Bad Idea Mafia Redux! GAME OVER!

[Nicholas1024]

Wait, what? How have I been defending Ronike?

 

[CT Chia]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10727394&postcount=391

 

[Nicholas1024]

On the contrary. My point is that he's a good player, and is definitely capable of sound reasoning, and I was just correcting Overswarm on that point. If you read Overswarm's posts, I believe he DIDN'T find Ronike scummy because he thought Ronike was a bad player.

 

[Overswarm]

On the contrary. My point is that he's a good player, and is definitely capable of sound reasoning, and I was just correcting Overswarm on that point. If you read Overswarm's posts, I believe he DIDN'T find Ronike scummy because he thought Ronike was a bad player.

Nicholas is correct in this, at least in part.

I didn't say Ronike couldn't have good reads, just that he can't articulate anything and his logic is flawed nine times out of ten.

 

[Ronike]

I freely admit I have problems with articulation from time to time, but just because my logic is different from yours doesn't make it unsound. Plus, you have admitted to being frustrated in the past by unsound logic, have you not? You aren't the only one, and People don't always think clearly when they are frustrated, which tends to result in slips, if not in posts than in reasons behind posts. And that's where you find scum. At least, where I do.

@Nick: ah, I see now, you think just because I'm not making 1000+ word posts I'm not contributing. Well:
A) smashboards mobile has no multi quote button, and even if it did, splicing in responses as I used to would be too difficult. If you never noticed, most of my "super posts" consisted of lots of quote and evaluations of said quotes.
B) being on my phone means it's a pain to type long things, so i tend to try and condense my posts. Again, tourneys pretty much thr only example pf this I have.
C) I still don't have many leads. This means no super posts even if I had internets.

 

[KevinM]

Request Xonar / EauxLune Prod

Rockin, I totally asked you questions!

KevBro, be more specific. Do you just "not like it" or do you actually find it suspect? Why would you want us to question the motive behind everything you post? As a townie why would you want us to concern ourselves with it?

Because what possible benefit does a townie have setting artificial criteria, especially in a game like this where there is a lot up to chance.

 

[Ronike]

What do you even mean by artificial criteria?

 

[Rockin]

I wish Teemo would post up already =/

 

[Overswarm]

Because what possible benefit does a townie have setting artificial criteria, especially in a game like this where there is a lot up to chance.

I'm gonna have to agree with this.

The essentially chaotic nature of Daykills in this game make it harder for scum to really plan anything. While I don't want people repeatedly shooting from the hip, meticulously planning everything to a T just gives mafia a blueprint with what to manipulate. More importantly, any one townie can screw the entire thing up by Daykilling early.

Just build a case if you're going to shoot, and don't get trigger happy.

 

[Ronike]

How is dictating who shoots meticulously planning? How would mafia manipulate this? Why should we automatically assume that town will be idiots and quickshoot instead of following a plan?

I really don't like os' last post. All it seems to be doing to me is trying to limit thr towns options by using words that make it seem pro-town.

@Kevin: if the artificial criteria you are speaking if is dictating who shoots, by doing so we get to choose who is pretty much clear. What's not pro-town about that?

 

[Overswarm]

How is dictating who shoots meticulously planning? How would mafia manipulate this? Why should we automatically assume that town will be idiots and quickshoot instead of following a plan?

I really don't like os' last post. All it seems to be doing to me is trying to limit thr towns options by using words that make it seem pro-town.

*facepalm*

Randomly shooting won't help, but putting in strict rules puts on a straight course, for better or worse. We have the option to adapt and be malleable. If someone truly feels that scum is manipulating who is getting shot, they have no way out and if they shoot, they get shot the next day unless they hit scum. That's bad. Or we could ignore it, meaning there's no punishment and people don't have to follow the rules. That's bad.

Do you think we should kill Teemo, Ronike? I don't. He's probably town (although I did notice how soon Flame posted his response to Teemo, which is indicative of out-of-game conversations leading up to the Daykill, which could be scummy).

What should we do if someone breaks the rules? Shoot them just because? What form of punishment could they possibly have, seeing as how if someone shoots they could be a Godfather or a townie and nothing else?


It's one thing to be smart, but another to be rigid. Teemo shouldn't shoot again, for one. Others should so we know who is either town or godfather. That doesn't mean we should try to follow a strict plan every Day that is the exact same. We can adapt and make things much harder for mafia to control.

 

[Ronike]

Don't even facepalm me, that's far from what you said in the post I was talking about. Your previous post said nothing of being malleable or any of the downfalls of being strict. It said planning allowed scum to manipulate us. That question you still haven't answered, all you've said is that town could easily disrupt said plan, which I realize. However, most people should realize this isn't optimal play and shouldn't do it. Nearly everyon frowned on teemo for the quickshoot, so I would expect everyone to not quickshoot from here on out.

So yeah, don't like that you tried to cover up the scummy post by making me out as stupid. I wasn't. Now convince me not to shoot you.

 

[Overswarm]

Nearly everyon frowned on teemo for the quickshoot,

We sure showed him. >_>

You tasting those frowns, Teemo? Huh? Huh? How'd they taste?! Best watch yo self or you gonna get a full on GRIMACE from us. Straight outta nowhere. BAM.

Really though, it isn't that complicated. I like the idea, I do, it just isn't a good long term strategy. We can follow it along for now, but we shouldn't ostracize people that go against it. The only people that can shoot are the Godfather and Town, meaning they are MORE likely to be town by going against it than not. Since the only benefit we get from following a plan to the T is a set order of operations, it doesn't really help. It just looks nice and more familiar, and is something consistent for scum to manipulate. It's a lot harder to manipulate a series of individuals, so scum will have to stick their neck out to force a shot on anyone since they can't shoot in the first place.

One thing we CAN agree on is that no one shoots twice. That's pretty obvious, I think. If anyone has any other ideas on this, speak up.



@Ronike

Why do you keep calling what Teemo did a "quickshoot"? It wasn't. Chaco made some pretty grievous errors, multiple people did the pseudo-vote for him, and Chaco himself basically gave up and talked about how his "gambit" didn't help town and was dumb. Teemo's shot was pretty straight forward. Whose permission did he need?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

if they shoot, they get shot the next day unless they hit scum.

No!

Or we could ignore it, meaning there's no punishment and people don't have to follow the rules. That's bad.

The hell are you talking about?

- Punishing somebody for a misshot? Horrible mindset
- What "rules" are you talking about?
- Not punishing = ignoring since when?

 

[Overswarm]

No!



The hell are you talking about?

- Punishing somebody for a misshot? Horrible mindset
- What "rules" are you talking about?
- Not punishing = ignoring since when?

...


Gheb, you haven't been paying attention.

I'm gonna go ahead and let you go back and read carefully as to what we're talking about. Post when you're done.

Finger of SHAME: Gheb

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If it includes reading through major walls of text I'm out -.-

 

[Overswarm]

updated for finger of shame pic

 

[Overswarm]

If it includes reading through major walls of text I'm out -.-

Play the ****ing game. It's like 4 or 5 posts.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

w/e man, I think the best thing to happen would be KevMo shooting Eaux or Xonar

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Or I could shoot if ppl think I'm scummy but doubt I'm GF (based on my play so far).

 

[Ronike]

Did we want Chaco shot when teemo did so? No. Did it shorten the day when conversation was ongoing? Yes. Did we have prior warning that teemo was going to shoot Chaco? No. All this = quickshotting. It wasn't insta quickshot (I.e day start shot) but it was a quickshot.

Os is back on my list of suspects as I feel he's just covering a mistake now. Thoughts on this?

Oh, and while I got a good laugh out of the whole paragraph about frowning at teemo, my point was I don't think others will quickshot at this point, or at least not without some warning. Yes we didn't "punish" teemo but there was no way to do so.

 

[Overswarm]

Or I could shoot if ppl think I'm scummy but doubt I'm GF (based on my play so far).

I don't think you're a GF at all, so actually having you shoot would be fine with me.

Oh, and while I got a good laugh out of the whole paragraph about frowning at teemo, my point was I don't think others will quickshot at this point, or at least not without some warning. Yes we didn't "punish" teemo but there was no way to do so.

Nor is there a way to punish anyone else. There are enough strong personalities to where someone will just say "**** you' and shoot anyway if they think it is for the good of town, especially if they find you scummy. I'm on your list of suspects, if you wanted to shoot someone and I said "don't do it" would you not be able to shoot just because I asked you not to? What if I rallied support for you not to and you didn't like how I did it?

Everyone just play smart, no one shoot twice, and shoot for a reason.

 

[Ronike]

I haven't shot you yet have I? And I'm asking for thoughts on you instead of just shooting you, aren't I? I think that answers your question well enough

I agree with the last paragraph for the record.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm more suspicious of people standing on the sidlines during these debates. Ronike, Nick, OS and Rockin are all cool with me right now and can stay.

 

[Overswarm]

Gheb, who are you going to shoot toDay?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'll wait if EauxLune gets a replacement / comes back and Xonar comes back. If both of them start to actually play I'm going with ligolski or McCloud.

 

[Overswarm]

I'll wait if EauxLune gets a replacement / comes back and Xonar comes back. If both of them start to actually play I'm going with ligolski or McCloud.

I just thought of something fun.


Pick someone else to choose which one gets shot.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Go ahead then.

 

[Overswarm]

Go ahead then.

Interesting.

You have no one else in the game you'd rather have shoot?


I'm confused, Gheb.

w/e man, I think the best thing to happen would be KevMo shooting Eaux or Xonar

I'll wait if EauxLune gets a replacement / comes back and Xonar comes back. If both of them start to actually play I'm going with ligolski or McCloud.

The reason I asked is because you had five suspects:

KevMo, Eaux, Xonar, Ligolski, or McCloud.

One could die.

Even if you narrowed it down to your last two (Ligolski/McCloud) the logical solution would be for one of them to shoot the other, killing two birds with one stone.


What's the deal, Gheb?

 

[Rockin]

Quick question to all

Does everyone find it bothersome that Teemo has hardly said a thing D2?

How about Mentos slightly lack of contribution?

I'm sorry, but it just bothers me that the guy shot someone BEFORE even telling his reason/accussion of said target, got a bit of flak on twilight, then is coasting along D2. >_>

 

[M.K]

Quick question to all

Does everyone find it bothersome that Teemo has hardly said a thing D2?

Yes. Yes. Yes.
This is exactly what I said during Twilight. Nobody would question his motives or why he did, just cuz he's Tom/EE, and it was "supposedly" the right thing to do.

 

[Nicholas1024]

@Rockin
I was in Teemo's corner D1, but I'm somewhat bothered by his silence now.

 

[Overswarm]

Quick question to all

Does everyone find it bothersome that Teemo has hardly said a thing D2?

How about Mentos slightly lack of contribution?

I'm sorry, but it just bothers me that the guy shot someone BEFORE even telling his reason/accussion of said target, got a bit of flak on twilight, then is coasting along D2. >_>

What do you want?

Teemo is a possible godfather, possible townie. Bam. Done. We have all the concrete information we're going to get without shooting him.

So our options are:

Guess he's a godfather and shoot him

or

Wait until later to shoot him


Since the 2nd option gives us two pieces of information (alignment of shot player and proof that other player can shoot), we want to choose that.

More importantly, the first option doesn't do mcuh since we'd just get another godfather later.

 

[ligolski]

We sure showed him. >_>

You tasting those frowns, Teemo? Huh? Huh? How'd they taste?! Best watch yo self or you gonna get a full on GRIMACE from us. Straight outta nowhere. BAM.

Really though, it isn't that complicated. I like the idea, I do, it just isn't a good long term strategy. We can follow it along for now, but we shouldn't ostracize people that go against it. The only people that can shoot are the Godfather and Town, meaning they are MORE likely to be town by going against it than not. Since the only benefit we get from following a plan to the T is a set order of operations, it doesn't really help. It just looks nice and more familiar, and is something consistent for scum to manipulate. It's a lot harder to manipulate a series of individuals, so scum will have to stick their neck out to force a shot on anyone since they can't shoot in the first place.

One thing we CAN agree on is that no one shoots twice. That's pretty obvious, I think. If anyone has any other ideas on this, speak up.



@Ronike

Why do you keep calling what Teemo did a "quickshoot"? It wasn't. Chaco made some pretty grievous errors, multiple people did the pseudo-vote for him, and Chaco himself basically gave up and talked about how his "gambit" didn't help town and was dumb. Teemo's shot was pretty straight forward. Whose permission did he need?

One thing to also consider is that by having each person only shoot once is that we will start to give limiting down for the mafia who our cops and bombs are. It's an interesting dilemma in my opinion. For now the numbers are with us to make this ok and I really like the logic behind it, there are just some side-affects so to speak.

I'll wait if EauxLune gets a replacement / comes back and Xonar comes back. If both of them start to actually play I'm going with ligolski or McCloud.

I'd really like to hear your logic on why you would want me dead. ie: why am I scummy?

 

[McCloud]

Back from vacay. Catching up. Maybe I'll shoot, maybe I wont.

 

[CT Chia]

Quick question to all

Does everyone find it bothersome that Teemo has hardly said a thing D2?

Knowing Tom, I'm not particularly worried about it. Not giving him an excuse or anything, but there's been plenty of periods where Tom is all of a sudden inactive in games and is town still (most of the time). Though the fact that it's a hydra is makin' me wonder about the EE in TEEMO.

I noticed it as well but it's not a course for concern yet imo

 

[eauxlune]

One thing to also consider is that by having each person only shoot once is that we will start to give limiting down for the mafia who our cops and bombs are. It's an interesting dilemma in my opinion. For now the numbers are with us to make this ok and I really like the logic behind it, there are just some side-affects so to speak.

The less shooters we have later in the game, the easier it becomes for a GF to gimp us with a bomb. I almost want to take your logic a step further and say that unless we have considerable doubt that Teemo is town, if we have a set person we want to shoot, he should do the shooting. There's only ~a 9% chance that he's the GF, but he's the only person of us 15 who is alive that has confirmed his shooting ability. In the situation that he is, the long, stacking, shared daykill cooldown will help us out a ton, in the situation that he isn't, we aren't gimping the other 9 good guns.

Not much of a slap on the wrist for making the blunder of killing a townie (who, in his defense, wasn't being too helpful,) but give me your thoughts on this.

 

[eauxlune]

Correction: 14 of us, 10% chance, 8 other guns.

 

[Ronike]

Eauxlane, no comment about inactivity? Super pro-scum post? Congratulations!!! You're pretty **** near top of my scumlist.

 

[Nicholas1024]

eauxlune, I disagree. Although we probably shouldn't carry the scummy guy shoots thing too far, we definitely should use it early on. It gives us some semi-clears, and it doesn't increase mafia's odds of hitting a bomb by much.