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[Studstill]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErxU9g8Twxg&t=878

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D52KGq4jlMQ&t=777

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a899okNYfME

WHY IS HYRULE BANNED? THIS IS INSANE, IT`S THE ONLY STAGE IN THE GAME WORTHWHILE, BESIDES Z.
First vid. You play like a scared, scared man. So for one minute, neither of you feel like approaching? LETS BAN THE STAGE.
2nd vid. Stranded has played the game for a year, is clearly intimidated by M2K, and doesn`t approach, EVEN with the tornado for cover. Are you trying to tell me CAPTAIN FALCON CAN`T STRIKE AN OPPONENT UNDERNEATH HIM? WTF!?!
3rd vid. This is standard issue high level play. On the best stage in the game. IDK what the issue is here.
UN BAN HYRULE, WHO IS IN CHARGE OF ZENITH? APEX?
WHO?

 

[asianaussie]

dude, you were the one who wanted us to stop discussing your skill level, you shouldn't post things like that because you'll inevitably get called into question

like... implying falcon should ever approach a grounded kirby from above is just... smh

 

[Studstill]

dude, you were the one who wanted us to stop discussing your skill level, you shouldn't post things like that because you'll inevitably get called into question

like... implying falcon should ever approach a grounded kirby from above is just... smh

This is a great example of why most of you make my ****ing head explode.
What? You obviously don`t understand what I said, maybe didn`t even watch the vid for context (IDK), but decide to respond with some bull**** AGAIN about your worthless opinion on my 'skill level'. Try again, I`d love to be wrong here, but my IMPLICATION (albeit with sarcasm) was that OF COURSE FALCON CAN STOMP ALMOST ANY CHAR, especially one as small as Kirby.
Goddamn. Think before speak needs to be the new SB slogan. Comment doesn`t make sense? I`ve already decided that guy is an idiot because he thinks Hyrule>DL, so I`ll just call him a terrible idiot again.

I`d actually like an apology, for you quasi-insulting me based on your own misunderstanding. Seems fair.

 

[asianaussie]

i was honestly warning you not to take it any further, because cobr, fireblaster and the gang are not nearly as moderate as i am (passive-aggressive, if you want to put me down)... im not gonna go so far as to apologise, but i will break it down for you

kirby's u-tilt outranges literally everything falcon has coming down, and a quick-enough reaction with an u-tilt or pivot u-tilt covers pretty much every single option falcon has, and will lead him to a swift edgeguard and probably death, and this is why you don't approach kirby from above with pretty much any character

the fact that you can't understand im implying this is the basis of my 'quasi-insult', and i see no reason to apologise when i didnt misunderstand anything (to be fair, i actually hadn't watched the video, but when you wonder why falcon doesn't stomp on a kirby camping the left of hyrule from above... the obvious answer is what i detailed above)

moreover, fireblaster played smart vs killer's fox, and was rewarded for doing so - keeping himself in an inherently favourable position (near the ledge, mostly untouchable to lasers) ensured he made the most of the stage

isai vs gerson was a 14 minute epic, which sounds alright, until you realise it was a single game rather than a set... that's not good for logistics, to say the least

 

[Studstill]

What a much nicer sounding response, that didn`t have anything to do with me personally. Non-apology accepted: Thank you.
There seems to be a bunch of ideas about teh game floating around that are just plain wrong.
One of which, however you want to define it, and Fireblaster v Killer/Stranded v M2k are good examples:
The idea that there is "no approach" or even "no 'smart' approach" in some situations. By this logic, the stage is irrelevant, the best strategy at all games for btoh players is to do nothing. Even better, don`t play at all, or even enter the tournament, then there is ZERO chance of you losing. But this is a complex debate to you all, so I`ll leave it aside for the much more important:

isai vs gerson was a 14 minute epic, which sounds alright, until you realise it was a single game rather than a set... that's not good for logistics, to say the least

Yes. An amazing and of course epic fight, with two so skilled. I understand the 'logistics' argument, but not to the detriment of the game. It`s as if the whole of SSB64 has been turned into a DL sideshow. The only data available says about 1 extra minute of play per game, HY v DL. I`m making a thread now on Hyrule. Let`s bring it back. It`s been too long, and you`re killing the game.
Reasons I`ve seen, all flawed:
1. All hail the Japanese.
2. The above vids/other similar arguments.
3. Logistics.
edit: Don`t worry about me bro, I have truth and experience on my side, plus all they do is throw fecal matter and state the smae flawed arguments, ad infinitum.
"I hate this game, it`s bull****, but keep it exactly how we ****ed it up."
-The Gang
"What the **** is wrong with most of you?"
-Chris Studstill

 

[asianaussie]

i dont personally think hyrule is immediately banworthy, but that's mostly because i dont camp very much and havent had exposure to what one might call 'proper' camping, given i live somewhere in the vicinity of saturn

speaking as someone who has had to run tournaments in horrendous circumstance, logistics are incredibly important, especially when the tournament is large and needs a uniform ruleset - and the japanese ruleset is pretty much defined by logistics, so you shouldn't really brush that argument aside

wall of text incoming

As for the idea of approach... I should write a disclaimer: this is mostly my personal, somewhat-scrubby opinion. Approaching is inherently worse because you are committed to something, which gives you fewer options and opens up periods where you are vulnerable. Additionally, the raw number of options you have in a defensive position is greater. What's even more interesting about Smash is that the ledge is a ledge, rather than a corner. In a traditional fighting game, being in a corner is bad because you have fewer options, less room to play neutral in and are subject to continued opponent pressure. In Smash, however, being near the ledge... isn't really a bad thing. A great example is the aforementioned Kirby vs Falcon, where Kirby is perfectly content to sit there and pretty much literally wall Falcon, with a huge reward associated if Falcon decides to be rash.

This doesn't disqualify approach, however. All fighters are a game of risk vs reward, and judging what risks are best to take. The best campers are those who can mount an offence from a distance, which means that, in order to get a KO, the good camper will eventually need fewer theoretical hits/openings than the character being camped. However, it is clear that projectiles are not KO move material, making some level of 'up-close game' important. Approach is about choosing the risks to take, and a risk like D-Airing into a Kirby U-Tilt has an unacceptably high risk associated with it. It's not wise to approach when you know you're just going to take one to the face and die, and Hyrule's configuration gives Kirby an area where he can do just that. Areas like Dreamland are significantly less abusable in this aspect.

 

[Studstill]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wall of text away, man! Well said.
"This doesn't disqualify approach, however. All fighters are a game of risk vs reward, and judging what risks are best to take. The best campers are those who can mount an offence from a distance, which means that, in order to get a KO, the good camper will eventually need fewer theoretical hits/openings than the character being camped. However, it is clear that projectiles are not KO move material, making some level of 'up-close game' important. Approach is about choosing the risks to take, and a risk like D-Airing into a Kirby U-Tilt has an unacceptably high risk associated with it. It's not wise to approach when you know you're just going to take one to the face and die, and Hyrule's configuration gives Kirby an area where he can do just that. Areas like Dreamland are significantly less abusable in this aspect."
Might be the best form of that argument I`ve read. Most of what you said is verbatim from my arguments for items at high level play, to encourage the up-close game by situation, instead of stage limits (DL), also to give Falcon a couple of projectile options for approach. I.E. Items solve camping.

 

[asianaussie]

the thing about items is that they are totally random in nature, so i don't think they really do anything to stop camping - they are a grab-bag of unfair advantages to one player or the other regardless of game-state, and if the camper is the one who gets this reward, that's just piling on the advantage

having a beam sword drop on you for doing nothing but SHDL gives you an unreasonable advantage, for example - you now have a projectile with which to threaten an opponent sitting below your SHDL level, and any single hit from the beam sword, be it jab or throw, will cause a huge upset in the game balance - not to mention you've probably already damaged them somewhat, compounding how ridiculous it is

additionally, falcon doesn't have an approach problem against anyone except in a few circumstances, and hyrule is the reason for pretty much all those circumstances - vs fox because runaway, vs kirby because u-tilt, arguably vs link because runaway (but not really)

while items do add a layer of depth, it's not really a layer of depth that rewards skill as much as blind luck, because they doesn't solve more problems than they cause in relation to high-level gameplay that rewards skill

 

[Studstill]

You`re glossing over reality, I don`t think most of you have ever played 64 with items, at least seriously.
What I mean is take the Stranded M2K vid:
A beam sword appears, (or a tornado, like did happen) on the ledge with M2K. There is the reaction to it, this is the first high-level item game, reacting/retrieving/being aware of offscreen item drops. This can provide an opportunity for approach, and the interesting (and high level) and unique moment of attack, focused not by each opponent approaching the other (dynamic) but by both opponents reacting to a static goal. I.E. You know where your opponent is going, and can either bait or beat him there. Again, this is an awesome moment of combat that needs severe justification (stronger than "It`s RANDOM: UNFAIR") to be removed.
Secondly, M2K must actually go get the thing, even if it is RIGHT ON TOP OF HIM. This moment (few frames for movement, one to grab) is certainly exploitable, in fact, is the very skill-based interaction I spoke of above (reading your opponent, judging timing, distance).
Thirdly, while you admit to this level of depth (as quite a few players do, but are too terrified of "the community" to speak up), you are wrong in the calling it luck. Even if an item spawning RIGHT ON YOU is considered too much of an advantage, the game itself limits this to <1% IMO* by having varied item drop heights and locations. Thank you for seeming to have an objective opinion on this, the level of debate on something as important the RULES should always be defendable.

*In my hours of experience with items, I would honestly say it`s about 1/100, maybe even less, that drop right on or next to (within roll distance) one character or the other. Suffice to say it is very rare, and 99.9% of these interactions are determined on skill, not luck.

 

[THE_MAAFIA]

Items are fun, I like to combo with motion sensor bombs :3 @ S Studstill we gotta play some matches with items on again after school is over for me

 

[Studstill]

Yeah yeah!
Anytime!

 

[asianaussie]

why would m2k go to get a beam sword in that situation, he has literally no need for it, as i already stated...

also, it doesn't have to drop on top - it merely has to drop in a location where one player needn't bother try getting it because the opponent is just that much closer

the whole 'you're scared of the community backlash' thing is an argument that has been done to death by a million people in a million different forums - there is a reason all the top players turn items off for serious matches. i am not scared of the community, i simply see no reason to allow random factors to enter smash bros - take it from someone who plays 6 trading card games, i am very aware of the effect of luck upon matches of any competitive sort, and i see no need to inject additional luck at all if i can help it

additionally, the whole moment of BAITING that you describe is in itself an unfair advantage for one player, and abandoning a position for a slight chance at an unfavourably placed item is a risk that no level-headed player would throw caution away for, while still providing a very obvious advantage for the player placed closer to the item

if you can't see that an item will, a majority of the time, benefit one player significantly more than the other, or at least admit that items have an enormous potential to give undue victories, then i don't think there's a discussion to be had

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

Please move all Studstill related discussion to the cognitive dissonance thread.

 

[Nintendude]

How many frames is ledge grab invincibility?

 

[mixa]

How many frames is ledge grab invincibility?

http://smashboards.com/threads/simple-facts-that-you-may-not-know.308210/page-17#post-16119752

round robin pools at zenith?

 

[Cobrevolution]

http://smashboards.com/threads/simple-facts-that-you-may-not-know.308210/page-17#post-16119752

round robin pools at zenith?

strife said if the number of entrants per game exceeds 256, then we'll have bracket

so i'm pretty sure we've got RR pools and i am quite happy

 

[Nintendude]

Yeah it's not my decision. It's just based on logistics. Thanks for the link btw. Does anyone have detailed mechanical information on jumps? (stick vs. button jump, short-hop frame window, etc.)

 

[Sangoku]

There's no chart of every jumps' heights that I know of, but that's a good idea, I'll do it one of these days. Unless Madao has a formula to compute the height? Short hop is 3 frames or less.

 

[Madao]

Iirc, ya I can just calculate the ground jump.The midair/2nd jump is more difficult due to certain characters having a different formula. I did make an incomplete chart like a year ago lol. The numbers were strange though, I think excel messed it up.

Does anyone have detailed mechanical information on jumps? (stick vs. button jump, short-hop frame window, etc.)

This thread has a good amount of detail http://smashboards.com/threads/compilation-of-technical-frame-data.325142/

 

[Nintendude]

That's interesting - thanks. I honestly had no idea that there was a wide array of stick jump heights depending on how long you hold the stick for.

 

[Sangoku]

It's not about how long you hold it for, it's about how far you push it.

 

[Studstill]

If you can`t see that removing all items will unbalance the game.....
Look here is the simple truth. You people are not equal in skill. The single largest and usually only deciding factor in who wins a game is player skill. Period. Not character choice, not stage picking, not items. This game is incredibly balanced, and by eliminating the few items that take no skill to use to "enormous potential", you promote gameplay style choices over others. The items settings I use demand a higher level of play, in that one must deal with this variance and still best the opponent.
Again, to be clear:
The idea that items on/off will change the OUTCOME of a match is ridiculous.
The idea that that Hyrule was banned before items unbanned is ridiculous.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

@ Sangoku Can you move that ^ to the other thread? The topic has moved from the social, to the dissonance thread (where it belongs) and now its here, and it is off topic.

 

[eMeFDee]

Is it possible to play 2 players in the 1P Game Mode through Gamesharking?

 

[Cobrevolution]

indeed

 

[eMeFDee]

What about co-op? I want to play two against the computer.

 

[_CaKeS_]

Does anybody else shield jump? Like hold your shield and then stick jump? I would be baffled if there was any actual advantage, like there is with shield dropping through platforms, but the only reason I do it is because I got into the habit since I shield drop so much. It can make for some pretty annoying matches when you hear the shield clicking on and off at 10 times a second, it doesn't impede my play at all, just wondering if anyone else does this out of habit, or if somehow there's an advantage (I'm not talking about stick vs. C buttons, I always jump with stick anyway unless I'm using a flying character).

 

[Cobrevolution]

yes, because of the invincibility frames. i've been saved countless times by shield jumping when my opponent is nearby. and since shielding stops your run, i've been jumping oos from a shield stop to get into good positions for tech chasing on platforms or to edgeguard. the only problem i have is accidentally grabbing instead of doing an aerial oos. pain in the ass.

 

[_CaKeS_]

Alright, I've just always done it out of habit, wasn't sure if it was just a habit or I subconsciously felt like it was advantageous, but it's good to know it's not just annoying sounds for no reason. But I mean just being stationary and shield jumping, I knew that it stopped your run which, like you said, is incredibly helpful, but I find myself (even if I'm just standing still) wanting to hit shield before jumping even if I'm doing nothing fancy. And yeah like my signature says a lot of my grabs are by mistake because of this, I basically spam Z until I cancel moves as well, so while I'm in the air I'm just hitting Z repeatedly, and sometimes if I miss a jump or something I'll just stand there on the ground spamming Z and look like an idiot

 

[Saltsizzle]

How do you jab grab and is it useful?

Is the input A then Z then R in rapid succession or is there a certain timing to it?

 

[kys]

Jab grab is very useful, especially for guaranteeing a grab off someone's shield after, say, a drill. You can use Z or R. The timing is faster than you might think (which is the problem I had with it when I first started learning), but it's easy.

 

[Smurf16]

Do you have a friend (friends) who play 64 casually that you suspect could be decent competitively, but don't want to go to competitions?

 

[Cobrevolution]

a bunch. one tried to play online but didn't like the delay and lag, so he stopped trying. if everyone i know whom i wanted i to get into the game actually got into the game, the jersey scene would be beyond stacked.

 

[breakthrough]

Do you have a friend (friends) who play 64 casually that you suspect could be decent competitively, but don't want to go to competitions?

Yes, my older brother's friend John did extremely well in the only tournament he attended considering his lack of tech skill. He relies so heavily on the casual metagame and is unwilling to learn how to z cancel or understand the importance of it, despite my ability to 4 stock him repeatedly when he used to wreck me each game before I learned the advanced techniques. Now I just read his dash grab and he's dead. I've tried to teach him but he's just unwilling to learn, it's a shame.

 

[mixa]

what is it that makes one wanna learn the game?

 

[Sangoku]

Beat up their friends.

That was my motivation.

 

[sman865]

How do you jab grab and is it useful?

Is the input A then Z then R in rapid succession or is there a certain timing to it?

A then Z/R while you're still holding down A. If the jab misses then the grab won't come out. If you let go of A it's not a jab grab, it's a jab...grab.

Only Mario, Luigi, Pika, and Ness can do it iirc.

 

[mixa]

you don't need to hold A, which means the grab does come out even if the jab doesn't connect
but then again, i can't see a realistic scenario where you'll miss the jab but connect the grab

 

[Shears]

Why did smashboards change their display around? I have a hard time seeing if a thread has an unread post. Before the bold and brightness was easy to distinguish, now its not anymore.

 

[WOTG]

What causes them to be knocked off in front of the screen? Is there something specific that causes this or is it random?