Avengers: Endgame Spoiler Discussion

[Cutie Gwen]

I assume this was the intent behind the Ant-Man but it was still on the adult side.

Also, if they are gonna make a good FF movie, I want them acknowledging Doom being a magician because they have no excuse now.

Look, they need to have an origin story for Doom by having him be a villain protagonist for his own prequel movie.

Also make him like this

 

[dezeray112]

I assume this was the intent behind the Ant-Man but it was still on the adult side.

Also, if they are gonna make a good FF movie, I want them acknowledging Doom being a magician because they have no excuse now.

With the Fantastic Four back in the hands of Marvel Studios, I just hope they can correct the mistakes made by Josh Trank's version.

Anyways, there had been a bit of speculation about Harley Keener's role within the MCU, it maybe possible that he could become the next Iron Man (even though he won't be the same as Tony Stark) but I think he could become Iron Lad.

 

[Will]

I assume this was the intent behind the Ant-Man but it was still on the adult side.

Also, if they are gonna make a good FF movie, I want them acknowledging Doom being a magician because they have no excuse now.

dude we just got mysterio

 

[Z25]

while a origin story isn’t need outside of the movie universe. In universe they would need a pretty good explanation for the fantastic four another big super hero team to have existed and done nothing all this time. Maybe they start out in space like captain marvel.

But that would be repetitive and feel like a cop out.

 

[Will]

while a origin story isn’t need outside of the movie universe. In universe they would need a pretty good explanation for the fantastic four another big super hero team to have existed and done nothing all this time. Maybe they start out in space like captain marvel.

But that would be repetitive and feel like a cop out.

repetitive, but canon and faithful since they were astronauts

 

[osby]

With the Fantastic Four back in the hands of Marvel Studios, I just hope they can correct the mistakes made by Josh Trank's version.

Anyways, there had been a bit of speculation about Harley Keener's role within the MCU, it maybe possible that he could become the next Iron Man (even though he won't be the same as Tony Stark) but I think he could become Iron Lad.

I hope not. The only interesting thing about Iron Lad was him being young Kang.

 

[Deleted member]

while a origin story isn’t need outside of the movie universe. In universe they would need a pretty good explanation for the fantastic four another big super hero team to have existed and done nothing all this time. Maybe they start out in space like captain marvel.

But that would be repetitive and feel like a cop out.

Plenty of reasons they can give for them not having done anything(onscreen) yet:
A) They've been acting in secret for whatever reason
B) They are believed to be dead
C) They deal with mostly minor stuff
D) They haven't acted as superheroes yet
E) They formed just before the Snap so they didn't have a time to make a name for themselves just yet and at least one member got snapped

 

[Will]

iron lad's chances:

Anyways, there had been a bit of speculation about Harley Keener's role within the MCU, it maybe possible that he could become the next Iron Man (even though he won't be the same as Tony Stark) but I think he could become Iron Lad.

riri williams:


the only thing stopping them is the fact that no one liked riri williams

 

[staindgrey]

I assume this was the intent behind the Ant-Man but it was still on the adult side.

Also, if they are gonna make a good FF movie, I want them acknowledging Doom being a magician because they have no excuse now.

I would love for Doom to be a Loki-esque "first villain" for the next teamup movie.

Introduce him in FF, give him a big bad moment worthy of such a great villain, then put him into the role he often serves in modern FF comics as a reasonable yet ruthless ruler upon whom the FF occasionally have to rely.

In terms of serving the plot, he could be Loki 2.0. Just scarier and less charming.

 

[Z25]

Plenty of reasons they can give for them not having done anything(onscreen) yet:
A) They've been acting in secret for whatever reason
B) They are believed to be dead
C) They deal with mostly minor stuff
D) They haven't acted as superheroes yet
E) They formed just before the Snap so they didn't have a time to make a name for themselves just yet and at least one member got snapped

Option E would be an interesting path to explore.

I do think we’ll see the power from Thanos destroying the stones will lead to mutants being around. From one of the analysis I read, one of the people on the memorials was sunspot.

So have the FF form before the snap and X-men form after could lead to a lot of interesting story takes

 

[staindgrey]

while a origin story isn’t need outside of the movie universe. In universe they would need a pretty good explanation for the fantastic four another big super hero team to have existed and done nothing all this time. Maybe they start out in space like captain marvel.

But that would be repetitive and feel like a cop out.

Easy.

The Avengers' time traveling shenanigans weren't without consequence: When Cap returned to his original time and lived out his life as Peggy's husband, it had an unintended consequence and led to one of the Infinity Stones being used in a way that created the cosmic waves that altered the FF's DNA.

Pre-Endgame, Reed Richards & co. were just normal people.

Post-Endgame, they've been the Fantastic Four for like a decade or two already.

 

[Deleted member]

Easy.

The Avengers' time traveling shenanigans weren't without consequence: When Cap returned to his original time and lived out his life as Peggy's husband, it had an unintended consequence and led to one of the Infinity Stones being used in a way that created the cosmic waves that altered the FF's DNA.

Pre-Endgame, Reed Richards & co. were just normal people.

Post-Endgame, they've been the Fantastic Four for like a decade or two already.

But they can't change the past. Original timeline(OUR timeline) wouldn't be affected by Cap going to another timeline to live with Peggy

 

[staindgrey]

But they can't change the past. Original timeline(OUR timeline) wouldn't be affected by Cap going to another timeline to live with Peggy

They ****ed over that rule by having Cap suddenly appear in that same timeline now old and withered.

Like, I loved that Cap got the ending he deserved, but it broke the rules they'd already set so they can break it again.

 

[Z25]

But they can't change the past. Original timeline(OUR timeline) wouldn't be affected by Cap going to another timeline to live with Peggy

This, I think all mcu films will still stay in our original timeline moving forward

 

[slamallama]

Sleep: Thinking they're gonna show Fantastic Four because they have the rights now

Woke: Thinking they're gonna show Fantastic Four because God Emperor Doom and Avengers: Secret Wars

Please yes. Time Runs Out + Secret Wars 2015 is my absolute favorite story arc in all of Marvel, period. That would be so unbelievably epic to see on-screen (though since the entire Marvel multiverse collapsed, it technically already happened in the movies, when you think about it).

 

[osby]

But they can't change the past. Original timeline(OUR timeline) wouldn't be affected by Cap going to another timeline to live with Peggy

Plot twist: They'll include America Chavez in MCU and make her Smash through different timelines whenever they need to break Da Rules.

 

[Z25]

Dr Doom is also pretty possible as the next big bad. He’s got the resources, is Adam favorite, pretty powerful and has fought most of the marvel universe anyway.

Getting task master would be cool to.

 

[Deleted member]

They ****ed over that rule by having Cap suddenly appear in that same timeline now old and withered.

Like, I loved that Cap got the ending he deserved, but it broke the rules they'd already set so they can break it again.

You realize that was Cap coming back to his original timeline by using the wrist thingy, right?

 

[slamallama]

I could be wrong here, but the way I understood the consequences of time travel was that nothing in the past actually changed. We just have now been told that some things which happened in past movies happened because of the time-traveling Avengers. So there has to be some explanation, however shaky, for how Steve was married to Peggy up until the present day.
Plus 2014 Thanos and his whole army got killed, but Infinity War clearly still happened in 2018, right? Otherwise New Asgard would be much bigger, cause Thanos wouldn't have been around to massacre them, and Loki, Vision, Heimdall, and Gamora would still be alive, and Endgame would never have even happened, but it did. So time travel can't effect the timeline, cause any effect it would have has already happened- if that makes any sense? Don't know how you explain Thanos being dead by 2014, but they'll figure something out.

Again, I could be wrong, but that was my understanding of it. I feel like I'll have to watch it several more times before I have a firm grasp of what happened.

 

[92MilesPrower]

Now for another theory of sorts that I’ve started thinking of:

We now have an older Cassie Lang and Harley Keener with the timeskip, along with a Ms. Marvel film or show in the works, along with an injured Bruce Banner that’ll most likely just sit on the sidelines as a “guy in a chair”, and the existence of Miles Morales as mentioned in Homecoming by Aaron Davis, his uncle.

With all of this in mind, who’s to say we can’t have a Young Avengers movie, or what I would personally prefer, Champions, down the line? Specifically with this line-up:

• Stinger (Cassie Lang)
• Iron Lad (Harley Keener)
• Ms. Marvel (Kamala Khan)
• The Totally Awesome Hulk (Amadeus Cho)
• Spider-Man (Miles Morales)

Why these choices? Stinger is probably more likely than Stature imho because of the suit being just like Scott’s and Hope’s, Harley is probably the most likely person to pick up the mantle that Tony had, owning some tech and gaining knowledge from him, Kamala is a given, Amadeus can take the spot that Banner will leave when it’s eventually time that Ruffalo isn’t in the MCU, and Miles is a huge fan favorite that can take Peter’s place years from now.

 

[slamallama]

• Stinger (Cassie Lang)

I thought Cassie was Stature? Or maybe she's been both. I've only read a few comics featuring her. Either way I'm hyped for her to get her own powers.

 

[Z25]

Also it’s kind of funny how marvel themselves and mark ruffalo spoiled the ending to this movie.

The spider man far from home trailer heavily implied iron man died. People defended the the trailer and also argued it didn’t mean much. It it actually did.

On top of that, mark ruffalo said one of the six endings he filmed had cap get married. Something everyone thought little of because it sounded like a joke since he had 6 endings.

Pretty interesting to look back at it now and see the signs.

 

[osby]

Now for another theory of sorts that I’ve started thinking of:

We now have an older Cassie Lang and Harley Keener with the timeskip, along with a Ms. Marvel film or show in the works, along with an injured Bruce Banner that’ll most likely just sit on the sidelines as a “guy in a chair”, and the existence of Miles Morales as mentioned in Homecoming by Aaron Davis, his uncle.

With all of this in mind, who’s to say we can’t have a Young Avengers movie, or what I would personally prefer, Champions, down the line? Specifically with this line-up:

• Stinger (Cassie Lang)
• Iron Lad (Harley Keener)
• Ms. Marvel (Kamala Khan)
• The Totally Awesome Hulk (Amadeus Cho)
• Spider-Man (Miles Morales)

Why these choices? Stinger is probably more likely than Stature imho because of the suit being just like Scott’s and Hope’s, Harley is probably the most likely person to pick up the mantle that Tony had, owning some tech and gaining knowledge from him, Kamala is a given, Amadeus can take the spot that Banner will leave when it’s eventually time that Ruffalo isn’t in the MCU, and Miles is a huge fan favorite that can take Peter’s place years from now.

That's a good cast, but it's Champions, not Young Avengers.

I wonder if they'll make a real Young Avengers movie with Kate Bishop, Hulkling, Wiccan and others but at this point it's more likely they'll just make a team from whoever they have and still call it that, considering we still yet to saw any of them except Cassie.

 

[slamallama]

Hey hey hey, a thing to consider:

When Cap went and returned all the Infinity Stones to their proper times, he would've of course had to return the Soul Stone to Vormir. Can you imagine what would've gone through his head when he saw who its keeper was?

I like to imagine the two sat down and had a nice long buddy-buddy chat about how hilarious their little fight with each other was and how insignificant it feels now. "Hey, remember that time we were both fighting on a non-universal scale? Those were the days, eh?"

 

[Z25]

I wonder if we’ll see defenders form in the actual mcu now. The show and it’s assets are all gone. Making it seem like they want to reboot it.

And the mcu has the existence of hulk, strange, submariner(he hasn’t physically show up yet but his homeland exists on maps and is heavily hinted to show up in phase four).

We can easily see silver surfer now too. And there’s your original lineup.

Then we have characters like ant man and Valkyrie who could join.

Although I think the former will stick with the avengers as well as wasp, and the later will stay on side leading new Asgard unless they need her.

 

[Deleted member]

I could be wrong here, but the way I understood the consequences of time travel was that nothing in the past actually changed. We just have now been told that some things which happened in past movies happened because of the time-traveling Avengers. So there has to be some explanation, however shaky, for how Steve was married to Peggy up until the present day.
Plus 2014 Thanos and his whole army got killed, but Infinity War clearly still happened in 2018, right? Otherwise New Asgard would be much bigger, cause Thanos wouldn't have been around to massacre them, and Loki, Vision, Heimdall, and Gamora would still be alive, and Endgame would never have even happened, but it did. So time travel can't effect the timeline, cause any effect it would have has already happened- if that makes any sense? Don't know how you explain Thanos being dead by 2014, but they'll figure something out.

Again, I could be wrong, but that was my understanding of it. I feel like I'll have to watch it several more times before I have a firm grasp of what happened.

They outright state you can't change the past. You even liked my post where I explained this, dude.
Banner says it just creates a branching timeline, their current timeline remaining unaltered, so now we have:
-Original timeline we watch
-Branched in 2012, Tony has a heart attack and Loki escapes(assumed to have been recaptured by Cap later when he returned the other stones)
-Branched in 2014, Thanos's army disappears suddenly and the Guardians of the Galaxy never formed
-Branched in 2013, no major changes other than a mysterious rabbit stabbing Jane
-Branched in 1970, no major changes other than two Pym Particles being stolen
-Branched in 194?, Steve marries Peggy

 

[staindgrey]

You realize that was Cap coming back to his original timeline by using the wrist thingy, right?

The Time GPS was just a way of coordinating where you're going and communicating with the mechanism that actually brings you back. That's why Carol had to fly the gauntlet into the back of Ant-Man's van and no one could just say "hey I've got a wrist thing hand it to me".

The only "Cap came back to this original timeline" explanation that works is the idea that he used his Pym particles to jump back to the Avengers HQ sometime between when they came back with the Infinity Stones and when Thanos blew the place up, which is a very short amount of time for a now unathletic, hobbled old man to sneak through the facility, get out of the warzone, then come back to that exact bench all for the sake of a dramatic passing of the torch.

They broke their own rules. Which, again, I am absolutely fine with. But it means they can break the rules again for the sake of just doing what they want.

 

[Will]

The Time GPS was just a way of coordinating where you're going and communicating with the mechanism that actually brings you back. That's why Carol had to fly the gauntlet into the back of Ant-Man's van and no one could just say "hey I've got a wrist thing hand it to me".

The only "Cap came back to this original timeline" explanation that works is the idea that he used his Pym particles to jump back to the Avengers HQ sometime between when they came back with the Infinity Stones and when Thanos blew the place up, which is a very short amount of time for a now unathletic, hobbled old man to sneak through the facility, get out of the warzone, then come back to that exact bench all for the sake of a dramatic passing of the torch.

They broke their own rules. Which, again, I am absolutely fine with. But it means they can break the rules again for the sake of just doing what they want.

also are we just gonna ignore loki still being alive in that other timeline

he took the tesseract and did nothing to stop them, cap only returned the 1970 tesseract

 

[92MilesPrower]

That's a good cast, but it's Champions, not Young Avengers.

I wonder if they'll make a real Young Avengers movie with Kate Bishop, Hulkling, Wiccan and others but at this point it's more likely they'll just make a team from whoever they have and still call it that, considering we still yet to saw any of them except Cassie.

I mentioned that I preferred Champions over them being called Young Avengers. Also definitely add Kate to them, or Clint’s daughter, who could have the same role, who I forgot was going to be mentored by Clint in a Disney+ show.

 

[Nutty Sponge]

I'm split, I loved the movie.. but I loved infinity war... god it's so hard for me to decide! I can't ever imagine Chris Evans not playing Cap or RDJ not playing Tony Stark. I'll miss them a lot lmao.

They referenced the Hail Hydra meme, good god this movie's funny.

Whenever I saw this I was so shocked, one of my favorite "Easter eggs" of all time tbh

 

[Deleted member]

The Time GPS was just a way of coordinating where you're going and communicating with the mechanism that actually brings you back. That's why Carol had to fly the gauntlet into the back of Ant-Man's van and no one could just say "hey I've got a wrist thing hand it to me".

The only "Cap came back to this original timeline" explanation that works is the idea that he used his Pym particles to jump back to the Avengers HQ sometime between when they came back with the Infinity Stones and when Thanos blew the place up, which is a very short amount of time for a now unathletic, hobbled old man to sneak through the facility, get out of the warzone, then come back to that exact bench all for the sake of a dramatic passing of the torch.

They broke their own rules. Which, again, I am absolutely fine with. But it means they can break the rules again for the sake of just doing what they want.

No... he came back to the moment Hulk called him back. As we saw when they all come back the first time, it doesn't matter how much time they spend in other timelines, they'll be called back a few moments after the original machine sent them.
Cap only showed up after Hulk called him back, but since Cap only activated the GPS after he lived his whole life, he was old. There's no contradiction of their own rules.

 

[Will]

The Totally Awesome Hulk (Amadeus Cho)

the thing about totally awesome hulk is that cho kind of said yeet to that in june of last year



so if cho does become hulk, i don't see him becoming hulk for a long time. maybe long enough to do the crucial arcs that ruffalo wasn't able to do, because cho did have worldbreaker in his last arc



Worldbreaker Cho was honestly a fantastic villain, despite everyone ****ting on him. I think it does the whole "dark side of Hulk" gimmick really well and closes off Cho's character arc well. And everyone ****ting on Riri Williams at the same time.

Man, it's like Miles is the only person who got away with being the modern replacement for another staple superhero.

 

[staindgrey]

No... he came back to the moment Hulk called him back. As we saw when they all come back the first time, it doesn't matter how much time they spend in other timelines, they'll be called back a few moments after the original machine sent them.
Cap only showed up after Hulk called him back, but since Cap only activated the GPS after he lived his whole life, he was old. There's no contradiction of their own rules.

The amount of time gone isn't the issue. He didn't come through the machine when called back. He was already sitting over there the whole time. Hulk was still fiddling with the machine trying to make it work when Bucky noticed him over on the bench.

He didn't come back through that machine. He either came back through a different machine within this timeline (unlikely but technically possible) or lived his life within this timeline, thus breaking the established rules.

 

[Will]

Hulk was still fiddling with the machine trying to make it work when Bucky noticed him over on the bench.

That's the second thing to note.

Bucky in that entire scene acted like he ****ing knew Steve was gonna do this and how he would do it like he was giving an exposition at a sleepover and he just happened to remember it.

 

[Deleted member]

The amount of time gone isn't the issue. He didn't come through the machine when called back. He was already sitting over there the whole time. Hulk was still fiddling with the machine trying to make it work when Bucky noticed him over on the bench.

He didn't come back through that machine. He either came back through a different machine within this timeline (unlikely but technically possible) or lived his life within this timeline, thus breaking the established rules.

It makes less sense for them to break their own rules though. Cap simply showed up in another spot which, while not oresented as possible beforehand, makes more sense than breaking their own estabilished rules. Especially since that was for Rule of Drama: "oh no Cap didn't come back? Whatever happened to him?" and then he's just there.
Besides, how would old Cap sneak up on them like that if he came walking in? That place isn't exactly open to outsiders, being the Avengers base and all.

 

[Will]

I'm really big on Amadeus Cho Hulk and if he's going to be in the MCU because

1. i had to read all of his comics for a thing once
2. there's some issues

The gimmick of Cho Hulk, from what I've read, is that he's savage Hulk but instead of savage it's a combo of smart and sassy. Basically, he keeps the brain but holds the brawn and is more evil because of that but we don't know that until like 40 issues in.



You can tell how smart he is because he has math equations over his head.

The problem with this is that Professor Hulk already accomplishes that concept. So until Ruffalo dies or retires peacefully, Cho Hulk doesn't bring much new to the table that isn't being Professor Hulk that can actually get into fighting. Because man, he did next to nothing for being a fighter in Endgame.

 

[osby]

the thing about totally awesome hulk is that cho kind of said yeet to that in june of last year

View attachment 214117

so if cho does become hulk, i don't see him becoming hulk for a long time. maybe long enough to do the crucial arcs that ruffalo wasn't able to do, because cho did have worldbreaker in his last arc

View attachment 214118

Worldbreaker Cho was honestly a fantastic villain, despite everyone ****ting on him. I think it does the whole "dark side of Hulk" gimmick really well and closes off Cho's character arc well. And everyone ****ting on Riri Williams at the same time.

Man, it's like Miles is the only person who got away with being the modern replacement for another staple superhero.

I can think up a few who got better receptions, starting with new Ms. Marvel.

 

[Will]

I can think up a few who got better receptions, starting with new Ms. Marvel.

who was Ms. Marvel replacing exactly?

 

[staindgrey]

It makes less sense for them to break their own rules though. Cap simply showed up in another spot which, while not oresented as possible beforehand, makes more sense than breaking their own estabilished rules. Especially since that was for Rule of Drama: "oh no Cap didn't come back? Whatever happened to him?" and then he's just there.
Besides, how would old Cap sneak up on them like that if he came walking in? That place isn't exactly open to outsiders, being the Avengers base and all.

The machine had no spark of light. By all intents and purposes, it didn't work. Hulk himself knew it didn't work. It really isn't a matter of "it worked but he was brought back thirty yards away on a bench".

There's a reason Rick & Morty refuses to do time travel plots: They never make sense. Regardless of the rules you establish, something will fail to make sense because we don't truly know how time travel would work. The writers chose to break their established ruleset for the sake of giving Captain America the sendoff he deserved. I am absolutely fine with that. But they absolutely broke them.

Also the Avengers base didn't even seem to have defenses. Thanos wiped it out without any visible defense to fight against him, and this was assumably fairly recent after the climactic battle, with people still adjusting to a five year gap of being dead and reintegrating into society. It wouldn't be that hard for a trained Avenger to walk a path and sit on a bench. I find that more believable than "he came back through the machine with no visible evidence of it working and appeared on a bench nearby".

 

[Deleted member]

The machine had no spark of light. By all intents and purposes, it didn't work. Hulk himself knew it didn't work. It really isn't a matter of "it worked but he was brought back thirty yards away on a bench".

There's a reason Rick & Morty refuses to do time travel plots: They never make sense. Regardless of the rules you establish, something will fail to make sense because we don't truly know how time travel would work. The writers chose to break their established ruleset for the sake of giving Captain America the sendoff he deserved. I am absolutely fine with that. But they absolutely broke them.

Also the Avengers base didn't even seem to have defenses. Thanos wiped it out without any visible defense to fight against him, and this was assumably fairly recent after the climactic battle, with people still adjusting to a five year gap of being dead and reintegrating into society. It wouldn't be that hard for a trained Avenger to walk a path and sit on a bench. I find that more believable than "he came back through the machine with no visible evidence of it working and appeared on a bench nearby".

But they don't NEED to break their own rules to make that moment work. As I said, the machine didn't work as it did beforehand for Rule of Drama, the time travel rules are still intact.
Cap traveled to an alternate timeline, lived his life, and then came back. You're basing your whole argument because they broke the machine's rules which has no implications towards the actual time travel rules.