Automatic L-Cancelling Discussion

[Narpas_sword]

Please pmdevteam never ever touch/modify lcancel.no missing window frames , no zéro landing lag...
Please just let the lcancel be.

Smash is not another game, smash is smash.
Who are these people that nullifying the value of something Sakurai create?
PM is still in construction, what kind of knowledge/experience do they think they have to consider as definitive their position about lcancelin in the futur metagame?
PMDevTeam, you gave them auto-cancel option. Now they can build a community and organise tournament the way they think the game should be play, isn't it?
Why not doing that? Are they afraid to find theirselves alone? Why do they keep harassing the community with this debate? Trying to have PM made ONLY the way they like?apply their view to everyboby? There is autolcanecl option, please let the community breathe and pmdevteam handle other challenges.

Lcancel forever!

First: PM is not Melee, PM is PM.

Second: This question is a bit silly, when we have PM

Third: Knowledge and experience from players who take the time to set out well formed arguments and experience from many tournaments all over the world.

Fourth: That's what this topic is discussing. The viability of it in tournaments. and as a result, that moves onto the Value of L-Cancelling as a whole.

Last Set: PMDT are doing that, they gave us the option, now it's up to TO's to use it if they like.

 

[masterpad]

First: PM is not Melee, PM is PM.

Second: This question is a bit silly, when we have PM

Third: Knowledge and experience from players who take the time to set out well formed arguments and experience from many tournaments all over the world.

Fourth: That's what this topic is discussing. The viability of it in tournaments. and as a result, that moves onto the Value of L-Cancelling as a whole.

Last Set: PMDT are doing that, they gave us the option, now it's up to TO's to use it if they like.

You can't force me to think l'ile you want.
PM could be everything that i don't Know but there is one thing i will never je wrong about it: PM is melee gameplay.
Yeah, I am bot afraid to say it "BECAUSE MALAY"
Do you ever remembrer what means "PM"?
Yeah . i bring that back too.
I am done arguing with technical element
now I will only stick to the evidence.no more talking there is your long awaited autolcancel option, we are waiting you to deliver us the best competitive match the scene has ever see.
Pmdevteam formely declared that they will never care about the lancel complainers. Now they decide to give this good option but instead of doing something real with it, like a autolcancel community and/or a tournament, or even some video to show us how the game is more interesting with it... YOU ARE ALREADY COMPLAINING AGAIN.there is no problem with lcancel. Lcancel forever

 

[masterpad]

L-cancelling should have been made into something that causes different effects with both pros and cons to consider and also being visual enough to read and react to. This would have made it better and perhaps not something people would just want to automate. I'll keep auto L-cancel on for sure because as it stands, L-cancel is just a pointless chore. Glad the PMDT is listening to all the fans and not just the angry/vocal melee conservatives.

I have never play melee competitively only for the fun with items. I came from brawl to pm but I play a lot of other day and 3d game competitively... And I say:lcancel forever

 

[SpiderMad]

I believe Z-cancelling was in Smash64 because Sakurai wanted people to shield ASAP upon landing rather than get screwed by landing animation. This just happened to also work on aerials, because who would think to test shielding during an aerial?! This seems to indicate it was intended to help casual players not get hung up on the controls.

As a nod to how people liked that and thought it made for some cool gameplay, I think Sakurai added in L-cancelling to Melee and actually put it in the instruction manual. This seems to indicate that he intended for Melee to cater more toward traditional fighting game players, as he has said with regards to Melee in general.

He then removed it entirely in Brawl, which probably indicates he thought it was needless complication of the "simple fighter" he intended Smash to be.

In Sm4sh, there is equipment that does something similar to L-cancelling. This seems to indicate that he appreciates that some players might want a faster game but still thought the button press was a hindrance.

I have no idea what Sakurai actually thinks. I do know he often likes to mix it up just because there's no point in making the same game twice but with different graphics.

Edit: Also what the heck Smashboards why do I have to keep unfollowing this thread every time I post...

http://web.archive.org/web/19991117180837/http://smashbros.com/moves_advattacklanding.html
64 had it in the online official guide or something. When you chose to not perform it, the last couple hits of certain aerials would play out that would otherwise be cancelled (like Jiggly's dair or something).

There wasn't any official L-cancelling related thing in any Melee thing to any knowledge, only for 64 with that thing I posted.

I believe someone will receive the answers from Sakurai eventually

and since this thread hates metaphors/comparisons, here's one.
Why cant we have an auto-exit tumble feature? (Exiting tumble without having to slam the control stick 1 direction in case you didn't know). For arguments sake lets say you can choose to not exit tumble by holding down taunt and a direction to tech or up taunt to not tech the landing. This is also an extra button push that's unnecessary if we want to make the game easier.

Similar thing with Isai dropping lasers on platforms given you can't platform drop out of normal landing and have to walk for at least a frame first. Also similar thing for IASA not being triggered by shield, you instead have to be holding forward to walk for a frame while you hold shield so then it shields. I don't really got much discussion for how'd you go about changing any of them without possibly making the game slightly more wonky (in your proposal a lot so). Auto-exiting tumble would then mean tumble wouldn't exist anymore at all unless you went with the stay in it option right? Also If they didn't have that control stick option to get out you'd be left with DJ/any other action aside from AD (in Melee) to cancel it (to avoid landing during it and having to tech), in which case you could try timing some aerial right before you land and get the autocancel. Same thing goes for IASA in general kind of, though in Melee Specials/AD could not be used through them. Manipulating this stuff (which PM has for parts) affects the aesthetic outlook of the game, since these mechanics were meant to preserve full animations when desired.

For one, you could remove the need to have 2 values for each landing lag, and instead have one. then adjust that to be fair landing lag for that move.

But your reason to add it to specials is to create consistency?
What about tilts then? double the end lag, now you have to press L to get it back to normal too?
Smashes?
Jabs?
Throws?

If consistancy is your reason, surely we'd need to implement L-Cancelling to all sets of moves.

or you know.

Remove it from the one set that currently has it.

I like how your 2nd use of consistent is misspelled. You don't have to have consistency on everything or whatever though I guess you could argue that, unless that's what that guy was stating himself. L-cancelling is the least dumb on Aerials because they're like the centerfold of the game that interacts with the most elements (also Hitlag in Melee doesn't carry the L-cancel timer while it does in PM apparently). When you try to theorize it onto anything grounded there's no timing aspect beyond grounded options having IASA frames already. Then you're left with specials, in which that's a certainly a long discussion. I'm guessing you'd only apply it to ones that put you into special fall (a special that doesn't end when becoming grounded would just be randomly sped up by 2x ..) as in generally recovery ones (and at what point during it, because there's often a couple different states of various landing lag besides the final helpless state). Then whether you would put a fail window on it (which there currently isn't), which you could blow by trying to stage tech. Lots to think about, you could pry end up making recovering even more intense (given L-cancelled landing was normal of what it is now and failed would be 2x longer, that would get weird), now with the drawbacks of normal L-cancelling where newer users are getting screwed over even more. So yeah, idk.
http://smashboards.com/threads/why-isnt-auto-l-canceling-an-option.394938/page-7#post-18863751
http://smashboards.com/threads/why-isnt-auto-l-canceling-an-option.394938/page-5#post-18848897

"It's easy to think you'd want it removed after you've reasoned yourself to think it's dumb, but there's hundreds of factors that made Brawl just a worse game: and some of them are still beyond our understanding. With L-cancelling making Melee more intense in an arcane way."

That's still how I feel. I lean heavily towards Auto L-cancelling since overall L-cancelling is indeed kind of dumb. Only top players pry have more real insight. Mango still has deep insights when it comes to Melee's design, and don't forget he started as a puff main. I don't remember hearing him talk about L-cancelling much though.

 

[4tlas]

Auto-exit tumble would mean that as soon as you are done tumbling + the amount of time it would take to mash because of damage you've taken then you would exit tumble. Same effect, sans mashing.

 

[SpiderMad]

Auto-exit tumble would mean that as soon as you are done tumbling + the amount of time it would take to mash because of damage you've taken then you would exit tumble. Same effect, sans mashing.

No like right now how the game works is this. You go into hitstun after a hit, then if the whateverthehellformuladoo determines it was enough hitstun where you should go into tumble now you go into tumble. Once your in tumble, you can like press Left or Right one time and you're out of it instantly, meaning you'd only have to experience a frame if you timed it right or something.

There's no mashing to break tumble

The whole concept of tumble is entirely different from Hitstun. You can break tumble at anytime once it starts with any action (DJ,Aerial), except in Melee you can't use AD. If you wanted to use AD or wanted to break the tumble because you were gonna touch the ground: you move your control to the Left or Right once.


Edit: I also just want to mention again, the weirdest thing is how L-cancelling doesn't have a fail window. At how realistic of play can you go with the Double shoulder method (given you have both springs in) to bypass a mistake or bad timing making this post mean less
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...actually_want_lcanceling_to_return_to/cjqhlpu
https://youtu.be/iJG-tvT86WU?t=452 Here's the video on it, read the description as he gets some of it wrong

 

[CORY]

That statistic both isn't accurate and is irrelevant to those who play high level competitive video games.

on further inspection, it's only slightly inaccurate (baseline human reaction is about 215 ms [http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime] which is a twitch reaction speed test and [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21681165 the data they have shows a .243-.247ms reaction time amongst their sampling], which translated into frames is 12.9, so 13), and it's actually quite relevant to high level competitive gamers. that baseline number is also an entirely twitch reaction, in the case of the first link, which is much different from a decision based reaction.

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php/topic/2878-millia-mixup-blocker-flash-app/

this is basically a test for reflexes with relevant animations and reactions (sans having to worry about grab, which will technically slow down decision based reactions further). millia is a scary vortex character and her overheads are f16 and f20. he leaves out the f4 option because that's an instant overhead and has to be read (along with requiring meter, meaning it isn't a constant threat throughout the match, only when she acquires at least 25% tension).

there are dedicated players to this franchise that can't react perfectly to her mixup options. seems relevant to competitive gamers. even at 20 frames, some options aren't reactable because humans. even in the topic, it's discussed how her overheads aren't fully reactable in real world situations. if these f16/20 options aren't relevant in the world of competitive guilty gear, then millia would be a terrible character, since she's based entirely on knockdowns into forced blocking of mixups. latest official ac tier list i could find xrd tier list. iirc, her frame data got ported over mostly intact and her shift upwards is from the previous top characters getting stupid stuff toned down (everything about forward exe beast and badland loops, and most of eddie's midscreen corner combos, namely).

in our case, the landing lag has to last at least as long as baseline reaction (13frames) + the oos option (shield grab at 7frames, chosen because it's the most universal option). so, 20 frames.

looking back, i had my conclusion wrong, because i had it reversed (i was typing it on my phone in my car before work, so i didn't think everything through properly, that's entirely on me). the base landing lag would have to be the stated length of 20frames, which would mean 10frames lcancelled.

now, this isn't to say that things less than humanly reactable are unbeatable, but they need to be read in those cases, much like the frc'd f4 instant overhead mentioned in the simulator (which i believe venom also has as a similar option in his kit). much like seeing someone coming in with a short hop and assuming, based on prior match knowledge, this player is going to aerial you and that the nair is entirely shield grabbable on a missed lcancel, but is under the baseline reaction window.

 

[JOE!]

To expand upon Cory's post, lets get into some smash examples. he already noted a reaction time of 12/13 frames, but lets use a bit more forgiving 15 frame average based on this data here. As you can see on the bell curve, a very good reaction time will fall under the 10 frame range, so lets use those two times of 15-10 frames reaction.

Now, lets use this to compare the landing lags of a slow, medium and fast landing aerial. I won't bother with shield stun or whatnot, the scenario being if you can simply react to the lack of Lcancel and also how much time you have to react to the Lcancel anyways.

Ganon's Dair: 31f normal / 15f canceled
If he does not cancel the move, an average person will have 16 frames of time to do something after registering the fact that he didn't cancel, and a really fast player will have a 21 frame window. This is perfectly reasonable to do something about, given its a very laggy aerial (then again it does so much damage on a shield the actual time is lessened,m but w/e).

When Lcanceled, an average player will be neutral with ganon while a fast player will have a +5 time advantage.

Diddy's Dair: 22f normal / 11f canceled
If he doesn't cancel, an average player will have 7 frames advantage while a fast one has 12 frames. By the time the player notices the missed cancel, they have a small window to do something but it is still possible.

If he does cancel, diddy has a 3 frame advantage on an average player, and a fast player has a 1 frame advantage.

Sheik's Bair: 16f normal / 8f canceled
If she doesn't cancel, an average player has 1 frame of advantage while a fast one has 6 frames. By the time a player notices that she missed the cancel, they have a minute window to punish that even a shield grab (7 frames) technically couldn't punish.

If she cancels, she will have a 7-2 frame advantage over the reacting player.


So, it seems that really slow moves are perfectly able to be reacted to on a miss. Medium lag moves are possible to react to if you are really on point, but there is little wiggle room, and fast moves are not really able to be reliably reacted to anyways. As Cory stated, it seems to be more a case of prediction being better when they miss due to say, the difference in advantage Sheik has on missing an lcancel vs landing one.

 

[4tlas]

No like right now how the game works is this. You go into hitstun after a hit, then if the whateverthehellformuladoo determines it was enough hitstun where you should go into tumble now you go into tumble. Once your in tumble, you can like press Left or Right one time and you're out of it instantly, meaning you'd only have to experience a frame if you timed it right or something.

There's no mashing to break tumble

The whole concept of tumble is entirely different from Hitstun. You can break tumble at anytime once it starts with any action (DJ,Aerial), except in Melee you can't use AD. If you wanted to use AD or wanted to break the tumble because you were gonna touch the ground: you move your control to the Left or Right once.

Sometimes I can't break tumble unless I do it a lot. Are you sure you're correct?

 

[SpiderMad]

Sometimes I can't break tumble unless I do it a lot. Are you sure you're correct?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03qCJ_Ikbho&index=4&list=PL78f_GiZ6WUraNbxO2Zp93y-ejLRNWXVb

 

[4tlas]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03qCJ_Ikbho&index=4&list=PL78f_GiZ6WUraNbxO2Zp93y-ejLRNWXVb

AH so what I've been doing is pressing it too early, during the hitstun part. This explains so much. Its also really stupid. So yeah, I would say this should be automated as well.

 

[Narpas_sword]

AH so what I've been doing is pressing it too early, during the hitstun part. This explains so much. Its also really stupid. So yeah, I would say this should be automated as well.

That would remove teching as an option though.

 

[SpiderMad]

AH so what I've been doing is pressing it too early, during the hitstun part. This explains so much. Its also really stupid. So yeah, I would say this should be automated as well.

That's saying to rid the Tumble animation completely which I went over. I think Tumble still allows AD in PM anyways; so basically you're trying to make the game look worse for no reason whatsoever animation-wise since Tumble doesn't restrict any option at all it's basically just a different fall animation (with the one thing it did restrict being AD, in Melee, unless you pressed Left or Right once.. or DJ'd first or anything) @Kadano Is Tumble stupid yay or nay?

 

[4tlas]

That would remove teching as an option though.

Ah yes I forgot about that. I'm tired.

That's saying to rid the Tumble animation completely which I went over. I think Tumble still allows AD in PM anyways; so basically you're trying to make the game look worse for no reason whatsoever animation-wise since Tumble doesn't restrict any option at all it's basically just a different fall animation (with the one thing it did restrict being AD, in Melee, unless you pressed Left or Right once.. or DJ'd first or anything) @Kadano Is Tumble stupid yay or nay?

I forgot about teching out of tumble, so I've changed my mind. However, the fact that it doesn't really restrict anything is exactly why it isn't a useful decision point. You also can't airdodge out of tumble in PM without doing the same thing as in Melee, which is really just a chore. But teching out of tumble is a good reason to keep it.

I'm so tired.

 

[F. Blue]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03qCJ_Ikbho&index=4&list=PL78f_GiZ6WUraNbxO2Zp93y-ejLRNWXVb

The part near the end "DamageFlyTop¹ can be jump buffered, but DamageFlyRoll² cannot" seems needlessly complex, possibly an oversight. If we're looking to improve on Melee's mechanics, I nominate unifying all tumble animations to allow jump buffering.

 

[kinje]

so you're saying that having auto-l-canceling on would make these things overpowered because players could do them easily, even though it's been said multiple times in this thread and others that any notable player basically doesn't miss l-cancels anyway

so are you just saying that these characters are overpowered, or

That's wrong. Notable players miss l-cancels quite often. If you can, try to look at the "l-cancel %" stat on the end screen of high level games.
However, what MLC does is cause them not to rely on those strings so much that they do them frequently enough that they're practically guaranteed to miss the l-cancel and get punished.

To expand upon Cory's post, lets get into some smash examples. he already noted a reaction time of 12/13 frames, but lets use a bit more forgiving 15 frame average based on this data here. As you can see on the bell curve, a very good reaction time will fall under the 10 frame range, so lets use those two times of 15-10 frames reaction.

Now, lets use this to compare the landing lags of a slow, medium and fast landing aerial. I won't bother with shield stun or whatnot, the scenario being if you can simply react to the lack of Lcancel and also how much time you have to react to the Lcancel anyways.
Ganon's Dair: 31f normal / 15f canceled
If he does not cancel the move, an average person will have 16 frames of time to do something after registering the fact that he didn't cancel, and a really fast player will have a 21 frame window. This is perfectly reasonable to do something about, given its a very laggy aerial (then again it does so much damage on a shield the actual time is lessened,m but w/e).

When Lcanceled, an average player will be neutral with ganon while a fast player will have a +5 time advantage.

Diddy's Dair: 22f normal / 11f canceled
If he doesn't cancel, an average player will have 7 frames advantage while a fast one has 12 frames. By the time the player notices the missed cancel, they have a small window to do something but it is still possible.

If he does cancel, diddy has a 3 frame advantage on an average player, and a fast player has a 1 frame advantage.

Sheik's Bair: 16f normal / 8f canceled
If she doesn't cancel, an average player has 1 frame of advantage while a fast one has 6 frames. By the time a player notices that she missed the cancel, they have a minute window to punish that even a shield grab (7 frames) technically couldn't punish.

If she cancels, she will have a 7-2 frame advantage over the reacting player.


So, it seems that really slow moves are perfectly able to be reacted to on a miss. Medium lag moves are possible to react to if you are really on point, but there is little wiggle room, and fast moves are not really able to be reliably reacted to anyways. As Cory stated, it seems to be more a case of prediction being better when they miss due to say, the difference in advantage Sheik has on missing an lcancel vs landing one.

Study doesn't take into account display and device latency, and you should only be using those placed in the 90th percentile or higher to get an accurate judge of the reaction times that are relevant.

 

[Draco_The]

Use the edit button.

 

[Bleck]

That's wrong. Notable players miss l-cancels quite often. If you can, try to look at the "l-cancel %" stat on the end screen of high level games.

as has been stated innumerable times, the l-cancel % stat isn't an entirely accurate indicator of how many times people don't l-cancel by mistake

 

[Kurri ★]

You can't force me to think l'ile you want.
PM could be everything that i don't Know but there is one thing i will never je wrong about it: PM is melee gameplay.
Yeah, I am bot afraid to say it "BECAUSE MALAY"
Do you ever remembrer what means "PM"?
Yeah . i bring that back too.
I am done arguing with technical element
now I will only stick to the evidence.no more talking there is your long awaited autolcancel option, we are waiting you to deliver us the best competitive match the scene has ever see.
Pmdevteam formely declared that they will never care about the lancel complainers. Now they decide to give this good option but instead of doing something real with it, like a autolcancel community and/or a tournament, or even some video to show us how the game is more interesting with it... YOU ARE ALREADY COMPLAINING AGAIN.there is no problem with lcancel. Lcancel forever

Yo buddy...You ever contributed anything thoughtful and coherent before?

 

[kinje]

as has been stated innumerable times, the l-cancel % stat isn't an entirely accurate indicator of how many times people don't l-cancel by mistake

lol, stating it innumerable times doesn't make it factual info or mean it matters. Top players miss l-cancels. This is something you can see if you watch any match.

For example, since this is a match I've kinda memorized as a D3 main, I'll show you this match: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkl32dxE0vg
In it, you can see that every time blake misses the l-cancel on a safely spaced ff nair, he gets punished for it by wes, who turns around and grabs or attacks on reaction. Westballz, while visibly missing his l-cancels very rarely, misses them a few times in the match and either drops the pressure because of it or gets punished by ripple, who is counting on that missed l-cancel or misspace, as it becomes likely after a couple dozen repeats of the same aerials on shield. Sometime after the 2:30 mark, westballz doesn't wait to react, and tries to read a missed l-cancel on ripple's ff nair for a harder punish. Ripple successfully l-cancels, and gets the grab to punish, converting it into a stock. Also towards the end of the first game, wes misses another l-cancel because of ripple's shield tilt (on a bair, I think) and can't get a shine out to keep the pressure on at the ledge because of it.
If you keep watching, you'll only see more and more of them.

You can't deny that top players miss l-cancels or deny that top players can't bank on or react to missed l-cancels.

 

[masterpad]

Yo buddy...You ever contributed anything thoughtful and coherent before?

Contribution for what purpose? The autoLcancel option is avalaible. There is no need to debate anymore . I challenge you to make something valuable with that option. I am waiting for autolcancel tournament hype, I am waiting for your videos. You have harassed many people with you dogma now make something of it. I am waiting for the AutoLcancel community


This topic is far from the first debating about lcancel with people not understanding each other.... I have argue so many times in so many ways but don't worry about it just prove me wrong now that you have something that in your opinion will make a better PM: autoLcancel option.

 

[PootisKonga]

You can't deny that top players[...] can't bank on or react to missed l-cancels.

See, here lies the problem: Why can they bank on missed L-Cancels?

Punishing a missed L-Cancel is not outsmarting nor outperforming your opponent except in the most niche cases possible where the L-Cancel can likely still be made anyway. You are simply capitalizing on a mistake that should never be made, and currently MALC exists solely to create mistakes that should never be made.

Edit:

You have harassed many people with you dogma

The ones who are debating this subject rationally multiple times without referring to past incarnations of the series as reasons for or against are the ones spouting dogma. Sure, why not

 

[Narpas_sword]

lol, stating it innumerable times doesn't make it factual info or mean it matters. Top players miss l-cancels. This is something you can see if you watch any match.

For example, since this is a match I've kinda memorized as a D3 main, I'll show you this match: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkl32dxE0vg
In it, you can see that every time blake misses the l-cancel on a safely spaced ff nair, he gets punished for it by wes, who turns around and grabs or attacks on reaction. Westballz, while visibly missing his l-cancels very rarely, misses them a few times in the match and either drops the pressure because of it or gets punished by ripple, who is counting on that missed l-cancel or misspace, as it becomes likely after a couple dozen repeats of the same aerials on shield. Sometime after the 2:30 mark, westballz doesn't wait to react, and tries to read a missed l-cancel on ripple's ff nair for a harder punish. Ripple successfully l-cancels, and gets the grab to punish, converting it into a stock. Also towards the end of the first game, wes misses another l-cancel because of ripple's shield tilt (on a bair, I think) and can't get a shine out to keep the pressure on at the ledge because of it.
If you keep watching, you'll only see more and more of them.

You can't deny that top players miss l-cancels or deny that top players can't bank on or react to missed l-cancels.

Fair enough.
I'll tell you what else I saw too:

Successful L-Cancels being punished.

I think the thing to take away from this is that, yes, even though you see punishes from missed L cancels, it's not necessarily the missing that causes it.

There are many other factors involved when throwing out an aerial. Spacing is probably the most important.

 

[kinje]

Fair enough.
I'll tell you what else I saw too:

Successful L-Cancels being punished.

I think the thing to take away from this is that, yes, even though you see punishes from missed L cancels, it's not necessarily the missing that causes it.

There are many other factors involved when throwing out an aerial. Spacing is probably the most important.

Yeah, I won't deny that. Wes ultimately ended up losing the first game because he kept throwing out a misspaced l-canceled bair he thought was safe on ripple's shield after ripple realized he could grab it.

But my point still stands.
Whether or not it's significant enough that we should keep it or not remains to be seen, as TOs and players experiment with the ALC, but my opinion at the moment is that it's still important.

 

[Narpas_sword]

As you say, it remains to be seen. We can theorise to the nth page, but till we play some tournies and see if results change, we won't have concrete proof either way.

Personally I like it on. Not because I miss my L-Cancels and want the boost, but because I don't want to form bad habits against someone who misses theirs, only to find when I vs someone else who plays the same character, my options I learned no longer work.

 

[masterpad]

See, here lies the problem: Why can they bank on missed L-Cancels?

Punishing a missed L-Cancel is not outsmarting nor outperforming your opponent except in the most niche cases possible where the L-Cancel can likely still be made anyway. You are simply capitalizing on a mistake that should never be made, and currently MALC exists solely to create mistakes that should never be made.

Edit:


The ones who are debating this subject rationally multiple times without referring to past incarnations of the series as reasons for or against are the ones spouting dogma. Sure, why not

Ironic?!good! Have fun!
All that is obvious now is: the autoLcancel option is available and you are still arguing. This is not going anywhere because all the noLcancel religion whants is just make all pm players to play the way they want.
Lcancel:
Is an input that ask for skill and it point is a reward as an offensive or a defensive advantage depending on the situation, no choice, no strategy and it's fine this way. Like in tons of many other fighting games. Stop all the dogma about "lcancel is always the right choice" "lcancel is arbitrary" ...
No, lcancel is something common in modern 2D fighting games in general, ..maybe not for areal attacks. Nintendo could introduction lcancel on hit-lag or any other lag , as soon as they make a reward for performing it , it will be so normal!

 

[Narpas_sword]

Ironic?!good! Have fun!
All that is obvious now is: the autoLcancel option is available and you are still arguing. This is not going anywhere because all the noLcancel religion whants is just make all pm players to play the way they want.
Lcancel:
Is an input that ask for skill and it point is the reward of an offensive or a defensive advantage depending on the situation, no choice, no strategy and it's fine this way. Like in tons of many other fighting games. Stop all the dogma about "lcancel is always the right choice" "lcancel is arbitrary" ...
No, lcancel is something common in modern 2D fighting games in general, ..maybe not for areal attacks. Nintendo could introduction lcancel on hit-lag or any other lag , as soon as they make a reward for performing it , it will be so normal!

Bro, we aren't arguing, it's a discussion. for the most part it's a fairly calm conversation between members. Only occasionally it's getting flamy, and even then it has been quick to dampen. this has probably been one of the most constructive L-Cancel topics yet.

It's certainly not comparable to a religion either. We are trying to discuss proof, not just wave out an Auto L-Cancel banner and block our ears yelling 'LALALALALALA'

There are even posts made By ALC posters with likes from MLC supporters and vice versa. If someone makes a good point and discusses it with details and backs it up with examples, the conversation moves forward.

You say it's an input that asks for skill, yet we all know it can be mashed during your aerial to succeed, there is no fail window.

You also then say that L-Cancel is common in modern 2d fighting games.
Which games?

The last fighting game I remember having something exactly like MLC is melee.
Every other fighting game I've played has a set landing lad with no button to modify it.
Any game that incorporates an LC like mechanism has it as an option, where not using it can be good, and using it can be good. or something that requires 'meter' to use.

So what are these games?

 

[Kurri ★]

Ironic?!good! Have fun!
All that is obvious now is: the autoLcancel option is available and you are still arguing. This is not going anywhere because all the noLcancel religion whants is just make all pm players to play the way they want.
Lcancel:
Is an input that ask for skill and it point is a reward as an offensive or a defensive advantage depending on the situation, no choice, no strategy and it's fine this way. Like in tons of many other fighting games. Stop all the dogma about "lcancel is always the right choice" "lcancel is arbitrary" ...
No, lcancel is something common in modern 2D fighting games in general, ..maybe not for areal attacks. Nintendo could introduction lcancel on hit-lag or any other lag , as soon as they make a reward for performing it , it will be so normal!

It's not going anywhere because you're making an ass out of yourself.

 

[Bleck]

lol, stating it innumerable times doesn't make it factual

it is factual

You can't deny that top players miss l-cancels or deny that top players can't bank on or react to missed l-cancels.

yes I can, watch

banking on missed l-cancels is risky because of how rarely people miss l-cancels

reacting to a missed l-cancel is almost always literally physically impossible

 

[kinje]

it is factual



yes I can, watch

banking on missed l-cancels is risky because of how rarely people miss l-cancels

reacting to a missed l-cancel is almost always literally physically impossible

I mean, you I guess you can, but you're wrong. I've gone over their methods and none of those studies are guaranteed to be well-done (they are crowd-sourced and don't account for several major sources of error) or peer-reviewed (with the exception of the NIH study, whose actual data is behind a paywall but based on abstract is using a sample of boxers, who are 1, not gamers, and 2, recieve noticably more punches to the skull than the average person, thus negatively affecting cognitive abilities such as reaction time) , and you're most certainly using all of them incorrectly (not taking into account the fact that top level player's reaction times are all going to be in the 90th percentile or higher).

For the record, in the humanbenchmark.com tests, with the exception of a freak .436, which I used as a getting used to the system throwaway, I clocked an average of .134 for 5 tests, which is closer to 8 frames than anything else, and it can be assumed that there were split-second system delay errors and that my reaction time isn't the very best in the smash community.

Also, here's a chart of the top times from humanbenchmark.com's survey:

Rank Username Tries Time
1 Petr Jugáš 5 100ms
2 AR 11 still too hard 6 102ms
3 iFound 5 118ms
4 Mehmet Kara 5 120ms
5 Prem Kumar 5 122ms
6 Noodle-Naut 5 131ms
7 iM_LeockeR 6 134ms
8 RetsnoM 5 141ms
9 treav0r 5 147ms
10 _remilia 5 148ms


The top ranked person can react within exactly 6 frames.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I mean, you I guess you can, but you're wrong. I've gone over their methods and none of those studies are guaranteed to be well-done (they are crowd-sourced and don't account for several major sources of error) or peer-reviewed (with the exception of the NIH study, whose actual data is behind a paywall but based on abstract is using a sample of boxers, who are 1, not gamers, and 2, recieve noticably more punches to the skull than the average person, thus negatively affecting cognitive abilities such as reaction time) , and you're most certainly using all of them incorrectly (not taking into account the fact that top level player's reaction times are all going to be in the 90th percentile or higher).

For the record, in the humanbenchmark.com tests, with the exception of a freak .436, which I used as a getting used to the system throwaway, I clocked an average of .134 for 5 tests, which is closer to 8 frames than anything else, and it can be assumed that there were split-second system delay errors and that my reaction time isn't the very best in the smash community.

Also, here's a chart of the top times from humanbenchmark.com's survey:

Rank Username Tries Time
1 Petr Jugáš 5 100ms
2 AR 11 still too hard 6 102ms
3 iFound 5 118ms
4 Mehmet Kara 5 120ms
5 Prem Kumar 5 122ms
6 Noodle-Naut 5 131ms
7 iM_LeockeR 6 134ms
8 RetsnoM 5 141ms
9 treav0r 5 147ms
10 _remilia 5 148ms


The top ranked person can react within exactly 6 frames.

I haven't done much looking into reaction time science.
but isn't the 'humanbenckmark' test twitch reaction, not decision based?

Wouldn't reacting to a missed LC be a decision based reaction?

i guess if your options were 'continue hold shield' or 'do OOS' then it could be considered twitch.
but usually there are more options than that.

I'm not sure though.
Mind explaining?

 

[Bleck]

see above post; twitch reaction times aren't really relevant to reaction times when you factor in decision-making and information input (i.e pressing a button when a thing tells you to is always going to be faster than pressing a specific button when thing tells you something)

 

[kinje]

I haven't done much looking into reaction time science.
but isn't the 'humanbenckmark' test twitch reaction, not decision based?

Wouldn't reacting to a missed LC be a decision based reaction?

i guess if your options were 'continue hold shield' or 'do OOS' then it could be considered twitch.
but usually there are more options than that.

I'm not sure though.
Mind explaining?

I'm not super into the pseudo-science of this specific difference, either, but since both are pressing a button in response to a "flash", I don't see how the two would be dramatically different. The way I generally look at it is, you pick your option beforehand, once they throw out the aerial, which is to shield or cc, and then wait for the aerial to land. If you shield, then you wait, and if they misspace or there's no l-cancel flash, that's your green light, then you press a to shieldgrab or jump+your pre-decided oos option. Otherwise, you try to read the next oncoming attack and tilt your shield accordingly in the time given.

I've never found it impossibly difficult to punish things that way, and I have a difficult time imagining most others have a very difficult time doing it.
So you'll forgive me if I don't find this "decision-based reaction" to be particularly convincing, as, once you've shielded, reacting and picking options really is as simple as act OOS if you can, otherwise hold shield.

 

[GP&B]

If someone spaces an aerial on your shield such that you are in range to grab/attack them OoS, you'll do this regardless of LC or not. You are not going to make a decision based on whether an MLC was performed or not as the twitch reaction window for that is way to small and you'd be wasting your time.

 

[kinje]

see above post; twitch reaction times aren't really relevant to reaction times when you factor in decision-making and information input (i.e pressing a button when a thing tells you to is always going to be faster than pressing a specific button when thing tells you something)

It sounds to me like you just need to pick your options to cover the missed l-cancel before the attack is landing, to make it a "twitch reaction" once the actual attack lands and you need to react to the l-cancel.
That's what I've always done.

If someone spaces an aerial on your shield such that you are in range to grab/attack them OoS, you'll do this regardless of LC or not. You are not going to make a decision based on whether an MLC was performed or not as the twitch reaction window for that is way to small and you'd be wasting your time.

No, that's not true. Because many characters have shield-positive l-canceled aerials, I won't just grab OOS if they succeed in l-canceling, because doing so gets me punished if they don't just shield after their aerial. And as I just explained, the "twitch reaction" window is not too short, as apparently, for me, it's about 8 frames, so, for top players, it's probably more around 7.

 

[Bleck]

yeah that's uh that's called prediction

 

[Kurri ★]

It sounds to me like you just need to pick your options to cover the missed l-cancel before the attack is landing, to make it a "twitch reaction" once the actual attack lands and you need to react to the l-cancel.
That's what I've always done.

What you've always done was stupid... I should know /s

If you're choosing an option before they throw something out, doesn't that mean it's not on reaction?

edit: I forgot to type done

 

[kinje]

yeah that's uh that's called prediction

No, because I'm picking two options beforehand, and I commit to one or the other on reaction.

What you've always was stupid... I should know /s

If you're choosing an option before they throw something out, doesn't that mean it's not on reaction?

Choosing an option isn't the same as committing to said option.

 

[Bleck]

facepalm.jpeg

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Don't mind me, just quoting myself here.

On the point of Aerials and Landing, you seem to ignore other defensive options and advantages, like Spot Dodging, Rolling, Wave Dashing away, or just Anti-Airing/Contesting the aerial with your own. As previously mentioned, movement options is what helps gives this game depth.

Relevant.