Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Thinkaman]

I'm not dead yet! Just attending to other stuff before swinging back to bbrawl.

 

[camzy]

I think BBrawl advertises itself. I was immediately drawn to BBrawl rather than Brawl+ from the beginning. I didn't play Melee very much, so I became accustomed to Brawl mechanics. BBrawl basically does everything vBrawl does but better. It's definitely a step up and I think maybe a little more exposure could make BBrawl slightly more popular.

 

[The_Altrox]

I think BBrawl advertises itself. I was immediately drawn to BBrawl rather than Brawl+ from the beginning. I didn't play Melee very much, so I became accustomed to Brawl mechanics. BBrawl basically does everything vBrawl does but better. It's definitely a step up and I think maybe a little more exposure could make BBrawl slightly more popular.

This. Again, when version 2.0 comes out, I want to host a tourney. Thee only issue is that it can no longer run without the card. that means everybody else has to get a copy too, and not all may feel like it.

 

[Linkshot]

Actually, Altrox...

You can take the card out as soon as the match starts (bar Zelda/Sheik, Samus/ZSS, PT, Castle Siege, and Lylat Cruise), since the character loads on the CSS and the stage loads on the SSS.
(Character Select Screen and Stage Select Screen, respectively)

Transformation characters/stages require the SD Card since they'll look for it to load from during the transformation.

EDIT: So, if you have a few SD Cards, you could back up previous data and use them all for cycling through the tournament. The extra SD Cards will be for cases such as PT mains or going to Castle Siege.

 

[Thinkaman]

That's a lot of trouble though; people would be bugging each other and forgetting all the time. It's also a security concern.

Arg, so much to do. Let me finish this board game buying spree, then I'll be back. (The question isn't whether or not to buy Dominion, but how many copies to buy... do you own Dominion? You should own Dominion. Everyone should own Dominion.)

 

[Rinku リンク]

I'd like to complement the fact on how you buffed Link's recovery. I believe it's good, but not too good to the point where it's like "wtf" and can't be stopped like MK's recovery. I also believe it should fit fine within Link's metagame. To be honest, i don't see any need to remove it since you can still get gimped in the process of recovering and still fall short of distance to make it back to the stage. With that said, i believe Link is fine just where he is now. He has enough kill power and now has a DECENT recovery making him more viable while also helping with some of his MU's in the process (Now that gimping isn't too much of a concern). Maybe one change you might want to take into account though is toning down his Grounded Up-B since it kills drastically early but i can see why you did that to make it more worth the risk but that's the only thing i have to say from a Link main's perspective.

 

[The_Altrox]

Actually, Altrox...

You can take the card out as soon as the match starts (bar Zelda/Sheik, Samus/ZSS, PT, Castle Siege, and Lylat Cruise), since the character loads on the CSS and the stage loads on the SSS.
(Character Select Screen and Stage Select Screen, respectively)

Transformation characters/stages require the SD Card since they'll look for it to load from during the transformation.

EDIT: So, if you have a few SD Cards, you could back up previous data and use them all for cycling through the tournament. The extra SD Cards will be for cases such as PT mains or going to Castle Siege.

On the tourney size I'd probably run, I'd want 4 or 5 wiis. I only have two SD cards. One was gonna be used for Brawl Minus, but I could sub in BB. But I'd still want 2 or 3 more. I'd hav eto ask for help. and you know how people are. people in my area may not be accepting to begin with.

 

[Steeler]

most players have an SD card these days. just take them at the start, backup their files on your computer, and place the tourney files on there.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

Make Ike's fsmash have shield breaker's properties, (Longer charge has bigger shield damage, fully charged shield break) and can't be powershielded..... or reduce its ending lag to the point its unpunishable except by dodging successfully in front of Ike.

EDIT: I just thought of something, why not remove the diminishing knockback of moves on Ike. Would let Ike kill with bair and fair while using them to rack up damage.

Thing with the diminishing attacks is that you can refresh them by smackign them with otehr stuff. Ike already has plenty of kill moves, he just lacks solid delivery in them (B-air excluded)

 

[Thinkaman]

My SD card reader seems to have broke, so I'm momentarily stalled trying to fix that rather than write up a huge post...

 

[TP]

Three weeks later...

I have to convince my cousin that shrimp pizza is legit. I'll do my post on BBrawl soon though, don't worry.

 

[Linkshot]

His cousin must be conservative about stagestoppings.

 

[The_Altrox]

most players have an SD card these days. just take them at the start, backup their files on your computer, and place the tourney files on there.

It's not just that though.
First off, since my vBrawl skills are mediocre at best, I don't know if the community will take me seriously.
secondly, the last time I brought it up, people said it was stupid. maybe they were joking. maybe not. I have no clue. but either way, most people like B+ enough, and B- has that OMG effect on people's minds, so I'm afraid BB won't stand out

 

[Linkshot]

If Inui can be a respected TO...I don't think you'll have trouble.

EDIT: To make something constructive of this post, I'll add that it all boils down to management skills.

 

[Ussi]

Thing with the diminishing attacks is that you can refresh them by smackign them with otehr stuff. Ike already has plenty of kill moves, he just lacks solid delivery in them (B-air excluded)

Bair, Nair, fair, and jab are the 4 moves Ike can land on others relatively well. Two of them can kill, bair and fair. I just think removing dimishing attacks would keep fear in all of Ike's attacks like how Ganon's move do.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Nah, Ike doesn't need that.

If you reduce the ending lag on B-air, that will be enough to at least let Ike edgeguard. One of his biggest problems in general is the fact his air ending lag is terrible (worse than Snake's).

 

[Thinkaman]

Hey guys, I just spent like 14 hours straight working on bbrawl stuff. Very promising work was accomplished and good discussions were had.

We're really looking for feedback on Sheik, Zelda, ZSS (stun jab version). We also want general opinions on Peach, Yoshi, Toon Link, Samus, Pit, Kirby, Ness, and Sonic specifically, though anything you want to contribute about any character is beneficial.

SEND ME TIER LISTS AND I'LL LOVE YOU FOREVER.

k thx, sleep time

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I have some more nitty gritty for people. Hey guys, I swear we listen to you.

Link's tether attack in the air now sends him into helpless only if he does it as a cancel from spin attack (not in general). This prevents goofy looking repeated up specials and feels very natural. I don't think the gameplay impact is that huge, but it should look a lot better.

Fox and Wolf both had the timing on their side-B cancels tightened up which should somewhat reduce the versatility (an overall good nerf) and should also make them feel better for their characters (team Star Fox is all about "tight" characters). We know these are some of the most powerful buffs in the project, but we feel that overall they do more good than harm and want to make them work. This also applies to canceling Falco's side special with wall jump, but that is mostly very minor (it will probably be hard to tell the difference in that case, but we're keeping it consistent).

Wolf's up special bounce change is just reverted. It was deemed too much going on with Wolf, and the glitch of the particular implementation was just stupid.

Captain Falcon's changes were refined a lot. I think it was Mit who said they really reminded him he was playing a mod of the game, and we understand and agree with that. Basically, Falcon Kick has five programmed ending states. The ground version can end either on the ground, in the air, or by slamming into the wall. The aerial version can end either in the air or by slamming into the ground. All versions of this can be canceled by Falcon Dive, Falcon Punch, or Raptor Boost by holding the appropriate direction and B button (or pressing them again). Specifically, the grounded Falcon Kick ending in the air and the aerial one ending by slamming into the ground can also be canceled into another Falcon Kick this way. Of course, in the other states, you can still buffer Falcon Kick after the normal ending of the move (the same way you can buffer fsmash or whatever if you so choose). In any case Falcon Kick is canceled into Falcon Kick, the "Falcon Kick" sound effect only plays once. The frame windows on all cancels have also been adjusted. Now ground to ground, ground to air, and air to air cancel on f2, air to ground cancels on f3, and ground to wall cancels on f8. This is somewhat a nerf though still maintains most of the powerful stuff, and it looks and sounds a million times less stupid. Thinkaman spent hours refining this (I helped by digging up some useful obscure PSA functions like background looping), and I think it is a real gem.

Ivysaur dair has been tweaked a bit to make it feel more natural as a mobility option (it's also strictly superior to the version you guys are using); it's nothing major though.

We gave Charizard a little something extra, but what it is will have to be a surprise. It's nothing that big though.

Ike too! Ike's thing probably feels more powerful than it is but should address some complaints and also one major annoyance that never really made Ike worse but did frustrate players needlessly.

We decided to stick to our guns on a few things. We're convinced Jigglypuff's Mystery Gift is good design. We are going to push forward with Peach as she is right now, but detailed feedback of the implications of her change would be appreciated. If it proves necessary, we can tighten the window on the cancel, but as we see it now maintaining the flexibility is our best bet to do right by Peach. We are quite sensitive to input on this though; please let us know!

We plotted a few small details as well that should make people happy and not ultimately matter too much. We're mostly in the clean-up phase, and the next standard release should be on its way in a matter of just a few weeks. I don't want to give a release date, but the odds of it not having been released in time for my birthday (April 18) are about 0%, probably significantly earlier than that.

Speaking of the release, we have some surprises of the good variety and some great stuff planned, but we really want this to be as big as possible. We have done our best to really take everyone seriously in this topic, and legitimately our internal discussions and design decisions are flavored by feedback especially from the test build. The current game is not 100% complete, and we still are legitimately looking for more feedback; we may be the project dictators, but I think we can fairly claim this project is still community driven. We would greatly, greatly appreciate it if when this release happens, even if there may end up being some details that upset some of you (no matter what we do, we can't avoid it), that, as long as you still support the project as a whole, you do what you can to help spread the word. There will be video, easy stuff to show to anyone, but it won't do us any good if we can't get anyone to watch it. I think this is somewhere you guys could help out; we're thinking of other ways to spread the word and get people to play as well of course.

So yeah, if you haven't gotten hype, you really should. Things are coming along very, very nicely.

 

[Eldiran]

Excellent! Most excellent. All those things are things I approve of, and I can't wait to try them out! I'm pumped that there is already a refined release on the way. I can tell I'm going to love Link's Up+B to tether now that it won't behave wonkily.

That Ike change sounds exciting. I'm gonna go ahead and guess that the Ike change is possibly allowing a jump out of the later parts of nair to prevent suicides? Just 'cuz guessing is fun.

As feedback from someone who has had very little playtime and isn't that great at Brawl, I'd say the only changes left that still offend my senses are Sheik's rapid jab cancel, Peach's Bomber cancel, and ZSS' linking jab.

My (flimsy) reasons being that Sheik's rapid jab cancel seems unnecessary. Peach's Peach Bomber seems a little too interruptible -- I think I would appreciate it if you could only interrupt it after Peach has started on her attack path. And the idea of ZSS' jab always linking scares me a bit, but more importantly it seems like a drastic change to her playstyle.

I'm giving this feedback not because I think my reasoning is necessarily legit, but because these are probably the kind of gut reactions you'll see from hesitant converts.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Sheik is very much near the top of both of our watch lists. We'd really like to hear more from people using her (and Zelda, and both in combination!). Actually, Zelda & Sheik is our single biggest concern character, and we'd really, really like to hear some from people who have been exploring them in real matches.

Peach Bomber we considered doing the other way around (not letting you cancel it late) and tightening it up that way, but we do want to keep this change powerful since, honestly, Peach is one of the biggest risks for falling behind on the "do nothing" plan (we were both extremely dissatisfied with Peach in the standard release and both believe her to be bottom tier or close to it in that version; everyone just grew past her).

ZSS jab... I used to think that as did Thinkaman. Then we found out the ridiculous behavior that against something like half the cast it already always links (it's related to fall speed; it links on the slower fallers with Ivysaur/Charizard being the cutoff, both so close to the line that Charizard's weight makes it not link on him while it does link on Ivysaur... or maybe it was the other way around). Basically, the issue is that it's already pretty ridiculous; Zero Suit Samus has a great and linkable jab combo that works in only some matchups in standard Brawl. That is unacceptable behavior; we are for sure changing it to either always link or never link. The current test build uses always link, but we do have that alternate version that never links (against grounded opponents that is) but does have jab3 with stun element which allows for some shenanigans. If you want to check out the other version and report back on that, it would be helpful to us, but I think it's easy to see how something has to change here. My personal intuition is that the linking version is more intuitive, will be appreciated more by actual ZSS players (game design aside, making a jab combo intentionally link worse is the kind of thing that is likely to upset people), and is more consistent with the rest of the design of the game. However, both are there, and unlike Thinkaman's ridiculous Bowser the Relentless (which I hated from the first time he mentioned it), this one is there for people to explore where we think there are multiple good options.

By the way, I checked the ZSS boards and found no evidence they actually know about the linking properties of her jab. It radically rocks her matchups for very obvious reasons so it's kinda surprising to me they don't have a sticky explicitly listing the characters it does and does not link against. I would almost suspect they don't know, but... there's just no way they don't know about something like that. It's too important to the character to not have figured out long ago.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

What kind of cool stuff is Lucas going to get? All I see is the jab lock thing and that's a universal technique.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It's not really that universal; how many characters really have jab locks that are remotely practical? Lucas and Link are the main two (Lucas having the better one), Jigglypuff kinda does, and I think one other character might but which character it is escapes me (Ice Climbers b-lock and Falco laser lock are basically impossible to ever land and make matter, as well as random stuff like Peach bair lock that never, ever happens in a million years). Lucas also saw the removal of a ridiculous abuse against him and generally more powerful "boring" buffs than most of the cast (12% jab combo!); I think his flavor of cool stuff mostly comes down to being flat out more capable while being mostly along the same lines as before. Some characters are just better buffed that way as opposed to getting something flashy.

I asked Thinkaman what he thought of Lucas, and this how that went.

(7:51:14 AM) Amazing Ampharos: but Lucas thoughts?
(7:51:43 AM) Thinkaman: dair-double-dtilt-fsmash
(7:51:45 AM) Thinkaman: that is all
(7:52:08 AM) Amazing Ampharos: actually
(7:52:12 AM) Amazing Ampharos: can you double dtilt dsmash?
(7:52:17 AM) Amazing Ampharos: dsmash is likely to be fresh
(7:54:45 AM) Thinkaman: yes

 

[Eldiran]

Peach Bomber we considered doing the other way around (not letting you cancel it late) and tightening it up that way, but we do want to keep this change powerful since, honestly, Peach is one of the biggest risks for falling behind on the "do nothing" plan (we were both extremely dissatisfied with Peach in the standard release and both believe her to be bottom tier or close to it in that version; everyone just grew past her).

That would also work to make the move feel better (and rein it in a tad). I can understand being worried about underbuffing her; Peach has always seemed pretty potent, and yet simultaneously somewhat lacking. Then again I have no idea where anyone is on any tier list...

ZSS jab... I used to think that as did Thinkaman. Then we found out the ridiculous behavior that against something like half the cast it already always links (it's related to fall speed; it links on the slower fallers with Ivysaur/Charizard being the cutoff, both so close to the line that Charizard's weight makes it not link on him while it does link on Ivysaur... or maybe it was the other way around). Basically, the issue is that it's already pretty ridiculous; Zero Suit Samus has a great and linkable jab combo that works in only some matchups in standard Brawl. That is unacceptable behavior; we are for sure changing it to either always link or never link. The current test build uses always link, but we do have that alternate version that never links (against grounded opponents that is) but does have jab3 with stun element which allows for some shenanigans. If you want to check out the other version and report back on that, it would be helpful to us, but I think it's easy to see how something has to change here. My personal intuition is that the linking version is more intuitive, will be appreciated more by actual ZSS players (game design aside, making a jab combo intentionally link worse is the kind of thing that is likely to upset people), and is more consistent with the rest of the design of the game. However, both are there, and unlike Thinkaman's ridiculous Bowser the Relentless (which I hated from the first time he mentioned it), this one is there for people to explore where we think there are multiple good options.

That is fascinating, and really good to know. It makes the change to always linking a lot more acceptable. (I assume it is the floaty side that can be combo'd, as opposed to the fastfallers?) It also makes the stun ZSS a lot more awkward an idea. I'm predicting that even if third jab stun was amazingly more powerful than linking jab, people might still complain and claim it is a nerf.

Relentless Bowser is a really cool idea... that doesn't belong in BBrawl. I wish they'd done that in Brawl- instead of just giving specific constant heavy armor.

By the way, I checked the ZSS boards and found no evidence they actually know about the linking properties of her jab. It radically rocks her matchups for very obvious reasons so it's kinda surprising to me they don't have a sticky explicitly listing the characters it does and does not link against. I would almost suspect they don't know, but... there's just no way they don't know about something like that. It's too important to the character to not have figured out long ago.

That's shocking. The only explanation I can think of is that it's a well-guarded secret to give ZSS mains an edge

 

[JOE!]

Hmn, wonder what Charizard is getting...

5$ says it's a new Up Throw:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntiuwkNIKU0

 

[Eldiran]

Heh, nice. That makes me hope his down throw got buffed... no throw should look that cool and only do 6%.

 

[Ussi]

Nah, Ike doesn't need that.

If you reduce the ending lag on B-air, that will be enough to at least let Ike edgeguard. One of his biggest problems in general is the fact his air ending lag is terrible (worse than Snake's).

I know Ike the worst ending air lag for all his moves (Nair lasts 74 frames when 30 of it is a hitbox o_O) But i'm accepting it as a character weakness. I dunno, trying to see if Ike can get good while keeping that. Maybe make his smashes have less ending lag or make them stronger (for stronger shield stun) o-o


But that jump out of nair idea Eldiran said o-o;; that sounds sexy... if you can nair and jump in the middle of it... lol nair > bair in the air combo... soo would love that idea XD

 

[Linkshot]

I actually know the Charizard secret (because I suggested it!) but I'm saying nothing about what it is! Bahahahah!

Hint:

Spoiler

It helps in a devastating matchup...but then again, don't all changes?

I think the focus on Ike should be saying "This is not a low tier Snake." As such, where Snake has better frame data, power up Ike significantly. I know that Ike has massive disjoint, but it honestly doesn't linger enough to merit being slow.

I will support power buffs on fAir, fSmash, and fTilt. Perhaps give uTilt some extra utility? (I'm thinking differentiating between hitting ground and airborne opponents and giving it cool things that way, but I don't main Ike)

I was thinking that since Ike hates shields -a lot-, we should buff his pummel and throws to instill fear on shielding opponents.

bThrow: Positions the opponent into getting hit by bAir or fAir (frame trapper)
fThrow: Back to vBrawl Base, but give it significantly more Growth so that it causes wallbouncing much sooner.
Pummel: +1 damage, Fire element.
dThrow: Positions the opponent into predicting Ike's uSmash release (frame trapper)
uThrow: Damage buff. +2, High Base to reset situations, and chuck Olimar into the air longer.

Feedback from AA and Ike mains? I already tossed the ideas Thinkaman's way.

 

[JOE!]

oh, Zard gets new tech/getup options?



....




...but, seismic toss

 

[Nakihito]

I'm very skeptical of this new Ike buff. Just from the way you've worded it, the buff sounds like some kind of nair cancel which, again, is NOT what Ike needs while at the same time being about as drastic a change as a timing change. I made a very detailed post here about what Ike needs. Yes, they are drastic, but Ike's character design was very poorly implemented. He doesn't hit as hard or fast as the other heavy hitters and is probably one of the only character that cannot do two aerials in one jump or juggle (partially because his jumps do not go that high, but mostly because his aerials have some of the worst frame data in the game). Ike has no rewarding or safe options against team disjoint or projectile users and he is falling behind other characters very fast.

I think in the current test build he has two, maybe three buffs, one or two or which add nothing to his balance, and nerfed throws (which were already pretty bad). This is in contrast to other characters like Mario or Link, both of which probably have as much, if not more kill power and damage racking potential than Ike. I understand that one of the goal of the project is to stick as close to vBrawl as possible, but isn't balance supposed to be the number one goal? Ike will never be balanced without proper risk:reward ratios and right now his risk is far greater than his reward. This is especially true when there are other characters that can do what Ike does but for a better reward and less risk. I believe that the easiest, most effective, most rewarding, and more sensible way to fix Ike is to make him faster. Giving Ike more knock back or damage on hit would work as well, however, you would need to buff his attacks to the point where he kills at 60-70% to give him a proper risk:reward ratio

 

[rPSIvysaur]

(7:51:14 AM) Amazing Ampharos: but Lucas thoughts?
(7:51:43 AM) Thinkaman: dair-double-dtilt-fsmash
(7:51:45 AM) Thinkaman: that is all
(7:52:08 AM) Amazing Ampharos: actually
(7:52:12 AM) Amazing Ampharos: can you double dtilt dsmash?
(7:52:17 AM) Amazing Ampharos: dsmash is likely to be fresh
(7:54:45 AM) Thinkaman: yes

It works in vBrawl. Putting something back into BBrawl from vBrawl is hardly a buff. I'm pretty sure that Fox can't jump out of side-b in vBrawl, so why is Lucas' trick in vBrawl?

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm trying to crank some stuff out, but some comments:

Charizard's "secret" is just that we are looking at shield damage on the first hit of bair. (Which helps the second stab) It's a modest but meaningful buff that should be great with the right numbers. What Linkshot suggested was an improvement to get up attacks (primarily for Snake) but after testing those changes ended up kinda weird and meaningless. Of the things I tested, bair shield damage looked like the clear winner in terms of presentation and addressing Charizard's bad matchups. Thoughts are welcome.

As for Ike, we have nair IASA 37f. This gives it identical cancelling behavior to Ganon's dair. (For Ike's physics of course.) SH nair hits even Olimar, and at low %s combos into jab. I prefer to do the nairs backwards so they are slower but safer, and so I can easily mix them up with a bair. Obviously nairicide is dead with this change.

As for Peach, I will look into tightening the cancel window.

In case Ampharos wasn't clear, the Falcon Kick polish is *awesome*. It now feels and looks like someone that was programmed into the game from the start, which is a huge change from what it was.

It works in vBrawl. Putting something back into BBrawl from vBrawl is hardly a buff. I'm pretty sure that Fox can't jump out of side-b in vBrawl, so why is Lucas' trick in vBrawl?

Lucas's "trick" is only in vBrawl if they have a narrow % range, don't SDI, and don't tech. Here it only doesn't work at low %s or if they tech. This is what makes it so easy to add: people already know how it works, they just always wished they could actually use it at high level play.

This is on top of Lucas having a better spot dodge, a better jab, a better u-tilt, and a better d-tilt (a great move now, instead of one of the worst moves in the game). When we say that Lucas has one of the best ground games in the game now (maybe THE best...) it's not hand-waving. Lucas has a lot of substance now.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

lolsnakegroundgame.

 

[Thinkaman]

Yeah, Snake is other contender.

So, I'm working on Peach's interrupt window right now guys. Any thoughts?

 

[Eldiran]

Bair shield damage sounds rockin'... and so does Ike nair and that Falcon Kick.

As for Bomber, I vote for either exclusively before or after the "chah" sound effect. It'd be nice to have an auditory cue that lets you know when you can and can't interrupt.

Either that or before or after the hitbox.

 

[Lokee]

Yeah, Snake is other contender.

So, I'm working on Peach's interrupt window right now guys. Any thoughts?

Well for the sake of making it look natural so Im not talking frames but basically make it looks as though Peach seems to be launching at the opposing player with an aerial.

So maybe place the window as soon as she lunges foward but a little before the apex of the frontal momment

 

[Thinkaman]

Eldiran, right now the "cha" comes out one frame after the interrupt window. That's a good idea for a change (I'm doing it right now!) but it's not going to alter the big picture much.

Peach Bomber doesn't really have a "hitbox"--it has some weird custom programming that changes to a state with a hitbox if you encounter a non-shield hurtbox.

UPDATE: Allowing interrupt 1 frame after the "cha" feels pretty decent. I'm also cancelling the interrupt on frame 25 (so a 20 frame window plus buffering). This is exactly when Peach's post-lunge twirl animation starts. Seems pretty good.

 

[Lokee]

EDIT: I wrote a list earlier but my log in messed up or something ...ANYWAY

Toon Link and Samus- seems fine for now

Pit, Peach, and ZZS- cant comment dont like or play

Sheik and Zelda- I think their "tricks" werent really nessasary. Sheik's trick seems too good and maybe overdoing what she is already good at. Maybe a buff to her recovery similar to Link may help.......ZELDA simply put doesnt seem to adress her main issues. I think people would like a buff to Din's Fire to force approaches so they have to play in her ballpark.

Kirby- Like the Nuetral B steals, but needs a tweak here and there. Nair or maybe like someone suggested make the stolen move more of Kirby's own.

Sonic- I like him so far. Would appreciate emergency kill throw, Nair setup, and the -brawl thing where he has heavy armor on Spin Dashing

Yoshi- Love rolling around the stage almost carelessly. Help approach particuallar campy characters.

Ness- Shield Damage is neat and allows more pressure and poking. Although Id wish they found a way to make PK Fire active all the time reguardless if it hits the shield.

BBrawl Tricks and Fun Things
Snake- Cardboardbox like a weaker version of Sonic's Spring. OR Snake says something when he removes his box depending on the direction. Example: *Press Left Taunt* *removes box* says *tasty*
Game and Watch- Bell Taunts increase the chances of scoring higher values on Judgement
DK- Perhaps Chest Pound Taunt bestow some kind of benefit
Pokemon Trainer- Standing or Crouching still stops the timer and begins to restore stamina OR taunting restores a certain amount of stamina
Lucario- Can Walljump or Wallcling out of Up B (limit once)
Bowser- Crouching and Crawling has heavy armor OR after wasting all his jumps and only after UpB Bowser can jump once more.
Rob- Taunt where is eye flash recharges his lazer
Wario- Can annoyingly cancel his taunts adding to his unpredictable nature

 

[dansal]

Let DK cancel spinning kong with Nair or jab.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I couldn't test against people, and actually I couldn't do than barely showing them some new mechanics (they were amusing and ROFLing at the same time whith Warlock Punch).
Other than some theories or opinions, I can't really tell nothing experience-based.

But Zelda's NL trick... it's just silly, unfitting and useless (even CPUs scape consistently of iceblocks)... I was wondering if maybe worth having Momentum Cancel properties on a random aerial attack so she could survive a just little more, since she's a character to be played at high %...

Other thing has been bothering me is Falcon Punch as a gimping tool:
An unstoppable man going straight to you buffering an epic attack, while your weakling attacks can't do nothing, you have no options but stepback (if your mobility allows it), or airdodge... and die anyways...

 

[JOE!]

Trick based on DK's chest pound taunt:

if in nigh point blank range, causes the foe to taunt, not to be one upped by the big ape of course. Give syou a frame advantage as they are taunting