Balanced Brawl: Jigglypuff

[Metatitan]

Okay so I know what BB is, idk the changes they made to jigglypuff. I made this thread cuz I was bored and I'll update it with changes they made to her and changes we would like to be made to her. Someone else post the changes and I'll update them.

 

[Noobicidal]

"-More knockback on down smash (66/34) -> (66/50)
-Improved angle on dash attack (set to 10)
-Faster pummel speed
-More damage on Pound, back aerial, up aerial and neutral aerial (sweetspot) (+1% each)
-Knockback on those attacks adjusted to account for the additional damage
-Improved angle on neutral aerial (set to 25)

Jigglypuff needs a lot of work to be equal to her current superiors, and that work comes in the form of several small changes that add up. The bread and butter of her aerial game has been improved, and the limited facets of her ground game (grabs for damage and dash attack for KOs) have been polished. Pummel speed increase also helps her fight stale moves, which has a huge effect on her game! Finally, the down smash buff specifically helps her gimp Wario, her aerial rival."

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=239604

 

[Metatitan]

"-More knockback on down smash (66/34) -> (66/50)
-Improved angle on dash attack (set to 10)
-Faster pummel speed
-More damage on Pound, back aerial, up aerial and neutral aerial (sweetspot) (+1% each)
-Knockback on those attacks adjusted to account for the additional damage
-Improved angle on neutral aerial (set to 25)

Jigglypuff needs a lot of work to be equal to her current superiors, and that work comes in the form of several small changes that add up. The bread and butter of her aerial game has been improved, and the limited facets of her ground game (grabs for damage and dash attack for KOs) have been polished. Pummel speed increase also helps her fight stale moves, which has a huge effect on her game! Finally, the down smash buff specifically helps her gimp Wario, her aerial rival."

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=239604

Pummel speed is good, uair should do 12%, and the aerial stuff is good. Down smash will always be terrible, making it have better knockback doesn't help. Her rest should kill DDD at say 50%; it is the biggest risk-reward move in the game and if missed has more risk than any other attack. Giving it horizontal KB as well as the old fire damage would be nice as well.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Pummel speed is good, uair should do 12%, and the aerial stuff is good. Down smash will always be terrible, making it have better knockback doesn't help. Her rest should kill DDD at say 50%; it is the biggest risk-reward move in the game and if missed has more risk than any other attack. Giving it horizontal KB as well as the old fire damage would be nice as well.

Though I agree with Rest having more knockback, I think that Rest is fine with solely vertical knockback. If it has horizontal knockback, then it may cause a side KO, and then they may be able to respawn and attack before you wake up. With a star KO, that can't happen.

 

[Glick]

Pummel speed is good, uair should do 12%, and the aerial stuff is good. Down smash will always be terrible, making it have better knockback doesn't help. Her rest should kill DDD at say 50%; it is the biggest risk-reward move in the game and if missed has more risk than any other attack. Giving it horizontal KB as well as the old fire damage would be nice as well.

I agree that in BB rest should kill earlier.

but you're asking for 64/melee additions. BB isn't supposed to get closer to smashs origins it is supposed to just balance out vbrawl while keeping it as old and boring as before. There's a reason why they didn't add hitstun and speed.

I don't care much about this since I play B+ mainly. There is no real reason to play BB. It'll be just as boring.

 

[Metatitan]

I agree that in BB rest should kill earlier.

but you're asking for 64/melee additions. BB isn't supposed to get closer to smashs origins it is supposed to just balance out vbrawl while keeping it as old and boring as before. There's a reason why they didn't add hitstun and speed.

I don't care much about this since I play B+ mainly. There is no real reason to play BB. It'll be just as boring.

Brawl is actually fun, it just didn't have long monstrous combo strings that people were used to. BB is more of a brawl+ than brawl+ is. Brawl+ for me was just too easy to play, it was like melee slowed down without much tech skill =/

 

[Glick]

Brawl is actually fun, it just didn't have long monstrous combo strings that people were used to. BB is more of a brawl+ than brawl+ is. Brawl+ for me was just too easy to play, it was like melee slowed down without much tech skill =/

BB is more of a B+ than B+ is?

Doesn't make sense since B+ was made to have hitstun, balance and some more speed.
BB is just vbrawl with balanced ****. Which is perfect for those who are sick of vbrawl due to it being shallow since there are a limited amount of tourny viable characters, but don't like the hitstun added to B+.

B+ isn't easy if you have good competition. I don't see how it could possibly be more boring then regular brawl.

And vbrawl isn't fun not only because of the lack of hitstun, it's just annoying. Everything power shields and certain gameplay aspects are ********. The drama frames are annoying as hell also. That is one thing I hated about smash64 and Vbrawl.

 

[g-regulate]

this is dumb, i do not approve. brawl+ is pretty balanced, considering everyone *****. i dont think any more versions of brawl need to be made. just my humble opinion though.

 

[Metatitan]

BB is more of a B+ than B+ is?

Doesn't make sense since B+ was made to have hitstun, balance and some more speed.
BB is just vbrawl with balanced ****. Which is perfect for those who are sick of vbrawl due to it being shallow since there are a limited amount of tourny viable characters, but don't like the hitstun added to B+.

B+ isn't easy if you have good competition. I don't see how it could possibly be more boring then regular brawl.

And vbrawl isn't fun not only because of the lack of hitstun, it's just annoying. Everything power shields and certain gameplay aspects are ********. The drama frames are annoying as hell also. That is one thing I hated about smash64 and Vbrawl.

VBrawl is plenty of fun if you're decent at it. Brawl+ is simply a melee 2.0 if you compare it to brawl. It shares way more qualities with melee than brawl. Brawl+ is simply a hack used to appease the people who were disappointed that brawl didn't have melee's physics. I'd rather play melee (which is way better than brawl+) than play a watered down version of it. Brawl is actually a deep game if you actually play people at a high level of competition; it looks easy by watching footage but it's actually a lot harder than you'd think.

 

[VodkaHaze]

More knockback to rest (but keep it vertical) and make bair stronger and increase her weight, dash speed and range is all i can think of.

 

[Metatitan]

More knockback to rest (but keep it vertical) and make bair stronger and increase her weight, dash speed and range is all i can think of.

They can't change range but I'm all for Bair doing more knockback as well as doing say 14%.

Here are the changes that should have been given to jiggs.

More knockback on Bair as well as doing 13% or 14% (I think in BB it does 13%)
More knockback on Fair (yes, even more than it has now)
WAY more knockback on rest, making it vertical or horizontal would be their choice
Uair should do at least 12%
Drill should do a tad more hitstun so that it can legitly combo into rest
More knockback on up smash and forward smash
Forward tilt should have the same knockback dash attack has in regular brawl

 

[Glick]

VBrawl is plenty of fun if you're decent at it. Brawl+ is simply a melee 2.0 if you compare it to brawl. It shares way more qualities with melee than brawl. Brawl+ is simply a hack used to appease the people who were disappointed that brawl didn't have melee's physics. I'd rather play melee (which is way better than brawl+) than play a watered down version of it. Brawl is actually a deep game if you actually play people at a high level of competition; it looks easy by watching footage but it's actually a lot harder than you'd think.

I hate arguing with you because It reminds me of arguing with a southern conservative.
Almost everything you said in there was based off assumptions. No, EVERYTHING you said.

You keep going on about melee 2.0 I said a very long explanation of why you are wrong. The game wasn't sped up. If that is what you think. They didn't make anybody fall faster or have drastically different physics unless there was some character specific change. etc etc etc

And I have played at VERY high levels of competition. Especially with jigglypuff. It is a very shallow and boring road. I got sick of it and I moved on. BBrawl is pretty much a game made for people who feel that way but dislike what they did with B+. I probably brought this argument on this thread. So I'm just going to stop.

 

[Thinkaman]

*considers posting*

*sees argument*

*thinks better of it*

 

[VodkaHaze]

WAY more knockback on rest, making it vertical or horizontal would be their choice

The reason why I thought vertical knockback is because in some Melee matches I've watched, when Jiggs does rest, if its a KO that sends them at the blast lines at the side, Jiggs is pretty much ****ed if its a stage where they can get to her easily.

If it's an upper blast line KO (or Star KO) you spend less time vunerable when the opponent comes back.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I hate to interject but... isn't there more to Jigglypuff than Rest? It's hardly her most significant move, and I think our other buffs are much more important to her anyway.

 

[Noobicidal]

I hate to interject but... isn't there more to Jigglypuff than Rest? It's hardly her most significant move, and I think our other buffs are much more important to her anyway.

Blasphemer...

Kidding. We should definitely focus less on Rest. It's a trump card for a reason; we shouldn't be able to rely on it whenever we feel like it.

 

[Metatitan]

The whole idea of rest originally was a move that had a ton of risk and a ton of reward. No other move is more punishable in the game than rest. Rest is still the most punishable attack in the game but it is not the strongest. I'm not saying the buffs you made didn't help: they did. It's just Rest should be an attack that isn't a threat to a careful player but is strong enough to where they actually worry about it. King DDD dies from it at like, 120% and has an attack that kills characters at 60% or so, and it's less punishable than rest. Another thing to take in account is jigglypuff's weight. In regular brawl, jigglypuff is very light with very inconsistent KO moves. I like your idea with Dash Attack to make it a better KO move than it already is, but Rest is what made jigglypuff a glass cannon. She's still fragile but she really isn't a cannon.

 

[Noobicidal]

She's still fragile but she really isn't a cannon.

Try holding down shield too long and say that again.

 

[Thinkaman]

The ultimate problem with buffing Rest is that it starts to make Jigglypuff significantly more biased around that move. Let me explain.

All moves threaten some enemy characters more than others. Sometimes the difference is small and it's almost an equally good move against all characters. Sometimes they are somewhat extreme, like Jigglypuff d-smash: a move that should pretty much never be used except ledge-guarding Wario. Rest falls into the latter camp; it's much, much easier to Rest certain characters than others.

If we were to buff rest to be more deadly, the Diddy matchup could become 80:20 or even worse. Laggy characters like Ike or Ganon could become 70:30, and so could Bowser and possibly DK. Dedede's recovery is just totally screwed. Meanwhile G&W, Marth, Wario, Olimar, Luigi, and all the other characters Jigglypuff hates hardly care at all, and remain awful awful matchups. (I don't actually think Olimar is that bad of a matchup, but he's certainly not very rest-able.)

Look at the buffs, and for the most part you will see things that help primarily in more difficult matchups. +1% on Pound for fighting high-priority? Lower angle on dash attack, to kill lightweights easier? d-smash for gimping Wario? Nair buff for gimping space animals? Faster pummel speed for refreshing fair in matchups where it has to be used more?

Buffing rest would help Jigglypuff, but not in the matchups she needs the most help in. Play her hardest matchups with the buffs we've arrived at, and I hope you will agree that they have made them significantly more even.

 

[Glick]

The ultimate problem with buffing Rest is that it starts to make Jigglypuff significantly more biased around that move. Let me explain.

All moves threaten some enemy characters more than others. Sometimes the difference is small and it's almost an equally good move against all characters. Sometimes they are somewhat extreme, like Jigglypuff d-smash: a move that should pretty much never be used except ledge-guarding Wario. Rest falls into the latter camp; it's much, much easier to Rest certain characters than others.

If we were to buff rest to be more deadly, the Diddy matchup could become 80:20 or even worse. Laggy characters like Ike or Ganon could become 70:30, and so could Bowser and possibly DK. Dedede's recovery is just totally screwed. Meanwhile G&W, Marth, Wario, Olimar, Luigi, and all the other characters Jigglypuff hates hardly care at all, and remain awful awful matchups. (I don't actually think Olimar is that bad of a matchup, but he's certainly not very rest-able.)

Look at the buffs, and for the most part you will see things that help primarily in more difficult matchups. +1% on Pound for fighting high-priority? Lower angle on dash attack, to kill lightweights easier? d-smash for gimping Wario? Nair buff for gimping space animals? Faster pummel speed for refreshing fair in matchups where it has to be used more?

Buffing rest would help Jigglypuff, but not in the matchups she needs the most help in. Play her hardest matchups with the buffs we've arrived at, and I hope you will agree that they have made them significantly more even.

Wow. That totally blew my mind.

Mind blown.