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How does auto [defense option] here really help with that interaction vs auto l cancel? It still will lose to appropriate spacing/frame trap options in the same sense that timed ones will.
Or you could realize that we're having a discussion and not actually forcing anything on anyone.
Uh, yeah I think it is. I have said it before and I'll say it again, Sakurai's control scheme and design goals CLEARLY are aiming for a fighter that is not about ridiculous inputs for no reason. L-cancelling is the epitome of ridiculous inputs for no reason. Advanced tech is emergent, taking all of the simple inputs and combining them in crazy ways, and for a reason.
My reasoning is that balancing issues you assume are existent, are already here ALC or not. Since I don't believe there would be a major change of game play between the two.
Honestly I think increasing buffer windows would be great sometimes, but its also annoying other times. I hate DIing for G&W's throws and then having it buffer a roll so I get DACUS'd.
You see, MvC is an inherently broken mess not just because of all the combos, but because it has the limited movement of traditionals and there's no depth to countering combos. This is why despite Capcom's best attempts, there's only like four characters ever used in top-level play.
I'll x-post what I said in another thread about that:
Skill-reward ratio is a core component of whether something is considered balanced or not. The core of balance is to make sure that the more skilled player comes out on top. In most fighters, this is achieved by making top-level play of each character balanced, but this is due to the limitations of traditional fighters.
kinje
: I'm pretty sure this is what you want to get at, but you can't really find the words.
I'm going to ignore the fact that you definitely don't watch Marvel based on this narrow assumption about the game's meta, because that's not worth my time to rant about.You see, MvC is an inherently broken mess not just because of all the combos, but because it has the limited movement of traditionals and there's no depth to countering combos. This is why despite Capcom's best attempts, there's only like four characters ever used in top-level play.
And even then, the combos in Melee are nowhere near as broken as they are in MvC, and I take skill level into account due to brokenness. Did you know that casual MvC players are expected to take off like 50% of health in one combo?
You've presented a black/white fallacy and even then you look at factors that are in PM but not in traditionals.
I'll x-post what I said in another thread about that:
Skill-reward ratio is a core component of whether something is considered balanced or not. The core of balance is to make sure that the more skilled player comes out on top. In most fighters, this is achieved by making top-level play of each character balanced, but this is due to the limitations of traditional fighters.
In Melee on the other hand, it's different. It manages to have an even higher skill cap than traditionals because it lacks much of the limitations AND it keeps the skill-reward ratio very even. Sure, assuming that every character has 20XX-level play, Fox would come out on top, but that in itself is dampened by the difficulty that keeps Fox balanced.
@
There are plenty of instances where Spacies or x character use an aerial too high, or get weak hit of aerial instead of strong hit and are vulnerable. Auto shield grab would be a fair thing to grant imo, since you're giving the attacker free l cancel basically. If he can't perform the pressure/traps optimally, and he's essentially being helped, why not help defenders for when he messes up? Etc
Note: "stated" not "shown"
Apart from certain jank animations that look almost as if they were l-canceled regardless of l-cancel or not, it's pretty easy to see the noticeable landing animations where there would just be a near-instant return to neutral position if they had l-canceled it. Also, it's a bad idea anyways to ignore the possibility that your opponent will screw up. Everyone makes mistakes, and it's part of your job as a player to recognize when they do and punish them. Heck, it's even part of your job to anticipate mistakes like missed techs and sweet-spots if they show a lack of technical prowess or preparedness to deal with certain situations.
But of course! My point was more that in Melee, the game given to us straight from the god Sakurai himself, in which L-cancelling has proven to be a wondrous technique full of depth, it would be even harder to react to a missed L-cancel and punish it, because you would have to wait for at least several frames to see that the L-cancel hadn't occurred, and thus even fewer of those L-cancels, for which being punished is clearly a critical part of Melee's genius gameplay, will be punished, due to reaction-time alone.
Yes, you are right. Many games are balanced with difficulty of execution in mind. But what game designers also do, if they want to make a well designed game, is to make sure that the reward is increased proportionally to a difficulty increase. If difficulty is increased without much of a beneficial reward or if it's increase purely for the sake of difficulty, you are creating a game that devalues the player experience by forcing the player to work hard for relatively no reward or an inefficient reward, which is by definition bad game design. I have argued that MLC falls under this category of bad game design. I would still like to see a counter-argument to this point.
Once again, it appears as if you are using the argument that there is inherent value in L-canceling because of one's ability to fail at its execution (please correct me if I am wrong). When you have to use instances of NOT using a mechanic correctly to show why said mechanic has inherent value/depth, then it really brings into question whether that mechanic actually has depth or not. I've already addressed my issues with this argument. I think it would be worthwhile if this was addressed because it seems to be a core part of your argument.
I swear this better be a jokeok.
Why are taunts in the game? They don't add anything to its depth.
Why aren't we playing the game in debug mode, only seeing the hurt- and hitboxes? Graphics don't add anything to its depth.
Why does the feeling of your character being an extension of yourself feel so good? It doesn't add anything to the game.
bye.
Well I gotta move my stick a certain way to do tilts, so what's your point?
I see you're one of those guys who thinks the only combos in fighters are the ones they teach you in challenge mode. It's not as free as Smash, but you still have leniency in what you can do in traditional fighters. As for counterplay, I'm certain you're talking about DI. Depending on the game, it may or may not be needed. Street Fighter combos are generally not long, so there isn't much of a need, whereas GGXrd combos can span 20+ hits, so they have burst. But you also have things like ukemi, which is basically a tech roll, which can mess up combos.
You do mix them up...
This thread is obviously proving you wrong so...
Probably because they may not hate traditional fighters, or they know they'll get chewed out if they do say so.
There really should be a disclaimer that says "Read the entire thread before posting." What you've said, as already been said countless times and has been torn apart, bit by bit. Nothing new is being said here at all.
Interesting comparison.
Lately I've been playing with more and more competitive opponents, and they check their L-cancel percentages. They always get in the 90%s, feel disappointed when its in the 70-80%s, and brag when its 100%. I point out that ledge-cancels (and maybe autocancels?) are part of the denominator, so sometimes they get more pleased with their performance. Then they notice mine at 0% and cry since I still compete with them just fine.
