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Social Bair is underpowered - Puff Social/Disc Thread

Krynxe

I can't pronounce it either
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oh so that's how melee players go from an aerial to a grab or smash so fast. Thanks!

one more thing, what is crouch cancelling?
To put it simply, if you're crouching when you take a hit, depending on the hit and if you're at a low percent, you essentially take no knockback and can immediately counter-attack. It's extremely useful, there's so much you can do with it.

For a quick and simple application with puff: at a low percent hold crouch while you have a friend or something dash attack you. You'll notice that you'll take the hit but still be on the floor while they're dedicated to the dash attack. You can rest them immediately after taking the hit, since they're in the perfect place to be rested and can't get away quick enough due to the lag after dash attacking.

If you want me to explain some more applications feel free to ask. It's an extremely useful tool that goes across every character, so be careful for it yourself.

this is jungle editing your post nya
 

AppleAppleAZ

Smash Journeyman
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Nov 29, 2011
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318
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Ayy Zeee
Having a lot of trouble with spacies dealing with their constant pressure, especially falco. Can anyone offer a generalized gameplan for puff? I seem to rely on gimps like bthrow > bair and upthrow > rest way too much :|
 

FoxLisk

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
1,851
oh so that's how melee players go from an aerial to a grab or smash so fast. Thanks!

one more thing, what is crouch cancelling?
crouch cancelling is used to mean two things.

1) If you are actually in the crouching animation as you got hit, you suffer tremendously reduced knockback. you can CC weak attacks and grab or just not get combo'd. M2K and Armada are probably the most prolific users of CC, you can watch their vids to see it in action.
2) if you're doing something besides crouching (e.g. you're in a move animation, or waiting to recover from rest, or something), you suffer somewhat reduced knockback. this is occasionally useful for letting you CC grab/etc, but imo tends to be more useful for getting techs against things that would normally launch you.
 

Krynxe

I can't pronounce it either
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Having a lot of trouble with spacies dealing with their constant pressure, especially falco. Can anyone offer a generalized gameplan for puff? I seem to rely on gimps like bthrow > bair and upthrow > rest way too much :|
Yeah, there's a lot to cover with the spacies mu's. I'll try not to go too far in depth, to put it simply there's a lot of tricks that work on either one that you should utilize. One extremely important thing is not to treat the two of them the same at all. Puff is an extremely mental-oriented character, you have to make them be scared to do anything punishable and control the match and the map. Constantly change your jump/attack patterns especially if you notice them trying to play defensive - they're stalling to try to read. Stay on their *** the entire match, don't give either spacie any room to run around and do what they want.

Fox is very quick and has an extremely deadly usmash and (uthrow+)uair, so you're usually going to die around 70-90%. Because of Fox's speed though, you can make reads pretty easily. Things like jumping at them like you're going to bair them, but then double jump and bair above their head and weave back. It either hits them as they jump or makes them scared to jump on your approaches. Also, WD oos is so good. WD back grabs are really good for gimp setups, but also wd oos fsmash can be very useful at times. You have to be creative, it's the only way to get in Fox's head. Try to think a step ahead, because Fox goes to the next step quicker than Puff.

Falco is a bit simpler. Stay above his shorthop (laser) range most of the time - after all, what's falco going to do when you're there? If they're playing campy just stay on their *** but don't go full on aggro, giving up your stage control and the potential hits you'll take approaching that way usually isn't worth it. Cornering a falco by the edge is exactly what you want to do. Bairs are a lot better in this mu, aim for the area right on front of and above their head. Falco can't really kill puff easily, just keep an eye out for utilts and dtilts at high percents - stay distant and safe. One of the biggest annoyances at first is dealing with dair spam, but once you get used to punishing it they have nothing left to turn to. (Falco's dair has very little horizontal coverage, just stay mobile and you can easily dodge and punish.) At this point, Falcos will have to start fullhoping and running around the stage looking for opportunities. If you just don't give them anything to work with, this mu isn't very hard.

And for both of these MUs, especially vs Fox, weaving nairs are so good. :) Don't try to go instinctive Hbox mode like a like of Puffs do; spamming bairs works on certain characters and in certain scenarios but it's more important to see what works best in the MU.
 

boomrested

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Messages
215
Having a lot of trouble with spacies dealing with their constant pressure, especially falco. Can anyone offer a generalized gameplan for puff? I seem to rely on gimps like bthrow > bair and upthrow > rest way too much :|
It took me a LONG time to figure out how to deal with fox and falco. Your playstyles should be different for each one. With fox, you really want to avoid getting grabbed. This means, if they're dash dancing, you can't overcommit or you'll get upsmashed or upthrow->upaired. Spam nairs, fairs, and always go for the upthrow to rest, unless they're at something like 70% because then it gets kinda risky, IMO. Fox is harder to gimp then falco, so learn how to hit him out of his up-b without getting hit by the flames that stun you during the startup animation. If you can do this reliably, kills will happen much faster.
General Fox summary: Don't overcommit with aerials/other moves while fox is dashdancing, it will most likely get you punished. Stay in the air unless you're going for a grab. Aim moves where you THINK fox will be next, this is good because fox is so fast and can avoid a lot of your moves unless you put the move somewhere that he will run into it(nairs and fairs, also pound!) Upthrow to rest, edgeguard him, do whatever. Watch out for that upsmash.

I'll do one on falco later. Check out the Mahone Stuff about Puff thread for more matchup guides.

Edit: Ninja'd by Krynxe, thought he was Mahone for some reason. My bad haha
 

Krynxe

I can't pronounce it either
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Sorry for completely screwing with your post Boomrested. I clicked the button to edit your post instead of quoting it, since I'm just getting used to having mod lol. But yeah, I'm not Mahone. :)
 

AppleAppleAZ

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
318
Location
Ayy Zeee
Yeah, there's a lot to cover with the spacies mu's. I'll try not to go too far in depth, to put it simply there's a lot of tricks that work on either one that you should utilize. One extremely important thing is not to treat the two of them the same at all. Puff is an extremely mental-oriented character, you have to make them be scared to do anything punishable and control the match and the map. Constantly change your jump/attack patterns especially if you notice them trying to play defensive - they're stalling to try to read. Stay on their *** the entire match, don't give either spacie any room to run around and do what they want.

Fox is very quick and has an extremely deadly usmash and (uthrow+)uair, so you're usually going to die around 70-90%. Because of Fox's speed though, you can make reads pretty easily. Things like jumping at them like you're going to bair them, but then double jump and bair above their head and weave back. It either hits them as they jump or makes them scared to jump on your approaches. Also, WD oos is so good. WD back grabs are really good for gimp setups, but also wd oos fsmash can be very useful at times. You have to be creative, it's the only way to get in Fox's head. Try to think a step ahead, because Fox goes to the next step quicker than Puff.

Falco is a bit simpler. Stay above his shorthop (laser) range most of the time - after all, what's falco going to do when you're there? If they're playing campy just stay on their *** but don't go full on aggro, giving up your stage control and the potential hits you'll take approaching that way usually isn't worth it. Cornering a falco by the edge is exactly what you want to do. Bairs are a lot better in this mu, aim for the area right on front of and above their head. Falco can't really kill puff easily, just keep an eye out for utilts and dtilts at high percents - stay distant and safe. One of the biggest annoyances at first is dealing with dair spam, but once you get used to punishing it they have nothing left to turn to. (Falco's dair has very little horizontal coverage, just stay mobile and you can easily dodge and punish.) At this point, Falcos will have to start fullhoping and running around the stage looking for opportunities. If you just don't give them anything to work with, this mu isn't very hard.

And for both of these MUs, especially vs Fox, weaving nairs are so good. :) Don't try to go instinctive Hbox mode like a like of Puffs do; spamming bairs works on certain characters and in certain scenarios but it's more important to see what works best in the MU.
It took me a LONG time to figure out how to deal with fox and falco. Your playstyles should be different for each one. With fox, you really want to avoid getting grabbed. This means, if they're dash dancing, you can't overcommit or you'll get upsmashed or upthrow->upaired. Spam nairs, fairs, and always go for the upthrow to rest, unless they're at something like 70% because then it gets kinda risky, IMO. Fox is harder to gimp then falco, so learn how to hit him out of his up-b without getting hit by the flames that stun you during the startup animation. If you can do this reliably, kills will happen much faster.
General Fox summary: Don't overcommit with aerials/other moves while fox is dashdancing, it will most likely get you punished. Stay in the air unless you're going for a grab. Aim moves where you THINK fox will be next, this is good because fox is so fast and can avoid a lot of your moves unless you put the move somewhere that he will run into it(nairs and fairs, also pound!) Upthrow to rest, edgeguard him, do whatever. Watch out for that upsmash.

I'll do one on falco later. Check out the Mahone Stuff about Puff thread for more matchup guides.

Edit: Ninja'd by Krynxe, thought he was Mahone for some reason. My bad haha
Thanks so much, this really helps me lots :)
 

Krynxe

I can't pronounce it either
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No problem. Don't hesitate to ask questions or start discussions here. :)
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
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Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
This character requires a lot of dedication, it seems. Having just a Puff "secondary" doesn't seem to be working. Guess I'll start using her more. =3

What do you guys think about Marth? I've personally thought she wins the MU, and I find it to be sort of easy, but I'm curious on what others think.

Also, how do you mitigate her lack of OoS options? (other than WD OoS) I find that the moment I'm in shield as Puff, I lose.
 

Krynxe

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For her oos options, I primarily just nair oos or wd oos to grab, jab, or fsmash or I'll occasionally wd oos shffl bair or something like that. One useful thing to do, which I picked up from watching hbox, is if you're in a situation where you're in your shield right by their shield, do a shorthop uair and catch them jumping oos. You can get an easy rest or combo on heavier characters.

You just have to be very patient with marth, and it isn't very difficult.
 

boomrested

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Messages
215
Patience wins the marth matchup. That's it. The second you get overconfident because you got a rest/gimp, that's how you lose. You always, always, always need to be on the defensive against him. I personally love jumping oos against marth. I'll crouch in front of them, smart marths will fsmash instead of grab, I shield and then jump oos to rest them. Then they get nervous and second-guess what they'll do before they do it, by which point you've basically won. I've been doing a lot of thinking on how valuable early rests are. If you can get one in the first 15 seconds, then if you have a half decent puff, you should win.
 

Krynxe

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I'll crouch in front of them, smart marths will fsmash instead of grab
A smart Marth would neither fsmash nor grab. A smart Marth would probably wd back and do something from there, like shffl fair or d/ftilt
 

crush

Smash Master
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A smart Marth would neither fsmash nor grab. A smart Marth would probably wd back and do something from there, like shffl fair or d/ftilt
wtf why would a good marth shffl fair do you know anything about smash go back to the sand box or the swing sets or wherever you came from n00b
 

Krynxe

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I said that the marth would wd back first. The shffl fair would be to put out a safe hitbox in case the puff tries to jump towards the marth at this time - the marth is too distance to be effectively punished and if the puff gets hit, the marth can follow up because the puff should be in the air if they're approaching/getting hit by a retreating fair.
 

Exeggutorr

Smash Cadet
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I'm kinda new to the competitive scene although i played melee on and off when I was younger. I just got into Jiggly and and probably going to main her because she is just to much fun. Anyways as a beginner here what should I be focusing on practicing as Jiggz? Any other pointers are appreciated also.
 

Bing

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a crouching puff. she can just jab him or grab him because croucrhing amkes you have lesss tun
yeah a Crouching puff is Dangerous but fair is your best option... what else you gunna do... stare at it?

I'm kinda new to the competitive scene although i played melee on and off when I was younger. I just got into Jiggly and and probably going to main her because she is just to much fun. Anyways as a beginner here what should I be focusing on practicing as Jiggz? Any other pointers are appreciated also.

So Im not a Puff main but I do sorta secondary her. A few basic tips are learn to control space well, spaced bairs are amazing. Rest isnt as good vs People as vs computers. Just make sure you can hit them like 120% of time against computers before relying on them against humans. Crouch Cancelling is Amazing especially for Jiggs. Dont be afraid to get up in there face while crouch cancelling, it scares people because you can always pop up and rest.

Im probably wrong but thats what i think. Hope it helps :)
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
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Focusing on auto-cancelling aerials (Nair, bair, fair, uair), L-cancelling them (especially dair, because if you hit their feet just right, you can guarantee a grab), practice moving through the air with aerials (retreating fairs/nairs/bairs, advancing fairs/nairs/bairs, etc), short hop uair, full jump uair, DJ uair, etc. Just practice being able to move in whichever way you want with any aerial at any time. Watch some Hungrybox, look at what he tries to do with his aerials, and work on trying to imitate that (I am not saying imitate his gameplay, but look at how he uses the air as Puff, and study the different things he does with her aerials and her mobility).

Ground mvoement is important, too. Wavedashing is key. Make sure you can WD OoS after having your shield hit, and without having you shield hit. And practice your non-Rest and Rest combos (utilt rest, uair rest, bair chains, uair chains, pound Rest, dair grab, etc.)

I hope this helps some, and isn't too confusing. :)
 

Krynxe

I can't pronounce it either
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Exeggutorr, visit this thread if you need help with understanding smash terminology:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=42749

It's usually good to have the universal basics down before worrying about character specific stuff.

When/If you have all that down, you should look at Mahone's thread if you're interested in learning about Puff. There's a lot of useful information against some of the most common characters you'll see in the competitive scene. If you have any questions, feel free to post here. Don't forget about the search feature either, there's a lot of great guides and detailed explanations already on the boards. People here can always point you in the right direction, too. Hope this helps. :)
 

Mahone

Smash Champion
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Mahowned 3: Return of the King

there's no vid, I just thought the title was clever and no one is posting anything.... Oh and Idea, I never told you, I hate you for not lying at apex so we could play on the tv.... Also tekk, when you come to America I will **** you with my godlike fox, until then stay in school.... And krynxe, sorry u had to see that trolling post, the world outside the puff boards is a terrible place, you should not read my posts there, they are often very cruel and dark

:phone:
 

FoxLisk

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
1,851
Mahowned 3: Return of the King

there's no vid, I just thought the title was clever and no one is posting anything.... Oh and Idea, I never told you, I hate you for not lying at apex so we could play on the tv.... Also tekk, when you come to America I will **** you with my godlike fox, until then stay in school.... And krynxe, sorry u had to see that trolling post, the world outside the puff boards is a terrible place, you should not read my posts there, they are often very cruel and dark

:phone:
Krynxe: Everything the light touches... But what about that shadowy place?
Mahone: That's beyond our borders. You must never go there, Simba Krynxe
 

Tekk

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lol mahone im gonna expose you so bad you'll be embarrassed
now what do you think of that, smartass
 

idea

Smash Master
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Come By Chance Mews
Mahowned 3: Return of the King

there's no vid, I just thought the title was clever and no one is posting anything.... Oh and Idea, I never told you, I hate you for not lying at apex so we could play on the tv.... Also tekk, when you come to America I will **** you with my godlike fox, until then stay in school.... And krynxe, sorry u had to see that trolling post, the world outside the puff boards is a terrible place, you should not read my posts there, they are often very cruel and dark

:phone:
i'm honest to a fault :p
 

Republican0fHeaven

Smash Ace
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namesearch hbox

answer this question...

I notice when you play you're aerial mobility weaves in and out as you jump/fall. Maybe that's it? I rarely do that. Prob should
 

Krynxe

I can't pronounce it either
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Shoutouts to Prince Abu, taking 2nd place at Sweet VII and causing major upsets by only losing to Teczero. Keep on puffing, man.
 
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