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[Illuminatus]

This is probably a dumb question, but I've been watching competitive smash videos for a long time and I always hear stuff like, "wow that was great DI!" or, "not much DI there". What else besides holding the control stick in one direction or another is required for "good DI"? Can someone explain to me exactly how to DI well? Is it just reacting quickly? Mashing the control stick harder? Some sort of input I don't know about?

 

[Han Solo]

This is probably a dumb question, but I've been watching competitive smash videos for a long time and I always hear stuff like, "wow that was great DI!" or, "not much DI there". What else besides holding the control stick in one direction or another is required for "good DI"? Can someone explain to me exactly how to DI well? Is it just reacting quickly? Mashing the control stick harder? Some sort of input I don't know about?

DI in this game isn't like it is in Melee. DI in this game is Smash DI in Melee. This means when you're getting hit, you can mash or "****" (you'll see what that means in just a second) in a certain direction to change the final position of where your character is at after getting hit.

Watch this video. This is the best video ever.

 

[Illuminatus]

DI in this game isn't like it is in Melee. DI in this game is Smash DI in Melee. This means when you're getting hit, you can mash or "****" (you'll see what that means in just a second) in a certain direction to change the final position of where your character is at after getting hit.

Watch this video. This is the best video ever.

Wow, thanks a lot. This is EXACTLY what I needed. Where do you guys find these awesome videos? I feel like I can never find good smash 64 tech videos.

Also, just to clarify, are you saying that holding the control stick in the opposite direction does nothing to reduce knockback?

 

[Sangoku]

Han Solo is exaggerating, this video is merely showing a little aspect of DI.

Just to add on the same note, if we look at a hit chronologically it's something like this:

Hit -> Hitlag starts (ie frames during which both characters are frozen) -> character is knocked back and suffers from hitstun (can't do anything) -> character is out of hitstun (can move).

When we say DI, 99.9% of the time we're referring to what you can do during hitlag. Each time you input a direction (right, away, right, for example) by either mashing or sliding your character will move a little bit from his initial position. Then you receive knockback and you can't do anything. Some people also call DI the last part: when you're out of hitstun, you can move your character horizontally in the air, therefore influencing his direction. However this isn't the way it should be used. Hope I didn't add confusion.

edit: your post appeared while I was writing. This video was made by me so I linked it in smashboards, that's how others know its existence. And yes you can't do anything about knockback, really you can only change the initial position and sometimes that will make you hit a wall, thus reducing knockback.

 

[mixa]

When we say DI, 99.9% of the time we're referring to what you can do during hitlag.

I've just began thinking about hitstun, hitlag, and that DI window = hitlag. What is the 0.01% about?

Where do you guys find these awesome videos? I feel like I can never find good smash 64 tech videos.

here are some

 

[DMoogle]

DI in this game isn't like it is in Melee. DI in this game is Smash DI in Melee. This means when you're getting hit, you can mash or "****" (you'll see what that means in just a second) in a certain direction to change the final position of where your character is at after getting hit.

Watch this video. This is the best video ever.

Holy crap, this is easily the most comprehensive DI video I've seen. Well-freaking-done SquallSSB.

Couple of factors that I would add:

1. The actual timing of DI (which Sangoku talked about).
2. Physical input techniques (e.g. **** DI).
3. Fox's up-airs advice is a little off. Whether you want to DI up or down isn't just a factor of your current positioning, but also your weight. Jigglypuff is almost always going to want to DI up (because the first hit shoots her so far up), whereas DK is almost always going to want to DI down.

 

[mixa]

Fox's up-airs advice is a little off. Whether you want to DI up or down isn't just a factor of your current positioning, but also your weight. Jigglypuff is almost always going to want to DI up (because the first hit shoots her so far up), whereas DK is almost always going to want to DI down.

Good advice, hadn't thought about that. Though I think inputting the correct side, as to not cross the attack, is more important than getting the Up or Down right. Which is what happened here.

And unless the first-hit-of-the-Uair (when are we gonna get a name for this?) operates differently from other attacks, it's not weight that matters, but vertical kill resistance, which is close enough to weight but yeah.

 

[Madao]

I recommend you guys do some DI testing by giving yourself infinite hitlag. I'm trying it right now and it's pretty interesting. I'm already seeing an improvement after a few mins of testing . A lot of things stop functioning while hitlag is on, like gravity. So far I tested DI with Mario and Link and they move the same amount during DI.

Does anyone understand the input delay? I was trying the DI frame by frame and at first I was only able to move like once every 3 frames, but then I just kept pressing different directions and was able to move every frame. Seems like you need to anticipate the input delay.

 

[mixa]

I recommend you guys do some DI testing by giving yourself infinite hitlag.

I don't know what you mean here.

Does anyone understand the input delay?

There is always a delay of one frame. When you input anything (jump, attack, DI, really anything) it won't start on the next frame, but a frame after. (source)

 

[Madao]

I don't know what you mean here.

I labeled hitlag as freeze frames in my table. Go to training mode, then once you load the match, set freeze frames to a high number (like 50 or higher) and freeze the value. Once you do that, let the cpu hit you (setting cpu level to 9 speeds this up). Once they hit you, put them back in standing mode and you are free to DI forever lol.

There is always a delay of one frame. When you input anything (jump, attack, DI, really anything) it won't start on the next frame, but a frame after. (source)

Thanks. That thread needs to get bumped and updated! Lol i should read guides more often before I start exploring stuff to save me some time. I guess the extra frames delayed was also because I was only going in 1 direction. The info is spot on.

 

[Sangoku]

I've just began thinking about hitstun, hitlag, and that DI window = hitlag. What is the 0.01% about?

As I said in the other post, some people call DI the direction change you make in the air once out of hitstun. I haven't seen that way of saying on smashboards (fortunately) and it shouldn't be adopted.

Holy crap, this is easily the most comprehensive DI video I've seen. Well-freaking-done SquallSSB.

Thank you.

1. Fox's up-airs advice is a little off. Whether you want to DI up or down isn't just a factor of your current positioning, but also your weight. Jigglypuff is almost always going to want to DI up (because the first hit shoots her so far up), whereas DK is almost always going to want to DI down.

Ah didn't think of that when I made the video, but that does make sense, thanks for the clarification.

I recommend you guys do some DI testing by giving yourself infinite hitlag. I'm trying it right now and it's pretty interesting. I'm already seeing an improvement after a few mins of testing . A lot of things stop functioning while hitlag is on, like gravity. So far I tested DI with Mario and Link and they move the same amount during DI.

Does anyone understand the input delay? I was trying the DI frame by frame and at first I was only able to move like once every 3 frames, but then I just kept pressing different directions and was able to move every frame. Seems like you need to anticipate the input delay.

Smash DI is "direction, away, direction, away". So it's one input every two frames. But because of the one image delay, you'll see the character moving when you don't input anything.

Thanks. That thread needs to get bumped and updated! Lol i should read guides more often before I start exploring stuff to save me some time. I guess the extra frames delayed was also because I was only going in 1 direction. The info is spot on.

I know I should update the guide, might do it if I find the courage. But the guide is supposed to be something directly linked to the gameplay (although a bit technical), so the goal wasn't to talk about memory addresses/pointers and other things. Otherwise I would have added all your work and Toomai's.

 

[Madao]

Smash DI is "direction, away, direction, away". So it's one input every two frames. But because of the one image delay, you'll see the character moving when you don't input anything.


I know I should update the guide, might do it if I find the courage. But the guide is supposed to be something directly linked to the gameplay (although a bit technical), so the goal wasn't to talk about memory addresses/pointers and other things. Otherwise I would have added all your work and Toomai's.

I do more than just find addresses . I found a bunch of formulas and wrote them down. When I finish what I got, would you want me to post some formulas in that thread? So far I got Handicap formula, hitstun, hitlag, jumping, and I'm nearly done with knockback (I don't just mean the basic formula, but to factor all possible scenarios). You could also add the frame window for Z Cancelling which is 11. I will double check to see if teching has the same window (which I'm almost certain it does). I'm not sure if I will ever totally complete knockback, because there were a few confusing things I haven't figured out yet (stuff like wall bouncing and spiking enemies who are standing on the ground). I'm also writing down character physics (like Metal Mario and Giant DK). I did find part of the DI formula, but since I use a bad controller it's kinda hard to properly test. So far I know it's 2.1 x some input number. When I go straight in 1 direction, i move at the speed of 2.1 x 80 which = 168.
Also if you do decide to update your thread, Ant-D's frame data is wrong so we should update it with the correct data.

 

[DMoogle]

Also if you do decide to update your thread, Ant-D's frame data is wrong so we should update it with the correct data.

I've seen two versions of Ant-D's frame data before, I'd definitely like to know the correct ones.

 

[MrMarbles]

i thought the window for z-cancelling was 20 frames?

 

[Madao]

I've seen two versions of Ant-D's frame data before, I'd definitely like to know the correct ones.

Well if anyone was willing to write down the frame data, I believe looking at Toomai's moveset data would be good enough (+ it would save them a lot of time). I've collected most of the frame data for Fox and it matches what I see for Fox in his chart. I could do it myself, but I'd rather focus other things that no one else has done. I plan on doing a few more characters if no one else works on frame data.

i thought the window for z-cancelling was 20 frames?

Not only did I find the code, but I manually tested it. Any time you press Z or R, in the next frame, the aerial frame counter goes to 0. When it's time to land and you are in the middle of your aerial attack, it checks whether the aerial frame counter is below 11. If you had cheat engine and emulator, you would be able to see what I'm talking about.

I might as well post the gameshark code for those who don't have / want to use cheat engine.
80150A3F 00?? . With this code, you can set the frame window anywhere from 0 to 255.

 

[Sangoku]

I do more than just find addresses . I found a bunch of formulas and wrote them down. When I finish what I got, would you want me to post some formulas in that thread? So far I got Handicap formula, hitstun, hitlag, jumping, and I'm nearly done with knockback (I don't just mean the basic formula, but to factor all possible scenarios). You could also add the frame window for Z Cancelling which is 11. I will double check to see if teching has the same window (which I'm almost certain it does). I'm not sure if I will ever totally complete knockback, because there were a few confusing things I haven't figured out yet (stuff like wall bouncing and spiking enemies who are standing on the ground). I'm also writing down character physics (like Metal Mario and Giant DK). I did find part of the DI formula, but since I use a bad controller it's kinda hard to properly test. So far I know it's 2.1 x some input number. When I go straight in 1 direction, i move at the speed of 2.1 x 80 which = 168.
Also if you do decide to update your thread, Ant-D's frame data is wrong so we should update it with the correct data.

Sure, once you have this you can bump the thread any time. I know Ant-D's data is mostly wrong, so I'd be glad to put the correct data if you link me to it. Are you sure z-cancelling isn't 10 frames? I thought it was starting from the 11th frame before touching the ground, but because of the one frame delay, you couldn't z-cancel on the last frame, so 11-1=10. Maybe I'm wrong though.

 

[Madao]

Sure, once you have this you can bump the thread any time. I know Ant-D's data is mostly wrong, so I'd be glad to put the correct data if you link me to it. Are you sure z-cancelling isn't 10 frames? I thought it was starting from the 11th frame before touching the ground, but because of the one frame delay, you couldn't z-cancel on the last frame, so 11-1=10. Maybe I'm wrong though.

If I'm bored enough this week, I can make an auto cancel chart for aerial attacks.
Ya the frame window is confusing for multiple reasons. I used to think it was 10, until I realised it's 0-10 not 1-10, for the frame counting lol. In a sense, you're right in that the last frame won't work, but the window is still 11. You have to press it 1 frame early so the window is 12th last frame to 2nd last frame.

Do you guys know how to read Toomai's moveset data? Lol I remember being so confused when I first looked at it, but over time, I started understanding more of it. In fact, I was able to copy and paste Link's PAL data into the file and I was able to see the difference between PAL and NTSC's moveset for Link. I didn't bother finishing the other characters for PAL because it takes me like 20 mins to copy and paste the data correctly for 1 character. I'll try and learn tricks to make this stuff easier and faster to do. Someone else could write down most of the frame data needed. I'd do it, but I'd rather do other things so I hope someone else is willing to do it.

In the meantime, I'll be finishing up what I've been working on. Also for the data posting, would you prefer I upload the text files, or just take a screenshot of it and post a picture?

The next time I'm bored and feel like discovering something new, what are some things I should look into? I'm running out of ideas ;/.

 

[mixa]

Also for the data posting, would you prefer I upload the text files, or just take a screenshot of it and post a picture?

I'd prefer a screenshot.

Do you guys know how to read Toomai's moveset data?

I'm starting to get the hang of it, but there are still some things I don't understand. For example, I was doing a table of start-up time for the grab hitboxes, and I couldn't make sense of the data for Samus' grab.

what are some things I should look into?

Not... new, but right now I'm trying to find out more about Fox's airborne lasering, basically how hard (frame window) it is to do a slanted short hop double laser / slanted c-jump triple laser.

And I'd also like to know

(1) If all Wall DI is the same. If once hitting any vertical wall (I wonder how the tent behaves in that sense), regardless of how far away or how good/intense the DI was, the result would be the same in terms of knockback.

And if (1) is true,

(2) Can we express how much a wall DI can save you in percentual terms or it just depends?

For example, I tested Mario's upsmash on Falcon:
• Without wall DI, Falcon dies at 93%
• With wall DI, Falcon dies at 128%

So, in that case, wall DI makes you ~38% more resistant. Would this be true for other characters vs other vertical kills? If we find an attack that kills at 100%, will it kill at 138% with Wall DI?

 

[Madao]

Aight so I guess for small charts, I'll post pictures and for the larger stuff I will try out google docs. Lol I need to take advantage of technology these days. Learning how to use certain tools would save me many hours. I need to learn excel and other data stuff, so that I can make more charts and collect data faster since doing it by hand takes ages.

Lol I'm not that pro at the game (I'm more of a Melee & Brawl player), but when you say wall DI, you are refering to wall bouncing after DI? I was testing wall bouncing earlier today. So far I know that it seems to change the deceleration speed and lowers hitstun by a significant amount.

Also I'm kinda lost right now with knockback because I could have sworn that when the person got hit while moving, sometimes the knockback would be slightly different. I tried it again recently and haven't seen that happen. I'm wondering if it was just a glitch (I know I wasn't just seeing things) or if I should do more testing to confirm. It's kind of a hassle for me to test this because I only have 1 controller, so i have to use keyboard to control player 2.

I'm not done yet, but I can tell you that knockback distance is not linear. The timing of when things happen make a difference. For example Kirby's Up Smash vs Mario with 80 damage as an example. 16%, 1.2 Knockback Scale, 20 Base Kb, and 90 Angle.
Knockback of fresh upsmash will be 186.751984 if Mario is standing. The Max Y Distance will be 6303.825195 . Hitstun will be 99.
If Mario is crouched, knockback = 124.501328. The Max Y Distance will be 2247.565186. Hitstun will be 66.
As you can see reducing intial knockback by 1/3 does not mean the total distance will be reduced by 1/3.

Wait # means it waits x number of frames before continuing. After # means that it the code starts during that frame #. So if the table says After 4, then turns hitbox on, then you know hitbox starts at frame # 4. Wait can be tricky if you don't know the frame # before that. You will have to use a frame counter (my table has it if you need it). I like Nemu since I can just set breakpoints and see what the frame count ='s when the breakpoint happens.

Idk how much I'll be willing to look into DI since my controller kinda sucks & me only having 1 controller makes it a hassle. I guess I could make a hotkey to swap controller ports, but still I'd prefer someone else do DI testing. I will look into wall bouncing though, since my plan is to fully understand the game's physics.

Wall bouncing will be very hard to actually calculate unless you know exactly how many frames it takes to touch the wall. Maybe I could see if setting a variable for the location of the object would work.

Is there someone who would be willing to compile a list of the damage and knockback values for each character? It's a hassle scrolling through big data files, and I'm sure some people here still don't know how to read Toomai's data sheet.

 

[SSBPete]

On the apex thread it says it will be going from the 17th to the 19th. Can someone please tell me when the smash 64 tourney will be held? Thanks

 

[MrMarbles]

i was wondering the same thing

 

[Madao]

Not... new, but right now I'm trying to find out more about Fox's airborne lasering, basically how hard (frame window) it is to do a slanted short hop double laser / slanted c-jump triple laser.

Well first of all, you have to measure how much time you have in the air. If I'm bored, I could make a jumping physics calculator, but that probably won't happen for a while unless I get all my other work done quicker than expected.
What I can tell you is the frame window for his air lasers. For air lasers, set flag activates on frame #15 (so at frame 14 you can press B since 1 frame input delay). When set flag is active, that means you can shoot again. If you're standing on ground, set flag starts at frame #29.

And unless the first-hit-of-the-Uair (when are we gonna get a name for this?) operates differently from other attacks, it's not weight that matters, but vertical kill resistance, which is close enough to weight but yeah.

Just to clarify on this. For Y-Velocity, weight, max fall speed, and fall speed acceleration are the 3 factors. Think of weight as knockback resistance.

 

[Sangoku]

Running SHDL is frame perfect btw. Testing it with classic TAS should take 5 seconds lol.

 

[Yobolight]

What do people think is the most difficult match up in the game? I think it is Ness vs Kirby on DL.

 

[Cobrevolution]

samus vs anyone anywhere.

 

[clubbadubba]

^^johns johns johns.

in all seriousNESS though, kirby v ness seems pretty rough

lots of link/luigi matchups vs high tiers are pretty rough too, and samus vs fox/falcon is pretty bad.

If I had to pick the worst it'd prolly be fox vs one of the low tier characters who just cannot catch him at all. Maybe ness or luigi or link.

 

[Sangoku]

Playing as Jiggly against Luigi. Right Star King?

 

[KeroKeroppi]

vs.

on

and by

I mean

 

[Olikus]

fox vs samus on hyrule. fox vs DK on hyrule. Pika vs link on DL. Falcon vs Link on DL. Kirby vs ness on DL.

pretty horrible MU.

 

[clubbadubba]

yoshi v luigi

real talk

 

[asianaussie]

luigi vs everyone, but especially fox on hyrule

how do you even deal with feeling so helpless

 

[breakthrough]

So I just want to confirm. For some reason I'm under the impression that I've read Samus gets out of hitstun (or something to that effect) faster than other characters. True/false? Any explanation? I feel like she gets out of falcon uair's WAY faster than most other characters (maybe with the exception of Jiggly, but I'm not sure on that one - just a personal feel in that MU)

 

[MrMarbles]

So I just want to confirm. For some reason I'm under the impression that I've read Samus gets out of hitstun (or something to that effect) faster than other characters. True/false? Any explanation? I feel like she gets out of falcon uair's WAY faster than most other characters (maybe with the exception of Jiggly, but I'm not sure on that one - just a personal feel in that MU)

i cant confirm this but i don't think she gets out fast a think it just FEELS faster cuz she is so floaty that it takes her longer to come down, and as a result combos are slower against her. same as jiggly.

 

[clubbadubba]

So I just want to confirm. For some reason I'm under the impression that I've read Samus gets out of hitstun (or something to that effect) faster than other characters. True/false? Any explanation? I feel like she gets out of falcon uair's WAY faster than most other characters (maybe with the exception of Jiggly, but I'm not sure on that one - just a personal feel in that MU)

she gets less hitstun then most characters (all but dk I think) because she's so heavy

 

[asianaussie]

she's the second or third heaviest (i think link is kinda heavy too), but since she's so floaty it gives the impression she is getting out earlier than others despite flying the same distance

i think

 

[MrMarbles]

she gets less hitstun then most characters (all but dk I think) because she's so heavy

didn't know weight had an impact on hitstun. thats interesting

 

[Sangoku]

From Madao: Hitstun = Knockback / 1.875 and knockback is a function of weight. Now Y-fall acceleration play a role as well and probably x-resistance too, I'm unsure when. If it's not in the knockback formula, then knockback strictu sensu has a different definition from what we've always called knockback. Simply put, floaties go farther than what they should when you hit one. As a result, it looks like it's a normal character getting hit at higher percent, but getting out of hitstun quicker. Don't know if that makes things any clearer.

 

[Madao]

From Madao: Hitstun = Knockback / 1.875 and knockback is a function of weight. Now Y-fall acceleration play a role as well and probably x-resistance too, I'm unsure when. If it's not in the knockback formula, then knockback strictu sensu has a different definition from what we've always called knockback. Simply put, floaties go farther than what they should when you hit one. As a result, it looks like it's a normal character getting hit at higher percent, but getting out of hitstun quicker. Don't know if that makes things any clearer.

I don't think x-Air resistance plays a role in knockback velocity. I tried testing it earlier today and landed in the same exact spot, regardless of how high or low I put the resistance. I think it only effects your mobility in the air. There may be something obscure I missed, but for the most part, it does nothing for knockback.

The character's max fall speed and fall acceleration effect vertical velocity, so Samus has an advantage in some aspects because she's heavy and floaty at the same time. She has the highest resistance to spiking although her recovery is bad anyway lol.

 

[Sangoku]

Okay I wasn't sure. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[breakthrough]

As a result, it looks like it's a normal character getting hit at higher percent, but getting out of hitstun quicker.

So is that saying she does get out of hitstun quicker?