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[Sangoku]

I don't know about the variables, but ingame, it does have a frame delay as well. Is that what you meant? If so, I guess we can still say that everything has a frame delay. Whether the variables changes right away or not is irrelevant if the actual ingame outcome is a delay.

 

[Madao]

Most things have the delay if not all.

 

[mixa]

i thought games have at least one frame of delay for inputs but not for variable checks

 

[Sangoku]

If my guess is correct, you could pause mupen, hold down, and if you were to get hit in the next frame, you would get reduced knockback even though you didn't start moving yet. I will have to test it soon. I hope I'm not wrong xD.

Nope, just tested.

 

[Madao]

Nope, just tested.

You're right that it doesn't work that way on Mupen.

Edit: I just confirmed that Nemu pauses at a different point than Mupen does. Sorry for the confusion guys. Now I'm not sure which one is correct lol. From now on I should use Mupen for frame testing, just to clear confusion though.

 

[Sangoku]

Yeah that's what I feared, it looks like it's emu dependent. I guess there's no way to know what happens on console then? Or even on PJ?

 

[Madao]

I wouldn't say the delay is different on each emulator, it's just that the frame pausing stops at different times. So it's difficult to determine how things work in a regular match. It seems like there's a cutoff at some point in frame for input check, so if you miss that cutoff it's an extra frame of delay.

My guess is that Nemu pauses at an earlier point in the frame than Mupen does.

 

[Sangoku]

Oh I see. I've always thought the input check was being done between frames, ie if you quickly press a button during a frame (on the middle of a frame), it wouldn't register.

 

[Chaostatic]

Lol you guys are crazy. ^_^

How do you know all this frame data stuff anyway?

 

[Shears]

They're not actual people, they've evolved into smash encyclopedias

 

[Chaostatic]

I want to be a smash encyclopedia

Sangoku, mixa, Madao, teach me your ways.

 

[mixa]

teach me your ways.

being able to frame advance is almost all there is to it.

get mupen rr. go to Options > Settings > Hotkeys and there you can set the frame advance button and others.

now with the game loaded, press the frame advance button (or the pause button), and now you're in 'frame advance mode', pressing that again will make the game advance one frame.

to register inputs while in that mode, you mustn't simply press the inputs, you must hold them and then press to frame advance.

to resume to normal speed, press the pause key or whichever key you assigned in hotkeys.

you can advance, but you can't go back. so use save states.


that's all I know, pretty much. you can do fancy stuff, record TAS videos, etc. I've never done that so I couldn't tell you how.




then, get Madao's cheat engine table and befriend it. (it's at the end of the first post)


also, you may also find use in filtering the guide threads that have been made in the past. to do that go to this page, ctrl + F 'thread display options', and set the Prefix to 'Guide'. the threads by the user named Skrlx are the most useful ones.

 

[Han Solo]

Did you guys know that the Rumble Pak works with this game, and that it rumbles every time you shine cancel? It's amazing.

 

[Chaostatic]

being able to frame advance is almost all there is to it.

get mupen rr. go to Options > Settings > Hotkeys and there you can set the frame advance button and others.

now with the game loaded, press the frame advance button (or the pause button), and now you're in 'frame advance mode', pressing that again will make the game advance one frame.

to register inputs while in that mode, you mustn't simply press the inputs, you must hold them and then press to frame advance.

to resume to normal speed, press the pause key or whichever key you assigned in hotkeys.

you can advance, but you can't go back. so use save states.


that's all I know, pretty much. you can do fancy stuff, record TAS videos, etc. I've never done that so I couldn't tell you how.




then, get Madao's cheat engine table and befriend it. (it's at the end of the first post)


also, you may also find use in filtering the guide threads that have been made in the past. to do that go to this page, ctrl + F 'thread display options', and set the Prefix to 'Guide'. the threads by the user named Skrlx are the most useful ones.

Lol i totally wasn't expecting a real answer. I'll look into this. ^_^

Did you guys know that the Rumble Pak works with this game, and that it rumbles every time you shine cancel? It's amazing.

Wait you're not serious are you..? I would honestly be the happiest person in the world.

 

[Han Solo]

That would be a strange thing to say if I wasn't serious. I'd say something like "Kero is my favorite poster, and he's really funny", if I wasn't being serious.

 

[Chaostatic]

IDK aren't you that guy that loves shines? I thought it may have been like a bad joke or something lol.

I'm super hyped right now. I have to find a Rumble Pak.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

**** you too solo

 

[Han Solo]

I don't tell bad jokes.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Need the frame data for Pikachu's up b Invincibility and non-frame data

 

[B Link]

I wouldn't say the delay is different on each emulator, it's just that the frame pausing stops at different times. So it's difficult to determine how things work in a regular match. It seems like there's a cutoff at some point in frame for input check, so if you miss that cutoff it's an extra frame of delay.

Edit: I just confirmed that Nemu pauses at a different point than Mupen does. Sorry for the confusion guys. Now I'm not sure which one is correct lol.

So are you saying you did an input in Nemu, and in some cases, your moves came out at the -same- frame that you made your input? How is this possible if you need to advance to the next frame in order to see anything happen? Is Nemu's frame advance a sub-frame advance?

 

[Sangoku]

Need the frame data for Pikachu's up b Invincibility and non-frame data

Why don't you look at Framedisplay?

 

[Madao]

So are you saying you did an input in Nemu, and in some cases, your moves came out at the -same- frame that you made your input? How is this possible if you need to advance to the next frame in order to see anything happen? Is Nemu's frame advance a sub-frame advance?

With Mupen, if you pause, hold a button, the move won't start until 2 frames later. When I tested crouch cancel against Fox's laser, I had to hold down, 2 frames before getting hit. With Nemu I could pause the game 1 frame before getting hit and hold down. So it's clear that Nemu pauses the game at a different time than Mupen does. If I were to take a guess, I would say Nemu's is more realistic, but it will take a while to truly figure it out. Idk if I will even bother trying to analyze that frame data stuff. It seems like a hassle. I will try out a few more things in Nemu to see if this crouch cancel thing is special, or if everything really does happen within 1 frame, instead of requiring an extra frame.

 

[B Link]

Wow it does take 2 frames on mupen, I thought it was 1 for some reason lol. Wasn't paying attention I guess.

On console it's likely a 1 frame delay. So I think Nemu is more accurate.

I think Mupen just fails to register your input on the frame you pause (due to some programming flaw). So, it takes 1 extra frame for Mupen to process it.

Nemu should be the one we use then, not Mupen.

Can Nemu make TAS vids though? If not then I guess we have to stay with Mupen =/

Forget the stuff about subframes -- I doubt an input can come out on the same frame of the input.

 

[Madao]

I just did some testing with Nemu and everything starts on the next frame, so crouch cancel isn't special lol.
Nemu can't make TAS vids unfortunately. Now I know why I've been so confused this whole time about frame delay because I randomly switch between Nemu and Mupen for frame testing. Mupen is more convenient for frame by frame play, but I really like Nemu's debugger.

 

[mixa]

Lol i totally wasn't expecting a real answer.

I figured I'd write a basic how to TAS anyway since I don't think there's one here.
I avoided TAS for a long time because I thought it would be too complex to deal with, so I just wanted to show it's simple.

 

[Metacopolys]

So when playing on kaillera the default audio plugin does this thing where it kinda skips every few seconds. I tried changing the plugin through settings and even deleting it but neither were a solution. So is there any way to use a different audio plugin online? I already tried google.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Why don't you look at Framedisplay?

Couldn't find the thread, can't do it on my own emu for some raisin.

 

[Sangoku]

It's on the first page... Anyway, here's pikachu.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Thanks. According to this, one section of the up B lasts 69 frames. Judging by the colors, invincibility lasts 20 of them?

 

[B Link]

Thanks. According to this, one section of the up B lasts 69 frames. Judging by the colors, invincibility lasts 20 of them?

Yep

 

[Chaostatic]

I just recorded this, I'm shining the opposing Mario but it appears that since I'm walking upwards the shine get's cancelled even faster than the hitbox comes out.



However, according to the table, the shine hitbox comes out frame 1 (after the input and delay) and should hit Mario. So why is the shine being cancelled before the hitbox comes out? Will someone explain what's going on here? I'm mad confused lol.

 

[Sangoku]

Remember that during the shine animation (with the blue hexagon), Fox is in the air, meaning he also has a horizontal mobility. If you input diagonal down, Fox should be moving a bit toward that direction (since it's a slanted jump). However if you do it toward the upper part of a slope, he will reach the ground on the first frame of shine, therefore cancelling it (by definition a shine cancel cancels itself whenever Fox touches the ground).

 

[Chaostatic]

According to this, the blue hexagon and the shine hitbox come out on the same frame. So doesn't the fact that we see the blue hexagon mean that the hitbox of the shine is present? And if not, wouldn't that mean that there is technicality a unit of time/input even smaller than a frame?

 

[Annex]

Someone go get solo

 

[rjgbadger]

@ Han Solo

10hansolochars

 

[B Link]

According to this, the blue hexagon and the shine hitbox come out on the same frame. So doesn't the fact that we see the blue hexagon mean that the hitbox of the shine is present? And if not, wouldn't that mean that there is technicality a unit of time/input even smaller than a frame?

If you see the blue hexagon come out, the hitbox will appear as well. This occurs when you jump and shine, or just stand and shine.

If you "shine cancel", and the blue hexagon comes out, you are not touching the ground on the first frame of the shine.

Your example in the gif seems to be when the blue hexagon doesn't come out. Here, you only see smoke (if the hitbox DID come out in your gif, then you missed mario with it).

For whatever reason, if you are moving on the ground (which implies touching the ground, obviously) on the first frame the shine comes out, the hitbox will not appear, but the smoke will.

Why? I'll wager a guess: It's probably due to the programming order (i.e. sequence of events).

It's probably something like...

...if down+b is inputted, then:
1. smoke animation appears (stuff could occur before, like the shine sound)
2. is fox on the ground? y/n
a. yes (go to 3)
b. no -> ok, hitbox can appear as well (i.e. air shine)
3. is fox moving? y/n
a. yes -> hitbox will not appear (this is likely because the game programmers decided that if fox is moving on the ground, then the hitbox won't appear -- this makes intuitive sense to me, otherwise you could run around and shine cancel with hitboxes coming out LOL)
b.. no -> hitbox will appear (i.e. a standing shine, lol).

If you're moving horizontally across a perfectly horizontal platform (e.g. Hyrule middle platform), and shine, you are seeing 2b above (where the blue octagon appears, and the hitbox comes out).
If you're moving horizontally across an upwards slope (and are holding a down-diagonal direction so that you stay on the ground), and shine, you are seeing 3a above.

Another interesting case of 3a is the "perfect-shine" off the respawn platform: Here, it's 3a because fox is programmed to drop on the same frame you shined. This is moving, but not because you inputted a direction.

...An interesting question cuz it forces you to think about chronological sequence of events (there was a thread that showed this for all moves).

 

[Han Solo]

If you don't see the blue hexagon, the hitbox doesn't come out. There's a flash of light like when you fast fall, but that's not the blue hexagon.

 

[Chaostatic]

Ah I think I understand. Thanks dudes.

Still amazed at how much technical **** you all know lol.

 

[B Link]

np, also Han Solo is right -- there is a flash of light that resembles an asterisk: * -- it comes out at the same time as the smoke, but still no blue hexagon

 

[The Star King]

3. is fox moving? y/n
a. yes -> hitbox will not appear (this is likely because the game programmers decided that if fox is moving on the ground, then the hitbox won't appear -- this makes intuitive sense to me, otherwise you could run around and shine cancel with hitboxes coming out LOL)
b.. no -> hitbox will appear (i.e. a standing shine, lol).

Wat.

That's kind of a weird way to think of it/weird conclusion to come to. Why wouldn't it be just whether Fox hits the ground or not? And on a slope, if you're moving horizontally into an upwards slope, you'll move into the ground first frame you leave the ground, so no shine hitbox. That's the simplest and most obvious explanation. What I'm trying to say is I don't get where you got "step 3" from, when "step 2" alone can explain everything.

I'm not even sure what "otherwise you could run around and shine cancel with hitboxes coming out" is saying? What do you mean? You can do a shine cancel with a hitbox out of a run. Unless you mean without jumping, but you can't do a down-b directly out of a run.