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[B Link]

What conclusion are you talking about? Be more specific.

It sounds like you disagree with this one -- B Link says: "If you are 'moving' (meaning you inputted a left/right input, or are dropping from respawn) on the ground going up a slope, and do a 'perfect' shine cancel, the hitbox won't come out. The 'moving' explains the phenomenon of smoke coming out, but not the blue hexagon."

Reason: Probably because the programmers didn't want us to move and do crazy fast shines with hitboxes coming out (see bottom of post).

And you conclude otherwise with this (I think): "The principle that explains B Link's and Chaostatic's phenomenon is -just- being on the ground."

If your conclusion were true, there would be cases in the game where I am standing perfectly still (no left/right input) and the blue hexagon doesn't come out. There is no such case.

OK, there is a close one: dropping from the respawn with a "perfect shine." But like I said earlier, you are still technically "moving" because the game programs that you are "dropping" the moment an input is pressed. You mention moving in all your examples too lol.

I'm not even sure what "otherwise you could run around and shine cancel with hitboxes coming out" is saying? What do you mean? You can do a shine cancel with a hitbox out of a run. Unless you mean without jumping, but you can't do a down-b directly out of a run.

You have to read my post in the context of replying to Chaostatic and Sangoku. We're all talking about shine cancelling on upward slopes. So the context of me talking about "running around and shining with hitboxes coming out" is in regard to running up slopes.

You're right though -- "running around" isn't the best way to put it.

I basically meant to say this: you know how you can do extremely fast shines on a slope if you are very technically skilled? Even faster than on "flat" platforms?

Now imagine that those hitboxes DID come out. That's what I meant.

 

[B Link]

Sorry for the double post -- but I thought of a case where you are not pressing left/right, but can still do a no-hitbox shine (but you're still 'moving'): Upward moving platforms

When a moving platform is lifting you up, you are 'moving up' but touch the ground immediately. But my principle of 'moving' causing the smoke to come out (but no hitbox) still works here and in Chaostatic's case.

 

[The Star King]

What conclusion are you talking about? Be more specific.

My entire post was about it lol. Anyway you got what I meant.

It sounds like you disagree with this one -- B Link says: "If you are 'moving' (meaning you inputted a left/right input, or are dropping from respawn) on the ground going up a slope, and do a 'perfect' shine cancel, the hitbox won't come out. The 'moving' explains the phenomenon of smoke coming out, but not the blue hexagon."

And you conclude otherwise with this (I think): "The principle that explains B Link's and Chaostatic's phenomenon is -just- being on the ground."

Yep you got it.

If your conclusion were true, there would be cases in the game where I am standing perfectly still (no left/right input) and the blue hexagon doesn't come out.

Oh, you're under the impression that Fox lands instantly with a shine on a flat surface.

I think he lands a frame later with on a horizontal slope shine, though.

I figure that when you shine on a flat surface, one frame you are just above the ground, and gravity causes Fox to land the next frame. BUT if you are moving horizontally into an upwards slope, you move sideways into the ground, so you land the same frame the shine "comes out", instead of the frame after.

I mean I haven't verified the stuff I'm saying or anything, but that's what makes sense to me.

I guess what you're thinking is that, with a shine on a flat surface, vertical acceleration downwards would cause Fox to land immediately, but I think that the frame your shine comes out, your vertical velocity downwards is zero, so for a frame Fox wouldn't land.

How about this case: you shine on a platform that is moving upwards, without you yourself moving right or left. You still get an invisible shine.

OK, there is a close one: dropping from the respawn with a "perfect shine." But like I said earlier, you are still technically "moving" because the game programs that you are "dropping" the moment an input is pressed.

At first I was stumped by this. But then I had an idea and tested it, and I was right:

What I tested was this: what happens if Fox is holding shine on land, and the land disappears (I tested this on Yoshi's Story clouds)? Does the shine end, or does Fox simply fall while remaining in shine.

The answer: the shine is canceled.

So my guess is, on respawn platform, Fox does a land shine, but it is simultaneously canceled by the platform disappearing. It's not the usual cancel, where it's canceled by going from air to ground, it's the other way around, lol.

You mention moving in all your examples too lol.

So? Occam's Razor.

You have to read my post in the context of replying to Chaostatic and Sangoku. We're all talking about shine cancelling on upward slopes. So the context of me talking about "running around and shining with hitboxes coming out" is in regard to running up slopes.

You're right though -- "running around" isn't the best way to put it.

I basically meant to say this: you know how you can do extremely fast shines on a slope if you are very technically skilled? Even faster than on "flat" platforms?

Now imagine that those hitboxes DID come out. That's what I meant.

Oh, mkay.

 

[Gammelnorsk]

is donkoy kong reverse fair good for combos

 

[B Link]

Oh, you're under the impression that Fox lands instantly with a shine on a flat surface.

I guess what you're thinking is that, with a shine on a flat surface, vertical acceleration downwards would cause Fox to land immediately

No to all of these interpretations of my position. I agree with everything you say here:

I think he lands a frame later with on a horizontal slope shine, though.

I figure that when you shine on a flat surface, one frame you are just above the ground, and gravity causes Fox to land the next frame. BUT if you are moving horizontally into an upwards slope, you move sideways into the ground, so you land the same frame the shine "comes out", instead of the frame after.

I mean I haven't verified the stuff I'm saying or anything, but that's what makes sense to me.

But...how does any of this contradict my main conclusion?

Here's my conclusion again -- B Link says: "If you are 'moving' (meaning you inputted a left/right input up a slope, or are dropping from respawn + going up a moving platform :D) and do a 'perfect' shine cancel, the hitbox won't come out. The 'moving' explains the phenomenon of smoke coming out, but not the blue hexagon."

Reason: Probably because the programmers didn't want us to move and do crazy fast shines with hitboxes coming out.

Star King: Are you saying that the 'land cancelling principle' is a better explanation than the 'moving principle' for explaining Chaostatic's case? You must be, since you agreed to this as your position: "The principle that explains B Link's and Chaostatic's phenomenon is -just- being on the ground."

But your 'land cancelling principle' does not explain why the hitbox does not come out in Chaostatic's case. Remember my main purpose in the first post was to show Chaostatic a (plausible) reason why smoke comes out, but not the hitbox.

...

Let's assume your position: We shall say that the smoke comes out and the hitbox doesn't (in Chaostatic's case) SOLELY because 'fox is still on the ground'. Now what? We are left empty with no explanation with regard to this: Why did the programmers not want the hitbox to come out in Chaostatic's case? He was on the ground!

Here's another problem with your position: If you do a regular down-b (just press down-b, with no jump) fox's hitbox comes out. But fox is on the ground, no? So clearly it doesn't bother the programmers to let fox's shine hitbox come out when he's on the ground. Just being on the ground and hitbox-shining is not a concern for the programmers.

Yet they DISALLOWED the hitbox to come out in some cases -- i.e. when you are moving! My 'moving principle' predicts that they did this because otherwise you could do crazy fast hitbox-shines (e.g. on slopes, upward moving platforms etc.).

What I tested was this: what happens if Fox is holding shine on land, and the land disappears (I tested this on Yoshi's Story clouds)? Does the shine end, or does Fox simply fall while remaining in shine.

The answer: the shine is canceled.

So my guess is, on respawn platform, Fox does a land shine, but it is simultaneously canceled by the platform disappearing. It's not the usual cancel, where it's canceled by going from air to ground, it's the other way around, lol.

Why does no hitbox appear in that case (or on slopes? or on upward moving platforms?)? I think my above explanation is pretty decent for now. What's your explanation?

So? Occam's Razor.

Occam's Razor has many objections. It does not always succeed in defending a principle just because that principle is more simple than another.

 

[AtotheZ]

What is the input order for a fully horizontal DJC Nair for Yoshi? I can't seem to get it consistently at all. Is it as hard as I think it is?

 

[Sangoku]

Hold a direction (left or right) -> press c (first jump) -> press c (second jump) -> release the joystick -> press a (nair) -> press z. If your Yoshi doesn't really go horizontally, you're probably releasing the joystick too early (before the second jump) and if your Yoshi does a fair, you're probably releasing the joystick too late (after pressing a).

 

[Chaostatic]

Does using Pika's up B completely stop your momentum?

I used to think it did, but there's been numerous times where I've finished a combo really low on DL and then when I go use my Up B to get back to the stage, it starts and I get my invincibility and stuff, but then right as I'm about to shoot up I die lol.

Is it possible that the really fast part of Pika's up B (is it called Agility?) makes Pika's hurt box taller (and skinner?) and that I'm close enough to the bottom blast zone that the extended hurt box actually crosses into blast zone territory and kills me?

Lol. I know this is worded funny. Sorry. ^_^

 

[Sangoku]

You always have interesting questions lol.

When you do an Up-B with Pika, he almost stops, then falls again a little bit before going up (ie he falls while he's static with blue invincible frames). It goes something like: he falls with a speed of 52 normally (no fast fall), then when you press Up-B, it goes to 0.8, then gain 0.8 every frame (0.16, 0.24, ...) until 16, then he goes up with a speed of 330 lol.

Edit: this is also why you sometimes cancel the Up-B at a ledge during the static phase, if you're close enough that the little fall makes you grab the ledge.

 

[Chaostatic]

Ah that makes sense. Good stuff good stuff.

I have another question regarding invincibility. While invincible, is a character still "present" or are they pretty much nonexistent at that moment.

I know that this sounds confusing, so let me explain. There are a few scenarios I'm thinking of:

Note: in each example, assume that the character has an arbitrarily long amount of invincibility relative to the example.

1) The hyrule tornados and the spinning barrel on congo -- will they scoop you up if you're invincible? (I kind of feel like a n00b for not knowing this off the top of my head lol.)

2) The cloud on Yoshi's stage -- if you're invincible, will the cloud recognize that you're still on it and disappear after a while?

3) Pokemon from pokeballs -- will pokemon like Hitmonlee still shoot after you if you're invincible?

4) The Pokemon door on Saffron -- will a pokemon still come out if you walk inside while invincible?

I know that this is a weird question, but i hope the examples helped. I'm just trying to figure out the extent to which a character is "existent" if they're invincible.

Blah i suck at wording things. Let me know if i need to clarify something.

 

[Han Solo]

All of those things you can test yourself in training mode and don't require any frame data to know.

 

[M!nt]

1) The hyrule tornados and the spinning barrel on congo -- will they scoop you up if you're invincible? (I kind of feel like a n00b for not knowing this off the top of my head lol.)

barrel yes, tornado no

2) The cloud on Yoshi's stage -- if you're invincible, will the cloud recognize that you're still on it and disappear after a while?

yes

3) Pokemon from pokeballs -- will pokemon like Hitmonlee still shoot after you if you're invincible?

yes

4) The Pokemon door on Saffron -- will a pokemon still come out if you walk inside while invincible?

yes

 

[Chaostatic]

barrel yes, tornado no

yes

yes

yes

Thanks. I know that there are a few different types of invincibility. Are these answers in respect to the type of invincibility you'd get from the star item, where things can still hit you, you just take no damage or knock back, or are these answers respective of the type of invincibility you'd get from pika's up B, where attacks will literally go right through you.

I should have said this lol, but in my original question, I was more so referring to the type of invincibility you'd get from pika's up B (which is why I couldn't test it myself, Solo), because it almost seems like the character disappears completely (except for the animation, obviously) for the 3 or so frames he's invincible.

 

[rpotts]

Thanks. I know that there are a few different types of invincibility. Are these answers in respect to the type of invincibility you'd get from the star item, where things can still hit you, you just take no damage or knock back, or are these answers respective of the type of invincibility you'd get from pika's up B, where attacks will literally go right through you.

I should have said this lol, but in my original question, I was more so referring to the type of invincibility you'd get from pika's up B (which is why I couldn't test it myself, Solo), because it almost seems like the character disappears completely (except for the animation, obviously) for the 3 or so frames he's invincible.

The distinction you're looking for is invincibility vs intangibility. In terms of hurtboxes a green hurtbox is invincible, which can still be hit and receive hitlag but takes no damage or knockback. This is the kind of hurtbox you have when you drop from the respawn platform, use a star item, Yoshi's parry, during your throw animation, etc. These are in contrast with blue intagibility hurtboxes, which pass straight through attacks without being hit or receiving hitlag and no sound plays. Examples include Pikachu's upb, jumping OoS, after Jiggly's rest, etc.

In terms of your questions about whether or not your character is "there" in terms of spawning/causing stage hazards I believe they do not discrimate against the various hurtbox types. That is, you will cause the clouds on Yoshi's Story to disappear regarardless of whether or not you're invincible, intangible, or a normal vulnerable hurtbox. I believe the same can be said for Pokeballs, Saffron's Pokemon, etc.

Also, Pikachu's upb startup is intangible for 20 frames, not 3, lol.

When you do an Up-B with Pika, he almost stops, then falls again a little bit before going up (ie he falls while he's static with blue invincible frames). It goes something like: he falls with a speed of 52 normally (no fast fall), then when you press Up-B, it goes to 0.8, then gain 0.8 every frame (0.16, 0.24, ...) until 16, then he goes up with a speed of 330 lol.

Lrn2maths

 

[Chaostatic]

That was literally like the best answer i could have asked for lol. Thank you. I need to work on my technical terms, I've never even heard of intangibility before aha.

 

[rpotts]

No problem, glad to help. I've heard it used but mostly just to distinguish between green and blue hurtboxes, in practice people just refer to both as invincibility, but that can occasionally lead to confusion like you just experienced, lol.

 

[Sangoku]

The distinction you're looking for is invincibility vs intangibility. In terms of hurtboxes a green hurtbox is invincible, which can still be hit and receive hitlag but takes no damage or knockback. This is the kind of hurtbox you have when you drop from the respawn platform, use a star item, Yoshi's parry, during your throw animation, etc. These are in contrast with blue intagibility hurtboxes, which pass straight through attacks without being hit or receiving hitlag and no sound plays. Examples include Pikachu's upb, jumping OoS, after Jiggly's rest, etc.

In terms of your questions about whether or not your character is "there" in terms of spawning/causing stage hazards I believe they do not discrimate against the various hurtbox types. That is, you will cause the clouds on Yoshi's Story to disappear regarardless of whether or not you're invincible, intangible, or a normal vulnerable hurtbox. I believe the same can be said for Pokeballs, Saffron's Pokemon, etc.

Also, Pikachu's upb startup is intangible for 20 frames, not 3, lol.


Lrn2maths

Meant 1.6, 2.4. I wrote in a rush and still arrived late at school because of this. And I personally never say intangibility, I simply precise blue or green everytime.

 

[rpotts]

Meant 1.6, 2.4. I wrote in a rush and still arrived late at school because of this.

Lrn2priorities

 

[KeroKeroppi]

Meant 1.6, 2.4. I wrote in a rush and still arrived late at school because of this.

sucks to suck

 

[Sangoku]

I see how it is kero.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

I see how it is kero.

[collapse=] did anyone else notice that weird ass green wannabee namekian next to goku

that guy is freaky

 

[Chaostatic]

Meant 1.6, 2.4. I wrote in a rush and still arrived late at school because of this.

Lol my bad!

 

[Sangoku]

No, I learned my lesson. I won't answer next time, that way I won't get ten posts making fun of me following. Ask Kero if you have another question.

 

[rpotts]

I'm sorry I repent please don't take my soul I love you.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

Now you've made him mad. Thanks a lot, rpotts! This is all your fault!

I'm honored that Bangoku entrusts me as the frame master and considers me the most knowledge-full poster on the boards, but the day i start answering questions will be the downfall of this community.

tl;dr - bangoku wants to destroy the community

 

[Cobrevolution]

saw this in the index but this is the better place for it

so there are the 5 stick jump heights of varying sizes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqIrZRA1XDs) and the two c button jumps. are the different walk speed jumps also different from those? so like, is a 3rd walking speed full hop the same height as a certain stick jump? or are there even more heights that are seldom utilized?

 

[kys]

This is only slightly smash related, but I don't care.

I use 3rd party xbox 360 controllers for smash. On all of them, the x-button gets worn out and won't spring back after a while. Sometimes it just gets sticky, and a little rubbing alcohol fixes the problem, but I'm pretty sure that the spring itself has gone on a couple of them.

Is there any way to fix this? If I open the controller and mess with the spring, will it come back. Or are these controllers crappy and when the springs go, it's done? I'm sick of buying a new controller every 9 months or so.

Also, sorry for interrupting Cobr's question, please answer his first.

 

[Cobrevolution]

i bet you could've gotten a wired 1st party instead of multiple 3rd party ones and it would've lasted longer. that would be my advice now, too - just spend the extra 20

 

[Sangoku]

saw this in the index but this is the better place for it

so there are the 5 stick jump heights of varying sizes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqIrZRA1XDs) and the two c button jumps. are the different walk speed jumps also different from those? so like, is a 3rd walking speed full hop the same height as a certain stick jump? or are there even more heights that are seldom utilized?

By "walk speed jumps", do you mean the lower jumps because you input left/right during the transition between ground and air? If so, then I don't see why you would be interested in it being different than every stick jumps. Like would it matter if a stick jump gave you 820, the next one 830 and the lower full hop 825? I mean you wouldn't see the difference anyway. But concerning Fox, a lower full hop is the same height as a stick jump of 63/128.

Edit: oh I see you completely misunderstood the stick jumps. There aren't 5 stick jumps. Semp's video was just showing a few possible stick jumps. I'm going to repeat myself once more, but there are as many stick jumps as there are values between 53 and 80.

I'll order all the jumps:

lower short hop (incorrectly called running short hop) < short hop < lower stick jumpS < lower full hop (incorrectly called running full hop) < higher stick jumpS < full hop < even higher stick jumpS.

So stick jumps can span anything between something higher than a short hop until the highest jump possible.

 

[Cobrevolution]

so there are technically 27 different heights..jesus

what i mean by walk speed jumps - we all know a running jump is shorter than a standing (ie, pikachu's running or slanted c button jump can't get him to the main stage of hyrule from the right side, but his slanted stick jump can).

BUT, if you're walking at the slowest walking speed, then when you jump, it will be a different height than if you're walking at the next fastest walking speed. i'm just curious if these values are shared by stick jumps, or if they are totally different heights as well.

 

[Sangoku]

The only thing that influence a stick jump height is the y-coordinate value inputted. That's why a running stick jump gets you as high as a standing stick jump.

Also I didn't know there was a continuum of height depending how far you push the joystick horizontally between the ground/air transition frame... Looks like there are even more jumps than I expected.

 

[mixa]

Also I didn't know there was a continuum of height depending how far you push the joystick horizontally between the ground/air transition frame...

I didn't either until I saw a fox doing a very peculiar short hop which I could not emulate on keyboard (you jump inplace but with the backflip animation). it also sheds some light into the discussion I had with B-link some time ago.

 

[Zeds]

That's why a running stick jump gets you as high as a standing stick jump.

smokin' on dem stick jumps again sangoku?

 

[AtotheZ]

So my Fox is finally at a technical level that I appreciate, and I can finally do cool things with it

So which whose Fox(es) should I be watching for high level play and varying application? Any specific vids?

 

[Mr Bushido]

Just wait til Sangoku-san uploads some clips of those .krecs I had with LD. Oh lawdie

 

[Han Solo]

Is puff's utilt the same size as kirby's?

 

[Madao]

Is puff's utilt the same size as kirby's?

Their hitboxes have the same size but use a different bone and Kirby's 2nd hitbox is further apart. So I think Kirby's has a bit longer range due to it being spread out more.

 

[rpotts]

My old PS2/N64 Adapter quit working and I need to buy a new one, anything I should look into other than the May Flash one?

 

[Battlecow]

raphnettttt

 

[rpotts]

Anywhere to buy it other than directly from there website for 29.99 CAD? Worth it over the Mayflash?