Australian Competitive Brawl Ruleset Discussion *Update: 15/05/08* *Spoilers*

[Sloth]

I know, its heaps of fun doing that. I love drunk smash! And sure Aussie rules don't have to follow the rest, but I reckon in the end it will be very very close or the same. We shouldn't TRY to make it unique, we should just do what best suits the majority of players.

I however do like the suggestion that if both players agree on a level, they should be able to play it. It would of made sense to have that in melee as both people know exactly what exploits they are getting into.

 

[Scrubs]

And sure Aussie rules don't have to follow the rest, but I reckon in the end it will be very very close or the same. We shouldn't TRY to make it unique, we should just do what best suits the majority of players.

Very good point.

We shouldn't / aren't trying to make the rule set unique just for the sake of it.

When I said that Australia has a chance to determine how we play this game, I never meant that we should make up our own rules just to be different.

I have no doubt that the rule set we eventually use at tourney's will be very similar if not the same as the rest of the competitive community.

I just think we should be proactive and make some decisions for ourselves.

Personally I want to see more stages being used.

 

[Mic_128]

any item could mean edge guarding capabilities, characters without any range are screwed, it just adds more randomness to the game.

You could also say that this then gives some characters range, and going by Melee, some characters would be "buffed" with items, for example Mewtwo. However most of the higher tiered characters, itens wouldn't be that great. Marth with a laser gun? There goes his Fsmash and Fair, the 2 most used moves of his. Even marth with a beamsword is "nerfing" him. To me, anything that could help balance the game is a plus.

on the other side of that, pit pretty much is metaknight with a gun. the game would completely change, it would no longer be about reading just a persons game, it would be reading possible games that could take place if an item was brought in, explosions in the face aren't fun either, one person getting a good poke ball the other mew or something.

Again, all items that would cause facial explosions (lol) would be turned off, and so would pokeballs.

Spoiler

Lati@s for example is really strong. So is Gorudon (i imagine)

I am NOT arguing for all items to be on, and I wish people would stop using those items as examples.

But yes, suddenly Pika with a beamsword has some new tactics to worry about. But So does Zelda turning into Sheik, Pokemon Trainer and even Peach if she pulls a stichface or a bob-omb. Heck, even being a stock down changes the way you play. You just need to adapt.

When we get Brawl and start having tournaments, I sincerly hope that we would give anything that could be argued to be okay a chance. Have a few "tournies" with as much on as posible and remove things if needed. I'd be very disapointed if we turned into the "ban anything that we can" mindset that the Brawl rooms stupidly are stuck in.

 

[Sloth]

I don't want to auto ban everything from the start. But I think we need to develop at least some form of guide-lines to help work things out.
Jaz has a vaild point that figuring out items may become very diffuclt in also balancing the raw abilities of the characters.

However on the other spectrum, there is an off chance that all that chaos could create order and balance and enchance the skill potentional found in smash. Rather rather small chance imo. But chance none-the-less as our knowledge of brawl is limited.

I can see items being a very long evolving process. Like, we add some, see some as unbalanced, see some as breaking certain characters, taking more out, adding more in etc.. Personally I want to bi-pass it all like a stupid person stuck in the same mindframe and get on with just learning how to play the characters well. Each to their own of course, which is why a lot of input is good.

I just hope people don't want items in because they add 'Fun'.

 

[ComboTurtle]

nsw = items off

 

[Sirias]

Items for friendlies. Kthxbai.
Friendlies = no rules. Kgo.

We can be unique but let's not be ********.
As both Bryce (Sloth) and Jaz (... Jaz XD) said, omg items = more luck and less skill.
Capsules would spawn any of the selected items given, that's luck in there. D: But then what if there're items that're good for characters but also bad for other characters, and that character got the bad item? ... Then you'd just chuck it away. Pointless, much.
Anyway, if an item did spawn, it would probably be a race to get it first. Sorta like a Smash Ball thing, whatever it's called. Final Smash item.

Gogo mind-games.

But to what Jaz said, I think Pokeballs would be taken out no matter what anyway. <_<;; There could be 'some' items that MIGHT actually make it more competitive. Doubtful, I don't know the items. But we shouldn't be using items that're OBVIOUSLY broken as examples. Kthx.

And Neeso lol, contradictory. I'm 100% against banning. But if people use Fox on Temple and Fox Shoot, ban Fox. :D
Can't do anything about stages and people. If people choose that stage and have an gay advantage, don't have the stage, unless, for some reason, we decide to make it so certain stages have certain bans.
E.G - Temple = No Fox. Or something weird like that.
Would be too complicated, though, maybe. And would be sorta dumb if people use Fox and no one else.

I think... in the long run...
Our 'unique ruleset' won't be very different to any other one.
Really we're just limiting what every other place will be taking out as well.
The only differences might be stages, stock, time... mm... We could be weird and, once we get a power ranking thing going (for each state) we could have the person that's on a higher position have a handicap. :D But that would only really work for Australian Only tournaments.

That being said, why don't we have an Australian Only Ruleset.
... Although then how would we be able to change it if someone else came? Or we went to another place? ... I guess that might be too difficult.

Edit;

SIGH! There was another page and I missed it. =/ So I think everything I just said was already said. Guh.

Sigh. Everything I said was said, pretty much.
Sigh... =/

Edit2;

LolMunchy, I beat you. <3 1 minute in front!

 

[Munchy.]

The way I see it, item's where added to make game play a little more interesting. I mean sure there are some that might over power the game and characters completely, but not taking the time to test them and see whats good and whats not could potentially take away some key factors of the game.

Items may become a key factor in game play, The randomness of it is a factor that should be put into consideration, but if you are good at the game, you will find ways around it and learn to adapt. But I can see the point on having them off as well.

In the long run it really comes down to if you want to try something new, and not stay with the way the Melee was, or stay with the way things where and go from there.

Edit. **** you Kas, you did 2 =P

 

[Darkwing SykeDuk]

ZOMG sif steal my avatar new*** wtfzomgzomgzomg!??!!?!?!?!?

 

[Atticus]

I don't think items in tournaments are a good idea. In the past I've found that items just don't have lasting appeal beyond a gimmick. Whatever dimension of gameplay they might've added, pure combat was simply more fun to me in both SSB and SSBM. The negative aspects of enabling them are well established in how random and unfair items can be, and this would remain true in Brawl. Sure it's not the only luck-based thing in Smash, but where do you draw the line in a competitive scene?

On smash balls: it's not an issue to me that final smashes aren't balanced - the characters were never balanced, they're just an extension of already unbalanced movesets and could even have a positive balance effect. I'd be willing to give them a try, but I'm still skeptical since they share the same problem all the other items do.

As for stages, I would love to see opened up to a much wider variety. Brawl has a ton of stages and even if some should be banned, it would be stupid to waste them all in favour of constantly recycling the same 6 pseudo-neutral stages. Of course in Melee - at Couch Warriors at least - most of the stages WERE open to be used, but people just end up using the neutral ones anyway because that's what they're familiar with or were genuinely the best counterpicks since most of us play high tier characters. I think if you want more stages to get used, the best way is to keep them on random so people get familiarized with them.

 

[Zant3tsuken]

Anyone else think the items thing would be better if there were no random spawns at all? As in all items are from the generated aspects of the stage, say the old Melee Peaches Castle, where theoretically it would be cool if there was that one item box in the centre of the stage with a predictable spawn and thats it? The game would be more about controlling spawns than random items. Pity theres no option for this, as far as I know there is no way of just turning off random spawn in Brawl.

There is another aspect of this though. The added luck with Smash would make it a viable betting game. People would have rankings and odds against others, that would make it cool, haha.

 

[Sirias]

Who's for or against having items in 'tournament' matches?

Im against.

Items, again, change the tide of battle too much (dependent of the item).
Tournaments are about 'skill'.
'SKILL'.

Items for friendlies.
Kgo.
x2

Or, selected items that, voted for, are alright to be in tournament matches.
And/or eligible reasons.
Kthx.

If there was a way to do what you say, Zan, then it would be 'alright'... "MAYBE".
Wouldn't the game be centered around getting the item, though?
And whoever gets the item (again, dependent on the item) would get the advantage?
I think the characters (Melee reference - Marth on Mewtwo or something like that) have certain advantages and disadvantages already.
Giving them more (adv. or disadv.) would be lame, don't you think?

And to Mic, it 'could' even out the characters you pick, but the characters you pick are your choice, so johnning about how: "Oh Marth is higher tier cry cry." Isn't really a good enough reason to have items in order to even the tiers out.
Choose a better (higher tier (not always)) character, then.
Don't put your hopes onto luck.
Go skill.
Skill.
Skill.
Kthxbai.

Gawd. I hope this doesn't carry on much longer.
50 posts discussing whether to put in items isn't fun to read. =/
And forgive me for not finding another topic to talk about.

 

[Dekar289]

i can't believe this is still going on.

all items, including smash balls, are OFF for tourneys. items are LUCK, and anyone who thinks that items or an item could even out tiers is dreaming.

end

 

[Dream Chaser]

I dont have the game yet. I think I'll wait until then before I form an opinion.
I'm going to start with default settings though (with stock ofcourse).

 

[Mic_128]

Tournaments are about 'skill'.
'SKILL'.

One can have a skill with items.

And to Mic, it 'could' even out the characters you pick, but the characters you pick are your choice, so johnning about how: "Oh Marth is higher tier cry cry." Isn't really a good enough reason to have items in order to even the tiers out.

It's got nothing to do with whining about how X is too uber, but more about getting more characters tournament viable. Sorry for using US tournaments as examples, but when was the last time you heard of Ness getting into a Tournament Final, let alone winning? Yes, some insanely skilled players sometimes get to the finals, but they almost always switch to a higher tiered character. Take Bringer for example. He's got one of, if not the best Yoshi, and yet in a Tournament match for finals, he whips out Fox.

Don't put your hopes onto luck.
Go skill.
Skill.
Skill.
Kthxbai.

Don't put your johns onto luck.
Go skill with Items.
Skill.
Skill.
Kthxbai.


Again, I've got no huge issues with items gradually being phased out of competative matches like they were in Melee if they do get phased out the way they were in Melee. Give everything a chance (a good one) and then if it doesn't work, take it out. Same with stages.

I just don't like the idea of banning something without actual good long hard playtime.

 

[Scrubs]

I didn't intend for this thread to be an argument about items being on or off.

You can't be FOR or AGAINST items without even having played the game.

Mic is right. The main point is that we don't ban everything straight away. We gradually find out what should be on and off through discussion.

Just because in Melee items added an element of luck does not mean that they do in Brawl.

IT IS A NEW GAME

We need to start from scratch.

I think it would be a waste to immediately ban stages/items/tactics etc.... Without them being tested first.

When I get the game next week. I will have some competitive veterans over and try to establish a few key points for everyone to start investigating/discussing.

 

[Redact]

urg fail internet stopped me from posting a stage analysis thing i did, 2-3 lines on each stage + a what i think of each stage for compeditive thing

now onto the topic of items again like everyone else is
ive had exploding capsuels spawn on someone again = theyre not on
ive had random spawns of even weak items that have turned the match around at the last second
(marth get mr saturn, throw it at me to edgeguard and i lose)
ive had a smash ball spawn inside someones smash attack, it spawned on a marth tipper and he instantly got it
with the again random spawns alone, its about LUCK
mic, with how avid you are about items, how does skill come into someone getting an item closer to them than someone else?
how does skill cause someone to get a smash ball before you could even press a button?
ive had more than just those 2 little examples happen to me, ive already played at least 20 hours + with many different item setting, and each time there was some form of luck over skill involved

if we can never settle on some form of agreement, lets just stick to this rule
whoever runs the tourney, chooses the rules
end of story

 

[Dekar289]

yup, and if you choose items on, nobody likes you =)

 

[Sirias]

Brawl isn't a 'completely' new game, Ben.
The only difference I see is the floatiness and possible even-ness with the characters.
Then again I haven't played it for myself but I have seen videos.

Also to what you say, Mic.
So what if Bringer uses Fox? That's his choice, no?
He uses the 'character' he would more likely have success with winning with.
And that's my point!
You don't see low-tier characters make it very high into tournaments, and who's fault is that? The people that choose them. People know that they're using a low-tier and have less of a chance.
It's sad that you'd have to limit yourself to a set few characters in order to 'generally' do well in a tournament, but I don't want to lose a final-final match due to, as Phil said, a Smash Ball spawning into my opponent's Smash Attack (I realise it's 'quite' a low percentage of that ever happening, but it's still something that 'can' happen).
The only 'skill' you have with items is throwing them to hit the opponent, or grabbing them in mid-air, or something like that.

It's OBVIOUS Smash Balls aren't going to be in either.
Why would they when it's 'more than clear' that some Final Smashes are better than others?
Wouldn't that make it even more broken?
Yes.
Do we want to make it more broken?
No.
And of course a lower tier (not that there's a tier list yet but I'm just saying) might have a better Final Smash than a higher tier, but if the higher tier gets the Final Smash then omg, there goes the lower tiers chance at getting a come-back.
And there. 'Chance'. Sigh.

And it would be a waste to ban items or stages or such without using them.
However if you 'think' about it... I think you'd realise 'some' items and 'some' stages would be 'better off' not being used.
E.G - Healing items. Pokeballs. Etc.

Also.
Brawl isn't OMG SO MAJORLY DIFFERENT TO MELEE COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY GAHHH!!!
It's a sequel to a game.
It's not a 'new game' entirely.
Why wouldn't a Heart in Brawl which recovers Health based on it appearing through luck not be the same as Melee?
And it added an element of luck to Melee. And it will also add an element of luck to Brawl. Because RANDOM SPAWN. RANDOM. Honestly...

I'm going to give up on this.
I'm not arguing either, I'm just sharing my 'stop trying to find tiny things to hold onto to make it seem like it's ok' opinion about items.
And also asking questions. =]

Edit:

Gah, I said the same thing about three times. DELETE, much?

 

[Zant3tsuken]

If there was a way to do what you say, Zan, then it would be 'alright'... "MAYBE".
Wouldn't the game be centered around getting the item, though?

To the extent that it doesn't dominate the game. Doesn't fighting over getting the items in the first place sound good to you? It does me. It removes campy, and makes level designs much more important, because you're forced to control space more. You already do this with edge guarding which is an important element to the game. A lot of fighters are fundamentally about controlling space.

And whoever gets the item (again, dependent on the item) would get the advantage?
I think the characters (Melee reference - Marth on Mewtwo or something like that) have certain advantages and disadvantages already.
Giving them more (adv. or disadv.) would be lame, don't you think?

If the high tier characters were much better with items and controlling space and low tier characters the opposite, then of course, I agree. My idea is based entirely around the potential it has to offer. You're thinking of it in Melee terms, which of course I understand. If Brawl had this factored into it's balance it would add a layer of depth.

And to Mic, it 'could' even out the characters you pick, but the characters you pick are your choice, so johnning about how: "Oh Marth is higher tier cry cry." Isn't really a good enough reason to have items in order to even the tiers out.
Choose a better (higher tier (not always)) character, then.
Don't put your hopes onto luck.
Go skill.
Skill.
Skill.
Kthxbai.

I know you are addressing Mic, but it kinda contradicts what you said above. If items actually balanced the tiers in a situation where it does not reduce skill, then isn't this a good thing?

Honestly, I'm sure you're all sick of it and I didn't mean to detract from this thread, the idea I had was something that I thought would be cool if implemented into the game, thats all. I certainly wouldn't want final smashes in the game, and items as they currently are. Controlled spawns yes, random spawns no.

 

[Sirias]

It's ok that you're keeping it going it means you want it to be heard out.

If anyone else quotes me and finds flaws in what I say or uses them to find something you want to say against it from now on I'm not gonna bother reading it, sorry, I'm over it anyway.

I hear you.
Whatever happens happens, what I say isn't going to influence anything anyway so I don't understand why I'm wasting my time with this any longer.

It's just that if items were used, I don't want to hear anyone crying about them later on.
It's easier to take them off and stay like it that way (omg, Ben, I realise you're going to say or think something along the lines of: "We're trying to eradicate all sorts of talk/thoughts like that." or w/e) because, yes, it's how Melee was done, and wasn't Melee good?
Omg Brawl is a different game though. SIGH.

I think I don't even want to play Brawl anymore.
Especially if items are used, lol.
Not that that's a big loss.
And I guess from me saying that everything I said is completely biased because I don't want items in because I want to play Brawl how Melee was played.
Rah rah rah.
Melee was fun, with items it was alright, however it was more of a fun factor than a serious factor.
Again, it was Melee.
Right right.

... Wolfie will protect me. <33
And Foxxie and Falco...ie.

Apparently Brawl isn't going to much of a competitive thing as Melee (according to some people I shant name).
That in itself doesn't make me want to play it.

... I JUST WANNA PLAY FREDDO!
Nothing else matters!
Ok there's my final rant, excuse me now. <3
Love you all, kthx smoochie.

 

[Sloth]

People who are for items tend to grasp at tiny little straws and cling onto them and make them sound important. Reminds me of Religion.

I'll give items a chance, a very slight one in Brawl. Brawl is not like a whole new game as Kas said. Fundamentally it follows the same principles that Melee was constructed off. That being the case, even if physics and potentional are limited, it will still suffer from items.

And Zant. Fighting over item control space sounds like a boring thing to do. Melee was already so well constructed over spacing and control when your just infront of your opponent that it was too good.
Also I don't understand why some people think items remove camping??? ? ? ? Heck it IMPROVES camping.

Hey Ben, want me to come over Monday? I don't think I am doing anything else cept playing WoW or DDR

 

[Redact]

got bored, felt like doing this

now for my stage analysis
i dont know why, but i want to do this lol
ill say what i think of each stage in a competitive setting, ill just say if i think its good or bad


Battlefield
of course this one is a random neutral, no need to explain

Final Destination
same here

Delfino Plaza
Really cool and fun stage, nothing that interferes with fights or randomly damages, very neutral set out, doesnt heavily
favor any characters ive seen so far
my opinion: really good, should be a random neutral imo

Luigi's Mansion
pretty neutral set out, symmetrical, not too huge, nothing ive seen can hit players or anything, the stage can be broken
but that isn't a huge thing
my opinion: maybe not neutral, seems like it could favour a few characters, but it should at least be a counter-pick

Mushroomy Kingdom
dont get me started, scrolling stage along with the bricks/? mark blocks interferes alot, could land an fsmash on a
lightweight with ike at 150% and they could still live by bouncing off all the random blocks
my opinion: counter pick or ban

Mario Circuit
there may be the cars but theres fair warning for the cars coming, they come the same way each time, and they cant even
kill light weights at 80% or such, symmetrical set-out and isnt too big
my opinion: counter pick stage

Rumble Falls
instant kill spikes? moving stage where some characters can barely keep up?
my opinion: ban

Bridge of Eldin
big plain and flat, like FD but it keeps going, only thing is the random enemy/blowing up of the middle part, the bomb can
kill at low%
my opinion: counterpick

Great Sea
random bombs that can kill at low %, the cyclone parts mess up the gravity, gets kinda funky
my opinion: counterpick, but leaning to ban

Norfair
not so random lava moving around, neutral kind of setup along with the easyness to dodge the lava
my opinion: counterpick

Frigate Orpheon
seems pretty good, apart from the flip around (theres fair warning, a siren goes off along with flashing) the flip around
doesnt even gimp from what ive seen, so it should be cool
my opinion: counterpick, maybe even neutral random

Yoshi's Island
the only random thing is 2 platforms that appear, its a very neutral symmetrical map, perfect for a neutral random
my opinion: neutral random

Battleship Halberd
generally neutral set out even though it changes from time to time, there is a lazer that comes at a point that can kill,
but it doesnt kill to easily, and the claw cant really kill either, but i dont know about the bomb, will check it out later
my opinion: counterpick, maybe ban

Lylat Cruise
wow the stage tips over a little bit, that its, the rest it just stays neutral
my opinion: neutral random

Pokemon Stadium 2
the stages are a bit more wacky this time around, it has a neutral set out but the stages, ice one makes you slip, wind you
can practically fly, its not too bad but still a tad weird
my opinion: counterpick, maybe ban

Spear Pillar
the stage has an awesome set out, but **** the pokemon interfere TONS
huge lazer that kills at low % that covers half the map, random wind blades that target people, flipping over stage,
slow motion, anything you can think of its here, i like it for friendlies but jesus theres alot of interference
my opinion: ban

Port Town
feels just like mute city, just a different look, doesnt kill at low % with the track and is usually symmetrical
EDIT: the cars, not the track, kill heavyweights at like 50%, ban imo
my opinion: ban

Castle Seige
the stage change can gimp, but the 3 different lay outs are pretty neutral, not to big or small
my opinion: counterpick

Distant Planet
the changing weather and the guy that comes on the left can gimp, but thats only if your not careful at all, good layout
and isnt too big imo
my opinion: counterpick

Smashville
another very neutral stage, its just FD with a moving platform in the middle
my opinion: random neutral

New Pork City
WAAAYYY to big, instant 200% damage, usually instant kill monters.
my opinion: ban

The Summit
the layout doesnt change but the slipping effect could be bad, but the part thats bad is the random insta kill fish in the
water, along with the low grav part when sliding down
my opinion: counterpick or ban, leaning to ban

Skyworld
pretty cool stage, the platforms may change due to breaking but the cloud replacements add to it
my opinion: neutral random or counterpick, leaning to neutral random

75m
huge, platforms can save at high %, the 2d donkey kong can deal huge damage and is lame with his barrels or that stuff
my opinion: ban

Mario Bros.
the turtle shells can be lame, and can almost never die due to teching + the roofs, it may have a symmetrical set out but the
features make it bad
my opinion: ban or counterpick, heavily leaning towards ban

Flat Zone 2
bit bigger than the old flat zone, but still has random interference that can kill at low %
my opinion: ban

Pictochat
the random interference can dead some huge damage, but ive never seen it kill, the main problem is that toon links downsmash
can HUGELY gimp on this stage due to the slanted edges, some characters (cfalcon for example) CANNOT make it back after being
hit with dsmash at the edge even at 0% with di
my opinion: ban due to toon link

Electroplankton
the platforms may move, and its a really annoying set out for me, but there isnt anything actually wrong with it, just cant swim
in what looks like water
my opinion: counterpick

Shadow Moses Island
the walls are destroyable but with how fox/others can infinite against the wall can really wreck it
my opinion: ban due to infinites

Green Hill Zone
pretty neutral, the checkpoint pillar in the middle that you can hit people with is a bit lame, but its pretty cool in general,
not to big or small
my opinion: counterpick


Melee Stages
Hyrule Temple
same thing as in melee, you can run with fox/others again after gettng a little %
my opinion: still ban

Yoshi's Island
with how brawl characters feel bigger on melee stages now, this one feels really small, its not to bad in general though
my opinion: counterpick

Jungle Japes
same as last time, just that you can swim now, too bad you get swept away still
my opinion: counterpick

Fourside
really easy infinites for alot of characters, feels a bit too small along with the random car
my opinion: counterpick or ban, leaning to ban

Corneria
same old same old, cant really infinite due to the slant of the wall on the right
my opinion: counterpick

Rainbow Ride
same thing as last time
my opinion: counterpick

Green Greens
same yet again
my opinion: counterpick

Big Blue
with floatier characters and the way the stage is, i think it should be a counterpick personally
my opinion: counterpick or ban, leaning to counterpick

Planet Brinstar
same old
my opinion: counterpick

Pokemon Stadium
yet again, same old
my opinion: random neutral




feel free to criticize me for anything ive said, plus tell me what you think

EDIT: changed port city details

 

[Bjay]

Since I've finally played Brawl I can contribute based on my knowledge so far and experience.

No Final Smashes. I love Final Smashes, I really do.

But once you use it, you're practically invincible. You can't be hurt. Unless you kill yourself... -.- But yeah you just can't be hurt. But if you're fine with Stars being in the game, Final Smashes go in too.

But I still love Final Smashes.

Just a suggestion...Why not have an items tournament, and your non-items tournament? Maybe themed tournaments too? Just suggestions.

 

[Scrubs]

Nice Redact thanks a lot.

Gives us a idea of how all the stages play.

 

[Darkwing SykeDuk]

zomg my leet in-depth analysis coming soon <3 (it's like 3k words wtfuark!?!?!?!?)

 

[Redact]

the more i play brawl (and the more i let others play brawl) the more i see myself, and the more i see others not enjoying the game as much as melee, its not the lack of l-cancel, its not the lack of wavedash
its not the new physics
its just we generally feel a lack of depth, lack of variety and a lack of just plain fun-ness
it lasts for a short time, **** brawl was fun at first but for me, its pretty **** boring already
sure i have played alot recently, but it really doesnt feel like it can overtake melee
my meet today even turned into half melee though i had brawl right here, some of the guys who only first played it today could already see that it lacks in many ways
were still running this stuff at monthlies to give it a shot
were all still holding out hope for it (cept cao from what i think XD)
but personally, i dont see it lasting.
also from what i heard turtle say, turns out melbourne arent the only ones that think that
scubs/syke/other importers, i really wanna know what you guys have to say about this after a week or two of having brawl
hopefully something changes my mind somehow, i dont like the idea of the release of brawl being useless to the compeditive scene here

 

[CAOTIC]

I got sick of it the day after playing it at Shaz's 2 weeks ago.

It will NEVER hold a candle to Melee

 

[Darkwing SykeDuk]

I got sick of it the day after playing it at Shaz's 2 weeks ago.

It will NEVER hold a candle to Melee

QFT

10 chars

 

[Sirias]

<3 Cao-kyuuuuuutiiiiiiieeeeee!~ <3 <3

Brawl for stuff (random, anything, just for fun maybe).
Melee for tournies.
Sad face. :C

 

[Scrubs]

You have to give the game some time.

Immediately comparing it to Melee is a bit unfair. Melee has taken 7 years to get to the stage it is at now.

Brawl has been out for less than a month. Not everyone has the game yet.

Go check out the advanced technique thread in General Brawl discussion.

 

[Sirias]

Yeah, you're right.
For all I, or we, know, there could be a lot more advanced stuff that might make it a lot more competitive than Brawl.
You never knnnooowww!!! :D

 

[Zant3tsuken]

Yeah, you're right.
For all I, or we, know, there could be a lot more advanced stuff that might make it a lot more competitive than Brawl.
You never knnnooowww!!! :D

I wouldn't hold your hopes up, and I'm a little tired of seeing people say this.

There wasn't much of a scene back when Melee came out, if any at all (as far as I can tell). It took time to discover this stuff simply because there was no hardcore community to develop them for a time, and even when techniques were discovered it took time for them to come into use as people took time to to learn them and actually accommodate them into their game.

This isn't really going to happen as much in Brawl, being analysed so strongly. I'm guessing it's more hidden nuances will be discovered in the first 6 months of it being out. Doesn't make it any less worthwhile to run proper competitions for, it just isn't going to be replacing Melee anytime soon.

 

[Scrubs]

Got the game!

It's cool.

Will be playing with all the QLD greats:

King Kong
Sirias
Sloth

.....and many more.

Will post back soon with impressions.

 

[Sirias]

I never said anything about it replacing Melee, lol.
To me Melee is dead and old.
If Brawl is something new I want to try it out.
Although I really don't care about it 'competitively'.
OH WELL!
I say that now but I'll probably change later on and go: "PRO MELEE!" Or: "PRO BRAWL!"

And LOL Ben.
No Zac included. XD
<3 u 4eva

 

[Darkwing SykeDuk]

It's cause I'm not going, I've had the game for over a week now kthx <3

 

[Mic_128]

The lack of a very low for items makes me a sad chappy.

Brawl isn't as fast as Melee but is still quick, just you arent going from combo to combo and more to move to move.

 

[Sloth]

After playing brawl yesterday. Fundamentally it is a lot like melee imo. Smashballs are over-powered as ferk! And too easily random spawn / non-skill the even be considered into tournament play.
If we used items it would be very much the same as melee. Maybe even more campy. So I say no-to items.

Mic the only way I see your dream of low-items if for you perth guys to try them out and record some vids to show us there potentional. I doubt QLD will be playing with them at all.

omigod Ike and Pit are fun. I like brawl personally and am looking forward to see its growth in the next few months.

 

[Divine_Crono]

I've had maybe two days worth of Brawl, and it has brought about a few thoughts.

Firstly: as much as I love Final Smashes, and as much as there is an argument about having the skill to control the stage overrule the randomness of the Smash Ball, it simply doesn't work out that way. If there were Smash Balls in Melee, there would have been a much higher chance that they were implemented in tournament play due to how much easier it was to move - until I reach my second point.

As sweet as Great Aether is, I have to side with the fact that the Ball will show up and do one thing: change the goal of the immediate game. Instead of being totally focused on controlling your opponent, you would now have to control him/her and an entire stage, too - and with mechanics as they are, there are so many characters with huge mobility advantages over so many others. It seems to lack the appeal of you beating your opponent, instead changing things to your ubermove beating your opponent.

Maybe, just maybe, Brawl’s lack of competitiveness in the skill department could be fixed by the presence of Smash Balls - you have to fight that much smarter and that much faster in a game where it’s harder to do either - but it’s wrecked when you actually get it. If we argue that control is the majority of what earns you the Smash Ball, why the hell would you need it at all? You already have enough of an advantage over your opponent - the only logical reason to put in the Smash Ball, then, is to help the underdog. And since when did we play tournaments with handicaps? It’s even stranger still when implementing the item for the loser, we practically give the advantage to the winner. There’s no sense in it other than “HAHAHA FIRIN MAH SAMUS LAZOR”. Perhaps if we had clones of ourselves, there would be some rhyme or reason to putting Smash Balls in competitive play.

We all played Melee competitively without items, and as far as I know, not one person refused to play outright because they wanted items. I'd say it will be the same with Brawl, should it become competitive.

And yeah, I don't think it will. I'm also /facepalm'ing when people say "it might be competitive soon!" as if there's some wonderful cure-all still hidden in this game - despite the fact that it's been tested to oblivion and back. If there was something that gamebreaking, something that could fix Brawl up and throw it past Melee, you'd think it would have been more obvious, huh? I kinda expect this miracle fix to be like the equivalent of fifty differently executed wavedashes and l-cancels - it just won't be short and sweet enough to be viable. That's been pretty much assured. If something does make it out of the works, then I'll shut up, but based on all the reliable evidence I've seen up until this point, it really does make me conclude Brawl just won't do it.

Items will always be a debate about skill vs. luck, and counter to that, control vs. lack skill.

Items make FFA's a lot more fun in Brawl. Items make 1v1 Brawl even less challenging. Smash Balls make Brawl FFA more fun than I've ever had with Melee FFA. Smash Balls also make 1v1 horrible. It's not even about the skill to control it - just as soon as somebody has it, the other person will die. It's about as fair as taking the controller off your opponent and jumping them off the stage. The fairness in the ability to get the Ball is far, far beneath the fairness of what happens after, and that's why I say no to Smash Balls.

What I also say as a result of that last paragraph is this: Brawl is a fantastic party game. 1v1 is good, not great, but FFA is probably where this game shines. Focusing on one person with the game as slow as it is isn't as satisfying as concentrating on three - it works quite nicely. Melee was too hectic for it.

I'm a little disappointed, since I was hoping Brawl WOULD be Melee 2.0 - competitive, fast, and with the same element of control that we had in Melee. As much as I also hate the people who EXPECTED Melee 2.0 even after the fact that it was found not to be and still carry on about it, it would have been nice to come into the Smash scene at the same time as everyone else and feel like I was really in the forefront for a change.

As far as our stage rulings go, I don't think it's wise to be different for the sake of being different. It's almost like the items debate - people are trying to think outside the box too hard. The box works fine. The solution for banned stages in the past? They were friendlies. Friendlies are isolated games where people can have what they want individually and still be satisfied with the result - tournaments are meant to be universal, where everyone agrees, so that we can really believe that our rankings mean something. It's kinda like we're trying to change everyone's opinions in here rather than reach a reasonable agreement with each other.

Besides, there are plenty of new things in what I believed to be neutral stages. There are quite a few that are neutral, anyways.

Final verdict from me is that if we're trying to get Brawl to be competitive, it would make sense to base it on what we know worked from Melee - as much as they are different games, they still have the same goal in mind. Stage selections, items, and even stock limits. I've played around with them a bit and they really do seem to feel the best as they were for Melee.

I'm just about over the debate on competitive Brawl, though. I'll enjoy it more than Melee just because it's still new, and that I really felt left behind in Melee, and finally, that it is just a lot of fun with other people around, but it's simply not as competitive.

Brawl is the better of the two games for me - and I’ve pretty much forfeited my competitive playing for that.

/rant

 

[Sirias]

You're over it...
But that's like the longest post ever. :D
Pro.

And that's what I thought... why try to be different just to be different, lulz.
We are so unique~!
And Australian~! ( lulz I'm not even Aussie I'm an NZer but I live in Aus so I'm god C: )
THEREFORE WE ARE GODLY AND CAN MAKE OUR OWN SPECIALZOR RULEZ!
Not rly but we can alter the universally accepted ones.
I.E - US and Japan lulz.
But then again PAL might be a lot different to NTSC needing new rulez...
THAT IS if it even becomes competitive and I don't know if it will be.
People can enjoy not wave-dashing all the time and dash-dancing 500 times...
Though L-Cancelling...

Anyway.
Omg omg omg.
Might be going to Ben's today to raid his house for MP3 and then play Brawl need to shower nao CIAO!

 

[Zant3tsuken]

*snip*
/rant

Exceptionally well put, and I feel like I'm in a very similar position to you. I anticipate that Brawl will be run alongside Melee in a 1v1 similar ruleset for a very long time, but I won't be surprised if it doesn't show up at Evo or whatever.

That said, nothing wrong with thinking outside of the box. This is what these discussions threads are for. Apologies if I boggled a few people with the opinions on items, it was a theory that sadly won't be tested irl with the way Brawl was, and is based around my thoughts on how other fighting games use controlling space as an important game element. It's more game philosophy and design than anything really practical.