Australian Competitive Brawl Ruleset Discussion *Update: 15/05/08* *Spoilers*

[Sloth]

H3 = FPS. You can control character spawns in Quake 3. In all major 1-1 fps games it is about weapon control/Power up control. I don't see your point Zak? What are you agreeing or disagreeing too?

 

[Scrubs]

Okay, discussion time.

Stages

Here are some opinions about stage selection from people who own the game. I encourage anyone who owns the game or plays it regularly to contribute.

Zac

Neutral

Battlefield
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Castle Siege

Counterpicks

Luigi's Mansion
Mario Circuit
Bridge of Eldin
Great Sea
Frigate Orpheon
Battleship Halberd
Skyworld
Green Hill Zone

Banned

Mushroomy Kingdom
Rumble Falls
Norfair
Pokemon Stadium 2
Port Town
Wario Ware
Distant Planet
New Pork City
The Summit
Pictochat
Shadow Moses Island
Donkey Kong Arcade
Spear Pillar
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Electroplankton

Scrubs

Neutral

Smashville
Final Destination
Battlefield
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise

Counterpicks

Delfino Plaza
Great Sea
Frigate Orpheon
Port Town
Castle Siege
Distant Planet
Pokemon Stadium 2
Skyworld
Pictochat
Electroplankton
Jungle Japes
Onett
Corneria
Rainbow Ride
Green Greens
Brinstar
Pokemon Stadium 1

Banned

Luigi's Mansion
Mushroomy Kingdom
Mario Circuit
Rumble Falls
Bridge of Eldin
Norfair
Halberd
Spear Pillar
Wario Ware
New Pork City
The Summit
75m
Mario Bros.
Flatzone 2
Hyrule Temple
Mario Stage
Yoshi's Island(Melee)
Big Blue

Shaz, Cats

Neutral

Battlefield
Final Destination
Bridge of Eldin
Yoshi's Story
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Smashville
Corneria
Pokemon Stadium 1

Counterpicks

Delfino Plaza
Luigi's Mansion
Mario's Circuit
Great Sea
Norfair
Frigate Orpheon
Battleship Halberd
Pokemon Stadium 2
Spear Pillar
Distant Planet
Skyworld
Pictochat
Shadow Moses Island
Electroplankton
Green Hill Zone
Yoshi's Island(Melee)
Jungle Japes
Rainbow Ride
Onett
Brinstar
Green Greens

Banned

Mushroomy Kingdom
New Pork City
75m
Port Town
Mario Bros
Flat Zone 2
Big Blue
Hyrule Temple

Okay the following are the stages that not everyone agrees on id est those that need discussion.

Note: N = Neutral, C = Counterpick, B = Banned

Delfino Plaza

Scrubs: C
Shaz, Cats: C
Zac : N

Castle Siege

Zac: N
Shaz, Cats: N
Scrubs: C

Bridge of Eldin

Scrubs: B
Shaz, Cats: N
Zac: C

Corneria

Scrubs: C
Zac: C
Shaz, Cats: N

Luigi's Mansion

Zac: C
Shaz, Cats: C
Scrubs: B

Mario Circuit

Zac: C
Shaz, Cats: C
Scrubs: B

Yoshi's Island(Melee)

Scrubs: B
Shaz, Cats: C

Battle Ship Halberd

Zac: C
Shaz, Cats: C
Scrubs: B

Norfair

Zac: B
Scrubs: B
Shaz, Cats: C

Pokemon Stadium 2

Scrubs: C
Shaz, Cats : C
Zac: B

Spear Pillar

Scrubs: B
Zac: B
Shaz, Cats: C

Distant Planet

Scrubs: C
Shaz, Cats: C
Zac: B

Pictochat

Scrubs: C
Shaz, Cats: C
Zac: B

Shadow Moses Island

Zac: B
Scrubs: B
Shaz, Cats: C

Green Hill Zone

Zac: C
Shaz, Cats: C
Scrubs: B

Port Town

Zac: B
Shaz, Cats: B
Scrubs: C


Ok discuss!

 

[Darkwing SykeDuk]

I'm saying items are more apt for fps than fighting games. As there are 4 people per side as well as set spawns there is a lot more strategy in map control than say smash singles or 2v2 were everything is random. It's also not as overpowered getting the upgrades in halo as getting say a smash ball would be. I'm sure they fixed the set spawns for smash though. As in they randomly spawn at set spawns not in order.

edit: zomg wall of text!! Pstadium 2 should definitely be banned because of all the weird changes to physics it has and just upsets the game too much. Other than that i really don't care tbh.

 

[Sloth]

I'll start with a very simple one. Bridge of Eldin.
First time playing this stage against Scrubs dedede, it was instant ban imo. This is due to chain-grabbing. Dedede and IC against certain characters can literally grab you in the centre and CG you to death.. since there is nothing to grab hold of at the end.

Its like how Fox could fundamental break Hyrule Temple in melee due to running around. Because of these few characters it needs to be banned.

Agree/Disagree??

 

[Darkwing SykeDuk]

Agreed, someone could also use fox and get gimp kills of the top against someone who can't kill as easily off the top like pit or mk and have to kill them on the sides, and the fox could camp the middle. p.s. that list I put up isn't my opinion, just some random list I found in brawl discussion.

 

[Scrubs]

Yeah a lot to read but I needed to summarise everything

Anyway my thoughts on the stages that need to be discussed.

Delfino

I think: Counterpick

Too much variation to be a neutral stage. Neutral stages should give no character an advantage. This stage may favor some characters.

Castle Siege

I think: Counterpick

Too much variation to be neutral. Walk of edges on second transformation encourage back throw camping and advantage certain characters.

Corneria

I think: Counterpick

Low ceiling advantages characters with strong up smashes like Lucas, Fox etc....

Luigi's Mansion

I think: Banned

On the bottom level, if the stage hasn't been destroyed you can tech of the platforms and live to high percentages.

Bridge of Eldin, Mario Circuit, Yoshi's Island (Melee), Shadow Moses Island, Green Hill Zone

I think: Banned

Walk off edges encourage back throw camping, prolonging match time and changing the game play. Advantage to characters with large grab range.

Battle Ship Halberd

I think: Banned

Hazards are hard to avoid and extremely damaging.

Norfair

I think: Banned

Ahhh.... Huge waves of lava consume the stage, the only way to survive is to seek protection in a box. Ridiculous

Spear Pillar

I think: Banned

Hazards are extremely damaging. The slow mo effect can be activated.

Pokemon Stadium 2

I think: Counterpick

Hazards/Level changes effect all charcters exactly the same. You could learn to adapt to them.

Distant Planet

I think: Counterpick

Rain prevents back throw camping on walk of ledge. Items(little bottle cap things from pikmen) spawn at the same spots all the time. Hazard is fairly simple and easy to avoid.

Pictochat

I think: Counter

Stage changes are not damaging or unfair. May advantage certain characters. Can be adapted to.

Port Town

I think: Counter

Cars are avoidable. Stage moves in a set pattern.

 

[Redact]

not to be brutally harsh or anything, just to be honest
scrubs: you seem to have like.... barely done any research on half of this stuff, and havent even looked back on melee's neutrals

"Corneria

I think: Counterpick

Low ceiling advantages characters with strong up smashes like Lucas, Fox etc...."

pk stadium in melee = low ceiling too, yes it does have the somewhat random ships, but that stuff is like blatently obvious when it comes

"Bridge of Eldin, Mario Circuit, Yoshi's Island (Melee), Shadow Moses Island, Green Hill Zone

I think: Banned

Walk off edges encourage back throw camping, prolonging match time and changing the game play. Advantage to characters with large grab range."

too many characters can easily escape dedede chain, along with IC chain
if you walk into a back throw camp, you deserve to lose the stock early
we have a 6 minute limit, its not even as long as melee, and peach v peach matches were legal in melee too
advantage to characters with bigger grab range? when was a neutral stage every truly neutral, everyone knows here that not a single one of melee's neutrals were actually neutral, some characters best stages WERE neutrals

"Battle Ship Halberd

I think: Banned

Hazards are hard to avoid and extremely damaging."

if you cant dodge that stuff, then you probably should quit

"Norfair

I think: Banned

Ahhh.... Huge waves of lava consume the stage, the only way to survive is to seek protection in a box. Ridiculous"

try spot dodge, and the side lava/bottom lava is obvious

"Spear Pillar

I think: Banned

Hazards are extremely damaging. The slow mo effect can be activated."

this is only in rambo because its such an awesome stage, yeah its a tad ********, i wanna talk to cats/shaz about that

"Port Town

I think: Counter

Cars are avoidable. Stage moves in a set pattern."

half of the time the cars give no indication, can kill some characters at less than 20%


im not trying to be mean to scrubs, i love you scrubsy, but some of that stuff is a little ******** imo
ps: the list that cats/shaz came up with, i talked to them about it too, though they made most of it

 

[Atticus]

Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege

N - I don't think variation should be a problem, considering a lack of it is an advantage for some characters and the stages are otherwise great. If random is supposed to be neutral, stages with variation like this are only fair.

Luigi's Mansion

N - Why not? Sure you can tech off the platforms, but the stage isn't exactly hard to destroy, which would surely become desirable against a high % opponent. I like this one.

Bridge of Eldin, Corneria, Mario Circuit, Yoshi's Island(Melee), Pokemon Stadium 2, Distant Planet, Pictochat, Shadow Moses Island, Green Hill Zone

C - As a disclaimer I haven't been exposed to much use of any game-breaking tactics like chaingrabbing to death on walk-off stages, so if it truly is going to be a serious problem I may be more inclined to ban those ones. But until then, they're fine.

Battleship Halberd, Port Town

C - I think it's funny that some people think Halberd should be banned because hazards are hard to avoid and extremely damaging but want Port Town legal, while others take the vice versa position using the same argument. I say make them both legal.

Norfair

C - You don't need to be inside the box for the lava waves - you can just dodge them!

Spear Pillar

C - I think the crazy hazards and effects only make for a more dynamic and interesting match. It's not neutral material, but it's not unfair either and it can be a lot of fun.

 

[Sloth]

Redact, its good to see Melbourne people have a different on-look of what is considered neutral.
When I look back on melee, its not like the neutral stages didn't benefit the low-tier characters. The fact is the top-tiers were so good they would murder on most stages in the game - regardless.

Neutral stages should be the most mundane stages.
Counter-picks should have little random bits but nothing that is ground breaking
Banned of course would be if it creates an almost unwinnable situation/extreme random

too many characters can easily escape dedede chain, along with IC chain

As far as I am aware and endured, if dedede does his CG perfectly you can't escape it. If the player screws up the timing, it is easy to get out of.
I'm not sure if Melb has a decent dedede player at all, but done perfectly, you can literally grab them anywhere and zero-to-death on Bridge of Eldin. Isn't that enough to consider banning a level?

Of course if you can always escape the CG, I will become more open to your suggestions on this level, as of this moment tho I can conceive its possibility in competitive play.

Now for Corneia, if you followed a defined principle of what creates a neutral stage, it should remain a counter-pick. I have nothing against the level personally, its just at some point you need to define what is really a neutral and what really constituents as counter-pick.
Just because something is obvious doesn't make it neutral. Its the fact that is it is a non-controlled element of the level is what creates the problem.

I guess in that sense I just described you could rebuttal with Pokemon stadium in melee, but the changes never dealt damage to you, and the level changes remain quiet neutral themselves, the rock part being the only gimp one if you didn't camp it out.

The rest of the levels I haven't played enough around in to really merit a contribution that would be worthy of input.

 

[Scrubs]

not to be brutally harsh or anything, just to be honest
scrubs: you seem to have like.... barely done any research on half of this stuff, and havent even looked back on melee's neutrals

Umm insightful. I am not sure what you mean by research. This is just my opinion.

This thread is not for arguing against each other. It is to argue for or against stages.

Something along the lines of.

I think Stage should be a Counterpick because.......

Would be a more appropriate thing to say.

Secondly Melee's neutral stages have nothing to do with this at all. This is Brawl not Melee.

pk stadium in melee = low ceiling too, yes it does have the somewhat random ships, but that stuff is like blatently obvious when it comes

Pokemon Stadium dpes not have a low ceiling. It is on par or maybe slightly lower than Final Destination. Corneria's ceiling is much much lower.

too many characters can easily escape dedede chain, along with IC chain
if you walk into a back throw camp, you deserve to lose the stock early
we have a 6 minute limit, its not even as long as melee, and peach v peach matches were legal in melee too
advantage to characters with bigger grab range? when was a neutral stage every truly neutral, everyone knows here that not a single one of melee's neutrals were actually neutral, some characters best stages WERE neutrals

I'd like to draw attention to the first line. Too many characters...... not ALL but too many. A stage that forces the opponent to change characters should not be allowed.

Back throw camping distracts from the basics of the game. It extends the game time.

What does the 6 minute time limit have to do with ANYTHING at all.

Once again this is not Melee it is Brawl.

About some characters best stages being neutral who cares. This is Brawl not Melee.

if you cant dodge that stuff, then you probably should quit

Personal attacks aren't appropriate lines of argument. Please stick to facts about the stage.

The game isn't about dodging giant laser beams and bombs being shot at you. It distracts from the basics of the game.

 

[Darkwing SykeDuk]

Secondly Melee's neutral stages have nothing to do with this at all. This is Brawl not Melee.

Pokemon Stadium in Melee didn't have a low ceiling. It was lower than Dreamland 64 but it was on par with Final Destination. Corneria's ceiling is much much lower.

XD

Ummm personal attacks aren't really suitable lines of argument.

I will refrain from commenting on your Melee ability because flaming is wrong.

The game isn't about dodging giant laser beams and bombs being shot at you. It distracts from the basics of the game.

Your like a living contradiction.

 

[Scrubs]

XD


Your like a living contradiction.

Huh?

I don't know what you're on about.

 

[Darkwing SykeDuk]

Stage discussion is pointless atm anyway, the americans will have rules set up within a week of brawl coming out.

 

[Scrubs]

The whole point of this thread is to develop our own rules. Not to copy the Americans.

They will have the most streamlined rule set imaginable.

 

[Redact]

me and cats both play dedede, and both of us know alot of characters can escape his chain throw, even if you do the shield canelled grab to make it faster, the concept of a neutral is not that theres nothing random to interfere, or else there would be alot more stages allowed in melee as neutrals
neutral means = theres little to no advantage for some characters
but then again, we saw how un-true that was in melee, marth story, fox stadium, falco destination, so on so forth

what does the comparison to melee have to do with brawl? alot
time limits were introduced to make tourneys faster
stock was decreased (was 5 in the much earlier days) to make tourneys faster
they didnt introduce those 2 things because it was more boring or such
we have a 6 minute time limit now, thats even faster for tourneys, and less stock
yes it may be a slower game, but the 6 minute limit guarantees there wont be any extremely prolonged matches. so even if some dodgey tactic still prolongs a match, the slowest brawl match would still be faster than the slowest melee matches
we had flatland stages as counterpicks in melee down here, barely anyone used them but they were perfectly fine, i dont see why our actual neutral set wasnt changed down here, i wouldnt mind it being added too
as i said before, if someone changes characters, it isnt their main then, if they can beat you with that, they should be able to beat you with their main.
backthrow camping is a viable tactic, like i said before, if you actually fall for something so sadly easy to get around, you deserve to lose the stock

im not trying to argue against YOU, im trying to argue against why you want some stages in, and some stages out, sorry if you see this as some form of personal attack
its atticus's fault

just to let you know scrubs, melee ability =/= knowledge of the game
theres cats, he is probably the guy in the melb circuit who knows the most about melee, but he gets beaten by others who dont actually know as much about the game, he doesnt just know about trivia style knowledge, he knows how the system works the most in the game, and the most about pretty much every aspect
the only person i think would possibly know more about it, is shaz

 

[King Kong]

i agree with Ben regarding making our own ruleset regarding stages etc. i hate the idea of us just copying the American way verbatim.

Redact: As a DK player I have no way to escape Dedede's chain throw on Eldin, if its kept as a counterpick then any Dedede player has basically a free win on me on that level unless I change character, and a stage that FORCES you to change characters should be banned.

peace out

 

[undead_moose]

Ike and zsuit cant be chaingrabed by dedede so im all good

shadow moses could stay a counter pick seeming as you still have to destroy the walls to be able to get dedede to chain throw you to death

 

[Sloth]

the concept of a neutral is not that theres nothing random to interfere, or else there would be alot more stages allowed in melee as neutrals
neutral means = theres little to no advantage for some characters
but then again, we saw how un-true that was in melee, marth story, fox stadium, falco destination, so on so forth

This is partially incorrect. Neutral does mean little to no advantage, it cuts down anything random, it gives ledges to hold on to, neutral stages are generally designed to negate camping - negative walk off edges - thus bringing the closet thing to balance as possible.

Did you miss the point I made?

The fact is the top-tiers were so good they would murder on most stages in the game - regardless.

I can't believe I have to discuss melee here. Try to refrute what I just said otherwise just take-note. Good characters would be good on most stages regardless.
I'd go as far to say that Marth was the only character with a distinct advantage on the neutrals, but it wasn't so ground-breaking that everyone had to counter-pick him. Infact he died easily on most of them just the same as everyone else.

so even if some dodgey tactic still prolongs a match, the slowest brawl match would still be faster than the slowest melee matches

I'll just quote the end bit since the rest is pretty much meaningless. Scrubs isn't trying talking about stalling as a concept, he is rather debating that characters can camp the edges, and use the walk-off's for a very distinct and over-powered advantage. Why didn't we see more walk-off stages neutral in melee? because of that reason.
And just because there is game-time doesn't mean they will move. Heck I wouldn't.

just to let you know scrubs, melee ability =/= knowledge of the game

And scrubs could beat Cats in melee. He isn't a random. The point isn't so much about knowledge of the game, it is the good players knowing what creates a fare an even rule set to accommodate the most balance possible in competitive play. I don't see any reason to bring up this point.

Just one finaly thing

Ike and zsuit cant be chaingrabed by dedede so im all good

Sorry to make you sad, but I've found versing Scrubs a lot in Ike vrs Dedede, when done perfectly you can't escape the CG. If you mess it up even by the tiniest little bit, then you can. Infact that was the first matchup Scrubs CG me 0-to-death on Bride of Eldin.

Redact: As a DK player I have no way to escape Dedede's chain throw on Eldin, if its kept as a counterpick then any Dedede player has basically a free win on me on that level unless I change character, and a stage that FORCES you to change characters should be banned.

That is just brilliant. Simply brilliant. Couldn't put it better myself. Eldin for BAN. YET TO SEE EVIDENCE OF WHY IT SHOULD NOT BE. We need to start making some of these changes!

 

[Darkwing SykeDuk]

Gogo japan style rules, fd and battlefield only.

 

[Sirias]

Agreed with Zac, lol.

This'll just be like items, I bet. Where 1 or 2 people go for a stage and hold onto small details to keep it alive.
Kthx, just let it go and take it like a man.
Ban the ghey stages.

Or Character Ban Dedede from Eldin, hahah, though that'd really make it unfair to people that play Dedede.
Ben. :C

 

[Sloth]

This'll just be like items, I bet. Where 1 or 2 people go for a stage and hold onto small details to keep it alive.
Kthx, just let it go and take it like a man.
Ban the ghey stages.

Of course a few people will hang onto their simplistic idealizations because they cannot fathom intellectual debate changing their own point of view.
Also a slight few will be fairly open to changing their perspective on gameplay rules.

In the end of course it will be up to the tournament director on how things are run. But we should try to make a starting point as soon as possible, so we know what to practice on in up and coming brawl tournaments.

I want to hear from some Sydney players!

 

[CAOTIC]

Should I just adopt the Melbourne ruleset then? Yes I will ban Eldin Bridge

 

[Jaz]

brawl banners?
seriously... should i even bother?

who would be interested in jaz made brawl banners?
i'm not making a thread to ask the question, so bleh your off topic nonsense

and i edited this 3 times

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

Corneria: Upsmash with Fushigisou and Lucas is like rapetown on this stage. If people are happy with that then go ahead.
Eldin: The chain throw only works one way. You have a lot of room to play with and the stage opens up in the middle often. Final Destination wasn't considered non-neutral despite Peach Marth Doc being able to 0-death chain people...so why are we turning soft for this game?
Port Town: My reasoning on this stage is due to the fact the stage falls away from beneath you at a very fast rate at a point. This is a set pattern sure...but its incredibly easy to take advantage of it as a character like Fox, who can otherwise run away until this part of the stage returns and use it to take all stock. Hax.
Originally the stage hazard stages that were banned were due to the overwhelming random factor of them, and the same is said for items. If you can see it coming, then it shouldn't be so terrible, and only adds to the depth of the game. If however we have a stage hazard such as stage movement where a character can't keep up like others can (like ICs stage in melee) then obviously its heavily biased and not something awareness can counter.
CBF other stages - just try to look at them from what point of view you can see I have from above.


"Neutral stages should be the most mundane stages.
Counter-picks should have little random bits but nothing that is ground breaking
Banned of course would be if it creates an almost unwinnable situation/extreme random"
I disagree. I think neutral should be what the name suggests - winnable by anyone with the same amount of inout (or as near as can be possible considering character differences). Melee "neutral stages were not neutral at all - and should have been called "the 6 top tier abuse stages: Falco Destination, Marthlefield, Peach's Dreamland, Sheik Story, PokeFox Stadium and Fountain of Lag.
Counter: Consider them counter stages for a reason - if you choose this you're planning to give yourself the edge based either on terrain advantage or on personal preference for strategy. In this way something like near edges, low ceilings, wide open spaces or something else advantageous though not game breaking is certainly a good idea. I would consider Dream Land 64, Mute City and Green Greens good examples from Melee. Lastly Banned stages I would consider things that are literally unwinnable, stupidly random or insanely time consuming as good examples of what I would consider ban-worthy.


Syke is right - stage discussion is pointless - hes only going to rig brackets in his favour and still lose to Tristan again anyway.

Go Scrubs with the hidden insult "I don't know what 'you're' on about" xD

Poor Syke and his failing + touching other males bare balls xD

 

[Sloth]

Shaz, there is a difference between Eldin and FD. In FD even if they CG you zero-to-death, you still have a chance to survive, and grab hold of the stage. Because there is edges. Eldin doesn't give you that chance. That is a distinction that is good enough to make it banned.

Sigh about what you consider melee neutrals to favor top-tiers. I'd like it if you actually argued what I said instead of repeating Redact.

And by your distinction Corneria should be counter-pick. Which is odd because on yours/cats list you considered it a neutral? I am all for Corneria being a counter-pick stage.

 

[undead_moose]

Syke is right - stage discussion is pointless - hes only going to rig brackets in his favour and still lose to Tristan again anyway.

I lol'd so hard

 

[Darkwing SykeDuk]

I should be more like shaz and just blame it on not trying and pretending to be something I'm not.

 

[Scrubs]

I wish you would stop talking about Melee Redact.

Go post in the Australian Competitive Melee Discussion Thread.

 

[Darkwing SykeDuk]

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

Sloth - FD = 2 edges, Eldin = 2 edges + Boar-rider...therefore Edlin is even more fair.
As for repeating Redact - it didn't happen. I only read what's quoted generally coz its where the dilemma is. Otherwise if what he said and what I said was the same it can only mean two things: 1 I am right, 2 Redact is a clever man lol
As for Corneria - you can't do the hax on the tail so much now. Whether or not the fact the upsmashes on those two is broken or not is up to you guys. IMO they're pretty strong, but it's not exactly unusual when comparing it to the difference in kill percents on say FD. Kills come fast, but its for everyone so it rounds out. I mentioned it because its one of the less clearcut ones, and shedding light on it might draw in some more opinions which Im certainly happy to hear.

Syke - Yup that's right. I can only hope you're as lucky as me with coming through with the goods at critical moments. Either your way or mine....it all showmanship...gotta love it xD

Lastly Ill say what I said to Cats when discussing stages. If a stage is banned from the start without good reason, it will never get a chance to be explored and prove itself good or bad. If we start with a higher number and work it down from there, we can rest assured we've made a good decision a few tourneys from now, and haven't overlooked anything.

 

[Redact]

on topic: i see why Eldin shouldnt be neutral, but i dont really see why it should be banned, yeah i know characters can be gimped due to dedede, but as shaz said, theres 0-death in melee, instead of banning Eldin, we should have the same system we had for the monthlies, make 1 stage of your choice un-pickable for a counter pick.
remember this too, we dont have some specific deadline for this, we can keep discussing over time, remember guys, we have played this game for a most of a month and a half, where as for melee, we had it for over 6 years, almost everything we are saying here is iffy, this is why we are debating. give eldin a chance, have a deep look into it, we will have a dead set decision on eldin AND the other flat land stages by the time rambo comes, too much on the line is there to let something iffy come along and wreck it


off topic: scrubs/syke, if you guys arent going to contribute, just leave, we want your insight and opinion on this topic, not your flame

 

[Darkwing SykeDuk]

Didn't Ben start the topic?

 

[Mic_128]

Hey, here's an idea!

Actually don't ban ANYTHING until some actual "tournaments" are held. With the exception of stages that have no argument about being good (DK falls, I'm lookin at you) stick all stages on. LEarn to adapt. Like Shaz said, some chars could chainthrow to death on FD, yes they "could" survive by grabbing an edge, but hey, I don't plan on whimping out. If someone can sucessfully pull of a chainthrow across the entire level (without getting blown up by the....ogre? are they ogres? By the bomb at any rate, gg to them. About the same as Fox shining someone across FD and off the edge.

Ban the complete OMFG stages, and the ones that are debatable (Eldin Bridge) leave on for a while to get more playtesting done on it.

And to those worry about edge back-throw camping, turn items on and let them camp then >:D

Or just do like we do in Melee and learn to approach them.

 

[Sloth]

Sloth - FD = 2 edges, Eldin = 2 edges + Boar-rider...therefore Edlin is even more fair.

Your forgetting that FD's static starting setting is two edges. While Eldin's starting setting is just flat with no edges.
If allowing Eldin, I can see this as an example. 'Hey I am versing dedede, I'll jump around and camp until the middle is destroyed, then camp the opposite side. But good thing I picked Pit because I have arrows, but if I get too close I am automatically dead from CG' Of course this is a hypothesis of a situation, but one that would most likely occur.

As for repeating Redact - it didn't happen.

Good, then we can get over melee + fairness of neutrals. Unless you want to read back and debate against what I've explained.

Onto:
Corneria is differently a picky one. If you look at what we currently have main-streamed as neutrals thus far and all agreed upon, it would probably fall-out of the neutral category.
I'd like to hear a few opinions on the stage rather then just pointless idiocy. I.e Syke.

Lastly Ill say what I said to Cats when discussing stages. If a stage is banned from the start without good reason, it will never get a chance to be explored and prove itself good or bad.

I'd say Corneria is best followed under this guideline. Give it a try in a few minor tournaments. It has the attributes of a counter-stage. I.E it can favor heavier characters against light ones, especially characters better at vertical kills. Also it has random elements, but the ships aren't exactly game-changing.

But its worth a try, as the level itself is pretty stagnet, and doesn't have anything incredibly broken within it.
However because of this, it would be a good stage worthy of discussion.

but as shaz said, theres 0-death in melee

The zero-to-death opinion in comparison to Eldin and FD is just ridiculous. I've had Scrubs zero-to-death me on Battlefield due to CG + good edge guarding - but I don't want to ban that. As there is a chance I can survive. Eldin's only chance is they screw up. There is nothing you can do. No DI, nothing.

If you look at melee on FD, certain zero-to-death CG's can only be performed at certain %percentages and you can still DI, you can still survive. Even if they did everything perfectly, you could still survive. That is the difference. You have more options viable to you in a CG on FD in melee. On Eldin in brawl against dedede, you have none. No options.

Can anyone else see the distinction or only me?

Actually don't ban ANYTHING until some actual "tournaments" are held. With the exception of stages that have no argument about being good (DK falls, I'm lookin at you) stick all stages on

Look, its all well to say 'Hey lets try out everything at a tournament and turn on hyrule temple etc.. so we can get a universal taste' but a tournament has money on the line, you don't want something gimp to allow the worse player to win. I'm not saying lets get a full list done right now, but if we at least express opinions on all fronts and argue, we can get a better indication to make the future tournament meta-game a better experience.

 

[Mic_128]

Look, its all well to say 'Hey lets try out everything at a tournament and turn on hyrule temple etc.. so we can get a universal taste' but a tournament has money on the line, you don't want something gimp to allow the worse player to win. I'm not saying lets get a full list done right now, but if we at least express opinions on all fronts and argue, we can get a better indication to make the future tournament meta-game a better experience.

Who said anything about money? I said "tournaments". As in a casual competition, not a huge Book out a hotel for all the interstate challengers. All I'm saying is the stages that everyone agrees on being banned, ban em, the rest, leave on. As has been said many times, it's better to leave something on for a while then ban it, than to ban something without giving it a decent chance to find potential counter stratagies and have a hasted opertunity, because generally if something's banned, there's no going back.

 

[Sloth]

I guess I misinterpreted what you said, but my point still remains. I've been referring to a local tournament as 'minor' and tournament as the general 'play-2-win' type. I.e Higher money on the line/possible interstate interest. -- Just to clear up some classifications that I make.

Also In my opinion, the more input about whether a stage should be Banned/Counter increases its likely hood to be more experimented with locally, rather then cast aside.

 

[Scrubs]

The problem I see with the 'why don't you just ban that stage when picking your ban' argument is that there are about 4 stages that are the same as Eldin; Mario Circuit, Shadow Moses, Green Hill Zone if i was playing Josh and he banned Eldin I would just choose Shadow Moses and do the same thing to him.

The problem is not with Eldin it is with walk off edges.

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

I agree with what is being said about walk off edges. As you mention however they're now more a part of the game than they were in Melee. Many stages have them - and winning on them can be as simple as a dangerous cat and mouse game at the edge won by a backthrow or forward tilt. Fortunately the variety of characters and the fact theyre much more distinct gives us all the option to select our strengths and weaknesses a lot more than something in Melee : Fox = strong, Mewtwo = weak.
If Dedede turns out a huge problem for you, choose a character that falls over from his grab. If Dedede turns out to limit the cast and stage selection greatly we could always ban his chain or even ban him if that doesn't work. I don't see the point of allowing one character to remove a good deal of otherwise good stages due to what he can do to some of the cast (if executed perfectly) is all.
I'm glad you guys tend to agree that banning stages like Corneria without giving it a shot is not the best option

PS Syke IS that Alfie thing from the Queensland smash thread.

 

[Mic_128]

Sorry to bring items back up, but got this message from Mr Silver.

There definitely where set spawn points in Melee, you could even make them visible with an action replay. Spawn times and order of which places they spawn I don't know though.

 

[Sloth]

I
If Dedede turns out a huge problem for you, choose a character that falls over from his grab.

Redact: As a DK player I have no way to escape Dedede's chain throw on Eldin, if its kept as a counterpick then any Dedede player has basically a free win on me on that level unless I change character, and a stage that FORCES you to change characters should be banned.

kthxbai. 10 characters