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[rpotts]

According to Antd's attack start-up data ( http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p2VcZS6YDXFZBqNHNze3oUw&gid=2 ), upB has 9 frames while dair has 6 frames of start-up lag. So if you can get into the air within 2 frames, then jump-->dair is faster. If you can jump by 3 frames, they are equal. Otherwise, upB is faster. But I don't have any data on the pre-jump animations nor on what frame you can do a dair the earliest so...

Well links jump has the longest startup lag, and i pretty sure it's like 10 frames or something. more than 2 atleast. UpB is probably your best bet speed wise, but has way more ending lag than a z-canceled dair so it's pretty situational.

 

[dch111]

Yeah, I'd probably go with a SH dair in most cases, unless I was pretty certain they'd be in range of the good part of my upB.

 

[Berserker.]

Hey guys about Kirby, I collected the percents of Kirby's U-smash lock--ish: (Check if you want to):

|Sweetspotted U-smash|
DK: 70%
Link: 64%
Yoshi: 64%
Ness: 58%
Fox: 58%
Samus: 58%
Mario: 52%
Kirby: 46%
Pikachu: 46%
Luigi: 46%
Jigglypuff: 40%

 

[dch111]

Usmash "lock"? I'm confused.

 

[rpotts]

Me too... I'm trying to figure out what he means by comparing dmg's but i've got nothing. btw, there's no falcon on that list...

 

[Berserker.]

Whoops I forgot that...

Why is it called U-smash lock?
You can consecutively U-smash enemies with Kirby's U-smash. The data isn't exact because it stales so the data is dependant. I'm gonna make a new one anyway

New chart:
NOTE: All of this starts at 0%
_________________
Character|U-smashes
Luigi|x6
Mario|x6
DK|x9
Link|x8
Samus|x6
Captain Falcon|(Impossible) x1-2
Ness|x6
Yoshi|x8
Kirby|x6
Fox|(Impossible) x1
Pikachu|x6
Jiggly|x4

 

[ciaza]

^Usmashes or utilts?

 

[asianaussie]

U-Smashes? What? I thought it was too laggy to pull out unless you baited or something.

 

[Berserker.]

It's baited

 

[MattNF]

I'm pretty sure the USmash "lock" is escapable.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I know for a fact that a bunch of those characters such as Yoshi can easily escape. The move is overall way too slow.

 

[Fireblaster]

The only characters that can "usmash lock" are falcon, pikachu, and link, and maybe DK against fastfallers.

 

[Little England]

I think you can DI out of Link's depending on where you are caught in it. dunno...

Serious question. How do you play Samus?

She can't approach or camp, combo effectively, or recover. I'm trying to figure out new ways to play this character.

 

[ciaza]

^Praying I found is the most effective method. I play Samus super-defensive. Spamming neutral b if they're at a distance, hitting a fair if they try a shuffle and dropping bombos if they get too close. I generraly just rack up dmage until I can hit a basic -dair-bair combo.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I think you can DI out of Link's depending on where you are caught in it. dunno...

Serious question. How do you play Samus?

She can't approach or camp, combo effectively, or recover. I'm trying to figure out new ways to play this character.

back air, bomb, and f-air camp, down air spam vs shields, rotate tap a and f-tilt vs shields for epic results, up b out of combos

Think of playing barlw...in a 64 game

 

[asianaussie]

Think of playing barlw...in a 64 game

Exactly. Except D-Air > finisher is present.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

So is DK's grab release CG really infinite? Me and a friend were discussing this, I doubt it.

 

[Little England]

back air, bomb, and f-air camp, down air spam vs shields, rotate tap a and f-tilt vs shields for epic results, up b out of combos

Think of playing barlw...in a 64 game

This is how I play her. I believe this is the most effective, but it just doesn't cut it Even bairs and dairs trade most of the time. I think fair is her best move. It's her only disjoint(aside from usmash).

The brawl analogy applies, but Samus actually can approach in brawl with missles. Gahhh Samus still sucks.

Edit: Not to mention every single one of her tilts were better in comparison.

 

[dch111]

So is DK's grab release CG really infinite? Me and a friend were discussing this, I doubt it.

It's not true infinite. You can escape somewhat behind DK, or you can escape low and do a dtilt, or another escape action. It's all about who reacts more quickly at the moment of the escape (of course, you also have to know which actions are faster than the regrab otherwise the grab comes out before whatever you wanted to do even if you have good reaction time).

The reason it works so well, is that most people don't have the patience to focus their energy into thwarting it and just try to get out as fast as possible. Especially effective offline since you can hear when your opponent starts mashing buttons to escape and ready your regrab response accordingly.

Also, technically, with optimal escape input, DK shouldn't even be able to do a forward throw (that's right, CPU level 9's don't actually have the fastest possible escape time; this was proven by ant-d somewhere).

 

[remedys]

do people short hop fast fall downa air very often? what about forward/backwarda air?
i never do it and was wondering if i'm missing out.

 

[Daedatheus]

do people short hop fast fall downa air very often? what about forward/backwarda air?
i never do it and was wondering if i'm missing out.

Fastfalling shorthopped aerials is quite rare in this game due to the fact that it is very difficult and you can't fastfall DURING an aerial like in Melee.

Luigi is an example of a character who can fastfall aerials in his shorthop though, since his shorthop is so high.

 

[dch111]

Fast falling before the aerial sometimes cancels the aerial before it even comes out. And since you can't fastfall during an aerial, most aerials are just done with a short hop, and that's it.

Short hop, attack, fastfall, lag-cancel
Not possible.

Short hop, fastfall, attack, lag-cancel
Possible, but applications are limited to characters with fast enough aerials, or high enough short hops (like Luigi). Easiest with dair (since you can input it and the fastfall at almost the same time). Unless your fingers are so fast and precise they can flawlessly switch from the fastfall input to the aerial input in a couple frames so it almost looks like a Melee SHFFL.

Short hop, attack, lag-cancel
Probably the most common.

Slanted full hop, fastfall, attack, lag-cancel
This kind of fastfalled aerial approach is a bit more common than the short hop version.


Edit:
Short hop, attack, attack, lag-cancel
Lol. The Mario brothers can do this because their uairs have the shortest start-up lag of any aerial in the game.

 

[ballin4life]

You can short hop attack fast fall attack l cancel with luigi (dair -> uair for one) or samus.

Also with mario you can short hop fast fall uair

And with most characters you can short hop fast fall dair I think

There's probably more

 

[dch111]

Also with mario you can short hop fast fall uair

This one's a ***** to practice. Especially the version where you fastfall from low platforms. But it's satisfying.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

This is how I play her. I believe this is the most effective, but it just doesn't cut it Even bairs and dairs trade most of the time. I think fair is her best move. It's her only disjoint(aside from usmash).

The brawl analogy applies, but Samus actually can approach in brawl with missles. Gahhh Samus still sucks.

Edit: Not to mention every single one of her tilts were better in comparison.

Well That's how I have played samus..and I know most other people play like this. Wait a minute

Spoiler

It doesn't matter since samus sucks anyway

 

[The Irish Mafia]

Also, does Kirby's utilt have sufficent shield stun to allow another utilt, and therefore break a shield? These are just some thing's I've been toying around with, I finally got my hands on a copy of the game and I'm figuring out what I can

funny story, I was playing as fox and I reflected a red shell a few times, it bounced back at me 4 times in a row with so much hitstun I was hit without moving. I survived somehow. I hadn't unlocked the option to turn off items yet, and I hadn't started to SDI effectively.
you guys must hear hitstun stories all the time, but to me it's so wierd

 

[asianaussie]

Kirby's U-Tilt is renowned for being extraordinarily fast rather than having amazing hitstun (which it probably does anyway, for an U-Tilt). Try trapping a shield against a wall and spamming the tilt - easily enough to break a shield. Alternatively, try U-Tilt x3 + F-Smash against a shield - it'll explode.

 

[Daedatheus]

Also, does Kirby's utilt have sufficent shield stun to allow another utilt, and therefore break a shield?

Yes, sadly.

Utilt x (insert number here) = a shieldbreaker combo. Sometimes you can just utilt -> walk -> utilt -> walk etc. until their shield explodes.

It's stupid, and yet another reason why people hate Kirby's utilt.

Since you're new to the game and wondering, I might as well fill you in on Kirby's utilt.

- Fastest utilt in the game
- Oversized way-bigger-than-it-looks hitbox behind Kirby
- Outprioritizes nearly everything
- Combos heavy to medium characters with more utilts from 0%, leading to an easy 40-70% starting from one utilt followed by repeated utilts
- Breaks shields all by itself, with fsmash to help it out when needed
- Takes no skill
- Is homosexual

 

[asianaussie]

I'm wondering what can Kirby's U-Tilt be homosexual with...

 

[DMoogle]

Sometimes you can just utilt -> walk -> utilt -> walk etc. until their shield explodes.

It's fairly easy to mess this up and accidentally f-tilt instead of u-tilt.

- Fastest utilt in the game

Tied with OR slower than DK's for start-up time (conflicting frame data here), lasts 3 frames longer than Yoshi's (less than everyone else's). From start to finish, however, it is indeed the fastest (16 frames with 7 containing a hitbox).

- Oversized way-bigger-than-it-looks hitbox behind Kirby

Yeah.

- Outprioritizes nearly everything

It matches priority with most ground attacks. It's the air attacks that it excels against.

- Combos heavy to medium characters with more utilts from 0%, leading to an easy 40-70% starting from one utilt followed by repeated utilts

Falcon's up-smash will also get those same heavy-to-medium characters to 40%, and CF generally has WAY better follow-up options.

- Breaks shields all by itself, with fsmash to help it out when needed

Yeah, pretty sweet, huh?

- Takes no skill

Up-tilts are the hardest tilts to perform. It sounds stupid since you (and I) have probably been doing them for forever, but I think most players don't really get them down until after they're out of the "scrub phase." Also, I've heard they're difficult to perform on keyboard.

- Is homosexual

I would say his neutral-B move is quite a lot more so.

 

[asianaussie]

Also, I've heard they're difficult to perform on keyboard.

They're exceptionally easy, it's just that you can't do it without buffering.

 

[Daedatheus]

Falcon's up-smash will also get those same heavy-to-medium characters to 40%, and CF generally has WAY better follow-up options.

True, but if you miss an upsmash you're likely to get punished. If you miss a utilt, you're not in as much trouble.

 

[Dogboy]

in this game you can l cancel kirby's dair into usmash right?
how effective is it?

 

[NixxxoN]

in this game you can l cancel kirby's dair into usmash right?
how effective is it?

Its only effective if your enemy is damaged enough to kill him with the upsmash. In other cases, you have other alternatives like utilt if hes low damage or dtilt if hes near the ledge and edgeguard him, or another dair.

 

[DMoogle]

in this game you can l cancel kirby's dair into usmash right?
how effective is it?

At higher percents, if he misses the tech or can't tech and is bounced into the air, then yeah you can follow up with an up-smash.

Its only effective if your enemy is damaged enough to kill him with the upsmash. In other cases, you have other alternatives like utilt if hes low damage or dtilt if hes near the ledge and edgeguard him, or another dair.

FSmash or DSmash will usually be better follow-ups than d-tilt.

 

[Dogboy]

well, going into utilt could cause a wop on the enemy right?
i havent played ssb64 in a long time, lol. Never got EXTREMELY good at it.

 

[asianaussie]

If you mean WoP as in Wall of Pain, I don't think it exists in 64 as much as Melee...maybe Fox's triple B-Air/F-Air could count, I don't know. Kirby might be able to link two B-Airs together at lower percentages...I don't play Kirby that much...

Just U-Tilt up to five times, depending on whether they can escape, or go for a D-Smash.

 

[ballin4life]

If you mean WoP as in Wall of Pain, I don't think it exists in 64 as much as Melee...maybe Fox's triple B-Air/F-Air could count, I don't know. Kirby might be able to link two B-Airs together at lower percentages...I don't play Kirby that much...

Just U-Tilt up to five times, depending on whether they can escape, or go for a D-Smash.

Kirby can link 3 bairs against falcon for sure.

4 might be possible (maybe against DK or something)

 

[Daedatheus]

I've done and seen some pretty decent chains of fair/bair against light characters with Jigglypuff.

 

[SSBPete]

pika can hit tons of reverse uairs