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[Bragi]

n_n Yeah, well, I changed it.

Q: Is dash -> down C-Stick > Up on control stick + Z really the best method for boost smashing with Wolf?



>_>

I use DACUS a lot, and I just went to a tournament last night in which I used it often, effectively, and consistently, so I'm not just theorizing, and I use the A button, not the Z button. It's a timing thing, too, of course, but I find that the A button makes it a lot easier. Sure, it's inconvenient to have to make the "spider hand" to reach it, but I definitely find that I get less failed attempts with A. Maybe it's just personal preference, and maybe it has something to do with my control scheme--I set the C-Stick to Attack, not Smash. I don't know.

 

[Sirus109]

thats weird....i got confused just reading it...but hey its ur personal preference

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

i kno we r discussing mods but lets not forget that n a way we r all mods on this forum....no one knows more then someone else since we r all learners....so people have more info then others but besides that...if your here and u came to learn and u have input well that makes u family on this forum right??

Mod=/=SBR members. Mods patrol forums, SBR members are the smart ones lol. And technically the WBR members do know more than the other members since they are discussing new/more advanced stuff that hasn't been released yet but will be soon.

We all know that Wolf may b seen as a underrated character but we know that his skills r top-notch and even tho i dont play in tourneys...i still scared the hell out of my friends when i use him...haha as soon as do im seen as the on point threat.

Wolf isn't really underrated he's just not that great. He's a good scaring character because most people outside of EC have never played a good one. I think if a good one emerged in the Texas area it could get his tourney placings up.

 

[Sirus109]

Mod=/=SBR members. Mods patrol forums, SBR members are the smart ones lol. And technically the WBR members do know more than the other members since they are discussing new/more advanced stuff that hasn't been released yet but will be soon.



Wolf isn't really underrated he's just not that great. He's a good scaring character because most people outside of EC have never played a good one. I think if a good one emerged in the Texas area it could get his tourney placings up.

Well thanks for the info...but idk any members of that type...nor have i seen them on this forum...nor do I know what each one does....im pretty sure there r ppl out there wit better knowledge but if they r not here then its up to us to get the Q + A 's done right??

 

[Vorguen]

You can semi-scar through any custom stage as far as I know. I have about 3-4 custom stages I use on occasion and it works on all.

When it comes to mindgames those come naturally.. you really don't read about them and incorporate them. Just know your reflector is a really good tool for that though since the initial frames of it make you invincible so it's like a "counter attack" type of move.

Play around with it, practice and you come up with stuff.

 

[Sirus109]

You can semi-scar through any custom stage as far as I know. I have about 3-4 custom stages I use on occasion and it works on all.

When it comes to mindgames those come naturally.. you really don't read about them and incorporate them. Just know your reflector is a really good tool for that though since the initial frames of it make you invincible so it's like a "counter attack" type of move.

Play around with it, practice and you come up with stuff.

Wat do u mean by the invincible frames??

Can someone explain that??

 

[Vorguen]

When you use your reflector (B-Down) There is a little bit of delay from the moment you click B-down and the time when it does damage.

If you don't understand frames lets say

When you click B-down it will take a few fractions of a second from when you clicked it for the move to actually cause damage to the opponent.

From the time you click it until the damage is caused you are "invincible"

Literally this means if Ike is doing a Fully charged Forward Smash in your face at 200% you will literally be completely unharmed.

So, how would you apply this?

Well lets say you are in the air and landing near a grounded opponent, you can land on him and reflector. If he Up smashes or U-tilts, you won't get hit and your reflector will hit him, then you can follow up quickly with a F-smash, F-tilt, D-smash... you get the point.

 

[Sirus109]

OOOOOO got it....great explanation

 

[Vorguen]

OOOOOO got it....great explanation

Thanks

If you need anything else ask here or Private message me, I don't mind going into detail.

 

[Chileno4Live]

Hey guys.

As you can see, i main Fox now. Well recently, i've been playing Wolf, and i sorta like him. I do have some questions, as i dunno if i should make him my main.

1. Is he any better than Fox or Falco? And why?

2. How do you space properly with Bair. And how to i SHFFBair? I can do those in RAR, though it won't FF

3. Is his recovery better than Falco and Fox?

 

[Vorguen]

To #1:

Everything is up to way too much interpretation. What level of play are you in?

Generally it is considered for Falco to be the best, then Wolf, then Fox. However that is within the very best of tournament go-ers.

Why? Wolf's recovery is very bad. He is easy to gimp. He has a great punishing game though so for intermediates and casual Brawl players he may very well be the best character in the game. Of course when you take it up into professional play he is much more limited.

Falco is more versatile with a lot of options, but he requires a lot of advanced techniques and is much more difficult to play than Wolf.

Fox is very similiar to Falco, except without awesome lasers, with better smashes, and no chaingrab. He however is generally considered the worse since he has least options, and is completely annihilated by Pikachu and Sheik in gross ways

Well just practice your spacing. I really can't explain to you how to "space". Try doing your b-air on the rise of your SH towards your enemy and then move Wolf back away before he lands. And yes Wolf can FF his SH b-airs.

I would say when it comes to Recovery, Wolf is the worst of the three. His B-up is completely gay.

 

[Sirus109]

Well said....

I main Wolf...Wolf is like the balance of Falco and Fox....Falco is the better one in tourney play but if ur not a tourney type person (like myself) i would recommend Wolf...there are not to main Wolf players out there (at least I dont think)

Wolf is a pretty strong fighter and has good smashes all-around. He has a blaster which I think is better then Falco since it can stun and stop u but its not as far range....in addition u can hit foes wit the blaster...

Wolf is goood character...a straight up brawler in my opponent...However, his down fall is his recovery...very bad but with a little advance tech u can manage....but mastering his recovery just takes practice

B-air is the best but find a way to make it ur own....a good tip is use ur reflector...as its better then both falco and fox...it deals damage and wat Vorguen told me...makes him invincible for a couple seconds

 

[shikamaru526]

Where can I watch someone play Toon Link really well? (I am a real visual type of person)
Sorry if there is somewhere else to ask this. And Thanks in advance.

 

[Sirus109]

Where can I watch someone play Toon Link really well? (I am a real visual type of person)
Sorry if there is somewhere else to ask this. And Thanks in advance.

Well this is the Wolf Forums...not Toon Link

Try the Toon Link section in Brawl character discussion

 

[Evenkor]

The Reflector is a big upside I see over Fox and Falco; there are multiple ways to abuse a few frames of invincibility - if an opponent is using a laggy move on you, reflector will block the hit and stun them enough to combo into an f-smash. Also, his Blaster makes it easier to force approaches, usually aerial. It makes your opponent approach you.
I'm not good enough at spacing B-Air to do it consistently, let alone teach others.
His recovery is better in my opinion because, although it sucks a**, it doesn't have huge start-up lag. And without the start-up lag, you aren't subject to people attacking you before you start up.

 

[ArcPoint]

Reflector does not combo into Fsmash.

 

[AssaultX]

Reflector does not combo into anything.

Fix'd. The least you can hope for out of a shine is a jab, but even that is pretty unlikely. The shine would give you a bit of breathing room, at best.

 

[Ishiey]

Reflector does not combo into anything besides jab, and dsmash when the opponent is hit in the air.

Fix'd again... at least, I think this is right. But combos aren't really the point of the shine, it's to reset bad situations and get out of conbos.

 

[SelfPossessed]

I apologize for the wall of text that follows. I'm a noob at Smash and at Wolf and therefore have quite a few questions. I realize that it's long, but if you can answer even SOME of my questions (please indicate the question number but don't quote it), I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance. Without further ado...

1) Jabbing

What's the best way to jab?
a) Holding A counters enemy spotdodges, but makes jab canceling really difficult
b) Tapping A makes jab canceling easy, but is terrible against spotdodge

2) Up B Bouncing

On occasion, I've seen wolf move left/right during the startup frames of his Up B. As in, before he starts kicking, he sort of floats in a direction. This has saved me from a few SDs before.

What is it called? How do I perform it consistently? Is it useful at all?

3) Fair

a) I'm rarely ever in range for a retreating Fair as Bair can be done from a bit further away. However, I need a rising aerial that works against the shorter characters that rising SH Bair will miss. Fair works, but I'm worried about its safety.

As I'm always out of range for a retreating Fair, I've begun to SH Fair while DIing towards my opponent, then DIing away before I touch the ground. Wolf can't reverse his momentum like Wario, but he does retreat a decent distance. Is this distance enough to be considered safe on shield? If not, what rising SH options do I have against shorter characters?

b) On a related note, I've noticed that you can SH Fair and FF a bit after the peak of Fair. Wolf lands with a larger dust cloud and without the entire ground lag animation. Does this recover any faster than SH Fair without the FF?

c) Are there any guaranteed combos with Fair? According to training mode, at certain percents Fair -> Jab combos and at other percents Fair -> Utilt combos. However, I don't know how DI and sDI affects this. Is there anything useful?

4) Approaching (preferably Bair)

Sometimes I need to move towards my opponent. I usually rely on FH double Bair to space myself, but I don't want to get too predictable.

I then looked at what other options I had, but I need some advice on them.

a) I can approach with SH. However, if I DI too much towards my opponent, Bair becomes unsafe even IF I perfectly space it as he slides towards the opponent after the FF. I then started to SH towards the opponent a little, DI backwards, then Bair without FF just before I hit the ground so it auto cancels. I don't FF as I'm hoping the extra time in the air will give him more time to retreat. Wolf no longer slides forward after he hits the ground and he does move forward overall, but I'm not sure if this is safe on shield. Verification would be awesome.

b) There's walking. However, as I think Wolf's tilts are garbage, walking doesn't seem to give him the same benefit that it gives Marth (Marth has a godly dtilt and his DB).

c) There's running, which means tripping. That and Wolf's dash attack leaves much to be desired.

5) Combating Perfect Shield

Against taller characters, FH double Bair can be aimed at the opponent's head or feet, which also messes up perfect shield timing. The problem I have is against shorter opponents.

Against shorter opponents, I tend to SH more than I FH. However, SH telegraphs when the Bair will come out. Opponents just have to make sure they are in range of Wolf's Bair, then shield when Wolf reaches the peak of his jump.

Is there any way to punish opponents for doing this? For example, is SH Bair FF (Wolf kicks at the peak of his jump, then FF late enough to just barely hit the opponent) a different enough timing from SH FF Bair (the typical one) to stop perfect shielding? Or is there another option I can use?

6) It's an In-Fight!

So my opponent is now too close for comfort (think too close to safely try for a retreating SH FF Bair). what do I do? I have a tendency to get overly aggressive in my walling and therefore become predictable in that I'll immediately try to respace myself. This oftentimes means missed punish opportunities or in the worst case, I eat damage.


The following is what I tend to do (though the most common is dash away). Which options are better to prioritize?

Back towards enemy:
a) Dash away

Facing enemy:
a) Jab cancels
b) Shield
c) Spotdodge
d) Retreating Fair (rare, almost never)
e) Dash away

7) I'm trapped!

So I'm walling with my bairs and my opponent has managed to get my back towards the edge. What do I do? If I keep walling, they will get too close and I'll have to rely on a close ranged fight. What's my best option?

My usual options are:
a) SHAD through them
b) FH Bair then AD behind them
c) SH Fair through them
d) Roll through them
e) Go into a close ranged game (jab, shield, spotdodge)

Which ones are safer to do? Which ones should I avoid?

8) To wall or not to wall

I play Wolf because I love walling with Bair. If it wasn't for that, I wouldn't play him. That being said, I notice that I sometimes stay in the air too often. As in, sometimes the opponent will leave themselves open, perfect for a Fsmash punish had I been grounded. Note that I can't always Bair punish as if I'm retreating in the air, I can't immediately reverse my momentum like Wario can.

What is a good balance between walling and well...standing still? Note that when walling, I usually try to keep myself close enough to Fsmash but far enough to safely do a retreating SH FF Bair.

9) OoS

After spotdodging an enemy attack, I usually jab, fsmash, or dsmash depending on the situation. However, after shielding I'm not sure what to do.

I've listed a couple options that I've used occasionally, but I'm not sure which ones I should be using and which ones I shouldn't.

a) Shieldgrab for speed and grab armor
b) Usmash for damage, assuming they can't DI the second hit reliably
c) Retreating Fair
d) Jab
e) Dsmash (rare and only for the kill)
f) Fsmash (if they're out of range for other options)

The first three can be done without losing frames from dropping the shield. The last three can't. Which ones should or should I not use and when?

10) Dthrow Tech Chase

I almost never deal damage after a dthrow as I'm not sure how to tech chase. I usually blaster or DACUS, but those rarely land.

What do I do when...
a) The opponent techs into a standing position
b) The opponent gets up normally
c) The opponent rolls behind you
d) The opponent rolls away from you
e) The opponent does a get up attack

I lack the reaction time to identify a specific action and to punish it, so I'm relying on prediction alone. Therefore, I'm hoping for 2-3 different moves that cover all 5 options. 2 is ideal, 3 is usable, 4+ makes tech chasing all but worthless for me.

11) Juggling with Uair

Uair is a great aerial. I just can't figure out how to hit with it. Uair has given me so much trouble that I've begun relying on Shine against opponents above me. Shine works, but Uair offers more damage and a second chance at a juggle.

Therefore, I'd like tips on how to get used to its speed and range. In particular, I want to learn to juggle after landing a Fair as that's my most common vertical launcher. Should I wait until they reach the right distance then do a rising FH Uair? If they airdodge, follow with a FF Uair/Bair/Blaster depending on their DI? Or should I learn to jump earlier and Uair at the peak of the jump?

12) YOU MUST RECOVER

Wolf's recovery sucks, we all know it. I need some tips on how to prevent getting gimped. The following is what I currently TRY to do, though fail often at (I have a high SD rate T_T).

a) I'm getting edgeguarded
I use a jumping Blaster to discourage attacks near the ledge (think ROB Bair or DK Up B right next to the ledge). I then side B at a close enough distance such that I can grab onto the ledge if they don't grab it and automatically semi scar through the ledge if they do (counters speedhugging good).

b) They're rushing me!
I have a bit more trouble here. If they jump off the stage towards me, my natural reaction is to jump away from them and side B onto the stage. This works if they're insanely aggressive and heavily DI towards me so I can go around them, but I'm worried that I'll face an opponent who will learn to bait the second jump and interrupt the side B.

In that case, what do I do? Theoretically, Jump shine might work to counter closer attacks and pass through longer ones that outranges it, but it's risky. I can DI the Shine in 3 directions via diagonals (down back B, down B, or down forward B). Even still though, there's the chance that the opponent will bait the jump shine and hit me out of the side B.

Theoretically, I can also jump Blaster, which has a melee attack if they're closing in (not sure about the melee priority though) and the fat laser if they were faking it and are preparing to hit me out of side B. I don't know if the melee attack is good enough or if the laser is fat enough. Are there any other suggestions?

c) Projectile doom
If the opponent starts trying to gimp me with projectiles, I'm usually dead. No matter what I do, they can toss 1 projectile to bait a reaction (jump, shine, or air dodge) and then hit me right after that with a second projectile or an aerial.

I usually jump shine (crossing my fingers that I can reflect a projectile in such a way to discourage a followup aerial) and hope for the best, but I'm really not sure what to do here.

13) DACUS and DACIT

There have been plenty of threads on this, but my situation is a little unique due to my control scheme.

I use the GC controller. I set Z to shield, L to grab, R to special, and tap jump is off. The rest is the same. I can do retreating SH Fair with tap jump off just fine.

I NEED Z to shield in order to reliably perfect shield stuff. I've tried Z to jump before and didn't like it. SHing with my index finger was too difficult. I really like having two jump buttons as I use Y for rising aerials (it's comfortable to go from Y to A) and X for SH (since I can't flick the Y without hitting the A accidentally) so I'm iffy on changing my jump configurations. I also really like having two buttons for specials as I use the R for rising specials and the B for turn arounds and reversals. A is self explanatory.

The problem? I can't DACUS consistently with the L as I can't use Z as an attack or grab for the DACUS.

Interestingly enough, I can DACUS REALLY consistently by clawing the A button, but this requires that I move my index finger to that position before the DACUS. I can't continually claw as that would cause problems in hitting the X and Y for jump. Normally, this is fine as I typically DACUS after SH FF Bair or a Dthrow so I have time to move my index finger. However, the problem comes with matchups against characters like Diddy, where I need to be able to DACIT on demand.

What recommendations do you have? Perhaps an alternative control scheme that sacrifices a jump button or the B special button (it would hinder the rest of my gameplay though)? Or should I continue working towards using L (set to grab) in my DACUS? Note that I have L set to grab and not attack as I use this control scheme for other characters that need it.

14) Footstool and Locks

Does wolf have any combos, even if it's situational, dealing with footstools or locks? In particular, I saw Sheik do a true combo via Grab Release to a footstool to a FF Bair lock into a needle lock to a needle to force standup to a DACUS. My jaw dropped. Is there any chance that Wolf has something similar?

15) Japan

Does anyone have vids of pro Japanese Wolf players? I found a post that says Wolf ranks 10th in their tier list (I DO NOT KNOW OF ITS VALIDITY OR HOW OLD IT IS, I quoted it below for reference), so I'm wondering if we're missing anything. I'd really like to see how their metagame progressed. From 10th in the Japanese tier list to 20th in the SBR tier list is a pretty big gap after all.

S:MetaKnight,Snake,Falco
A:R.O.B,Diddy,Marth,Pit,Fox
B:Mr. Game & Watch,Wolf,Toon Link
C:Ice Climbers,Olimar,Sheik,Zero Suit Samus,Pikachu,Lucario
D:Kirby,King Dedede,Mario,Lucas,Wario,Charizard
E:Zelda,Ike,Donkey Kong,Ness,Link,Luigi,Yoshi,Pokemon Trainer,Squirtle,Ivysaur
F:Sonic,Bowser,Samus,Captain Falcon,Jigglypuff,Peach
G:Ganondolf

 

[Evenkor]

Reflector does not combo into Fsmash.

I'm sorry; I didn't mean a forced combo, but rather a synergy; the sense that, you can take a foe by surprise if you're able to predict their tech.

 

[Ishiey]

1) Jabbing

What's the best way to jab?
Hold A for spotdodges, it's generally better. For mixups, just learn to let go of A quickly once you hit. But really, holding A is the way to go.

2) Up B Bouncing

Idk what it's called, but it's definitely something you should get accustomed to. It can save you or kill you with the little shift, but since you know about it, you can definitely use it to your advantage.

3) Fair

a) Yes, that's a good way to use fair. Fair is really great, and it has good range, although bair has better.

b) No idea whatsoever. Probably not, try it in slow-mo to check for sure.

c) Idk about true combos with fair, but it definitely places your opponent in an unfavorable position, especially at low %s. You can also try grab after fair if you want

4) Approaching (preferably Bair)

a) SHFF bair pretty much solves everything. Well spaced, even olimar can't shieldgrab you.

b) Yeah, walking doesn't seem like a great idea.

c) Lol. I'm not the best with approaches, but maybe you can try fair. Honestly though, bair is usually more than enough.

5) Combating Perfect Shield

Just SHFF bair, really. You can FF at different times, or just SHAD into something. SHFF bair pretty much answers everything >_>

6) It's an In-Fight!

I'd say retreating fair, preferrably. Maybe retreating blaster? Jab is good in close quarters as a gtfo move, use it and learn the cancels well enough and you shouldn't have too many issues at close range. Defensive things like shield/spotdodge work well too. Don't run away all the time though, get confident with doing other things.

7) I'm trapped!

Nothing in particular to say here, all options sound decent. It's up to you and your own style/your opponent's style. Airdodges work well though, wolf's great horizontal air speed makes the air a great idea.

8) To wall or not to wall

It sounds like you should use more blaster, btw. Umm, idk, you'll get it yourself as a player, but I think I tend to wall less when my opponent is getting more aggressive. I have more of a punishing game though, so yeah. Whatever works for you, pretty much.

9) OoS

Usmash can be a bit slower than you'd like, so just watch out for that. Everything else is good, or maybe ftilt if you dont want to fsmash. Shieldgrab is my most frequently used, but fair is also fun, fsmash when you need the range, and dsmash when you need the kill

10) Dthrow Tech Chase

If they tech close or behind, probably dsmash. Run up to them and shield for the get up attack, then shieldgrab them or run to where they got up for another grab. Or just be lazy and blaster from a distance if they can't absorb/reflect I suppose. Boost smash works too, actually, but I don't use it.

11) Juggling with Uair

Uair really is great. I like to SHFF uair under platforms, and also platform drop uair. Practice it in training mode on large heavies, and also juggle them. SHFF uair combos into utilt because it autocancels If they airdodge your uair, fair/bair them. Jumping time depends on where they're launched, but time it so that you have some leeway in when you can uair I guess. Don't get too predictable.

12) YOU MUST RECOVER

a) Good tactics. Always DI up, it helps a lot. Also, you should bair first thing after getting hit to get out of the hitstun, then you can jump or use the blaster to move you towards the stage a bit quicker.

b) Yeah, airdodge through them if possible, or blaster/shine. Reverse blaster offstage so you can bair them, if you want. The bayonet has a decent hitbox though, so it might work.

c) You just gotta work to avoid that I suppose, wolf has more tools than most to deal with it so you'll manage. All of them work well enough though.

13) DACUS and DACIT

I can't help you here, especially because I'm procrastinating on HW right now...

14) Footstool and Locks

No real setups as far as I know, but you can lock people with weak hits of nair.

15) Japan

Once again, can't help. No clue about Japan, but they might be on drugs.

Hopefully that helped. Keep in mind, the answers are mostly my opinions, so try things out for yourself and keep what works. That was one monstrous post though (but since it was well organized and well written I felt you deserved a response )

 

[AssaultX]

I apologize for the wall of text that follows. I'm a noob at Smash and at Wolf and therefore have quite a few questions. I realize that it's long, but if you can answer even SOME of my questions (please indicate the question number but don't quote it), I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance. Without further ado...

1) Jabbing

What's the best way to jab?
a) Holding A counters enemy spotdodges, but makes jab canceling really difficult
b) Tapping A makes jab canceling easy, but is terrible against spotdodge
You should use the way that works best for you. Personally, I wouldn't even worry about the jab tricks when punishing a spotdodge.

2) Up B Bouncing

On occasion, I've seen wolf move left/right during the startup frames of his Up B. As in, before he starts kicking, he sort of floats in a direction. This has saved me from a few SDs before.

What is it called? How do I perform it consistently? Is it useful at all?
This movement comes from the leftover momentum you had in the air before you used up-b. There is no way you can do it consistantly that I know of, but I highly doubt that this is needed whenever you need an up-b recovery.

3) Fair

a) I'm rarely ever in range for a retreating Fair as Bair can be done from a bit further away. However, I need a rising aerial that works against the shorter characters that rising SH Bair will miss. Fair works, but I'm worried about its safety.
A short-hopped f-air will always autocancel if it was performed while rising. If you always seem to be out of f-air range, keep in mind that not all of your aerials have to hit because you're still pressuring the opponent.

As I'm always out of range for a retreating Fair, I've begun to SH Fair while DIing towards my opponent, then DIing away before I touch the ground. Wolf can't reverse his momentum like Wario, but he does retreat a decent distance. Is this distance enough to be considered safe on shield? If not, what rising SH options do I have against shorter characters?
A viable way of knowing whether or not a move is safe on sheild is if King Dedede can grab you OoS, as he has the largest (standing?) grab size. If he can, you still have the perfect-spaced b-air, as King Dedede can't shieldgrab that.

b) On a related note, I've noticed that you can SH Fair and FF a bit after the peak of Fair. Wolf lands with a larger dust cloud and without the entire ground lag animation. Does this recover any faster than SH Fair without the FF?
I've never heard of this, but I know for sure that fast-falling the rising short-hop f-air will prevent the move from autocancelling.

c) Are there any guaranteed combos with Fair? According to training mode, at certain percents Fair -> Jab combos and at other percents Fair -> Utilt combos. However, I don't know how DI and sDI affects this. Is there anything useful?
Those combos seem pretty viable, but CPUs never had the ability to DI correctly, so you're going to have to test them against an actual human opponent. DI affects the trajectory of knockback, so if done correctly, f-air's vertical knockback can be DI'd to have the knockback go slightly diagonally, possibly outside of u-tilt's hitbox. I haven't tested anything with it though.

4) Approaching (preferably Bair)

Sometimes I need to move towards my opponent. I usually rely on FH double Bair to space myself, but I don't want to get too predictable.

I then looked at what other options I had, but I need some advice on them.

a) I can approach with SH. However, if I DI too much towards my opponent, Bair becomes unsafe even IF I perfectly space it as he slides towards the opponent after the FF. I then started to SH towards the opponent a little, DI backwards, then Bair without FF just before I hit the ground so it auto cancels. I don't FF as I'm hoping the extra time in the air will give him more time to retreat. Wolf no longer slides forward after he hits the ground and he does move forward overall, but I'm not sure if this is safe on shield. Verification would be awesome.
A "perfectly" spaced b-air will not get punished. Especially if you perform it by the autocancelling method.

b) There's walking. However, as I think Wolf's tilts are garbage, walking doesn't seem to give him the same benefit that it gives Marth (Marth has a godly dtilt and his DB).
Wolf's tilts aren't as bad as you think. F-tilt is a decent spacing move on ground, d-tilt trips people to let you do amazing things, and u-tilt can be a surpise kill move on light characters.

c) There's running, which means tripping. That and Wolf's dash attack leaves much to be desired.
You can boost smash, or simply u-smash out of the dash. They're still not safe though, I'm sorry to say. I'd rather punish with u-smash than approach with it.
5) Combating Perfect Shield

Against taller characters, FH double Bair can be aimed at the opponent's head or feet, which also messes up perfect shield timing. The problem I have is against shorter opponents.

Against shorter opponents, I tend to SH more than I FH. However, SH telegraphs when the Bair will come out. Opponents just have to make sure they are in range of Wolf's Bair, then shield when Wolf reaches the peak of his jump.

Is there any way to punish opponents for doing this? For example, is SH Bair FF (Wolf kicks at the peak of his jump, then FF late enough to just barely hit the opponent) a different enough timing from SH FF Bair (the typical one) to stop perfect shielding? Or is there another option I can use?
I'm just surprised that you haven't even hinted at grabbing yet. Grabbing is always an option whenever a sheild is up. If they spotdodge, go for that pivot grab.

6) It's an In-Fight!

So my opponent is now too close for comfort (think too close to safely try for a retreating SH FF Bair). what do I do? I have a tendency to get overly aggressive in my walling and therefore become predictable in that I'll immediately try to respace myself. This often times means missed punish opportunities or in the worst case, I eat damage.


The following is what I tend to do (though the most common is dash away). Which options are better to prioritize?

Back towards enemy:
a) Dash away
b) Roll away
c) B-air

Facing enemy:
a) Jab cancels
b) Shield
c) Spotdodge
d) Retreating Fair (rare, almost never)
e) Dash away
f) Roll away

Wolf has a slow running speed, so running away might not be enough to escape an opponent's incoming hitbox. Rolling away is my preference in this case.
7) I'm trapped!

So I'm walling with my bairs and my opponent has managed to get my back towards the edge. What do I do? If I keep walling, they will get too close and I'll have to rely on a close ranged fight. What's my best option?

My usual options are:
a) SHAD through them
b) FH Bair then AD behind them
c) SH Fair through them
d) Roll through them
e) Go into a close ranged game (jab, shield, spotdodge)f) shieldgrab

Which ones are safer to do? Which ones should I avoid?

8) To wall or not to wall

I play Wolf because I love walling with Bair. If it wasn't for that, I wouldn't play him. That being said, I notice that I sometimes stay in the air too often. As in, sometimes the opponent will leave themselves open, perfect for a Fsmash punish had I been grounded. Note that I can't always Bair punish as if I'm retreating in the air, I can't immediately reverse my momentum like Wario can.

What is a good balance between walling and well...standing still? Note that when walling, I usually try to keep myself close enough to Fsmash but far enough to safely do a retreating SH FF Bair.
Never ignore your ground game. Wolf has great options there too. Walling is good for keeping your opponent at bay, not as a strategy in general. Mix it up.
9) OoS

After spotdodging an enemy attack, I usually jab, fsmash, or dsmash depending on the situation. However, after shielding I'm not sure what to do.

I've listed a couple options that I've used occasionally, but I'm not sure which ones I should be using and which ones I shouldn't.

a) Shieldgrab for speed and grab armor
b) Usmash for damage, assuming they can't DI the second hit reliably
c) Retreating Fair
d) Jab
Good for a mix up.
e) Dsmash (rare and only for the kill)
f) Fsmash (if they're out of range for other options)
These are unsafe.
The first three can be done without losing frames from dropping the shield. The last three can't. Which ones should or should I not use and when?

10) Dthrow Tech Chase

I almost never deal damage after a dthrow as I'm not sure how to tech chase. I usually blaster or DACUS, but those rarely land.

What do I do when...
a) The opponent techs into a standing position
b) The opponent gets up normally
c) The opponent rolls behind you
d) The opponent rolls away from you
e) The opponent does a get up attack

I lack the reaction time to identify a specific action and to punish it, so I'm relying on prediction alone. Therefore, I'm hoping for 2-3 different moves that cover all 5 options. 2 is ideal, 3 is usable, 4+ makes tech chasing all but worthless for me.

Tech chasing is far from being worthless. The idea of tech chasing is to predict your opponent's reaction and counter it with a variety of moves. Mixing up your follow ups are crucial for a successful tech chase. If you realize you've been doing nothing but smashes, aerials, tilts, etc., surprise your opponent by grabbing them out of the anticipated sheild they would put up and vice versa. It's all about the mixups and the possibilities.

11) Juggling with Uair

Uair is a great aerial. I just can't figure out how to hit with it. Uair has given me so much trouble that I've begun relying on Shine against opponents above me. Shine works, but Uair offers more damage and a second chance at a juggle.

Therefore, I'd like tips on how to get used to its speed and range. In particular, I want to learn to juggle after landing a Fair as that's my most common vertical launcher. Should I wait until they reach the right distance then do a rising FH Uair? If they airdodge, follow with a FF Uair/Bair/Blaster depending on their DI? Or should I learn to jump earlier and Uair at the peak of the jump?

One of the few things that makes u-air not as great as it should be is its borderline range. A nice thing to keep in mind when learning u-air's hitbox is that Wolf's claw reaches only as far as directly overhead. But when it comes to learning when to use it, all I can say is learn to predict. If you've been to direct with your attacks, be a bit more technicalcan punish thier anticipated air-dodge with the aerial that suits the situation best and vice versa.

12) YOU MUST RECOVER

Wolf's recovery sucks, we all know it. I need some tips on how to prevent getting gimped. The following is what I currently TRY to do, though fail often at (I have a high SD rate T_T).

a) I'm getting edgeguarded
I use a jumping Blaster to discourage attacks near the ledge (think ROB Bair or DK Up B right next to the ledge). I then side B at a close enough distance such that I can grab onto the ledge if they don't grab it and automatically semi scar through the ledge if they do (counters speedhugging good).

b) They're rushing me!
I have a bit more trouble here. If they jump off the stage towards me, my natural reaction is to jump away from them and side B onto the stage. This works if they're insanely aggressive and heavily DI towards me so I can go around them, but I'm worried that I'll face an opponent who will learn to bait the second jump and interrupt the side B.

In that case, what do I do? Theoretically, Jump shine might work to counter closer attacks and pass through longer ones that outranges it, but it's risky. I can DI the Shine in 3 directions via diagonals (down back B, down B, or down forward B). Even still though, there's the chance that the opponent will bait the jump shine and hit me out of the side B.
You shouldn't jump shine, since that could significantly reduce your air speed with the jump's momentum. Just shine when DI'ing towards the ledge without jumping. It saves your midair jump and doesn't decrease your air sped as much.

Theoretically, I can also jump Blaster, which has a melee attack if they're closing in (not sure about the melee priority though) and the fat laser if they were faking it and are preparing to hit me out of side B. I don't know if the melee attack is good enough or if the laser is fat enough. Are there any other suggestions?
If the f-air wasn't as end-laggy in the air, I would've suggested it. Blaster's melee hitbox is disjointed, so you may be able to slice through a few jointed moves. But the b-reversal actually gives you a nice boost toward the stage. Take a look in this thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=216805

c) Projectile doom
If the opponent starts trying to gimp me with projectiles, I'm usually dead. No matter what I do, they can toss 1 projectile to bait a reaction (jump, shine, or air dodge) and then hit me right after that with a second projectile or an aerial.

I usually jump shine (crossing my fingers that I can reflect a projectile in such a way to discourage a followup aerial) and hope for the best, but I'm really not sure what to do here.

Jump shining will waste that jump, as you cant DI as long as you have it on. Just shine without jumping.

13) DACUS and DACIT

There have been plenty of threads on this, but my situation is a little unique due to my control scheme.

I use the GC controller. I set Z to shield, L to grab, R to special, and tap jump is off. The rest is the same. I can do retreating SH Fair with tap jump off just fine.

I NEED Z to shield in order to reliably perfect shield stuff. I've tried Z to jump before and didn't like it. SHing with my index finger was too difficult. I really like having two jump buttons as I use Y for rising aerials (it's comfortable to go from Y to A) and X for SH (since I can't flick the Y without hitting the A accidentally) so I'm iffy on changing my jump configurations. I also really like having two buttons for specials as I use the R for rising specials and the B for turn arounds and reversals. A is self explanatory.

The problem? I can't DACUS consistently with the L as I can't use Z as an attack or grab for the DACUS.

Interestingly enough, I can DACUS REALLY consistently by clawing the A button, but this requires that I move my index finger to that position before the DACUS. I can't continually claw as that would cause problems in hitting the X and Y for jump. Normally, this is fine as I typically DACUS after SH FF Bair or a Dthrow so I have time to move my index finger. However, the problem comes with matchups against characters like Diddy, where I need to be able to DACIT on demand.

What recommendations do you have? Perhaps an alternative control scheme that sacrifices a jump button or the B special button (it would hinder the rest of my gameplay though)? Or should I continue working towards using L (set to grab) in my DACUS? Note that I have L set to grab and not attack as I use this control scheme for other characters that need it.
I don't know much about control changes, as I've stuck with the traditional one with tap jump on and I'm perfectly fine with it. Sorry.

14) Footstool and Locks

Does wolf have any combos, even if it's situational, dealing with footstools or locks? In particular, I saw Sheik do a true combo via Grab Release to a footstool to a FF Bair lock into a needle lock to a needle to force standup to a DACUS. My jaw dropped. Is there any chance that Wolf has something similar?

Sadly, no. We still have the basic b-air -> ??? and possibly the f-air -> u-tilt one you mentioned.

15) Japan

Does anyone have vids of pro Japanese Wolf players? I found a post that says Wolf ranks 10th in their tier list (I DO NOT KNOW OF ITS VALIDITY OR HOW OLD IT IS, I quoted it below for reference), so I'm wondering if we're missing anything. I'd really like to see how their metagame progressed. From 10th in the Japanese tier list to 20th in the SBR tier list is a pretty big gap after all.
queensaki's YouTube channel might have a Wolf player involved. I haven't checked though. Just stick with the videos on our video thread if you couldn't find anything.

Answers are in blue. But it is not a very good idea to learn all of these ideas at once, as these things come along with practice and experience. Once you get to know Wolf better as you continue using him, you just might start using some of these tactics without even knowing. Just keep playing and good luck for your Wolf.

 

[Vorguen]

Selfpossessed:

One thing, you asked some VERY specific questions. Just so you know Brawl sounds easy on paper, the most important thing is to go out there and get the feel of things, they mostly come natural. Asking something like "What do I do when I am facing away from a R.O.B. coming at me at a 55% degree angle with his F-air while I am spotdodging?" will help you .00000001% of the time.

Remember to keep things on a natural feel, I don't want you to approach a situation and be like "what is the best thing that I needed to do here again?" and hesitate and get owned.

What I am trying to say is you might not necessarily get hurt by these kinds of questions, I just have a bad feeling you are approaching Brawl in general in the wrong way.

Right now I have a splitting headache so I will leave reading your post for a future time for now.

 

[Sirus109]

Selfpossessed:

One thing, you asked some VERY specific questions. Just so you know Brawl sounds easy on paper, the most important thing is to go out there and get the feel of things, they mostly come natural. Asking something like "What do I do when I am facing away from a R.O.B. coming at me at a 55% degree angle with his F-air while I am spotdodging?" will help you .00000001% of the time.

Remember to keep things on a natural feel, I don't want you to approach a situation and be like "what is the best thing that I needed to do here again?" and hesitate and get owned.

What I am trying to say is you might not necessarily get hurt by these kinds of questions, I just have a bad feeling you are approaching Brawl in general in the wrong way.

Right now I have a splitting headache so I will leave reading your post for a future time for now.

lol well said vorguen...

Selfpossessed: Its good to know that you have different options...but like Vorguen said...when you are in the heat of the battle, these ideas you state wont come out unless you practice them every hour on the hour...The Key to Wolf and these forums is to come up with a way to make Wolf easy for u to handle and competitively to use. Some things you mention, i didnt understand. When playing against others the brawl is different and these ideas might not work...So all i can recommend is playing the computer and although that sounds dumb its a great way to train...and characters to battle against are MK, G+W, and Falco.

Apply some of the problems u have with the solutions you learn from Ishiey and Assault as well as the forum its self..and then see what you come up with

 

[Vorguen]

I would not fight against computers, they are predictable and are not at all like playing a person. A computer doesn't learn. For instance if you use a certain approach on a person

IE: bait them into a F-smash and shield it then punish (just random example)...

This would work infinitely many times against a computer, but against a person (a good one) it would only work once.

Practicing against a computer can make you sloppy, since you can get used to just abusing the same moves over and over instead of helping you become creative and versatile.

Remember what everyone is saying out there. 99% of Brawl is a mind battle!!!!!




Edit: Correction, 99% of Brawl is Meta Knight. 1% is who can use him better.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Actually, you can wave bounce the UpB and FF the SH rising Fair near the end of it.

 

[Sirus109]

Edit: Correction, 99% of Brawl is Meta Knight. 1% is who can use him better.

good one....u have a point...i like to battle against MK and G+W when im trying to do different things

the computer is a lil bad...and doesnt help much but can give u confidence when trying to do new things...at least it works me occassions

 

[Vorguen]

good one....u have a point...i like to battle against MK and G+W when im trying to do different things

the computer is a lil bad...and doesnt help much but can give u confidence when trying to do new things...at least it works me occassions

Still I would suggest only practicing on human players.


That being said I just remembered a good thing about computers. The only time I would in theory say it is okay to practice on a computer is in Training mode while the PC stands still for you to practice advanced techs like chaingrabs, boost smashes, glide tosses, etc.

 

[SelfPossessed]

Woo, thanks for the help so far. I've divided my replies to the responses in quotes. Any additional help is appreciated.

@ Ishieymoro

3a) Just to make sure, I'm not talking about a retreating Fair. I mean approach with Fair then DI back after the hit. I do not retreat nearly as far. Is this really safe?

4a) Like I already said, if you have too much forward momentum, a perfectly spaced Bair is still unsafe because Wolf slides into grab range after the FF. I'm asking if the version I mentioned (SH, DI towards, DI away, Bair just before hitting the ground) is safe as I'm trying to avoid sliding with it.

5) SH FF Bair will probably get punished by perfect shield. Bair relies a lot on shield knockback and shield stun (not sure if that's the right term) for safety, and there is none against perfect shields. That's why I'm looking for a way to mess up perfect shield timing off of SH.

6) I picked up D3 for the sole purpose of learning to fight close up and I second ZSS so I'm reasonably comfortable with jab pressure (ZSS 1 frame jab to dtilt). My problem with Wolf is that I'm never sure if I should be fighting up close or retreating.

8) The more aggressive my opponent plays, the more I use retreating SH FF Bairs and FH shines. It's why I'm not sure when I should be focused on just punishing instead of walling.

10) What about rolling?

> Dsmash covers teching.
> Running up shield grab covers get up attacks and maybe normal get up. If it covers roll away as well then I'm set.
> Rolling...I'd have to guess a direction for a boost smash or a blaster if running up and shielding doesn't work on rolling away, which would be 4 moves instead of 3. Gah.

11) I prefer to blaster instead of Fair when I can't get it lagless. I'm also asking about how to get used to Uair and actually land the move. Predicting the opponent isn't my problem right now. Uair comes out funny and I can't seem to get the hang of it.

12b) Reverse blaster doesn't work. I've already tested this the first time I read your post on it (why you didn't test it before advocating it still confuses me). Unless I've timed it wrong in my testing (1/4 speed training mode against DK Fsmash DIed up), by the time you can reverse blaster, you have lost enough momentum that the wavebounce won't go anywhere. In addition, Blaster lasts a while and can delay my much needed second jump (I use it to space my side B to avoid edge guarding) so it isn't worth it.

@ AssaultX

3a) Does Fair count as auto cancel? I was under the impression that it was considered lagless or 0lag (you let the move finish in the air to avoid ground lag), not auto cancel (you land before the move ends, canceling the remainder of the move).

I want Fair to hit the shield. It pressures the opponent more than a whiff as their shield just got smaller. Whiffing a move is more about baiting the opponent into thinking you're vulnerable. Sometimes baiting works, but I need a rising SH pressure tool as Bair is typically used when falling against smaller opponents, which makes it really predictable. Hence why I try to DI towards, then away, which I'm not sure is safe.

Unfortunately, I don't have someone who can help me test if something is safe. Shield grabbing with D3 in training mode with 2 controllers is really difficult and the results will be skewed by my having only 2 hands. If I had someone willing to help me test, I would do so before posting. I'm asking if anyone already knows the answer or is willing to test to find out.

3b) Like I said, FFing AFTER you reach the peak of your SH Fair causes you to land without the super laggy ground animation. I was wondering if this was any faster. I lack frame capture equipment.

4a) Like I already said, if you have too much forward momentum, a perfectly spaced Bair is still unsafe because Wolf slides into grab range after the FF. I'm asking if the version I mentioned (SH, DI towards, DI away, Bair just before hitting the ground) is safe as I'm trying to avoid sliding with it.

4b) All his tilts are unsafe. The risk reward ratio isn't worth it. I'd only use them if it was guaranteed to hit.

Jab > Dtilt for a poke due to safety, refreshes, and has followups (it's a mini Dancing Blade for crying out loud)
Fair > Utilt for vertical launch due to safety and spacing
Fair > Ftilt for a spacer due to safety and spacing

Basically, for every tilt, I have another option that might do less damage or knockback, but is much much safer. Risk reward ratio and all.

5) I don't have a midair grab though. I'm worried about opponents who shield after they see me reach the peak of my SH as they know the Bair is coming. If you mean an empty shorthop to pivot grab, by the time I land, their shield is already down and they're probably attacking already. Hence why I'm looking for a way to mess up perfect shield timing during the SH itself.

6) Ah, I forgot to add roll away as an option when my back is facing the enemy. Whoops.

I'm trying to roll as little as I can though. If I get a roll escape, I have no punishment options. If dashing away causes the opponent to whiff, I usually get a free Fsmash. If I shield an unsafe attack, I get a free grab or maybe a jab or something. If I spotdodge an attack, I get a free jab or Fsmash or Dsmash. I guess it's just the mindset I have when playing Wolf. I don't wait for openings, I make openings, or at least try to.

8) My problem is learning when to mix it up. Any advice?

9) I listed a lot of unsafe moves because I use them when the damage is guaranteed. As in, I just shielded an unsafe attack like Marth's Fsmash.

10) I understand the point of mixups. However, I need to limit the number of moves I do to increase the chance that I will hit the enemy. If the enemy has 5 options and I need 5 different moves to counter those 5 options, then my opponent is at a major advantage. If I have 2 moves that when combined counter all 5 options, then I have a very good chance at hurting the enemy.

I can't be expected to predict my opponents all the time (what if I play someone better than me?), so I need to increase my chances. In the one other fighting game I've seriously played, the best mixups were 50/50 mixups, though most mixups were 33/33/33 due to game mechanics.

Back to the tech chase, I'm not sure what 2-3 moves can cover every option my opponent can make after a dthrow, hence why I'm asking for help. I'm wondering if perhaps I'm timing my DACUS wrong, which is allowing my opponent to avoid it at times.

11) Ah, so its range is literally just above his head. The animation is a bit misleading for me, hence why I kept whiffing the Uair if it wasn't rising.

I think I'll experiment with raising Uairs instead of Uairing at the peak of the jump. It seems easier to do and much more consistent.

12) I jump shine because I'm trying to set up my side B. I do it when I'm close enough to the stage to side B immediately afterwards, so horizontal DI isn't a problem. If I shine without jumping, I'm automatically forced to recover with up B due to Wolf's fall speed. Recovering with up B is a death sentence; so gimpable.

Reverse blaster doesn't work. Unless I've timed it wrong in my testing (1/4 speed training mode against DK Fsmash DIed up), by the time you can reverse blaster, you have lost enough momentum that the wavebounce won't go anywhere. In addition, Blaster lasts a while and can delay my much needed second jump (I use it to space my side B to avoid edge guarding) so it isn't worth it.

I'm going to start using Blaster instead of jump away when I see the enemy jump towards me just to see if it stops enemy aerials. I haven't actually played someone who can bait the second jump and punish the side B yet, but I want to be prepared for when I do.

@ Vorguen

I approach nearly everything this way. I do something, I analyze what I did, I analyze what I could have done better, I try to implement the better way to do it. Even if I hesitate in a fight thinking about my options, that at least shows that I'm thinking. As I do it more and more, I'll eventually work those options in to the point that I won't hesitate anymore. It isn't like every time I play brawl it's a life or death scenario. Oftentimes I get better by losing matches as they show me what I need to improve on. The questions I've asked are mostly questions that I've come up with because I realized that there are holes in my playstyle that need patching.

I also do not believe in playing Wolf naturally. Natural implies bad habits. It might feel natural to spam Fsmash all day, but it is not the best thing to do. Oftentimes to improve, you have to do what doesn't feel right but is the best thing to do until it becomes second nature. Then, discover something else that needs fixing in your game and repeat the process all over again. At least, that's how I approach stuff.

As for playing computers, I play them for spacing purposes. Every time I misspace a bair, I will verbally make note of it. I also actively try to gimp the computer to get used to Wolf's off stage game (hello double jump Shine gimp). His fall speed is fast enough that gimping attempts often lead to SDs. Otherwise, I play my roommate and the odd friend here or there.

@ TurboEther

Aha! So my suspicions were correct. Still my two questions stand. How do I wavebounce the Up B (without causing me to SD from flying left or right instead of up) and is SH Fair FF towards the end of it any faster than SH Fair?

 

[Ishiey]

3a) From what I know, this is one of wolf's safer attacks. Fair really does have great range, if you use it to its fullest you should be safe.

4a) That should be safe, because approaching with SHFF bairs (just constantly moving towards your opponent) is still ridiculously safe. As I said before, SHFF bair really does solve everything, it just gets predictable.

5) Well, eventually, yes. The people I play don't PS too much, but that's definitely a factor. SH FF Bair will probably get punished by perfect shield. Well, maybe a blaster? The bayonet might hit them, and then the laser if they lower their shield, but if it doesn't work you're in for some pain. Maybe SH rising bair (not necessarily connecting), then double jump into something of your choice?

6) Well, my fear of chaingrabs leads to me retreating first good chance I get, but against people who don't have such advantages over you, do whatever you're more comfortable with I suppose.

8) The more aggressive my opponent plays, the more I use retreating SH FF Bairs and FH shines. It's why I'm not sure when I should be focused on just punishing instead of walling.

10) My instinct says fsmash, or you could SH fair/bair. If you predict them, run to where they'll roll and get ready for another grab if you have the opportunity (which shouldn't be too often).

11) Well... idk, mess around with platform stages more, because uair is more useful on such stages. I practiced hitting CPUs from below the platform, dropping through the platform, and with SHFF uairs in training and at lvl 9, it worked for me. When in doubt, practice.

12b) I'm... just really lazy My life is in a bit of a mix right now, and I don't have someone to help me test it. But, for the record, I always mentioned that it was in theory. If you use the blaster without the wavebounce effect and hold towards the stage, it is at least as useful as jumping though, I can confirm that much.

Man, you and your monstrous posts lol. And for the fair thing, if you know exactly when to FF it you could get a few more frames, but it might be risky. I think I've seen it done in some videos before (maybe I was imagining it), and it's not useless, but don't mess up.

 

[Vorguen]

Yeah I understand what you mean, I was just afraid you were thinking with the wrong context. I just feel that you're getting overly technical, but I understand because I think much like you.

Out of curiosity, why do you consider yourself a noob?

 

[ArcPoint]

3a) Just to make sure, I'm not talking about a retreating Fair. I mean approach with Fair then DI back after the hit. I do not retreat nearly as far. Is this really safe?

Depends on the character, anyone with a good Fair out of shield, and with a decent attack after shield release (Example: Snake's Utilt can punish Wolf after that).

4a) Like I already said, if you have too much forward momentum, a perfectly spaced Bair is still unsafe because Wolf slides into grab range after the FF. I'm asking if the version I mentioned (SH, DI towards, DI away, Bair just before hitting the ground) is safe as I'm trying to avoid sliding with it.

If you fast fall down then you shouldn't have too much forward momentum. If it's a problem then don't move as far forward o.O Adjust for this slide forward.

5) SH FF Bair will probably get punished by perfect shield. Bair relies a lot on shield knockback and shield stun (not sure if that's the right term) for safety, and there is none against perfect shields. That's why I'm looking for a way to mess up perfect shield timing off of SH.

Nothing is safe on powershield... if you have tap jump on you can wait just before you hit the ground and tap jump up + C-stick forward and do a rising Bair, might hit them if they're tall enough, and yeah, you can escape the situation. You won't be at the advantage, but you won't be at a disadvantage either.

6) I picked up D3 for the sole purpose of learning to fight close up and I second ZSS so I'm reasonably comfortable with jab pressure (ZSS 1 frame jab to dtilt). My problem with Wolf is that I'm never sure if I should be fighting up close or retreating.

Whatever you want really... Just whatever works.

8) The more aggressive my opponent plays, the more I use retreating SH FF Bairs and FH shines. It's why I'm not sure when I should be focused on just punishing instead of walling.

Whatever gets your opponent hit.

11) I prefer to blaster instead of Fair when I can't get it lagless. I'm also asking about how to get used to Uair and actually land the move. Predicting the opponent isn't my problem right now. Uair comes out funny and I can't seem to get the hang of it.

I guess this is just a matter of learning the move, it's a basic hitbox, nothing fancy. I don't find too much use for it. A lot of chars have a better Dair than Wolf's. I only use it to chase people on platforms.

12b) Reverse blaster doesn't work. I've already tested this the first time I read your post on it (why you didn't test it before advocating it still confuses me). Unless I've timed it wrong in my testing (1/4 speed training mode against DK Fsmash DIed up), by the time you can reverse blaster, you have lost enough momentum that the wavebounce won't go anywhere. In addition, Blaster lasts a while and can delay my much needed second jump (I use it to space my side B to avoid edge guarding) so it isn't worth it.

Yeah, I've noticed that if you get hit, it doesn't work, works fine when you put your own momentum backwards though. Like when you jump one way and then blaster you could change your momentum to go the other way.

3a) Does Fair count as auto cancel? I was under the impression that it was considered lagless or 0lag (you let the move finish in the air to avoid ground lag), not auto cancel (you land before the move ends, canceling the remainder of the move).

I'd call it autocancel, it's not "0" lag because you still have the 3 frames of landing lag to deal with... but it's a pretty low lag move.

I want Fair to hit the shield. It pressures the opponent more than a whiff as their shield just got smaller. Whiffing a move is more about baiting the opponent into thinking you're vulnerable. Sometimes baiting works, but I need a rising SH pressure tool as Bair is typically used when falling against smaller opponents, which makes it really predictable. Hence why I try to DI towards, then away, which I'm not sure is safe.

This is more character specific, if you get punished for it, then don't use it. If you can use it without getting punished, by all means, use it.


Unfortunately, I don't have someone who can help me test if something is safe. Shield grabbing with D3 in training mode with 2 controllers is really difficult and the results will be skewed by my having only 2 hands. If I had someone willing to help me test, I would do so before posting. I'm asking if anyone already knows the answer or is willing to test to find out.

3b) Like I said, FFing AFTER you reach the peak of your SH Fair causes you to land without the super laggy ground animation. I was wondering if this was any faster. I lack frame capture equipment.

4a) Like I already said, if you have too much forward momentum, a perfectly spaced Bair is still unsafe because Wolf slides into grab range after the FF. I'm asking if the version I mentioned (SH, DI towards, DI away, Bair just before hitting the ground) is safe as I'm trying to avoid sliding with it.

Then eliminate the forward momentum, this isn't a problem I've had o.O

5) I don't have a midair grab though. I'm worried about opponents who shield after they see me reach the peak of my SH as they know the Bair is coming. If you mean an empty shorthop to pivot grab, by the time I land, their shield is already down and they're probably attacking already. Hence why I'm looking for a way to mess up perfect shield timing during the SH itself.

Yeah, landing and then doing something usually isn't safe... excepts are present of course ^_^, but yeah, you still have options after you're in the air moving towards your opponent, you have a double jump for one, you can also stop right there and still be a safe distance away etc etc. Just consider all of your options.

I'm trying to roll as little as I can though. If I get a roll escape, I have no punishment options. If dashing away causes the opponent to whiff, I usually get a free Fsmash. If I shield an unsafe attack, I get a free grab or maybe a jab or something. If I spotdodge an attack, I get a free jab or Fsmash or Dsmash. I guess it's just the mindset I have when playing Wolf. I don't wait for openings, I make openings, or at least try to.

If the opponent happens to predict any of those defensive options, you get punished yourself =P Risk/reward. And, never dash away as Wolf: #1, tripping, you don't want to trip, that would be a bad thing, #2 Wolf's dash is crap, I usually get hit by the attack anyway when I dash away =/ Rolling away just creates a neutral situation, staying there is a gamble, the stakes are either you get an advantageous position, or you're at a disadvantage.

8) My problem is learning when to mix it up. Any advice?

All the time. Especially when you're in control of the match, because that's when you get your hits in, and you don't want that control to change fast due to being predicted.

10) I understand the point of mixups. However, I need to limit the number of moves I do to increase the chance that I will hit the enemy. If the enemy has 5 options and I need 5 different moves to counter those 5 options, then my opponent is at a major advantage. If I have 2 moves that when combined counter all 5 options, then I have a very good chance at hurting the enemy.

I can't be expected to predict my opponents all the time (what if I play someone better than me?), so I need to increase my chances. In the one other fighting game I've seriously played, the best mixups were 50/50 mixups, though most mixups were 33/33/33 due to game mechanics.

In any good fighting game, you have a counter strategy to any option your opponent can dish out. So, your entire moveset will most likely counter your opponent's in some way. So if you continue to dish out an attack that will most likely beat out the majority of their attacks, they will use the minority of their attacks, or just make use of a defensive option and punish accordingly. You're only increasing the chance of hitting someone if the opponent picks at random. Unfortunately opponents do not pick at random which option to do, they're going to pick the option that will counter the option they predict you will do.

And so, if the opponent notices that you're only making use of two options, you're increasing YOUR chance of being predicted and punished. The reason to increase the number of moves (As much as possible, don't go unsafe with them...) is to decrease predictability, because the vast majority of moves in Brawl, if predicted, can be punished. The things we call "Safe" are merely safe from the opponent reacting to it, not predicting it.[/QUOTE]

 

[Vorguen]

I would give you a trophy for replying to every single one of his questions without hesitating... but I'm all out of trophies


That is something I was trying to explain too I guess you used better words. There is no "secret method" or anything that would help you in every situation because any situation can be reversed by a smart opponent.

You fight not only by mastering your technique but by learning your opponent's technique as quickly as possible too.

If you have an amazing Advanced Tech you use and you land it perfectly, chances are the second time it won't be as easy to land it.

That is why Brawl in paper again, looks easy. lol

 

[SelfPossessed]

@ Vorguen

I'm a noob. I recognize my limits. I've seen too many people giving advice on forums that aren't qualified to do so. I refuse to be one of those people.

As for Brawl being easy on paper, I never said it was easy. Yes, predicting your opponent is always a good thing, but you can't assume you'll only play people you're capable of predicting. You WILL play people better than you at some point, and you still want to at least put up a good fight. What then?

My goal here is to cover up as many exploitable holes in my game as possible. This makes it more difficult for an opponent to punish me, even if they are the better player. It gives me a fighting chance and something else that I can improve on.

@ Arcpoint

Just a note, my actual set of questions is on the previous page. You replied to my response to replies to my actual questions.

3a) If approaching Fair to retreat is that punishable, I guess I'll need to find another alternative. I'd be really surprised if Snake's Utilt could hit Wolf considering how far Wolf travels. If it's that unsafe, then Wolf is doomed against short characters (no reliable rising SH, and SH FF Bair might be PSable).

I also can't see Fair as an auto cancel. I keep thinking of auto cancel as Brawl's version of L canceling, which implies landing to cancel the move, not waiting for the move to finish in the air to avoid ground lag.

4a) That's what I was asking about. I was adjusting to the slide by approaching then retreating before I hit the ground.

5) Empty SH and SH FF AD only gets you to a neutral state. If there isn't a way to stop this, then opponents can continually go for the PS with no consequence. What's to stop them from doing so? The worst that will happen for them is that the situation will be reset to neutral.

Again, they don't have to react to the Bair, they just have to react to when Wolf reaches the peak of his SH. That's completely doable if your opponent has a decent reaction time.

I do use SH reverse Blaster, but only off of a retreating SH where Bair would be out of range. Blaster isn't exactly safe on shield after all. It feels too risky an option to use against someone looking to PS an approaching SH FF Bair.

There's also the option of SH FF AD Jab to punish PS attempts, but that's extremely risky.

I wish I could get someone who can reliably PS to test variations of SH Bair timings. I'm really hoping that doing a SH, Bair a little before peak height, then FF at peak height is different enough from SH FF Bair to kill PS timing.

6) I just love baiting attacks though. It works well with walling as walling gets the opponent frustrated, you leave a perceived opening to bait an action, then punish them for it.

Tripping from a dash away isn't a big deal as I'll trip away from the opponent. If they had an attack that would hit me if I didn't trip, then they'd hit me if I did trip regardless. I never dash towards my opponent though.

Against certain characters, I do find myself rolling away a bit more than I dash away when I'm too close though. Rolling is NOT safe though, it can be punished. I've punished my roommate plenty of times for rolling away with a simple blaster. They add up.

8) The problem with constantly going from walling to waiting to punish is that I immediately lose control the moment I stop walling. If I stop walling, I'm forced into a passive state where I'm waiting for an enemy action. The pressure I was building up suddenly disappears. That implies giving control of the match over.

10) I disagree with you completely. Say I use 2 moves that together cover EVERY POSSIBLE OPTION HE HAS. He predicts the right move, he gets a reward. He predicts incorrectly, he gets punished. It's a 50% chance for both of us. To the one who predicts correctly goes the spoils.

On the other hand, say I use 5 moves that each stop only one of 5 possible options the opponent has. That means when I pick my move, I have a 20% chance of guessing it correctly. He has a 80% chance of escaping. Even if I mix it up between my 5 moves to be "unpredictable," it doesn't change how he has a much higher chance of avoiding me. I have to be SIGNIFICANTLY better than my opponent to land followups like this.

The only other fighting game I really got into was Soul Calibur 2. The philosophy that I retained from playing that is to utilize moves that are very safe on block as poke tools (you'll understand if you ever play a good Sophitia or Cassandra...236B to SC2 is like Snake's ftilt OoS is to Brawl). For mixups, use a powerful move to psychologically scare your opponent and 1-2 other safe moves that cover anything else the opponent can do. Being predictable with your SAFE moves is fine. It was proven through tourney play that conditioning with safe moves, then landing high risk high reward moves when your opponent doesn't suspect, is the way to go.

For example, say I'm Ivy and I'm at frame advantage.
> I spam my weak 2A move, which is an extremely safe, fast, ranged move that shuts down sidestep. It's only real weakness is that it can be blocked standing or crouching and can be jumped.
> I have my command throw that deals a massive 40% (think of it like D3's chaingrab) and is nearly impossible to break. It kills standing block and stepguard. Since its speed is different from 2A, it also stops GI. It's weak to everything else and is her most unsafe option.
> I have 8A+B, which stops crouching block really well due to its combo, is mediocre at stopping jump, and offers pressure options on block.

So, in this case, I'll spam 2A to condition my opponent and throw in the occasional 8A+B. My opponent will probably stand guarding as 2A shuts down nearly everything and fear of 8A+B prevents them from jumping or crouch guarding freely without risking some decent damage. Then I land a command throw that takes up 40% of their lifebar since they stood there guarding. More mindgames ensue.

Does Ivy have other moves? Yes. Can they cover similar situations? Yes. Why don't I use them? Take Ivy's air throw, which is the strongest air throw in the game. Using this would completely discourage an opponent from jumping her 2A. Why don't I use it? Because 8A+B does the same thing, but at lower damage. The air throw covers 1 option. 8A+B covers 2 and makes the air throw redundant. 8A+B is also much much better on block. It just covers so many more situations that even though the reward is less, it's worth it to increase the chances of a successful mixup. That's what I mean by decreasing the number of moves I use after a Dthrow.

I approach Brawl in much the same way. I tend to spam extremely safe moves to pressure my opponent. I try to vary the way I use my safe moves just enough to prevent complete prediction, but the point is that I won't get punished for spamming safe moves correctly. Bair walling is like Ivy's 2A, it shuts down enemy options and pressures them into a corner. Brawl in general lacks true mixups like other fighting games except in tech chase scenarios, but baiting is severely emphasized with Brawl's unique spacing. I therefore try to bait an opponent pressured by my walling into eating damage (retreating SH FF Bair, dash away to Fsmash, SH Fair, etc.).

It's the way I play I guess. I learned this from SC2 (though I was never that good at it either) and I carried the applicable bits over into Brawl. I won't claim to be a fighting game guru, but I've done my fair share of reading, playing, and experimenting to come to where I have today. I still suck at Brawl though.

 

[castorpollux]

Japanese people camp for 9 minutes straight. I'm not exaggerating.

 

[kailo34ce]

that they do..whens someone gonna make the thread "bair laser dsmash and fsmash"

thats the omega wolf tactic

 

[Vorguen]

What I meant possessed is at least you don't sound like a noob lol. And you seem to be discussing some stuff outside a noob's understanding and capacity. Maybe you are just frustrated because you aren't top-notch tournament material?

You should post us a video of yourself. Then we can truly help you because we can really see how you do in action.

 

[kailo34ce]

What I meant possessed is at least you don't sound like a noob lol. And you seem to be discussing some stuff outside a noob's understanding and capacity. Maybe you are just frustrated because you aren't top-notch tournament material?

You should post us a video of yourself. Then we can truly help you because we can really see how you do in action.

yeah do it

 

[Xyro77]

yeah do it

i train with this kid ALOT. i will get vids up in 3 days(if kalo wants to play). Fair? im willing to bet hes the 2nd best wolf on these boards.

 

[Vorguen]

Who would be the best then? And I meant possessed should put videos up since he wants us to critique his gamestyle quite badly. Either way post videos of you two, let's see how good you are.