Krynxe
I can't pronounce it either
i wonder if i could implement that. hmm
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Social Bair is underpowered - Puff Social/Disc Thread
- Thread starter Krynxe
- Start date
Bones0
Smash Legend
WDing would be better.
YouKnowBruno
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- May 8, 2013
- Messages
- 11
How about them Giants?
Mahone
Smash Champion
u gotta get into the skype chat if u wanna see the real action
smashboards is old news
smashboards is old news
JeezImSoBored
Smash Apprentice
wat skype chat? sounds like a lot of fun :D
Bones0
Smash Legend
Post your Skype (or PM me).
JeezImSoBored
Smash Apprentice
my skype: jeezimsobored
Krynxe
I can't pronounce it either
you guys are trying that again? lol
KrIsP!
Smash Champion
I forget my Skype but I'll post it later unless you can just add me mahone
MaPow
Smash Apprentice
Hey I have a quick question...does puffs Fair or Nair have enough shield-stun to pull off a grab? I know if u soft spot a Fair and it hits you can grab, but my friend constantly shield grabs me (plus he's usually marth or sheik and he's ness in P:M so it's never good), and I'm wondering if I'm not L canceling properly or if it just doesn't happen and I should just space my aerials in case they are shielded.
In no way is that possible. Your OoS action is just too slow because in Melee you have to very precise with your defensive options. If you are even a frame too early you won't do anything but release the shield and then get grabbed. Hold shield and the cstick to a direction to buffer a roll or something and you should never get grabbed that way.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Maybe I misunderstood him, but I think he was asking if he could late aerial and grab before their stun is over, which you most definitely cannot do. Just work on weaving back out of their grab range right before you land.
Kaizer
Smash Journeyman
when you throw in a jab after late aerials, you'll sometimes throw your opponent off and punish him for it, if you're anticipating a shield grab/other stuff in general. or maybe a more safe approach in such a case could be nair -> float back -> instant dashattack hungryboxstyle. mixups et. al. attack - weaving out - attack-setups are usually the way to go, but sometimes it's great to try to pressure your opponents shield with janky jabs or dairs.
MaPow
Smash Apprentice
I asked what bones0 was referring to, but thanks for that lick of info anyway. And I guess I'll just work on my spacing so I won't get grabbed as often. But is there a way to punish someone who just holds their shield when I try to approach with my aerials? I usually just get close enough to make him come out of the shield with some Fairs or throw out an Fsmash. Then I just punish that with Bair or whatever's appropriate.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Try tomahawking more (tomahawk is just slang for landing without attacking and grabbing). Zone with late bairs and fairs spaced out of their grab range for a little, just to establish the threat, then feint another approach that looks the same as your previous ones, but simply land and grab, crouch, or utilt. If you have the opportunity to cross them up while empty hopping around their shield, doing that can help you avoid characters' forward-facing OoS options which are typically better (grab, Fox's usmash OoS, Falco's dair OoS, etc. are all forward-facing options).
Massive
Smash Champion
If they just sit in shield you can also toss out a dair and shield poke with decent frequency. If it doesn't poke, land behind them and do the delayed utilt or whatever floats your boat (charging usmash has worked pretty well for me recently).
But more importantly, you shouldn't be landing in front of anybody close enough to be shieldgrabbed, basically ever. Pretty much don't land with fair out. There's not really a good reason to do it (land with fair) since faster characters like fox can dash-dance grab you out of the landlag (even l-cancelled). If you're have to land close to someone with an aerial, land behind them or don't land at all.
MaPow
Smash Apprentice
Alright thanks, i understand what you mean bones0. Basically i just need to establish myself with WoP/whatever else gets my spacing, then i can start going in for up-airs and up-tilts to get that sweet rest or other combos to get them offstage.
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
Chess master Aron Nimzovich had a saying, "The threat is stronger than the execution." What that means Melee-wise is that when they are in their shield and you are right in front of them (spaced properly!!!), possibly crouching, they can't really touch you but they have to worry about getting grabbed. If they do nothing about this threat, you can grab them. If they panic and jump or do something else that doesn't connect, you can possibly utilt and/or maybe rest them, or aerial them after their thing, or possibly get the grab anyways. If they panic roll, you can start an aerial combo that leads to rest or puts them offstage where you can edgeguard for the kill, or fsmash them, or possibly get the grab anyways in certain situations. ... There generally isn't much else they can do, their options are really limited when they are shielding.
In other words, simply being right in front of them and threatening to execute plan ****-them-up-when-they-are-shielding is a better situation for you than straight-up executing plan ****-them-up-when-they-are-shielding with an aerial on their shield. It probably won't connect, and even if you l-cancel, it is slower than just landing and you won't have time to do any of the above actions to **** them up. As -LzR- and Massive have pointed out, it's more likely to get you punished than do anything useful. That is why Bones0 recommends the empty jump (meaning the jump without doing an aerial), because it puts you in a better situation, which can be just as much a strategic victory as landing a hit.
Of course, all these threatening and executing shenanigans don't mean anything if you can't get them to shield. This is where the WoP comes in. The WoP and spaced aerials whilst weaving away trains them to shield a lot, because they can't really do much else if you do it right. Then you can commence the shenanigans to exploit the false sense of security they get by shielding.
Combos have their place in Melee, but when it comes down to going for a hit you're not sure will connect (e.g., aerial on shield) vs. something that will cover more of their options (e.g., empty jump and spaced landing), it's usually better to go for option coverage. <- Took me forever to figure that out, so try to learn it nice and early before you develop bad habits.
MaPow
Smash Apprentice
This. This makes a lot of things clear. Sometimes I have no idea what to do so I just attack with a flurry of aerials that most likely get shielded. Usually at the start of a match WoP works well, but the people I play with will usually adjust and start shielding my Bairs/Fairs. And then I wouldn't know what to do, but now ill try to get in their heads with empty jumps and up tilts to cover their options. I need to practice landing with the perfect spacing next to their shield, and then punish their reaction because that one man I play with likes to shield a ton when he feels in danger.
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
Glad to be of service 8D
At this point, your goal should be to learn what options your opponent has in their shield (which affects how to space the landing, whether to crouch or land behind them, etc.) and mentally prepare yourself to counter any and all of them. What that means is to figure out what they can do (varies by character and skill level), what you can do to beat each option (sometimes there are multiple counters you can mix up), what visual or audio clues to look for to determine what they're doing as early as possible / how to read your opponent to predict their actions, and then hone your reaction times until you are able to pull it all off. Following that decision tree can be difficult at first, but don't get discouraged because you're on the right track.
MaPow
Smash Apprentice
I will definitely work on reading my opponents options OoS when i play this weekend. Again thanks so much i hope this helps me improve even more.
boomrested
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2011
- Messages
- 215
Oh god. Is the Skype chat back?
Bones0
Smash Legend
It was for like a week. lol
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Skype chats never last long.
Mahone
Smash Champion
lol, say the two people who are never on/busy...
we upgraded to playing online games and stuff, its sweet, just get on
also, do u guys realize link can chain-grab every character?
we upgraded to playing online games and stuff, its sweet, just get on
also, do u guys realize link can chain-grab every character?
Krynxe
I can't pronounce it either
even floaties? with dthrow?
KrIsP!
Smash Champion
He can.... Chain...grab. I'm assuming that was what he meant.
And what do you mean playing games, Skype chat died so I left, doesn't even show up anymore for me.
And what do you mean playing games, Skype chat died so I left, doesn't even show up anymore for me.
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
He can also chain-grab vertical surfaces. When he wants a hug, he gets a hug.
Speaking of grabs, am I the only one to think it's strange that Puff's dthrow deals up to 8% damage, despite the fact that a 12 lb balloon rolling around on your back would probably feel more like a gentle massage?
Bones0
Smash Legend
I think the logic behind falling asleep being one of the best KO moves in the game should be questioned before her dthrow.
Mahone
Smash Champion
grounded pound has too much lag, so never that
Bones0
Smash Legend
Hbox disagrees.
I feel like they have the same amount of lag, but it seems like more with grounded pounds because you can't start drifting away before it's over. I could be wrong though. Someone should test with Wavebirds. Just put one Puff on a side plat and one under the side plat, have them both run to center stage, and then Pound and Rest asap. If you can get one to Rest without the other then there is a difference in lag.
Also, here is some detailed stuff about Marth's throw combos on Puff.
Massive
Smash Champion
Speaking of which, can anyone do that fancy ledgestall on puff? Mofo lists it as possible to do, but I have yet to figure it out.
KrIsP!
Smash Champion
I tried, if I'm doing it right its really slow compared to other characters, I'd like to see M2K try it.
And that marth thread... Damn we don't have the kind of depth here lol
Edit: alrighty read the thread again, missed step 4, fast fall. I gotta check how long she has invincibility though, I feel like if her body is above the ledge without invincibility she's at risk.
And that marth thread... Damn we don't have the kind of depth here lol
Edit: alrighty read the thread again, missed step 4, fast fall. I gotta check how long she has invincibility though, I feel like if her body is above the ledge without invincibility she's at risk.
Massive
Smash Champion
It has been said before, but Jigglypuff has a tragically underdeveloped metagame.
To be fair, being technical doesn't really grant jigglpuff any real advantage over playing smart, so we don't need to worry about single frame mechanics.
The only thing like that we could seriously all work on is probably the DI on fox's uair. If there was a way to innovate on that (or at least make it easier/more reliable) we could pretty easily remove the teeth of what is arguably puff's worst matchup... that or Foxes will start going for the second hit only.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
is there a list (or a simple answer) of the grabs that Puff can crouch under?
MaPow
Smash Apprentice
http://smashboards.com/threads/list-of-grabs-i-can-duck-under.335720/#post-15499656
this thread should help, Massive put a list.
this thread should help, Massive put a list.
AppleAppleAZ
Smash Journeyman
So, shield drop rest...thoughts?
Bones0
Smash Legend
They have to be so deep on your shield for it to ever work that it's really not anything to rely on. Shield drop uair is where it's at. That can lead to rests in its own right.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
either move sounds like a good punishment for an isolated case of horrible spacing
I mean if people get uthrown->rested or they roll towards the stage and get fsmashed constanstly then this could happen just as easily.
Maybe you could even bait out something with WD back on a platform (i.e. the opposite of Falco being at center stage utilt'ing but this is a safer, sort of). Worst case scenario they don't jump at you so you can just jump or shield drop.
I mean if people get uthrown->rested or they roll towards the stage and get fsmashed constanstly then this could happen just as easily.
Maybe you could even bait out something with WD back on a platform (i.e. the opposite of Falco being at center stage utilt'ing but this is a safer, sort of). Worst case scenario they don't jump at you so you can just jump or shield drop.