Australian Competitive Brawl Ruleset Discussion *Update: 15/05/08* *Spoilers*

[Cronos_Rainbow]

Well considering you guys all know that if Climbers grabbed in Melee it was very likely a KO, if Peach grabbed a fast faller, if anyone who could play Marth grabbed a fast faller, if Fox shined you against a wall, if Falco shined you on Corneria, if Marth/Roy got Falcon/Gdorf off the edge...
If you guys want to cry about the fact your rock cant beat paper perhaps you should be playing a game like Pong where strategy and counter measures aren't necessary. Learn to play more than one character, counter stage them back, or choose a cheap ******* who can beat anyone like Fox in Melee or Barrel Train in Double Dash.

 

[CATS]

ah i get all this reasoning!
so because in melee you can gimp with pichus f-smash at the edge of FD vs fast fallers then FD should be banned? or perhaps ban pichu?

to you who say that it requires the enemy to approach pichu, or for pichu to throw them back... well isn't that just a technicality? like dedede landing a grab on the opponent despite the fact he is one of the largest characters coupled with one of the most easily gimped characters in brawl recovery wise?

this brings up the next point, since dedede is so weak on any stage with an edge and all people need to do is knock him off and that's instant win. does this mean we ban all stages with edges because dedede can be cheaped? seriously, dedede's chaingrab can't work on every character, and he isn't the most mobile character nor is his range coupled with speed on anything but ftilt. if you're losing to dedede perhaps you should play a character that doesn't get chain grabbed until you work out how to punish dedede properly then go back to your current character. the problem isn't with the stages.

 

[Sloth]

Melbourne's argument:
Oh who cares if the stage can be broken by one character, or several camping near the edge who can CG to death. Just play a character with a definite advantage on the stage. Oh by the way it should be neutral(in reference to Eldin of course -Redact however has prompted it to counter-stage, not sure of your opinions tho.

Queensland's argument:
Due to the actual structure of the stage with only walk-off's means if you play the wrong character and versing a dedede, you'll be CG to death - Thus meaning the stage FORCES you to change character. Also a few other characters if camped near the edge could CG you zero-to-death. Along with restriction the possibility of game play in this stage, it should be seen as a banned.

Oh, and please quote and debate against some of what I've said. It feels as if I am repeating myself way to often, that is why I am not going to answer what I've already stated and haven't heard a defense against it.

In the end it is up to CAOTIC to decide what stages will be in the first brawl tournament at RAMBO. Seeing as we see the game at two differently angles, hopefully he can distance himself and make a reasonable judgment.

 

[Scrubs]

If Dedede turns out a huge problem for you, choose a character that falls over from his grab. If Dedede turns out to limit the cast and stage selection greatly we could always ban his chain or even ban him if that doesn't work. I don't see the point of allowing one character to remove a good deal of otherwise good stages due to what he can do to some of the cast (if executed perfectly) is all.

Characters are a much much more important than stages. Banning a character instead of banning stages is ridiculous!

I'm glad you guys tend to agree that banning stages like Corneria without giving it a shot is not the best option

We never said that Corneria should be banned. I just think it shouldn't be a neutral stage.

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

Scrubs thats an opinion - losing one character to maintain every stage (if need be not saying thats whats happening at all) is much better than losing all but FD just to keep one character.

I didn't use your name when saying that about Corneria - it's a statement in general so those who do wish to see it banned are covered. I also used the word like so to not mean Corneria or its position exclusively.

 

[CAOTIC]

I want a ruleset that encourages people to look outside the standard dimension and completely understand the game and all of its characters and stages, rather than to simply write things off based on premature speculation and gameplay. There is a wealth of dynamic behind many of the stages, which can only be discovered throug ample testing. Thus, by adopting a lassiez-faire approach to rulemaking, the stages for RAMBO will be the following.

(Further testing will be done in the March and April Ranbats before Rambo to accomodate for any changes necessary. We will be focusing on the most controversial stages as well as trying to implement the most flexible stage selection possible).

THE RAMBO RULESET - STAGES

Neutrals - A physically level playing field (as level as possible) tfor characters to show off their skill and adaptation to minor obstacles

Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium
Corneria
Bridge of Eldin

Counterpicks

Delfino Plaza
Luigi's Mansion
Mario's Circuit
Great Sea
Norfair
Frigate Orpheon
Battleship Halberd
Pokemon Stadium 2
Spear Pillar
Distant Planet
Skyworld
Pictochat
Shadow Moses Island
Electroplankton
Green Hill Zone
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Jungle Japes
Rainbow Ride
Onett
Brinstar
Green Greens

Banned

WarioWare
Mushroomy Kingdom
New Pork City
Donkey Kong Aracde/75M
Port Town
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Big Blue
Hyrule Temple
Rumble Falls
The Summit

I wish you all the best of luck in training on these stages.

 

[CATS]

same works in reverse for brawls FD
dedede is forced to switch character when vsing marth and that holds true for many characters, because marth is now super aerial hax.

FD favours aerially based fighters with good edge guards
eldin favours ground based fighters with good camping

people should just work out which style your character is and how to abuse it. also if anyone's near the edge trying to camp then they're at high risk of being KOed and that high risk high payoff style is a viable tactic that isn't game breaking.

on items btw since i never spoke about them... no :3
items are nearly always to be thrown and favour characters with greater mobility, and it's my opinion that there's no need to place greater emphasis on characters with higher speed. perhaps being an item ***** is what the designers had intended for sonic which is why he's somewhat lackluster lol

 

[undead_moose]

Hmmm luigis mansion banned? (If i remember)

Because you can tech off the walls? Not really not if you lure people to the roof/ top floor or bring the top floor to them

EDIT. Stage list was posted when i was posting >.< i feel dumb

 

[Scrubs]

Cool, glad someone settled that stage debate. We will have to wait until RAMBO is over to resume it.

 

[Sloth]

All I can say is GG. Rambo is going to be a disappointment in competitive play. But at least I am not going for the smash.

 

[Mic_128]

Don't act like you're a pro at brawl sloth, the "competative" scene's barely out of the womb.

 

[Sloth]

I know I'm not 'Pro' at brawl. I just don't see why the argument for a lot of these stages is based off adaption/character change. Why don't we put everything into counter-pick if we use that as our basis, because I can argue all stages using those points alone.

Sigh, it doesn't take a genius to work out what is best for competitive play and what will fail. That is across nearly all games that end up being taking seriously. I'm just voicing my opinion, and it is with great concern, but at least after the tournament we can go back to discussing.

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

*Sigh* Sloth maybe it does take a genius...maybe it takes two of them xD
Really though - theres no need to stop discussing now. Until the stages are actually experienced more there's little left to do but speculate. All I can say is let's not go by Melee where flat ground + two edges is considered neutral. I'm sure everyones faced a Peach or Falco on such a stage and certainly not felt as if they have a 'fair' chance to win.

BTW, if you put everything into counter pick, the game will almost certainly come down to a coin toss rather than a best of three match. If you want to travel from state to state tossing coins well..

Bringer mains Yoshi - yet he used Falcon to beat Tristan, and Fox to beat KO at Comrades. This is a sign of a clever tactical player. I know I can't beat KOs Peach 9/10 using Roy because I simply can't hope to win on counter picks period. Take advantage of counter stages, counter characters, blind picks, stage bans etc. and grow as a player.

If everyone decides it we can do a FD only Mario tourney and see who is the best technical player or whatever - but I don't think that has as much lasting appeal as a unique and clever game based as much on strategy as it is on ability.

 

[Sloth]

This is just an overall reference and not related to your last post as much Shaz. I do still believe we need to put more experience into a few stages, whether this should be done at RAMBO or not, is a different matter. But this is my side on how I am perceiving the argument on Eldin <3

The point I was trying to bring across is simple; following the logic you are using to argue your case to use a stage is 'Change character' + 'Adapt'. If we put these rules into place, we can effectively make every level a counter-stage.

This is where I see the dilemma, I don't want to refer to melee anymore, I've covered that and heard no argument against what I said. I play IC's, they get hurt the worst by counter-stages both in melee and the ones that we all agree on in brawl. I've always had to deal with that and pick up multiple counter-characters. Nearly everyone does regardless of stage options. Its because of counter-characters and character imbalances in the first place.

We can move past that. But at some point you have to narrow down and define how over-powered the 'character changes + meta-game changing adaption' (IE putting items on creates the game less about fighting and more generated on camping/using random items) actually become.

Short and simple, your using the same simple base argument that can be used for everything, and if you want to pursuit that argument it is only fare you allow all stages and heck, even items. I am trying to say that the stage -most notably Eldin atm- has many multiply things wrong with it, therefore should be forced at least at minimum a test run in counter-stage selection.
I am weighing my suggestions on what is wrong with the stage, and trying not to say how I can over-come it. The fact that you need to put fourth a argument about how-to-overcome it just shows the stage has a problem to begin with.

Now thinking back about what I just said. This could be turned into a very weird paradox. lol. Opinions are funny.

 

[Sirias]

Agreed. I really feel like getting into this but there are literally 2 people arguing against (Bryce and Ben) and 2 people for (Shaz and CATS... and sort of Mic), and you're all just going back-and-forth pretty much.
So as much as I want to be like Bryce and Shaz; saying the same things over and over, I think I'd rather not.

Phil, go away, you're not helping. (Arguing and also false accusations of flaming wtf? L2read)
Zac, go away, you're not helping either. <3 (Just stfu no one likes you)

There are viable points here, though...
Like how Dedede is really quite slow and easy to destroy and stuff, so why can't he get an advantage. Although the advantage you'd be giving Dedede is like... infinitely more in his favour than anyone elses.

And what's with all the talk about Melee in here? Mifkingod.
I saw references to Melee about 30 times, learn to stop using Melee as a foundation for your argument/s kthx?
Brawl, and I can't believe I'm saying this, isn't Melee, so stop referring to it.
Omg it's similar ya but it's not Melee (I won't be surprised if someone says something to this).

And I thought this was more of a discussion than an argument, it seems to be getting a little out-of-hand...
Should just make it easy and vote on stages rather than having a couple of people argue over and over about it/them.

I agree with Shaz saying that you should really use more than just one character, since really there're always counter-pick characters, and you'll have to get used to that and counter-pick with someone else, no?
Or just be a campy player and if Eldin is usable and someone does use Dedede just run away and use projectiles.
It would be used as a counter-pick, but then someone would just use a character that would counter-pick the stage and character completely. How pointless is that? Pointless.

Bah.
I'm gonna get into this again, cbf.

Too much reading as well. =/

Bryce and David = <3 Kyuuuuut~
And I wub the Wolf in David's signature and that's how I was going to draw him, with a coat/jacket thing! As I usually draw people... :'C
Now I will have to change it or else it will look like I copied that picture, lame. >:C

 

[undead_moose]

Hello?............ Yes........... Yes.............. Then its agreed i wont let the crazy woman near the phone again


I dont understand how people are going to enjoy this game if they dont main more then one character.... I mean ike is indeed sexy and every other character should be banned but i also have zsuit incase i need speed...

Eliminating a course because people have a disadvantage against one character seems silly... adapt or gtfo imo.

 

[Sirias]

But that being said, why do people need to be forced to play more than one character? Nor is it that someone will enjoy a game more or less from the number of characters he/she chooses.
Aren't games supposed to be played fairly to really to be as 'fun' and 'skilled' as possible? Though, as I said, every character has an advantage/disadvantage over another. So the other way to play as 'fairly' as possible would probably be to ditto on the most universally boring stage (FD or something).

And lol, Nick? I think being able to Zero-to-death isn't 'that minor' of an advantage to not voice as being ridiculous to be accepted as a viable choice for a stage.
Even Ben, who plays Dedede, finds it a wrong choice for a neutral/counter stage.
How can you adapt to dying no matter what? You can't.
Well, in a way you can, but you do need to change to a character that falls over from his D-throw so you can have the 'possibility' of rolling out of it. Although there's also the possibility of the Dedede player to screw up the chain grab.
And also you're eliminating a course so that other characters can play, isn't that better?
If you keep in Eldin and someone played Dedede everyone would be forced to choose a character that can't be Zero-to-deathed, I'm not sure how many that is, but I know it's more than a few.

BOO!
I need to stfu but I know I won't.
Someone tell me to.

 

[undead_moose]

But that being said, why do people need to be forced to play more than one character? Nor is it that someone will enjoy a game more or less from the number of characters he/she chooses.
Aren't games supposed to be played fairly to really to be as 'fun' and 'skilled' as possible? Though, as I said, every character has an advantage/disadvantage over another. So the other way to play as 'fairly' as possible would probably be to ditto on the most universally boring stage (FD or something).

And lol, Nick? I think being able to Zero-to-death isn't 'that minor' of an advantage to not voice as being ridiculous to be accepted as a viable choice for a stage.
Even Ben, who plays Dedede, finds it a wrong choice for a neutral/counter stage.
How can you adapt to dying no matter what? You can't.
Well, in a way you can, but you do need to change to a character that falls over from his D-throw so you can have the 'possibility' of rolling out of it. Although there's also the possibility of the Dedede player to screw up the chain grab.
And also you're eliminating a course so that other characters can play, isn't that better?
If you keep in Eldin and someone played Dedede everyone would be forced to choose a character that can't be Zero-to-deathed, I'm not sure how many that is, but I know it's more than a few.

BOO!
I need to stfu but I know I won't.
Someone tell me to.

stfu noob as stated before somewhere people could be chained throw to death in melee.... Altho as you said should stop comparing this to melee which i agree with....

Sigh i cant argue needs more ike

 

[Scrubs]

I don't play Dedede any more but I still think it shouldn't be allowed.

People shouldn't be 'forced' to change character.

You can say 'learn more than one character etc....' but that isn't fair. People play characters because they like them. They shouldn't be scared of using their favorite character because an unfair stage is included.


Oh and I know I said that the RAMBO stage list was fine with me..... But I just noticed SPEAR PILLAR IS STILL ON THE LIST.

That stage is terrible. I mean I am all for experimenting but...

- Slo-Mo
- Reverse Controls
- Upside down stage + gravity
- Giant Beams

No way....

 

[CAOTIC]

All I can say is GG. Rambo is going to be a disappointment in competitive play. But at least I am not going for the smash.

Now now, I can't have someone dissing Rambo; I'm not exactly sure what's going on with your attitude (and many others in this thread) either, it's not the Sloth I know and love.

There should be a lot of good news from my previous post. Perhaps you've overlooked it or I need to further open it up. So allow me:

- I've mentioned the most controversial stages will be paid particular attention in the next 2 Monthlies in Melbourne. That's 2 REAL tournaments, where we can actually test the validity of the stages in a tournament environment. In many ways I agree with you that it should be pretty easy to figure out what is neutral and what is not. But i've decided to be safe and assess it properly before Rambo. There have been strong cases against Edlin and to a lesser extent, Castle Seige and Corneria. So you can rest assured I will test these stages and come up with my own independent assessment.

- So between now and Rambo, there could be anywhere between 6 and 9 neutral stages. It's inevitable that there will be some stages your style or your character does not agree too. That's why theres this thing called a Stage Cancel (there's also a Stage Ban as an added bonus). It's very useful in situations like this where there must be a stage in a neutral group that you don't like. It is ideal to have a variety of neutral stages, because it diversifies the neutral set to ensure the overall flavour of the stages does not bias a few characters with a few particular traits. You know you have a problem with the neutral set when someone's style agrees to it all, when on the other hand, there's someone's style which does not. The game is inherently diverse, so in order to acheive the best set of neutrals, they can't simply all be stages that are flat and have side pits - the balance comes in a trustworthy mix of stages (within reason) to cater for as many characters as possible on your selection screen.

- I don't really like the term 'Neutral Stage.' It implies that there are stages that are actually fair (or are as close as it gets to fair). This is unfortunately nothing more than a myth. Neutral stages only share the following criteria:
- They are (generally) physically flat and provide ample space for a player to demonstrate their technical and mental ability
- Their dimensions are within an accepted convention (i.e. not excessively large, or not excessively small, but still provide variances in stage sizes)
- There are minor or zero obstacles

Under this critertia, the neutral selection for Rambo is for most part sound. The only ones that may not be, are the three I previously mentioned. If for whatever substantial reason they are too far out of context, they will surely be removed. But remember what I am trying to implement - a diverse set of neutrals for all characters.

- This thread was created with the intention of distinguishing Australian Smashers by adopting a ruleset that is relevant to our beliefs. Luckily for us, we have strong differences in opinion, which demonstrates how complex and diverse compeittive Brawl actually is, and also shows how we not not mere Lemmings in the Smash World. With this in mind we should all be fairly liberal on our decision making and our opinion making too. There's no right or wrong answer here, its all a difference of opinion guided by our own prespectives on how competitive smash should be played.

And here is mine. You only get really good if you play on more stages. It's not about learning how to counterpick or stage cancel/ban. It's about pulling apart the entire game as a measure of your overall experience. If you have solved a problem that noone else had dared to, you're now THAT much better.

For someone that doesn't have the game, that is the best I can do, and I hope you can trust me for any decisions I will make in the future, without simply writing off my own tournament.

if anyone has additional stages they want me to *****, just ***** and i'll kindly look into it for you

 

[Mic_128]

Slo-mo and gravity's fine, but the rest makes the stage horrible. Flip as you're returning and you miss the ledge, ugh.

And last I checked no one's making anyone change. If they can beat the character, fine, but if they can't, best to learn more than one. For example, if you're a really good Mewtwo, you're not likely to succeed against a Falcon in a competative match. You're not forced to change at all, but if you want to actually win, you need to change, especially if you're just going to be one character and get counterpicked by everyone all the time.

EDIT: There could be more neutrals than that Cao. Go go stage editor!

 

[Scrubs]

Just to clear something up. I don't want to cut and prune the amount of stages we can play on until we are just playing FD. I want as much variety as possible. Counter picking stages is one of the best facets of the game and I love it.

Yeah I know Mic. That's why I wrote it as 'forced'.

The problem is that the Stage is the only thing that puts the match up out of balance.

Mewtwo vs. Marth or CF in Melee was just a bad match up. So if you wish to win you should change or not it's up to you. This was the case on any stage in the game.

DK(who cannot escape D3's chaingrab) vs D3 is an entirely different situation. On a neutral stage, a stage that does not advantage either character the match up is reasonably even. However as soon as the D3 player picks Eldin, Mario Circuit etc... the match up completely favors D3.

That is what I meant by 'forced'.

 

[CAOTIC]

Don't worry Scrubs, I've taken your opinion on board. I'm genuinely concerned about the possibility that Eldin may be fit as a neutral for many characters and matchups - a lot of focus about moving Eldin to a Coutnerstage has been pinned to a single character and a few of his matchups. I want to find out how the stage works for everyone else, because it's a very narrow angle smashers are taking with Eldin at the moment. There will always be reasons why a stage shouldn't be neutral - even the most neutral of neutrals. But if the impact isn't widespread, I'm more than happy to let Edlin settle as a neutral and let the minorities utilize the stage cancel if they get the stage on random selection - a 1 in 9 chance? I like their odds!

 

[Scrubs]

I'm not stressed about it. It doesn't really bother me whether it is neutral or not. It is a fair stage apart from D3, Ice Climber chain throw.

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

Scrubs - saying people shouldn't be forced to change character. Noone ever sits with a gun to your head saying you may not play as X character. Additionally, Mewtwo had the advantage over Falcon on a good deal of stages.....mind you these were generally stages such as Game and Watch and Great Bay.

Spear Pillar has a very limited amount of 'luck' based interferences, and is more about a players ability to adapt. If you feel you're an adaptive player more than your opponent take them here.

Why on earth should we once again favour the players who can do great combos again when we have the perfect opportunity here to pitch our real skills against each other? I know from having played against a great deal of you that there are a lot of players who didn't shine as much as they could have in melee due to lack of technical prowess or due to characters choice.

There is no such thing as a neutral stage - period. I covered this already with the example from melee. I could do the same with streetfighter using stage widths, tennis using court surfaces or battlefields using the position of the sun and direction of the wind.

 

[Mic_128]

direction of the wind.

Ban green green!

Incidently, disapointed they made all the apples food instead of food or projectile.

 

[Scrubs]

Scrubs - saying people shouldn't be forced to change character. Noone ever sits with a gun to your head saying you may not play as X character.

Mic said exactly the same thing. Then I explained what I meant by forced.

Of course no one is holding a gun to anyone's head.

There are such things as neutral stages.

Melee has nothing to do with Brawl. But since it seems that that is how we make points in this thread. I will aquiesce and talk in Melee terms.

Top tiers did better on neutrals because they are better characters.

The example everyone uses is Peach on Dreamland 64. Yes she lived for an obscenely long time on that stage. However so did Jiggs, M2, Samus, Pikachu etc.

WHY?

These characters have good recoveries. This is not due to the stage. It is a inherent advantage these characters have. The stage doesn't give Peach and advantage. No matter what stage you are on, Peach has a great recovery.

You may say that characters with great recoveries have the upper hand on this stage. And to a certain extent that is true. However, It does not completely change an entire match up. Peach has a slightly better chance at beating Fox on DL64 but the match up is still the same. Fox should win.

I have already explained how a stage that at the moment is random (Eldin) can completely change an entire match up.

Stages that change match ups in such a way should be a counter pick at least.

 

[Sirias]

Lol to everyone referring to Melee.

I think with what David said about making stage cancel/bans that Eldin should be a neutral, then.
If someone picked Dedede, then instant Eldin ban, there goes his biggest advantage (to certain characters).
So that's enough about Eldin.

Corneria doesn't seem to be much of a problem, I mean the lasers are irritating but they're nothing hard to evade and the low ceiling, so? So are the sides. And anyway everyone has an up attack, so why can't every just use that to their advantage? Might make the match go by quicker, yey. C:

I think we define Neutral as 'easy', lol.
Or not 'we' but 'everyone'.
If there're obstacles (at all) it's not so 'easy'.
Those with obstacles it doesn't really change the meta-game, I wouldn't think, you're still trying to kill the opponent but you have a few things to look out for, wouldn't that sort of make you a better player if you were able to beat someone on that stage 'and' survive the cruel and evil things thrown at you?
Maybe, though at the same time you could lose because of it. But again, if you 'don't' lose to it then, yay. But I guess people would john about losing on a stage like that.
Though people john about how (Melee reference) Peach was on Dreamland. Toughen up and be a man, huzzah.

Gogo character cancel/ban. XD Best rule ever.
If you lose a match you can cancel/ban a character, pro.
Joking, by the way.

And Shaz, LOL!
Shining was my major part of winning. XD
Now that Fox's shine is so less 'awesome' it'll be harder to pull off, but maybe I'll try giving it a shot.

And to do with forcing. No one's forced to change character.
If you play DK and the other person plays Dedede and it's on Eldin, either cancel/ban or live with it, I guess. Or choose another character. You'll just need to play careful, no? Extra careful, so as not to be owned.

Anyway the 'stage discussion' will probably be resolved after RAMBO and such, I would assume, with everyone getting a taste of the stages they'll all have their opinions ready to voice. C:

And that's what I thought, David, Bryce was getting to into it and getting a little out-of-character/hand.

 

[Scrubs]

Yeah I'm over Eldin. Counter not Neutral thats the last thing I'll say.

Let me throw this idea out there. In regards to banning stages. Because of the large number of playable stages we could allow 2 stage bans, instead of 1.

 

[Redact]

idea of 2 stage bans and 2 strikeouts on random or maybe something like that is an awesome idea, i support that too

 

[CAOTIC]

LOL Kaz i managed to write a long-winded post that didn't refer to Melee. THAT WAS ****ING HARD. thanks for the idea scrubs, i thought of that too, i'll do the testsies in the Ranbat and see how it goes

 

[undead_moose]

i'll do the testsies....

Im sure you will


Takeing things out of context is fun

 

[Mic_128]

I actually read that as testicles >.<

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

OMG Scrubs I give up - think what you will. I don't use Melee because I think it's the same game. I use it because it's a common analogy we can all relate to. If you want me to use Bushido or something I could but chances are you'd have no idea what I'm on about. Otherwise I'm not going to bother conversing further with you, as you're narrow minded and misinformed along with a nice dose of stubborn. Nothing personal, but it's taxing me trying to explain to you when it's evidently impossible. Like a baby you learn to cry before you learn to read - and such is your biggest fault in this thread.

Stage cancel Eldin - ban Spear Pillar. Crisis averted.

Sirias - The stage Bans and Cancels were being taken into account by Cats and myself all along. We didn't just sit down and pull stage names from a hat. With our full attention to detail we devised a stage system that would benefit everyone as fairly as possible as well as allow for all characters and styles to have a variety of positively and negatively favouring stages. Lol - don't worry I'm guilty of more than my fair share of Fox shine cheaping so I totally understand xD

2 bans is a bad idea - as it limits the chance to counter stage a character tremendously. I'm DK: I get a good random - banned. I get another one I also like...Banned. Next one and it's bad for me...OK I lose. So i choose a stage that will favour me with close edged - wait I can't it's banned! OK No worries there's another one I can stand a chance on....oh.. banned also. You can guess the result from there.

KO throw his sexuality into question deeper and deeper with almost every post he makes on the boards doesn't he? xD

 

[Scrubs]

OMG Scrubs I give up - think what you will. I don't use Melee because I think it's the same game. I use it because it's a common analogy we can all relate to. If you want me to use Bushido or something I could but chances are you'd have no idea what I'm on about. Otherwise I'm not going to bother conversing further with you, as you're narrow minded and misinformed along with a nice dose of stubborn. Nothing personal, but it's taxing me trying to explain to you when it's evidently impossible. Like a baby you learn to cry before you learn to read.

Chill out mate......

I was never conversing with you, I was simply stating my opinion.

Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean that I am narrow minded. That is a pretty arrogant way to view this situation.

Everyone has different opinions, that is the way the world works. Believing that everyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong/narrow minded/unintelligent, will get you no where. I think that you should have learned that already. This way of viewing the world shows a low level of intellectual maturity.

I don't think 2 stage cancels would be a good idea, however being able to ban 2 stages out of the list of counter picks would be nice.

 

[Sirias]

Kaz. Why is it KAZ?!?!?! YOU FREAKIN' AUSTRALIANS! D: <<<
<3 Wubj00zwifmoufnewae.

And, wow, for once, I didn't read something the way is wasn't originally intended.
I.E - Testies. :D I feel proud.

And saying 'everyone' is easier than saying 'Ben, Shaz, CATS... and whoever else, don't remember'. :D Not 'much' easier, but I'm lazy. Don't worry, I know you wouldn't abuse Melee like that, Cao-wao. <3 (weow, that's almost like ciao-wao, bow-wow (lol, personal quote)).

Ben, if you don't want anyone to say anything bad at you 'again' then you should really just not respond to people saying that. Of course you're standing up for yourself but saying things like: "shows a low level of intellectual maturity" won't really get you anywhere.
Not saying that you 'didn't' want him to say that but I can assume you'd 'rather' not have things like that said to you.
Though it's partially Shaz's fault for actually saying it in the first place.
ANYWAY.
I think we shouldn't take this so seriously.
Seriously enough, but not so much that you start mouthing off at each other.

I don't know about '2' bans... I think 1 is enough, really. At least 1 for each person. If you do 2 bans for each person that's like 4 stages gone out and out. And more than likely 1 of them will always be Eldin. Ghey.
Maybe 1 each, if that's what you meant.

Eldin for counter-pick sounds good.
But I think it can still be a neutral.
Although that STUPID ogre/orc thing, tf is with that.
Testing for win, kgo Dave, I believe in you. <3

Hahah, Shaz, you didn't see the team matches (or really singles matches) that I do with Fox. Mainly shine-spiking. So easy to do EXCEPT for when you miss against a Falco and the Falco gets back to the ledge and dairs you before you can recover resulting in your loss in a tournament.
BRYCE I WON'T FORGET THAT!
FUDGE YOU FOR DODGING IT! D: <<<

 

[Darkwing SykeDuk]

The rules aren't concrete. If both players agree to having a stage banned completely for there set they can ban it, theres nothing stopping you from playing all your matches on 1 map if you both agree to it.

 

[Scrubs]

Kasssssssssss, people shouldn't talk like that in this thread, I had to set the record straight. Plus I was absolutely right.

4 seems like a large number, but it is 4 out of 22 stages. That leaves 18 left.

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

As fun as it would be to insult the state of each other imperfect brains endlessly let's be satisfied with what bashing on each other we've done now and let the Eldin issue rest. I assure you it's been deeply contemplated and all angles have been considered. Let's try to focus on new things and ratify them rather than an attempt at rewriting history.

As for the Peach recovery being there regardless - that's the point. It's removed only if she's killed - and that is where stages like Yoshi Story, Green Greens etc. play a large role. I don't mean to upset you guys by allowing more stage-types you're all so used to, but the fact is that with a new game and a new set of rules comes change. Look at the adapting to more than just the 'suspended-platform' stage as a new opportunity to learn, experience and have fun. If you don't like a certain stage heavily - cancel or ban it. It's what they're there for. If you can be awesome on Eldin as Dedede - by all means use that until one day it's decided too cheap and we remove it (if it even comes to be).

Next issue to hear some opinions on: Zero Suit Samus armor shards.
Personally I find them to be easy enough to catch, reflect, dodge etc. and rather enjoy the extra element they bring into the start of a match. They aren't superior in strength or knockback and are only slightly in ZSS favour with start location. Views please?

Restart on Cresselia if it's in the middle at stage start on Spear: This bum is the worst of the stage pokemon on this stage. It's damage is immense and the ability to avoid is rather limited. I prefer to see the stage restarted in the event this is the present pokemon. It shouldn't be a huge bother since the chances of this stage showing up are rather slim - and Cresselia showing up is only a fraction of that once again. If you think it's just as fair as the other mon say so - otherwise it's our view (Cats also) that this one is a little too much to deal with.

I'm also open to discussion on Delfino. It's not terribly biased - rather not much more than Eldin. The characters its bias is towards however already have a great strength on a few of the other neutrals. I wouldn't be distraught if it made a place as neutral personally, as it's probably the nearest to it of anything I mentioned not as neutral so far.

Feel free to discuss.

 

[Redact]

melee had 29 stages
6 neutrals, 8 counter picks and 15 banned = 14 viable stages (singles)

brawl has 41 stages (this is with rambo ruleset)
9 neutral, 21 counter picks and 11 banned = 30 viable stages

all i did was look at the two, 1 strikeout still maybe, but 2 bans imo