is out.
hmm...
CarVac
Smash Journeyman
@PKNintendo:
I don't know if I'd want his fsmash to be faster. I think I'd rather make it so that the sourspot is at least stronger than Lucas's stick. My biggest worry when I know I'm gonna hit with the bat is that it's not gonna sweetspot and the opponent is hardly gonna go anywhere.
I don't know if I'd want his fsmash to be faster. I think I'd rather make it so that the sourspot is at least stronger than Lucas's stick. My biggest worry when I know I'm gonna hit with the bat is that it's not gonna sweetspot and the opponent is hardly gonna go anywhere.
The Milk Monster
Smash Champion
.....Because the textures are on the card, therefore, if the card is out, it has no textures to load.
My sarcasm button isn't working today, so I'll cut to the chase: B-throw?
I get maybe 6/10 kills as Ness with b-throw, and 3/10 with uair because they were obsessively avoiding grabs. (The remaining 10% is misc bairs, dairs, nairs)
I seriously consider Ness one of the most reliable killers in the game, comparable to Fox.
The yo-yo fix was just a minor adjustment to make them not worthless in some matchups. PK Flash buff was frankly kind of a "meh, why not" buff, sort of the like the buff to Peach Bomber. The PK Fire buff is kinda nice, but it's still unsafe and doesn't redefine Ness to focus on it.
Honestly, all that is just icing on the 14% d-throw cake.
Have I mentioned how awesome throws are?
Did you know what with the f-smash buff, a fulled charged Ness f-smash tipper is now the single most damaging hitbox of the standard character movesets?
Think of Ness f-smash like Lucas u-smash, or a reflector. It isn't that the move is good, it's the fact that it makes people too scared to do certain risky things to you because you can punish them very, very well.
JOE!
Smash Hero
2 things:
1) why is it that Link 9or is it all tether characters?) cannot grab airborne opponents?
2)A2, you keep saying everyone and their mom has bad approaches and options, who would you say has the ideal options (as of now) in BBrawl just from frame data/etc alone?
1) why is it that Link 9or is it all tether characters?) cannot grab airborne opponents?
2)A2, you keep saying everyone and their mom has bad approaches and options, who would you say has the ideal options (as of now) in BBrawl just from frame data/etc alone?
PKNintendo
Smash Master
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Point taken.
I don't know, he's okay at it.
The downthrow buff does make damage building easier.
Fthrow: Spacer
Backthrow: Killer
Downthrow: Damage racker
Upthrow: LOLZ throw
I concede that damage buff makes it a move to not **** with. However, I'd love to have it as a viable move. GaW is a character who's Fsmash is definition of GET HIT AND YOU DIE.
Lucas Fsmash has that nice balance of startup/range too.
JOE!
Smash Hero
@Steeler:
actually, yoshi can...but does he count as a tether?
actually, yoshi can...but does he count as a tether?
Ness's fsmash is a viable move. Predict an aerial, step back, space fsmash to punish landing lag works in what I suspect to be a decent number of matchups (I know it's a viable tactic against Mr. Game & Watch). It's also his best answer to some silly tactics; I remember someone claiming Ness had trouble dealing with Mr. Game & Watch spamming dtilt in place and I only laughed at them because Ness just walks up and fsmashes that for a massive reward. I mean, his fsmash is hardly the centerpoint of his moveset (overall one of his less valuable moves), but it's still useful enough that I'd call it a viable move. Being slow is the only really bad thing about it actually; it's still really high range disjointed, and it's pretty ridiculously powerful with those nice bonus reflection properties. Given the other qualities of Ness's design in Brawl, him having an amazing fsmash like he had in melee would probably be overpowered and would detract from his design (did you know: Ness's fsmash in melee outranged Marth's entire moveset on top of being fast and powerful).
Also, as an aside, if you think that about Mr. Game & Watch's fsmash, what do you think about his usmash? Mr. Game & Watch and Ness are pretty different characters anyway; a big part of Mr. Game & Watch is having those over the top on power smashes since he doesn't have something like Ness's bthrow that is so reliable.
As a second aside, Ness's uthrow is a good throw; it's just that he doesn't use it much because his other throws are just amazing. It still has situational usefulness; if the opponent won't go off-stage/walk-off killed from fthrow, won't die to bthrow, and dthrow is stale, uthrow is still pretty rewarding (better than, say, Wario gets out of his throws in general in Bbrawl!).
Anyway, I could go on about Lucas some more, but I'm just going to explain Pk Freeze in teams since this is a pretty simple thing to explain (Pk Flash will have some of the same ideas). Pk Freeze is really devastating when it hits, and Lucas can use it from fairly protected areas (like the lower part of the shine gate on Delfino Plaza). It's really easy to avoid, but as someone being targetted by it, you have to avoid it (eating the hit is essentially never an acceptable option). Usually, when you avoid it, you don't get to punish Lucas except by moving closer to him so he can't keep doing it. Consider this in teams. Lucas is off on the side, and Lucas's teammate is in-between him and both opponents. Lucas uses Pk Freeze and targets the closer opponent while his teammate rushes in. Most of the easy evasive maneuvers to avoid Pk Freeze will be punished by Lucas's teammate so, even though the move didn't hit, it did effective damage by letting Lucas's teammate land something. It's fairly reasonable the opponent will make a mistake and let the reverse happen; it's really great for Lucas's team if, in avoiding an attack from Lucas's teammate, the opponent actually gets hit by Pk Freeze. Lucas will keep using Pk Freeze until the opponents break through his teammate and start chasing him down to force him to stop at which point Lucas will take a defensive stance while his teammate harries the other team from the rear. It's not something you base your entire team strategy around, but sometimes positions will emerge in which it's a good tactic to try. The move is not ignorable in teams at all, and it's definitely way more dangerous there than in singles.
An alternate use in teams is to heal Ness or another Lucas or to fill Mr. Game & Watch's bucket, of course.
Also, just to stir the pot a bit, I think the most reliable killer (not necessarily effective but reliable) is Zelda. On that note, what do people think of Zelda & Sheik; any interesting experiences? Please try to remain calm about our insistence on designing them as a team, but experience information about any style of use is of use regardless.
Also, as an aside, if you think that about Mr. Game & Watch's fsmash, what do you think about his usmash? Mr. Game & Watch and Ness are pretty different characters anyway; a big part of Mr. Game & Watch is having those over the top on power smashes since he doesn't have something like Ness's bthrow that is so reliable.
As a second aside, Ness's uthrow is a good throw; it's just that he doesn't use it much because his other throws are just amazing. It still has situational usefulness; if the opponent won't go off-stage/walk-off killed from fthrow, won't die to bthrow, and dthrow is stale, uthrow is still pretty rewarding (better than, say, Wario gets out of his throws in general in Bbrawl!).
Anyway, I could go on about Lucas some more, but I'm just going to explain Pk Freeze in teams since this is a pretty simple thing to explain (Pk Flash will have some of the same ideas). Pk Freeze is really devastating when it hits, and Lucas can use it from fairly protected areas (like the lower part of the shine gate on Delfino Plaza). It's really easy to avoid, but as someone being targetted by it, you have to avoid it (eating the hit is essentially never an acceptable option). Usually, when you avoid it, you don't get to punish Lucas except by moving closer to him so he can't keep doing it. Consider this in teams. Lucas is off on the side, and Lucas's teammate is in-between him and both opponents. Lucas uses Pk Freeze and targets the closer opponent while his teammate rushes in. Most of the easy evasive maneuvers to avoid Pk Freeze will be punished by Lucas's teammate so, even though the move didn't hit, it did effective damage by letting Lucas's teammate land something. It's fairly reasonable the opponent will make a mistake and let the reverse happen; it's really great for Lucas's team if, in avoiding an attack from Lucas's teammate, the opponent actually gets hit by Pk Freeze. Lucas will keep using Pk Freeze until the opponents break through his teammate and start chasing him down to force him to stop at which point Lucas will take a defensive stance while his teammate harries the other team from the rear. It's not something you base your entire team strategy around, but sometimes positions will emerge in which it's a good tactic to try. The move is not ignorable in teams at all, and it's definitely way more dangerous there than in singles.
An alternate use in teams is to heal Ness or another Lucas or to fill Mr. Game & Watch's bucket, of course.
Also, just to stir the pot a bit, I think the most reliable killer (not necessarily effective but reliable) is Zelda. On that note, what do people think of Zelda & Sheik; any interesting experiences? Please try to remain calm about our insistence on designing them as a team, but experience information about any style of use is of use regardless.
CarVac
Smash Journeyman
Yes, I think that Ness's kill power is above average, and Yes, I was kinda saying that he has no major systematic issues anymore, but if we're discussing his fsmash, here's my take:
1. It's not as powerful as Lucas's upsmash.
2. It's harder to hit strongly with (it's a sweetspotting move) than Lucas's Upsmash.
The problem with it as punishment is that the tip is not guaranteed; it's like "punishing" with GAW's Judge, but obviously to a lesser extent. The only things I find I reliably punish with the tip are whiffed Marth fsmashes (because being just beyond Marth's sword range lets you tipper his extended arm).
Sourspotting is just not worth it, because there are better moves (such as grabs) within the sourspot range to punish with. Perhaps the damage could be increased on the sourspot hitboxes but not knockback, to really make the opponents feel the pain?
Also: A good way to increase the psychological punishment is what they did (at least at one point) in B+, making the tip hitbox ping like the Homerun Bat. That way, the *CRACK* would be associated with damage, and the ping would signal death. Feel free to ignore this part of the suggestion, though.
==================EDIT====================
Now that I see AA's post:
When I think of a punishing move that makes people want to stay away, I think GAW's upsmash. It's slow, but not hard to hit with. And, it makes people STAY THE H*LL AWAY from GAW when using laggy moves. Ness's fsmash is not terribly effective in that purpose, because it's not devastating when used up close, and its duration and sweetspot size are nothing like GAW's fsmash (which kinda kills sooner).
But does it need that purpose? I guess when the opponent is too far away to be easily grabbed, it's useful, and grabs dish out the punishment up close, so I guess it doesn't really need changes.
::sigh:: I change my mind too much.
The problem with this is that:
1. It's not as powerful as Lucas's upsmash.
2. It's harder to hit strongly with (it's a sweetspotting move) than Lucas's Upsmash.
The problem with it as punishment is that the tip is not guaranteed; it's like "punishing" with GAW's Judge, but obviously to a lesser extent. The only things I find I reliably punish with the tip are whiffed Marth fsmashes (because being just beyond Marth's sword range lets you tipper his extended arm).
Sourspotting is just not worth it, because there are better moves (such as grabs) within the sourspot range to punish with. Perhaps the damage could be increased on the sourspot hitboxes but not knockback, to really make the opponents feel the pain?
Also: A good way to increase the psychological punishment is what they did (at least at one point) in B+, making the tip hitbox ping like the Homerun Bat. That way, the *CRACK* would be associated with damage, and the ping would signal death. Feel free to ignore this part of the suggestion, though.
==================EDIT====================
Now that I see AA's post:
When I think of a punishing move that makes people want to stay away, I think GAW's upsmash. It's slow, but not hard to hit with. And, it makes people STAY THE H*LL AWAY from GAW when using laggy moves. Ness's fsmash is not terribly effective in that purpose, because it's not devastating when used up close, and its duration and sweetspot size are nothing like GAW's fsmash (which kinda kills sooner).
But does it need that purpose? I guess when the opponent is too far away to be easily grabbed, it's useful, and grabs dish out the punishment up close, so I guess it doesn't really need changes.
::sigh:: I change my mind too much.
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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I don't say everyone has bad approaches or options. Or actually, I could argue that approaching generally is hard in Brawl due to it being defensive.
Basically your question is merely asking me who I think is actually good in this game...which includes guys like Marth, Metaknight, G&W, Wario, Mario, Samus, Snake, ROB, Olimar, Diddy...
Those imo are the characters who kinda stand out here.
AA...I find it really funny that you think G&W will just space so horribly that he'll LET HIMSELF GET F-SMASHED by Ness.
You should NEVER be getting hit by that attack outright before you can block on reaction...learn proper spacing and poking....it's not viable at all in any shape or form. It has the worst charge release in the game furthermore, being one of those rare Smashes that is powershieldable on reaction. Worst F-smash in the game by far. It has no real advantages in terms of range to speed ratio, and it's MASSIVELY punishable. It's like Snake's F-smash....except it's not a 1HKO, and Snake's F-smash actually has a good release.
We're talking about high level play here PLEASE. People don't just randomly spam attacks and whiff like that.
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
It was a range example. :/
JOE!
Smash Hero
kk, so what would you say (without changing hitboxes/frame data) could be done to bring "problem" characters up to their level?
Or is it not possible to do it without modding frame data or hitboxes?
Or is it not possible to do it without modding frame data or hitboxes?
A2ZOMG
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I'm not impressed that you can barely outrange G&W's D-tilt with Ness's F-smash. Lots of attacks are capable of doing that, and by more significant margins. Ness's F-smash doesn't have amazing range, and it doesn't linger very long or have any respectable degree of safety. It's the worst F-smash in the game.
Generally speaking JOE, I think that several characters aren't getting the right moves buffed. Lucas could use F-air or U-air buffed. Sonic could use a buff on B-throw or N-air.
The only characters who definitely need speed buffs are guys like...Ike, Bowser, and Ganondorf. Maybe Ness too.
Generally speaking JOE, I think that several characters aren't getting the right moves buffed. Lucas could use F-air or U-air buffed. Sonic could use a buff on B-throw or N-air.
The only characters who definitely need speed buffs are guys like...Ike, Bowser, and Ganondorf. Maybe Ness too.
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