Are you dissapointed Dark Pit was a clone?

[Wintropy]

This is ridiculous.

The game has been out for months now. Please move on from it and let others be happy. If you don't like the character, fine, but I don't think these threads contribute anything or merit considering it's literally the same argument being rehashed every time it's brought up.

Bottom line: you don't like the character, tough luck. No amount of foot-stamping and criticising Sakurai is going to change it, and it doesn't make a difference in the long run. Nobody is forcing you to play as the character. Just ignore it and move on if it bothers you so much, and please just let the rest of us get on with our lives.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Personaly, I think I would hate Dark Pit if he WASN'T a clone.
Of course, he would be still easy to make, considering Pit, but as a Medusa supporter, my own bias would make me feel like a "took a spot", and I know there's no such thing as taking a spot.

Now, for Dark Pit as a clone. I'm totally fine with him and actually play him more than Pit (although I play them quite rarely). I still love Kid Icarus and it's a good thing that they could add some of Dark Pit's personality.

Yes, Dark Pit's main differences with Pit are the personality, weaponry and victory music. Yes he IS a clone of Pit, even in Kid Icarus. He is recent and all.
Does this mean it's a bad character? He may be a bit cliché at times, but he is cool in Kid Icarus, and it's a good thing we can play him with his staff and all.

As previously said, the only characters that could be clones were Lucina, Doctor Mario, Dark Pit and Alph. I don't count the koopalings, as they couldn't choose one over the others.

Maybe Alph could have been a clone. I still believe that of the 4 "costume character", he is the one that would be harder to differenciate. Doc and Lucina differences are clear, and Dark Pit still have a lot of weaponery to choose.

Alph got the rock pikmin. Yoohoo. And as characters, I doubt that sakurai would change the Pikmin stats.

So maybe out of the three new clones, Dark Pit is the least appealing, but out of the 4 "costumes", Alph is definitely worse as a potential clone to me.

But what is important is that his addition took almost no devellopment time, and it's a good thing for the fans that he is separated.

 

[SimonBarSinister]

Like everyone mentioned probably because he's a clone and 'Sakurai bias'. I use both Pit and Dark Pit as well as both Lucina and Marth and I find it silly how people like to bash Dark Pit because of his clone status and simply because they don't like him. The amount of hate he gets is truly and utterly ridiculous. But then again I don't mind clones too much so...

I don't see that much of a problem with clones either, as I had used clones at some point in Smash's history(more specifically ). But when there's time for little else, what else can be done, really? Clones are bound to exist in some form or another, so why fret over it?

This is ridiculous.

The game has been out for months now. Please move on from it and let others be happy. If you don't like the character, fine, but I don't think these threads contribute anything or merit considering it's literally the same argument being rehashed every time it's brought up.

Bottom line: you don't like the character, tough luck. No amount of foot-stamping and criticising Sakurai is going to change it, and it doesn't make a difference in the long run. Nobody is forcing you to play as the character. Just ignore it and move on if it bothers you so much, and please just let the rest of us get on with our lives.

Exactly this. What's done is done, so there's literally no reason to get bent out of shape over something that happened months ago. Best to just enjoy the game however you can.

 

[Dre89]

Stop saying 'it's been 6 months get over it'. We didn't come in here and make a thread to spread hate. Somone made a threat asking why he gets so much hate, and we're explaining it.

Like everyone mentioned probably because he's a clone and 'Sakurai bias'. I use both Pit and Dark Pit as well as both Lucina and Marth and I find it silly how people like to bash Dark Pit because of his clone status and simply because they don't like him. The amount of hate he gets is truly and utterly ridiculous. But then again I don't mind clones too much so...

It's not just that he's a clone, it's that he's also an one-time character from a tiny franchise.

That's the biggest thing. No one likes getting clones. But in Palette Swap's case it's particularly bad because not only is he a clone, but he's from a tiny franchise that only gets rep due to bias.

People keep saying 'he didn't take anyone's spot it was him or nothing'. No, they could've kept him as an alt and made a more deserving clone within a similar amount of time. Dixie is the prime candidate because she's probably the most popular and deserving character that could function as a clone/semi-clone.

If it was any other developer and they needed a clone to pad out the roster, Palette Swap would not have had even the slightest chance. Priority would have gone to genuinely deserving characters that had potential as clones.

Just accept that you got an undeserving character purely because of director bias. If Retro took over Smash and have us something like Kiddy Kong as a DK clone, I'd accept it was BS and just be happy that I got a character I like. But trying to justify an obviously bias and undeserved inclusion is silly.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Considering Palutena and Robin's trailer and how Lucina and Dark Pit are presented, they clearly decided to add the "costumes" as character after E3 2014.

It's really a short time before the game release, and I doubt that they could add another character (even clone) instead of making "costumes" as characters.

I personaly dislike Doctor Mario as he is Mario (instead of a different character like Dark Pit and Lucina are) but it's not a bad thing that they could add a FLUDD less Mario, something people wanted.

Also, Dixie as a clone would be very awkward with the Rocketbarrel and Peanut gun. I do agree that if one day she is a character, it's likely that she'll borrows animations from Diddy (after all, in Melee, Sheik and Samus shared two aerial animations. Same goes to Peach and Zelda's Dash attack). But if she is semi-clone material, she clearly is not clone material.

The only clone material I can imagine is Daisy, and it would still be awkward with Toad and turnips. I believe she also is semi-clone and not clone material, and no one took their spot.

 

[Dre89]

Considering Palutena and Robin's trailer and how Lucina and Dark Pit are presented, they clearly decided to add the "costumes" as character after E3 2014.

It's really a short time before the game release, and I doubt that they could add another character (even clone) instead of making "costumes" as characters.

I personaly dislike Doctor Mario as he is Mario (instead of a different character like Dark Pit and Lucina are) but it's not a bad thing that they could add a FLUDD less Mario, something people wanted.

Also, Dixie as a clone would be very awkward with the Rocketbarrel and Peanut gun. I do agree that if one day she is a character, it's likely that she'll borrows animations from Diddy (after all, in Melee, Sheik and Samus shared two aerial animations. Same goes to Peach and Zelda's Dash attack). But if she is semi-clone material, she clearly is not clone material.

The only clone material I can imagine is Daisy, and it would still be awkward with Toad and turnips. I believe she also is semi-clone and not clone material, and no one took their spot.

Dixie would have been easy. Give her a hair upb, jab and get up attacks plus the gumball popgun, slightly alter her properties like weight and airspeed and you have a passable Dixie. Obviously I would prefer her to be more unique. But I'd take that over not getting her at all, and I'd definitely take that over undeserving characters like Palette Swap.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Just one question: While I do agree that Dixie would be a nice addition (not on topic but the DK serie suffer from being too close to Mario IMO), do you realise that simply making the 3D model means more work than any of the clones?

They weren't clones simply because they were easy to made, but because they were already in the game.

 

[SimonBarSinister]

Stop saying 'it's been 6 months get over it'. We didn't come in here and make a thread to spread hate. Somone made a threat asking why he gets so much hate, and we're explaining it.

I think we are aware of this fact. We were just pointing out that the hate is still on going and that it more or less should've subsided.

It's not just that he's a clone, it's that he's also an one-time character from a tiny franchise.

That's the biggest thing. No one likes getting clones. But in Palette Swap's case it's particularly bad because not only is he a clone, but he's from a tiny franchise that only gets rep due to bias.

People keep saying 'he didn't take anyone's spot it was him or nothing'. No, they could've kept him as an alt and made a more deserving clone within a similar amount of time. Dixie is the prime candidate because she's probably the most popular and deserving character that could function as a clone/semi-clone.

A more deserving clone? Dixie? How many clones to we actually have in the entirety of Nintendo? I was under the impression that no one would've accepted anything less than Dixie being her own character, not a clone or a Luigified Diddy. As for the whole "tiny franchise" thing, I can't really say much on the matter as I don't really know what Sakurai was thinking at that point in time(does anyone?), but I'm fairly certain that Uprising was a pretty big success and that the characters were much more memorable than they ever were at any point in time in the series' past. That's just my idea, but I could very well be wrong.

Personally, a clone isn't a problem in and of itself, it's just when the character in question starts doing things in the same manner as another character, and you know beyond the shadow of a doubt that they don't work like that, THEN it's a problem. For example, it always bugged me a little whenever someone said that Dark Samus would've just been a clone of Samus. Anyone who played the Prime series and paid any attention to the Dark Samus battles knows that the clone logic makes no sense(she's an assist trophy, I know, but she still fights like how she does in Prime, so there's that). Dark Pit on the other hand, does whatever Pit does, other than the weapons he carries obviously. I find that easier to accept. Oh wait, I should mention the most infamous clone in Smash history: . Like anyone expected him to fight like .

That said, I don't hate clones. Far from it, actually.

 

[Dinoman96]

What I think we seem to be forgetting about is that the clones we have in Smash 4 were initially alternate costumes that were eventually converted into their own character slots. It's pretty obvious that Dixie wasn't and wouldn't be considered to be an alt for Diddy like Doc and Dark Pit were. So really, the pool of possible clone characters were basically:

Dr. Mario
Lucina
Dark Pit
Koopalings
Alph

The Koopalings would never get in as their own slots, and with Olimar being one of Smash's most unique and peculiar characters, I'd reckon they wanted to keep the Pikmin gimmick confined to one slot and Mario, Pit and Marth were generally easier to make clones of.

In other words, it wasn't Dark Pit vs. Dixie or whatever. If anything, it was Dark Pit vs. Alph.

 

[Kikkipoptart12]

People are just mad because X character didn't get in so they want to scream bias and hate Dark Pit. If you mad because of Sakurai Bias then why aren't you mad a Kirby, King De De De or Metaknight or the amount of Kirby things that are in both of the games. Say Sakurai is bias because of Kid Icarus but not of the Kirby franchise the franchise that Sakurai made? The only one I see is bias are the ones that say this type of crap.

 

[LancerStaff]

Or they could have simply ported Smash run to Wii U, after all it is kind of there due to Master fortress. Also why do the Mario Party devs have to make a Metroid? Can't another team do it?

...Settle down a bit man. You're kinda missing the point. I'm saying the blame is, well, mis-blamed. Mario Party replaced Metroid as much as Smash Tour replaced Wolf. Which is to say not at all. Smash Run wouldn't work on Wii U anyway, and I'm sure Smash Tour didn't take nearly as much effort as porting Smash Run over would of. They, again, didn't have the time.

Dixie would have been easy. Give her a hair upb, jab and get up attacks plus the gumball popgun, slightly alter her properties like weight and airspeed and you have a passable Dixie. Obviously I would prefer her to be more unique. But I'd take that over not getting her at all, and I'd definitely take that over undeserving characters like Palette Swap.

Nope. Not enough time. That's what you're not getting. After Lucina and Doc there is not enough time to meet your demands. Dark Pit doesn't have unique moves, stats or properties. Hell, I'd say Dark Pit was left unfinished with that random weaker Ftilt. Would a Dixie with a recolored Popgun that's just worse as a projectile, a Monkey Flip that's worse except for one niche area, and a Ftilt just with terrible KB be satisfying at all to you? Oh, and she grew a tail and doesn't use her hair at all. And that's assuming she had a model and voicework already.

And it's kinda hilarious that you claim he doesn't have fans. We're here aren't we? And probably the best angel player in the West, Nario, first chose edgy here over Mr. Goody-goody because he liked the character. He even got #9 at Apex. People argue that DK fans don't even play Smash because DK is so unpopular a character and 99% of Diddys are just here just for the banana trickery in Brawl or because he's the "best" character now. ZeRo and M2K just say they use him because he's the best right now.

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

...Settle down a bit man. You're kinda missing the point. I'm saying the blame is, well, mis-blamed. Mario Party replaced Metroid as much as Smash Tour replaced Wolf. Which is to say not at all. Smash Run wouldn't work on Wii U anyway, and I'm sure Smash Tour didn't take nearly as much effort as porting Smash Run over would of. They, again, didn't have the time.



Nope. Not enough time. That's what you're not getting. After Lucina and Doc there is not enough time to meet your demands. Dark Pit doesn't have unique moves, stats or properties. Hell, I'd say Dark Pit was left unfinished with that random weaker Ftilt. Would a Dixie with a recolored Popgun that's just worse as a projectile, a Monkey Flip that's worse except for one niche area, and a Ftilt just with terrible KB be satisfying at all to you? Oh, and she grew a tail and doesn't use her hair at all. And that's assuming she had a model and voicework already.

And it's kinda hilarious that you claim he doesn't have fans. We're here aren't we? And probably the best angel player in the West, Nario, first chose edgy here over Mr. Goody-goody because he liked the character. He even got #9 at Apex. People argue that DK fans don't even play Smash because DK is so unpopular a character and 99% of Diddys are just here just for the banana trickery in Brawl or because he's the "best" character now. ZeRo and M2K just say they use him because he's the best right now.

Master fortress is the closest thing to smash run on Wii U, but you can only play it at 8.0 or higher, not to mention grind through all the other master forms too, though we should probably stop all this bickering and support Wolf, Lucas,Dixie,Krool, etc for DLC.

 

[Dre89]

...Settle down a bit man. You're kinda missing the point. I'm saying the blame is, well, mis-blamed. Mario Party replaced Metroid as much as Smash Tour replaced Wolf. Which is to say not at all. Smash Run wouldn't work on Wii U anyway, and I'm sure Smash Tour didn't take nearly as much effort as porting Smash Run over would of. They, again, didn't have the time.



Nope. Not enough time. That's what you're not getting. After Lucina and Doc there is not enough time to meet your demands. Dark Pit doesn't have unique moves, stats or properties. Hell, I'd say Dark Pit was left unfinished with that random weaker Ftilt. Would a Dixie with a recolored Popgun that's just worse as a projectile, a Monkey Flip that's worse except for one niche area, and a Ftilt just with terrible KB be satisfying at all to you? Oh, and she grew a tail and doesn't use her hair at all. And that's assuming she had a model and voicework already.

And it's kinda hilarious that you claim he doesn't have fans. We're here aren't we? And probably the best angel player in the West, Nario, first chose edgy here over Mr. Goody-goody because he liked the character. He even got #9 at Apex. People argue that DK fans don't even play Smash because DK is so unpopular a character and 99% of Diddys are just here just for the banana trickery in Brawl or because he's the "best" character now. ZeRo and M2K just say they use him because he's the best right now.

Every possible character has at least some fans, and every playable character has a fan base by virtue of being in Smash. Characters like ROB GaW and ICs have fan bases now despite getting virtually no requests for their inclusion and most Smashers not even having played their games.

And it wouldn't take that long to give Dixie Donkey Kong's upb, recolour the popgun, and give her hair for the tail attacks. You don't know the exact amount of time they had left.

Stop trying to justify Palette Swap as a separate character. Say what you want but everyone knows had we had any other director he wouldn't have had a chance of getting in. Bias and convenience are why he's in the game, not because he's deserving or a worthy addition to the roster.

 

[SimonBarSinister]

Every possible character has at least some fans, and every playable character has a fan base by virtue of being in Smash. Characters like ROB GaW and ICs have fan bases now despite getting virtually no requests for their inclusion and most Smashers not even having played their games.

And it wouldn't take that long to give Dixie Donkey Kong's upb, recolour the popgun, and give her hair for the tail attacks. You don't know the exact amount of time they had left.

Stop trying to justify Palette Swap as a separate character. Say what you want but everyone knows had we had any other director he wouldn't have had a chance of getting in. Bias and convenience are why he's in the game, not because he's deserving or a worthy addition to the roster.

Speaking of which, did anyone even want to show up? Not that I have any problem with him.

 

[LancerStaff]

Every possible character has at least some fans, and every playable character has a fan base by virtue of being in Smash. Characters like ROB GaW and ICs have fan bases now despite getting virtually no requests for their inclusion and most Smashers not even having played their games.

And it wouldn't take that long to give Dixie Donkey Kong's upb, recolour the popgun, and give her hair for the tail attacks. You don't know the exact amount of time they had left.

Stop trying to justify Palette Swap as a separate character. Say what you want but everyone knows had we had any other director he wouldn't have had a chance of getting in. Bias and convenience are why he's in the game, not because he's deserving or a worthy addition to the roster.

Yes... Dark Pit technically was already in Smash as a pallet swap though. And he was one of the most popular characters in Japanese polls up to and after release because of that color in Brawl. Dark Pit's practically a veteran.

As someone who has a remote idea of how game development works, it's painfully obvious Dark Pit was rushed and couldn't of been more if they wanted to. Game development is largely divided. Models and colors are made by one group, attacks and the associated values by another. Since Dark Pit was already a pallet swap at that point they didn't need to ask the model makers to make much. Just his Fspecial and Final Smash weapons. After that the model makers went back to whatever they were working on, presumably with little time left since Bowser Jr. was nearly cut and he's eight separate character models. Then the character designing and balancing team made his new arrows and Arm attack into something new, tried to do something unique with his Ftilt or tried to give him a different advantage but ran out of time. We have a pretty good idea how much time they had just from looking at his Ftilt.

Dark Pit was going to be a pallet swap character from the start. It'd be stupid if they didn't include him after making Pit. And don't give me this "new guy would of cut Pit" BS, anybody remote sane would try to bring every character back like Sakurai tried, and he just had a new game to top it off. Oh, and Sakurai always goes to whoever made a series's games last for advice for the new content. A smart director would do the same, and likely come to Sakurai for advice on Smash as a whole. Since Dark Pit was already a pallet swap in Brawl, any director would make a recolor with angry eyebrows and a silver bow. Then Pit and Dark Pit share a VA, meaning his voice clips would be easy to get. So what we have was a pallet swap that was going to be in the game no matter what. Doc, Lucina, and Alph, not so much. Come time to make clones, like in every Smash to date, Dark Pit would practically be complete as a clone compared to Dixie Kong who not would have a model or voice acting, assuming the director didn't include her in the first place for being too similar to Diddy. If she was a complete newcomer that'd mean somebody like Shulk would of been cut instead. So, Dark Pit is still in the game and obviously the quickest clone to make. Why wouldn't they make him a whole character at that point?

Stop trying to devalue Dark Pit as a character because he only got in because of convenience, and any other director would of thrown him in because of how easy he would be to make after including him a pallet swap. He already had a sizable fanbase due to Brawl and KIU, and is a legitimate choice because clones were going to be a thing like in every fighting game ever.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Speaking of which, did anyone even want to show up? Not that I have any problem with him.

I did. And I know many others do too. He's fairly iconic in his own right. Albeit, it's not just the Dog, but the Hunter(in the background) and the Duck too. It's one of my favorite games and I'm quite happy he got the spot.

And while Dark Pit does have fans, I gotta agree that his showing up as playable really wasn't simply for the fans, but ultimately convenience. Also, it was mentioned that the Staff had ideas for his variant moves, but none for Alph. In a way, it was the Staff that was biased more than Sakurai for his inclusion. Now, it is true that he is the reason alts alone can't have unique movesets, which I do not mind, though. I liked having more playable characters, especially vets like Dr. Mario. I'm not sure Dark Pit really had much of a chance to earn a spot on his purely own merits. Lucina and Dr. Mario far more, mainly due to them being more notable overall in comparison. Dark Pit was still a great choice, being that I really like how he plays overall, even if he could be a bit more unique(doesn't have to be much), and I love his personality.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Speaking of which, did anyone even want to show up? Not that I have any problem with him.

He had his share of supporters, but within the speculative community, the most commonly requested retro character was Takamaru.

 

[Tino]

Speaking of which, did anyone even want to show up? Not that I have any problem with him.

I didn't know who he was until I saw him in the ESRB leaks prior to the release of the 3DS version.

 

[VioletSmashfan]

Yes... Dark Pit technically was already in Smash as a pallet swap though. And he was one of the most popular characters in Japanese polls up to and after release because of that color in Brawl. Dark Pit's practically a veteran.

As someone who has a remote idea of how game development works, it's painfully obvious Dark Pit was rushed and couldn't of been more if they wanted to. Game development is largely divided. Models and colors are made by one group, attacks and the associated values by another. Since Dark Pit was already a pallet swap at that point they didn't need to ask the model makers to make much. Just his Fspecial and Final Smash weapons. After that the model makers went back to whatever they were working on, presumably with little time left since Bowser Jr. was nearly cut and he's eight separate character models. Then the character designing and balancing team made his new arrows and Arm attack into something new, tried to do something unique with his Ftilt or tried to give him a different advantage but ran out of time. We have a pretty good idea how much time they had just from looking at his Ftilt.

Dark Pit was going to be a pallet swap character from the start. It'd be stupid if they didn't include him after making Pit. And don't give me this "new guy would of cut Pit" BS, anybody remote sane would try to bring every character back like Sakurai tried, and he just had a new game to top it off. Oh, and Sakurai always goes to whoever made a series's games last for advice for the new content. A smart director would do the same, and likely come to Sakurai for advice on Smash as a whole. Since Dark Pit was already a pallet swap in Brawl, any director would make a recolor with angry eyebrows and a silver bow. Then Pit and Dark Pit share a VA, meaning his voice clips would be easy to get. So what we have was a pallet swap that was going to be in the game no matter what. Doc, Lucina, and Alph, not so much. Come time to make clones, like in every Smash to date, Dark Pit would practically be complete as a clone compared to Dixie Kong who not would have a model or voice acting, assuming the director didn't include her in the first place for being too similar to Diddy. If she was a complete newcomer that'd mean somebody like Shulk would of been cut instead. So, Dark Pit is still in the game and obviously the quickest clone to make. Why wouldn't they make him a whole character at that point?

Stop trying to devalue Dark Pit as a character because he only got in because of convenience, and any other director would of thrown him in because of how easy he would be to make after including him a pallet swap. He already had a sizable fanbase due to Brawl and KIU, and is a legitimate choice because clones were going to be a thing like in every fighting game ever.

If his F-tilt is unfinished (which is clearly is), they can just fix that with the possible balance patch that arrives when Mewtwo pops up (thank god they're willing to fix things), since Pit's deals more knockback Dark Pit should have the same.

Even though I despise clones 100% (mostly Toon Link whom should have been re-worked to not be a Link clone, yet he's still a clone and oddly enough not getting the hate as bad as DP is, even though he did when he was 1st revealed to be back), Dark Pit I'm willing to accept as a clone (since I prefer darker characters), although you guys will be happy once he's axed in the next SSB game (because he'll be the 1st one that gets axed, especially if Sakurai's not directing the 5th installment), plus Dark Pit is clearly the Roy/Pichu/Young Link of this game, and to an extent Lucinia.

 

[SimonBarSinister]

If his F-tilt is unfinished (which is clearly is), they can just fix that with the possible balance patch that arrives when Mewtwo pops up (thank god they're willing to fix things), since Pit's deals more knockback Dark Pit should have the same.

Even though I despise clones 100% (mostly Toon Link whom should have been re-worked to not be a Link clone, yet he's still a clone and oddly enough not getting the hate as bad as DP is, even though he did when he was 1st revealed to be back), Dark Pit I'm willing to accept as a clone (since I prefer darker characters), although you guys will be happy once he's axed in the next SSB game (because he'll be the 1st one that gets axed, especially if Sakurai's not directing the 5th installment), plus Dark Pit is clearly the Roy/Pichu/Young Link of this game, and to an extent Lucinia.

I find it strange that there are people that still call a clone. He isn't a flat-out clone, but of a Luigified version of . He fights similarly to because he's related(much like as compared to )and all, but has altered properties on his moves(including specials)as well as some different moves which make him feel like his own character. I don't use , but I've fought him many, many times(between SSBB and Smash 4, but mostly SSBB)to know what separates him from .

I think clones will always garner hate in some way or another, only now is getting the full force of it(to the point where and seem invisible to the critics), which I think is a bit uncalled for.

 

[LancerStaff]

If his F-tilt is unfinished (which is clearly is), they can just fix that with the possible balance patch that arrives when Mewtwo pops up (thank god they're willing to fix things), since Pit's deals more knockback Dark Pit should have the same.

Even though I despise clones 100% (mostly Toon Link whom should have been re-worked to not be a Link clone, yet he's still a clone and oddly enough not getting the hate as bad as DP is, even though he did when he was 1st revealed to be back), Dark Pit I'm willing to accept as a clone (since I prefer darker characters), although you guys will be happy once he's axed in the next SSB game (because he'll be the 1st one that gets axed, especially if Sakurai's not directing the 5th installment), plus Dark Pit is clearly the Roy/Pichu/Young Link of this game, and to an extent Lucinia.

What I don't understand is that they altered almost every character besides the Angels in the Wii U update, and couldn't just fix DP's Ftilt. Seriously, we've datamined the game and the only things the update added were windbox tweaks on the Arm attacks (and Falcon's Raptor Boost for those curious) and a couple filler lines on Pittwo.

And I guess I should of elaborated on Pichu. Pichu is the face of baby Pokemon, otherwise known as one of the most pointless mechanics ever. Pichu, like Roy, isn't entirely liked by the home series's fanbase. And then Pichu got the stigma of being trash in Melee as something of a cherry on top. Roy managed to dodge the stigma of being worse then Marth because noobs can't space. Dark Pit is indeed largely outclassed by Pit, but he's not on the opposite side of the tier list and has actual uses. And Dark Pit's hate really only exists on hardcore type sites like this and GameFAQs from my experience. Other places it's usually Lucina for being this game's Pichu or Doc for being the exact same person as the original. Duck Hunt usually got the hate after the leak because people thought he was a highly unrealistic/bad choice.

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

What I don't understand is that they altered almost every character besides the Angels in the Wii U update, and couldn't just fix DP's Ftilt. Seriously, we've datamined the game and the only things the update added were windbox tweaks on the Arm attacks (and Falcon's Raptor Boost for those curious) and a couple filler lines on Pittwo.

And I guess I should of elaborated on Pichu. Pichu is the face of baby Pokemon, otherwise known as one of the most pointless mechanics ever. Pichu, like Roy, isn't entirely liked by the home series's fanbase. And then Pichu got the stigma of being trash in Melee as something of a cherry on top. Roy managed to dodge the stigma of being worse then Marth because noobs can't space. Dark Pit is indeed largely outclassed by Pit, but he's not on the opposite side of the tier list and has actual uses. And Dark Pit's hate really only exists on hardcore type sites like this and GameFAQs from my experience. Other places it's usually Lucina for being this game's Pichu or Doc for being the exact same person as the original. Duck Hunt usually got the hate after the leak because people thought he was a highly unrealistic/bad choice.

Pichu is the 6th most requested character for DLC in Japan, Lucas and Wolf are 1 and 2 and Krool is 7.

 

[PhantomShab]

This is ridiculous.

The game has been out for months now. Please move on from it and let others be happy. If you don't like the character, fine, but I don't think these threads contribute anything or merit considering it's literally the same argument being rehashed every time it's brought up.

Bottom line: you don't like the character, tough luck. No amount of foot-stamping and criticising Sakurai is going to change it, and it doesn't make a difference in the long run. Nobody is forcing you to play as the character. Just ignore it and move on if it bothers you so much, and please just let the rest of us get on with our lives.

It's not exactly fair to tell people to "get over it" in a thread asking why the people that disagree with Dark Pit's inclusion...well, disagree with his inclusion. I mean, that's kind of the whole point of this thread. Not like they we were the ones who made this thread either.

People are just mad because X character didn't get in so they want to scream bias and hate Dark Pit. If you mad because of Sakurai Bias then why aren't you mad a Kirby, King De De De or Metaknight or the amount of Kirby things that are in both of the games. Say Sakurai is bias because of Kid Icarus but not of the Kirby franchise the franchise that Sakurai made? The only one I see is bias are the ones that say this type of crap.

Big difference. Kirby literally buries Kid Icarus in terms of games and relevancy to Nintendo. The Kirby representation having Meta Knight and DeDeDe added is perfectly reasonable. And a bonus, none of them are clones.

If his F-tilt is unfinished (which is clearly is), they can just fix that with the possible balance patch that arrives when Mewtwo pops up (thank god they're willing to fix things), since Pit's deals more knockback Dark Pit should have the same.

Even though I despise clones 100% (mostly Toon Link whom should have been re-worked to not be a Link clone, yet he's still a clone and oddly enough not getting the hate as bad as DP is, even though he did when he was 1st revealed to be back), Dark Pit I'm willing to accept as a clone (since I prefer darker characters), although you guys will be happy once he's axed in the next SSB game (because he'll be the 1st one that gets axed, especially if Sakurai's not directing the 5th installment), plus Dark Pit is clearly the Roy/Pichu/Young Link of this game, and to an extent Lucinia.

There are substantial differences between Link and Toon Link. Many animations, weight, speed, appearance, and specials have more differences between Link and Toon Link than Pit and Dark Pit have. Toon Link is a semi-clone (while Dark Pit is a full-on clone) with many more things that make him more unique than Dark Pit could ever hope to be. Why in the world would you even complain about Toon Link being a semi-clone when you have Dark Pit there as one of your Smash 4 mains?

 

[SimonBarSinister]

Pichu is the 6th most requested character for DLC in Japan, Lucas and Wolf are 1 and 2 and Krool is 7.

Yowch. Japan really does like cute things, no matter how useless.

Joking aside, I actually do like , more than for reasons I can't explain. may be the face of Pokemon, but there seems to be times when I can't stand looking at it.

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

Yowch. Japan really does like cute things, no matter how useless.

Joking aside, I actually do like , more than for reasons I can't explain. may be the face of Pokemon, but there seems to be times when I can't stand looking at it.

doesn't get kidnapped by Team Rocket every day of the week.

 

[SimonBarSinister]

doesn't get kidnapped by Team Rocket every day of the week.

A certain blue dog wouldn't let that **** fly. He means business.

 

[LancerStaff]

Pichu is the 6th most requested character for DLC in Japan, Lucas and Wolf are 1 and 2 and Krool is 7.

That's just inherent "hardcore" bias because the poll was held on the Japanese equivalent of GameFAQs.

People need to understand that where the polls are held have just as much importance as what's being asked. If it were on, say, Nintendo.com or Miiverse, all those characters would drop like stones. K. Rool especially. You can't even make it about Smash DLC without putting a good deal of bias into it.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

"Hardcore" fans would be the only ones that would be voting in Smash-based DLC polls no matter where you take it just by virtue of the fact that "casual" fans aren't dedicated enough to be interested in polls. They would be the millions of fans that are already satisfied with what they got in the initial game due to being able to play characters like Mario, Link, Pikachu, etc. So that argument doesn't really work.

 

[LancerStaff]

"Hardcore" fans would be the only ones that would be voting in Smash-based DLC polls no matter where you take it just by virtue of the fact that "casual" fans aren't dedicated enough to be interested in polls. They would be the millions of fans that are already satisfied with what they got in the initial game due to being able to play characters like Mario, Link, Pikachu, etc. So that argument doesn't really work.

Which is why you look to general Nintendo character polls for character choices instead. They generate much more casual interest and aren't effected things like "X isn't likely so I'll vote Y" and "I don't care so Wolf."

And DLC doesn't really work if it's an obscure character, because nobody will by it besides the fans of the series. So that's another reason they chose Mewtwo instead of somebody like K. Rool.

 

[SimonBarSinister]

Which is why you look to general Nintendo character polls for character choices instead. They generate much more casual interest and aren't effected things like "X isn't likely so I'll vote Y" and "I don't care so Wolf."

And DLC doesn't really work if it's an obscure character, because nobody will by it besides the fans of the series. So that's another reason they chose Mewtwo instead of somebody like K. Rool.

K. Rool is obscure? I didn't know that. I thought he was the main villain of the DKC series, or am I wrong on that?

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

Which is why you look to general Nintendo character polls for character choices instead. They generate much more casual interest and aren't effected things like "X isn't likely so I'll vote Y" and "I don't care so Wolf."

And DLC doesn't really work if it's an obscure character, because nobody will by it besides the fans of the series. So that's another reason they chose Mewtwo instead of somebody like K. Rool.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Which is why you look to general Nintendo character polls for character choices instead. They generate much more casual interest and aren't effected things like "X isn't likely so I'll vote Y" and "I don't care so Wolf."

And DLC doesn't really work if it's an obscure character, because nobody will by it besides the fans of the series. So that's another reason they chose Mewtwo instead of somebody like K. Rool.

Super Street Fighter 4 additions roster-wise had nothing but 10 additional characters who were obscure to the general audience and that was a retail only expansion. It still sold almost 2 million copies. If anything (because it sure as heck wasn't due to the popularity of said characters among the mainstream SF fans), this suggest that casual fans aren't really as picky about DLC/expansion characters as the more hardcore fanbase, being willing to buy characters they don't recognize as long as they look cool and interesting. It's the only plausible explanation how an epansion that only contained hardcore fan-favourites like Super Street Fighter 4 was able to even break a million retail copies sold, let alone nearly 2 million as opposed to somewhere in the thousands (tens or hundreds). Ultra Street Fighter 4, the fourth expansion in contrast, only managed to sell at this moment around 500K, a number which would be a more accurate estimate of the number of hardcore fans for Street Fighter 4. In that regard, a number around a couple of tens or hundreds of thousand sales would be a more accurate estimate of how much a DLC character would sell, not millions.

K. Rool as DLC wouldn't even have to sell anywhere near a million to be successful considering he would be less resource intensive than said expansion.

And no, K. Rool isn't someone only popular within the DK fanbase, but also someone legitimately heavily requested among the very audience actually invested in specific DLC characters. If anything, you should have used Hades as a better example of an obscure character popular within his home fanbase, but isn't really someone likely to sell well as DLC due to lack of requests among the Smash fanbase (although come to think of it, no other KI characters would have been likely to sell that well outside of Palutena considering she was the only one who was legitimately heavily requested among the Smash fanbase both in the West and over in Japan post-Uprising.)

 

[VioletSmashfan]

There are substantial differences between Link and Toon Link. Many animations, weight, speed, appearance, and specials have more differences between Link and Toon Link than Pit and Dark Pit have. Toon Link is a semi-clone (while Dark Pit is a full-on clone) with many more things that make him more unique than Dark Pit could ever hope to be. Why in the world would you even complain about Toon Link being a semi-clone when you have Dark Pit there as one of your Smash 4 mains?

Yeah there are plenty differences between the 2 Links (including height/weight), but they have the exact same Special moves and Final Smash as one-another I still consider Toon Link a full-on clone even if he was re-worked to be a semi-clone (only differences he and Link have are slightly different throws and air attacks), people have been clamoring for Toon Link to get a moveset that's more related to the games that he's from (most notably example is a Wind-Waker style moveset), there's still alot of people that wanted Toon Link cut from the Smash series, because he was an unncessary addition to the Smash roster during Brawl.

And I'm getting sick of people bashing Dark Pit (especially against people who criticize those who main him), just because he's an unnecessary addition (yeah he's a full-on clone, but he has a different FS and taunts that set's him apart from Pit), he combos alot better (as does Pit) than my current Brawl main Lucario (who lost a lot of his good tools from Brawl that allowed him to do those combos in the air), plus he's not as annoying as Pit (which is why people like him in the 1st place), plus he has way more online appearances than regular Pit does.

Lucinia was the 1st clone revealed for the game and people were more or less 50/50 split on her getting in, Dr. Mario was mostly well received, since everyone hated Brawl Mario's moveset and wanted Melee Mario back (although early on he was hated, since everyone including me wanted Mewtwo back, and wasn't expecting the doctor to hop back in after he was axed from Brawl), while Dark Pit gets trashed for being a full-on clone (who has almost little to no differences from Reg Pit), to be honest clones are here to stay in Smash Bros as long as Sakurai stays on as director, just deal with it (kinda odd that no one complains about Ken Masters or Akuma being clones of Ryu from Street Fighter and they're just as beloved as Ryu is).

Once Mewtwo gets released, I'm dropping Dark Pit for him anyways (this depends on how much changes he went through between Melee-to-4), since DP is more or less going to be a novetly pick anyways (just like Roy was in Melee).

 

[LancerStaff]

K. Rool is obscure? I didn't know that. I thought he was the main villain of the DKC series, or am I wrong on that?

Was. Last game with him in it that did well was Mario Super Sluggers on Wii.

Super Street Fighter 4 additions roster-wise had nothing but 10 additional characters who were obscure to the general audience and that was a retail only expansion. It still sold almost 2 million copies. If anything (because it sure as heck wasn't due to the popularity of said characters among the mainstream SF fans), this suggest that casual fans aren't really as picky about DLC/expansion characters as the more hardcore fanbase, being willing to buy characters they don't recognize as long as they look cool and interesting. It's the only plausible explanation how an epansion that only contained hardcore fan-favourites like Super Street Fighter 4 was able to even break a million retail copies sold, let alone nearly 2 million as opposed to somewhere in the thousands (tens or hundreds). Ultra Street Fighter 4, the fourth expansion in contrast, only managed to sell at this moment around 500K, a number which would be a more accurate estimate of the number of hardcore fans for Street Fighter 4. In that regard, a number around a couple of tens or hundreds of thousand sales would be a more accurate estimate of how much a DLC character would sell, not millions.

K. Rool as DLC wouldn't even have to sell anywhere near a million to be successful considering he would be less resource intensive than said expansion.

And no, K. Rool isn't someone only popular within the DK fanbase, but also someone legitimately heavily requested among the very audience actually invested in specific DLC characters. If anything, you should have used Hades as a better example of an obscure character popular within his home fanbase, but isn't really someone likely to sell well as DLC due to lack of requests among the Smash fanbase (although come to think of it, no other KI characters would have been likely to sell that well outside of Palutena considering she was the only one who was legitimately heavily requested among the Smash fanbase both in the West and over in Japan post-Uprising.)

Street Fighter has an incredibly different demographic compared to SSB, and that's an expansion game instead of separate DLC where you have to buy all ten characters no matter what.

Would they of made WFT DLC? No. They specifically chose Mewtwo because he's popular. Word is still out on if they're actually going to sell Mewtwo or if the Club Nintendo guys just get him early, but Mewtwo himself created alot of buzz. They specifically saved Mewtwo to be that downloadable character.

K. Rool is nothing to the casual fanbase. People who draw or request K. Rool don't get any attention on Miiverse. Even those who've bought the original games don't have a clue who he is because he's just the final boss. And in Japan he's only in the first game due to translation changes. People severely overrate K. Rool's presence.

Hades isn't even that obscure, apparently... A pic of him showed up in the popular posts of Miiverse a day or two ago. And it was in Spanish. (Japan is the only region that gets a separate community, and the popular section almost never has non-English posts.)

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Would they of made WFT DLC? No. They specifically chose Mewtwo because he's popular. Word is still out on if they're actually going to sell Mewtwo or if the Club Nintendo guys just get him early, but Mewtwo himself created alot of buzz. They specifically saved Mewtwo to be that downloadable character.

Dampierre in Soul Calibur 5 is a good counter example, if you ask me. It's not Taki, Ivy or Voldo.

Also, Skarlet in Mortal Kombat, a character based on a rumor from Mortal Kombat 2.

And, although free, I don't think people asked that much for Slim Bob or Sebastian (but as said the 6 characters were free. And there's Dr Boskonovitch!)

 

[LancerStaff]

Dampierre in Soul Calibur 5 is a good counter example, if you ask me. It's not Taki, Ivy or Voldo.

Also, Skarlet in Mortal Kombat, a character based on a rumor from Mortal Kombat 2.

And, although free, I don't think people asked that much for Slim Bob or Sebastian (but as said the 6 characters were free. And there's Dr Boskonovitch!)

Again, it's a different situation. In Smash, why would you be some nobody when you could be your favorite video game character? Or at least somebody fun to play as. Traditional fighters' characters are pretty samey compared to Smash's, and buying a character in Smash would be risky in a way. If it's a character you don't care about and if you don't like the moveset, you just wasted money. In most fighting games, characters are easy to pick up relatively speaking, and characters are basically just their appearance and in-game personality. It's easy to tell if you'll like a character from a glance and start playing as them right there.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Again, it's a different situation. In Smash, why would you be some nobody when you could be your favorite video game character? Or at least somebody fun to play as. Traditional fighters' characters are pretty samey compared to Smash's, and buying a character in Smash would be risky in a way. If it's a character you don't care about and if you don't like the moveset, you just wasted money. In most fighting games, characters are easy to pick up relatively speaking, and characters are basically just their appearance and in-game personality. It's easy to tell if you'll like a character from a glance and start playing as them right there.

Considering Dampierre isn't really popular (as he was a character in the PSP game) and hard to play (random moves, no range, slow), it's really weird that they decided that HE was the DLC character.
Even the creators of the game gave him bad stats (although it's just a joke, according to me) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAKUT2C61sY

And surely, Smash choices for the roster is different as it's a crossover, but still. Would you really choose a rumor from an older game as your next DLC character?

Anyway, going back to Smash, I don't see the problem with more obscure characters as DLC. As said, if people who don't really have interest just find the character cool, they may buy it.
But the more hardcore smash fanbase will probably know the character anyway, so I don't see why not.

Of course, I don't say "please just add characters from old, unknown GBA games". Characters that sells are also important, like Mewtwo.

 

[ApathySSB]

Solid question.

 

[PhantomShab]

Yeah there are plenty differences between the 2 Links (including height/weight), but they have the exact same Special moves and Final Smash as one-another

Pit and Dark Pit share the same special moves with even less differences between them than Link and Toon Link's, so...yeah.

I still consider Toon Link a full-on clone even if he was re-worked to be a semi-clone

Ironic, but whatever.

(only differences he and Link have are slightly different throws and air attacks),

And U-Smash. And ledge attack. And Dash attack. That's like, a whole new moveset compared to Dark Pit.

people have been clamoring for Toon Link to get a moveset that's more related to the games that he's from (most notably example is a Wind-Waker style moveset),

And people have been clamoring for Dark Pit to use his staff ever since his hilariously misleading render was leaked. And then actual gameplay of him was leaked. I wouldn't mind a couple more small tweaks to Toon Link that further separates him from normal Link, but I'm pretty happy with the substantial differences he has now. Link is more suited to KOing opponents early with his powerful smash attacks, while Toon Link is better suited to air attacks and using his speed. Dark Pit literally plays the same way as Pit, only worse, according to most people that main him.

there's still alot of people that wanted Toon Link cut from the Smash series, because he was an unncessary addition to the Smash roster during Brawl.

Sakurai said that he feels having a younger version of Link in Smash is important, so I doubt that would ever happen. Besides, Toon Link is basically Young Link from Melee, just in a more unique form.

(yeah he's a full-on clone, but he has a different FS and taunts that set's him apart from Pit),

His final smash is nothing unique at all, just a re-skinned Zelda/Sheik final smash. And different taunts? Toon Link has those too. It's not like taunts effect the moveset anyways. All clones (be they full-on like Dark Pit or semi ones like Toon Link) have always had their own taunts.

plus he has way more online appearances than regular Pit does.

So what? What does it even matter if you've personally encountered more Dark Pits online?

Dr. Mario was mostly well received, since everyone hated Brawl Mario's moveset and wanted Melee Mario back

I never got that. I mean whoopee, goodbye useless FLUUD and hello useless tornado spin. Mario has never really had the best down special, like ever. Luigi is pretty good with it in Smash 4 though. Plus, Mario still had that spin as his down-air since Brawl. Well anyways, congrats on getting "Melee Mario" back guys, just without his fireballs, speed, and decent recovery. Looks like "Melee Mario" lost more than he gained. But at least he got his Doctor Mario Tornado back! None of this was directed at you, btw.

 

[Curious Villager]

Dark Pit and Lucina make Toon Link look like Lucas and Wolf imo, not sure why some people tend to lump him specifically together with the three used-to-be-alernate-costume clones as he has quite a number of differences from Link compared to them. He's closer to Falco and Ganondorf than them if you ask me. :/