Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

[Ayoub]

Whats the Link-Marth MU, is it normal to lose with Marth vs Link?

 

[Almo]

^Yes. Link is not good vs. Marth. once you get him off stage all you need is one fair and they pretty much can't recover. Marth has to approach since Link has projectiles, but that's hardly a problem since marth beats link up close too, not to mention his projectiles aren't really hard to maneuver around at all.

I'm usually bad with ratio's but i'm inclined to say it's 60:40...or maybe it's 65:35? I think the old MU discussion thread says it's 60:40.

 

[uhmuzing]

I'd think that Marth would have a heavier advantage over Link than 6-4, just because of how effective his momentum and fair walls are against him, but I dunno.

 

[Ayoub]

So a 'hello-i'm-one-of-the-best-marths-around'-Marth isn't supposed to lose to a link?

 

[earla]

read havoks mk guide. regarding mk's ftilt he only says to be careful because even marths fair can be beaten by mk's ftilt.

what tips does anyone have on dealing with mk's ftilt? especially players that abuse it to mess up marths spacing game.

 

[Reizilla]

Camp him. Bait it and punish the lag or something.

 

[Shaya]

The main thing to remember is that link's fastest oos action is 14 frames, which is his shield drop jab.

If you can catch link in a shield, you are pretty much free to wreck his every option.

 

[Pierce7d]

I'm pretty sure Link's grab and Nair are faster . . . and Zair is reasonable too . . . and is jab really frame 7 . . . and his spot dodge is Falco class.

 

[Shaya]

I've been told link's grab is 14-16 frames start up.

His jump is 7-8 frames IIRC as well, so his nair would be his fastest oos option (most likely), but he doesn't really have much aerial mobiltiy, nor is the hitbox for it that "punishing".

And if his ONLY OPTION is spot dodging, and his fastest move from a spot dodge is 7 frames, then do you see the issue?

Link in a shield against Marth is in a VERY bad situation.

 

[Lord Chair]

Grab is frame 11.

Doesn't change the fact that his shield is terrible.

 

[Shaya]

:O

11 frames! magnificent.
See I'd check myself, but the link boards seem to not have anything in their directories called frame data !_!
I'm probably thinking of another character when I think link's is 14.

However how far is his range at frame 11? is it moving forward? constant?

 

[Lord Chair]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228233

Frame data directory, I'd say. It may take 1-3 frames to get fully extended though. You won't see a good Link shield too much if at all in the first place, as you stated: his shield is awful and rarely even worth considering.

 

[Shaya]

Wow his jump comes out frame 9.
That's really bad lol.

So his oos options are in order:

1. Spot Dodge (2 frames)
2. Back/Forward Roll (4 frames)
3. Up Smash (10 frames)
4. Grab (11 frames)
5. Jab (14 frames)
6. Bair OoS (15 frames)
7. Nair OoS (16 frames)
blah blah
Zair (20 frames)

poor link.

 

[Lord Chair]

I think nair is even worse than that, since you can't buffer it I'd say 17 frames.

Not trying to nitpick (doing so anyway, I'm terrible), just for clarification ^^

 

[DeLux]

I'm looking to pick up a secondary specifically for Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, and Norfair. Based on match-ups, my options are most likely Marth, Wario, DDD, and then Metaknight. However, I do NOT want to use MK.

How good is Marth on each of these levels? If he is good in two out of three, he would do the job because I can simply ban one of them.

 

[Pierce7d]

DK, GnW, ZSS, and Wario all perform well on all of those stages if you're trying to avoid MK. Marth does decent on them, but solidly loses to MK on them.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Honestly the fact that link can't use his shield is one of his biggest issues considering how powerful shield is in this game, yoshi syndrome basically.

Granted, he's got disjointedness and good zoning projectiles (bombs<3), so it's not as bad, but aerial mobility and a faster jump would've been nice for him.

 

[Reizilla]

If you're not gonna play MK, you should probably pick Wario for those stages. Just don't be scared to time people out.

 

[Shaya]

Honestly the fact that link can't use his shield is one of his biggest issues considering how powerful shield is in this game, yoshi syndrome basically.

Granted, he's got disjointedness and good zoning projectiles (bombs<3), so it's not as bad, but aerial mobility and a faster jump would've been nice for him.

The entirety of G tier has yoshi syndrome, lol.

 

[Almo]

is there any good ways to practice teams if you're just playing with 1 other person (going to team with him this weekend)?

or should i just focus on getting him better in general and 1v1 him, then work on teamwork later?

 

[Shaya]

team work is good. You should practice ganging up on "one character". How fast you can respond to the opportunity to **** someone 2 on 1 can easily decide the victor of the match.

 

[Almo]

thanks. that's actually really excellent advice.

kind of a follow-up question to that, wifi or cpu's? i REALLY want to do double marth because of

i dread the ditto, mainly because since darc quit and bizkit never uses him in tournament, i am one of the THREE marth's in my region, one of them being from ME (currently in MO) so i hardly ever see him, and the other being a newer marth player with 3 or 4 tournaments under his belt. I have zero practice in that matchup, but i'm really grateful that the lack of marth practice my region gets can work to my advantage. marth whooooo lol

and it's really the only character i know how to really play, so i can teach him marth WAY faster than any other character, and he's already interested in marth to begin with. Plus double marth would be totally lulz except for gimping

However, i'm going to focus on which team combination works best because we're practicing tomorrow and that's probably it before saturday.

 

[Shaya]

double marth has silly things in dolphin slash spammage (but keeping the team mate safe whilst doing so), reasonably great gimping prowess (Marth instant ledge grab + Edge guarding from other = stocks, most of the time).

Double Marth would probably zone under platforms/near ledges. Planking is a smart and helpful option.

 

[Almo]

we're so bad as a team lol

the problem is we keep hitting each other, but we can definitely fix that over time, we're both just really aggressive. he's still learning.

however we only got to practice vs. CPU's (wifi was doing no good) and i officially love battlefield because of what you can do. We got really creative we grab releases, and figured out MK dies at 95-ish% off the top platform regardless of his DI. What we did was grab him at any point in the middle of the stage, then depending on our direction, he would grab release to a platform, where the 2nd person would grab him facing into the stage, the first person would go to the top platform, then up smash after MK releases from that 2nd grab. it was a lot of fun lol

also vs. falco, since you can dthrow him a few times before he can get out, we would have our backs turned to each other and just keep dthrowing and regrabbing, it was kind of funny, and leads into some neat stuff.

we thought up some other cool things, and he has a lot of potential so im looking forward to double marth and posting here more when i learn more about it, and the dumb things he can do.

on MK double grab release to up smash is definitely my favorite though. <3 BF. I assume it can work on other stages, it would just be wierder since they all have 1 platform or aren't in the triangle shape to do it. Brinstar i guess it could work, and on PS1's windmill formation with the platforms it seems like it would work there too. but BF's low ceiling is what makes it so awesome.

lol sorry if this was known, i just got all excited because i never practice offline and it's fun to figure out stuff.


what would be double marth's second best neutral? He's a big fan of Yoshi's Island, so i might learn the stage since people strike it, but never really ban it.

Also, is there any way to set up a reliable jab lock? we can jab lock between each other, and it's just as effective as grab releasing back and forth, but jab locking is funnier, and if you screw up the jab they have to stand up so you can just grab anyway.

 

[Albert.]

Almo are you really teaming with Peace?

WOWWW

New England too good.

EDIT: that jab lock thing is dumb lol

 

[Almo]

Almo are you really teaming with Peace?

WOWWW

New England too good.

EDIT: that jab lock thing is dumb lol

Kirch. He's entered doubles with me once last summer, and went to 2 others but didn't enter. He's technically new to the scene, but lives like 2 minutes away from me and has a lot of potential. Just from practicing once a month or so, i've already gotten him as good as peace was back in january, or around there. But to be fair peace has gotten a lot better so peace is definitely better than him. Teaming with peace would be legit though, he's improving so fast.

We're practicing again friday for DNA 6 this weekend <3 lol

Honestly i don't expect to see us do that great, so i'm using the tournament as feedback for him, he really does listen to me and applies it, so i'm going to try really hard to not get frustrated because i KNOW we won't beat the better teams there, especially as double marth. I tend to get frustrated when i lose with people that are good that i feel like i should win with, so this is going to be an interesting experience, since i understand his skill level and can't really get mad at him. He has little knowledge of the game lol

 

[Albert.]

When I left Boston the Marth hierarchy of N.E. was

Darc
Almo
Albert
Peace
Randoms

 

[Shaya]

Just a note, most "two on one" situations you'll probably need to have completed within 3-5 seconds. You can't expect your opponent's partner to not stop you for much longer from nearly any point on any legal stage.

 

[earla]

powershielding = no shield lag correct?

ok say we perfectly space a d-tilt on someone. they aren't frame trapped are they?

so frame trapping only works if someone normal shields our perfectly spaced dtilt

 

[Lord Chair]

Tipper doesn't frame trap in the first place.

 

[Almo]

When I left Boston the Marth hierarchy of N.E. was

Darc
Almo
Albert
Peace
Randoms

Now it's

-Bizkit (but he never uses him in tournament)
-Almo / Watkins (only because i'm rusty and he hasn't been around, i honestly don't know who's better, but i beat him in january, our only encounter)
-Peace
-Kirch (soon to be here lol)
-Randoms

Also there's a lot of people fooling around with Marth, like Duke, Saucem, and Ace but idk if i'd see them ever use him in tournament.

So technically i'm the best in my region, but i really hate that title when i know if Bizkit used him or Darc came back then i wouldn't hold it.

Just a note, most "two on one" situations you'll probably need to have completed within 3-5 seconds. You can't expect your opponent's partner to not stop you for much longer from nearly any point on any legal stage.

yeah i figured as much. We have to learn how to control the opponent in the 2v1 and maintain the other player when he approaches to help his teammate. I think if we can do this effectively and pressure the player being double teamed we can do some serious damage and really limit them from working as a cohesive team.

 

[earla]

if someone could kindly explain 'frame traps'(dtilt)? with marth and power shielding that would be much appreciated.

thanks.

 

[Blacknight99923]

dtilt traps have been recently explained by shaya in metagame thread

 

[Shaya]

power shielding is lame.
Don't down tilt twice. Vary your timing.

 

[ZeroL]

I have a question, which moves beat MK's Tornado?

 

[Duskshadow]

I have a question, which moves beat MK's Tornado?

The best options for Marth when faced with Meta-knight's mach tornado are counter, dancing blade, and dolphin slash.

 

[Albert.]

If you're on the ground and they start too far away, you can tipper Fsmash him out of it.

 

[Almo]

can't you normally fsmash him out of it too? or am i mistaken?


also i think i've seen tipper bair. lmao

 

[Pierce7d]

. . .

Dancing Blade is not advisable to challenge Tornado with (spacing is very, very hard and inconsistent).

Shieldbreaker (not advised for novices), Dolphin Slash (one of your best bests), Counter (also very good) Fsmash (if you have space/edgeguarding), Usmash (amazing to do while retreating) all go through Nado.

Other than the two Smash Attacks listed, NONE of Marth's moves have enough priority to go through Tornado. Marth's Special moves have transcendent priority, which means that they don't interact with other hitboxes, only a hurtbox. To describe further what that means, it only hits stuff that can be damaged, not other attacks. This is why you can't use Dancing Blade to get rid of a projectile like Mario's Fireball. This means that his special moves will interact with the Nado, and only hit MK.

I'm going to experiment with Dancing Blade more. It's possible that this is a good option that I just never try. Still, it's easier to block and punish, counter, or Smash/DS it.

 

[Albert.]

I have clash-cancelled tornado with Fair and Bair.

But it was really random and totally unreliable