They have to hit the ground again. I don't believe hard knockdown counts for this, but I'm probably wrong on that. You may be able to stun them during landing frames, but I honestly don't recall if those can be canceled with block. They probably can.
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B&B! Zero Suit General Discussion
- Thread starter SinisterB
- Start date
BleachigoZX
Smash Master
Um, you can only stun once until they touch the floor.
hard knockdowns count, and you can probably stun during landing frames (see zss vs fox dsmash infinites in brawl)but its more than likely impossible to do on purpose in this game
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you can stun them the next time they land.
Although it's crazy hard to pull off against anyone good. Lol
Professor Pro
Smash Legend
???
What did I do lol????
Was already in the game when I joined the PMDT, I didn't give Snake it actually.
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Shokio
Netplay 4 Days
Some serious allegations going on here lol.
BleachigoZX
Smash Master
i was wrong af, it was Jolteon
Professor Pro
Smash Legend
What did Jolteon do, and how do you know he did whatever he done lol?
BleachigoZX
Smash Master
I've seen the pmbr lol
Gadiel_VaStar
Smash Champion
Thanks for the tips guys. Bleachigo, you are very impressive, keep it up! I love your usage of the spaced B-reversed B move.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
Lock him down with lasers and outspace him/push him off stage.
Edit: Don't get hit
Edit 2: or grabbed.
Edit: Don't get hit
Edit 2: or grabbed.
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I keep hearing players considering or going ahead and picking up ZSS as a counter to Marth. What traits or strategies are considered to give Marth a hard time in the MU? I've never really heard it explained in depth: not that I agree or disagree, just really curious since I seem to be missing out on something.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
Honestly I don't believe it is a hard counter at all. It feels more like a relatively even matchup. The only moves ZSS has that outrange marth besides laser are sideB which is slow and reactable in addition to being CCAble until relatively high percents, fsmash which is also reactable and super unsafe on shield, and Dsmash. Honestly the only time DSmash is remotely a "winning" move in neutral is when Marth just starts swinging while moving towards you in neutral. A grounded Marth with a good shield game shuts down a lot of what ZSS can offer, and Marth is one of the best non-multi jump characters in the game at edgeguarding tethers (yes he can actually do it OMG!).
The matchup feels very punish heavy similar to say Marth/Falcon. Both characters have a few reliable combo starts and BnBs to either set up edgeguards or kills. ZSS likely has the stronger punish game, while despite ZSS likely having stage control a majority of the matchup, loses neutral (not having a purple button vs fast characters sucks). Actually it might be debatable about the punish game thing. ZSS definitely has lengthier combos for damage building, but as per usual, ending stocks is unreliable. Marth meanwhile can kill you very early with dair due to not having an actual upB on top of being relatively light for early-ish tipper kills.
Honestly if people think they are better than Sethlon is at the matchup, then by all means go for it. At LTC1, @
DMG
, we did a money match where I won 3-2, but Sethlon ran it back later and beat me more handily than I won our money match. Not saying Sethlon is the best Marth in the world (he is pretty good), but the amount of knowledge he has of both marth and ZSS on top of his player skill means a lot.
The matchup feels very punish heavy similar to say Marth/Falcon. Both characters have a few reliable combo starts and BnBs to either set up edgeguards or kills. ZSS likely has the stronger punish game, while despite ZSS likely having stage control a majority of the matchup, loses neutral (not having a purple button vs fast characters sucks). Actually it might be debatable about the punish game thing. ZSS definitely has lengthier combos for damage building, but as per usual, ending stocks is unreliable. Marth meanwhile can kill you very early with dair due to not having an actual upB on top of being relatively light for early-ish tipper kills.
Honestly if people think they are better than Sethlon is at the matchup, then by all means go for it. At LTC1, @
DMG
, we did a money match where I won 3-2, but Sethlon ran it back later and beat me more handily than I won our money match. Not saying Sethlon is the best Marth in the world (he is pretty good), but the amount of knowledge he has of both marth and ZSS on top of his player skill means a lot.
Ouroboro
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2014
- Messages
- 44
Is ZSS's grab really that terrible? Hear me out. I'm by no means a top tier player, and I understand that the room to punish the move is very large, and you obviously can't Shield grab, but I'd suggest using it differently. I find myself most notably using the move to success when I do pivot reads. When being chased down, or reading techs behind you or in front of you, you have an absurd amount of space to get the grab. Considering you'll be using the move a lot less than a normal character in match-ups, I also find it a good switch up on unsuspecting opponents. I get plenty of tech chases out of pivot grabs, unDi'd UpB's into dtilt, Or heck, letting them tech and reading another grab. The way I see people talk, it's like the move is useless, and I'm not sure It deserves such criticism. Perhaps someone can enlighten me.
Going for grab or pivot grab in those situations where the opponent is already vulnerable (punishable cooldown, on the floor in the middle of a tech chase, etc) is fine. Using it as a legit option to catch people running at you probably isn't a good idea. So many options can at least manage to avoid the grab in some way, and you'll eat big damage from decent chars for whiffing grab. I salivate anytime I think ZSS might, could, would, or is grabbing, cause the risk is usually slanted way against her.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
It really is that terrible. There is quite a reward for using it, but matchup depending (really any hard matchups or top tier characters) get a lot more off of a free punish when you miss a grab than you would gain. DSmash is only 5 frames slower while being substantially safer on whiff than grab and offers even more reward since you can just grab out of it anyways. Dsmash is also relatively safe on block at -4 as well.
http://www.twitch.tv/alabamasmashleague/b/579495721?t=300m
my set vs reflex from a regional this past weekend, looking for advice from u guys '-'
(itll probably be uploaded to youtube soonish)
my set vs reflex from a regional this past weekend, looking for advice from u guys '-'
(itll probably be uploaded to youtube soonish)
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Oro?!
Smash Hero
Did you want advice from the set you linked, or loser's finals?
I mean you won the set you linked?
I mean you won the set you linked?
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shapular
Smash Ace
Hey, guys. I'm one of those weird people who actually likes 3.5 ZSS more than 3.0, so I'm probably gonna try to pick her up. I have a few questions to help me get started. What are her bnbs (is daircase still a thing)? How do you deal with pressure? And how do you use down B effectively? I've never quite understood how that move is supposed to work in PM since it's so different from Brawl.
Kally Wally
Smash Ace
BnBs are basically bair spacing, upair/nair chains, good/fast movement, and training yourself to NEVER EVER USE UPSMASH EVER. Down throw techchasing might be real now but I haven't messed with that very much yet. Daircase was never real on most characters. Maybe on, like, Bowser.
Dealing with pressure is a bit easier now that we have a real grab. Upair OOS is good, maybe UpB if your opponent has bad spacing on a crossup.
DownB and hold left or right to somersault in that direction. You can jump at the apex of the somersault, or attack for a divekick. You can also walljump out of it which is very useful and slick.
Dealing with pressure is a bit easier now that we have a real grab. Upair OOS is good, maybe UpB if your opponent has bad spacing on a crossup.
DownB and hold left or right to somersault in that direction. You can jump at the apex of the somersault, or attack for a divekick. You can also walljump out of it which is very useful and slick.
Legit
Smash Apprentice
gtfo.
But for real to answer your questions:
1) No idea what her BnBs are anymore as they were all **** on by 3.5 (daircasing was never a real thing and is even less of a thing now)
2) We have an actual grab now, that's one of your best options now. I also like utilt.
3) What @
Kally Wally
said. Use it before your double jump because you get your down b jump back if you get hit. You can also reverse your momentum with it. Dive kick got a pretty decent nerf so I'd advise to use it sparingly.
shapular
Smash Ace
Does down B still have the mega spinny super jump thing from Brawl that I never figured out how to do?
Legit
Smash Apprentice
You can only do Brawl's down b jump by footstooling off of an opponent with your down b. To do so, down b, aim for your opponents head, and hit b again when you're in footstool range. You'll "footstool" them and ZSS will perform Brawl's down b jump.
Does down B still have the mega spinny super jump thing from Brawl that I never figured out how to do?
Edit: Now that I think about it, I'm not sure what you mean by "mega spinny super jump thing".... I don't remember ZSS being capable of doing anything like that lol
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Foo
Smash Lord
If you landed on someone's head or shield while in her down-b, you'd footstool off of them and go spinning off to the side very quickly, kind of like 3.0 zss max trajectory down-b
Legit
Smash Apprentice
Does down B still have the mega spinny super jump thing from Brawl that I never figured out how to do?
Ok yeah I remember that, I wouldn't call it a mega spinny super jump though lol. It's definitely spinny though
So yes she does still have it then :D
Stryker
Smash Journeyman
Nuuuu. This is a noob trap. "Lets give her a grab that seeeems better, but then her throw actually isn't." -.-
Remember before how Zss grabs were so unviable that we basically didn't use them? Yeah, it's basically the same.
Our throw "Option" is upthrow, because it's the only throw we can get a followup on. Even then, it's only at specific higher percents against most of the cast, due to excessive endlag on the throw itself.
Previously, we didn't grab because it was too risky because of endlag on missing. No we don't grab because it isn't worth throwing our opponent.
Legit
Smash Apprentice
What else are we going to do out of shield though? Despite how bad it is, it's still one of her.... least terrible options.
Legit
Smash Apprentice
Isn't going to reliably hit people next to you all the time.
Shokio
Netplay 4 Days
Hitbox isn't really ideal for that. It'll work if someone dash-attacks into your shield, but other than that.....
Not to mention that in 3.5, the hitboxes on Up-B link into the meteor hitbox worse than they did in 3.02.
Unless they changed the initial hitbox in 3.5 (dont care about the char anymore so idk) it always hits a good distance in front of her, i used to pick up falcons nairs with it.
Meteor isnt important its relieving pressure is what matters, but i guess with a normal grab it doesnt matter anymore???
Meteor isnt important its relieving pressure is what matters, but i guess with a normal grab it doesnt matter anymore???
ZSS doesn't have any particular catch-all oos option, but if you're using your shield properly, you can cover most angles if you pick the right tool. There's uair, nair, bair, dair, usmash, wd, roll, spot dodge, Plasma wire, empty sh... The list goes on. None of them are great, but they all have uses.
Fwiw, Link players never complain about having a terrible shield game. To this day, I cannot fathom why ZSS players continue to do so.
Fwiw, Link players never complain about having a terrible shield game. To this day, I cannot fathom why ZSS players continue to do so.
Shokio
Netplay 4 Days
I wasn't complaining. I think her lack of actual good OoS options is a great weakness she SHOULD have. I was just talking specifically about the Up-B not being a very great option at-all, in response to P3.
(Link players can't complain cause he has all the projectiles in the world to keep people away from shield pressuring him in the first place.)