Apex 2015 Game Lineup Announced!

[Shog]

I like how most arguments for Project M can be nullified by bringing up other fan games that have a following and should be represented too.

 

[shapular]

This is disgusting. Time to educate you four, and everyone else who is hating on .

SSB64, the greatest game in existence. Everyone loved it. And it had some cool technical stuff for players who wanted to get good. Win win.

SSBM the mistake. Still super fun casually. No one really said "oh everyone drops like bricks, oh too fast". SSB64 is slower than Melee and you didn't hear people saying these things. Melee eventually got really fast, and guess what?

Sakurai HATED us. He did not want his game to be a competitive fighting game. He did not want people to beat others. He wanted this "fair playing ground for everyone".

Brawl, the result of this. Sakurai did this to blatantly disrespect those who played this game competitively. This is when people finally started saying "Melee is too fast". The game was completely catered to casuals. You can airdodge out of hitstun 13 frames after hitstun started, and attack out of it 25 frames after it started. This makes combos null. The recoveries are drastically buffed and many characters can grab the ledge from pretty far away. The shields were buffed so there are very few moves that are truly safe on shield, and vs good players, NOTHING is truly safe on shield. He even DESIGNED a character that was MEANT to destroy everyone else. This character was Meta Knight, and the only other character that Sakurai noticed that could go even with him was Diddy Kong, and that was because of his Bananas, which were never truly intended to be as effective as they were. We now know that ICs do very well vs MK too. He also gave other characters dumb things like Falco's CG, Dedede's infinite CG, etc.

We got mad. Most stuck with Melee. Some moved to Brawl. A slew of new players who wanted to prove Sakurai wrong made it as competitive as possible. And a few individuals made PM.

PM's goals are this:
Project M hopes to achieve a game similar to Super Smash Bros. Melee in many respects. It does not, however, intend to be a 1:1 Melee clone. The following is a list of the main aspects of Super Smash Bros. Melee that inspired and have carried over into Project M:

• A fast-paced game
• with flowing, natural movement
• where the player has a great degree of control over their character due to the technical skill that they've achieved.
• The balance of offense and defense changes depending on the exact matchup and playstyle, but overall tends to favor offense slightly.
• Offstage edgeguarding is risky but rewarding, while on-stage edgeguarding is safer but less rewarding.
• Recoveries generally require great skill to use, with the advantage usually being with the edgeguarding player, with some exceptions.
• The combos are challenging and spontaneous, with anything longer than 2-3 hits requiring a knowledge of both characters' options and some degree of prediction and/or a deep understanding of the mental aspect of the game.

In short, Project M aims to capture the essence of what made Melee a truly great game in our eyes.

PM improved on a lot of Brawl's flaws. But it also kept many things that made Brawl awesome (DACUS FTW).

So NO, PM is NOT a Melee clone TopTierPichu.


APEX 2014 had
629 Melee
382 Project M
370 Brawl
157 SSB64

SKTAR 3 had
237 Melee
256 Project M
97 Brawl

CEO 2014 had
262 Melee
255 Project M

Zenith had
281 Melee
165 Project M

Low Tier City 2 had
75 Melee
121 Project M

The Big House 4 had
570 (or 574 not sure) Melee
333 Project M

See Shapular? PM has a very big following. People LIKE the game. Its popular for a REASON. PM has OBLITERATED Brawl in attendance in every tourney both were featured at. PM had even beaten MELEE in attendance in some tournies.

ShadyWolfe, PM has been in SEVERAL major tournies and has been very successful. To say it all of a sudden doesn't is silly. If PM was having low turnouts then I'd understand, but 200-350 people showing up is not a low turnout to me.

EDIT: Also, how DARE some of you disrespect the PMDT

Guess how long it took to code Mewtwo into 3.0?

Over 700 Hours. 700 hours they could have used to do other things. Thats basically a MONTH of programming. ONE MONTH GONE of their life. They used that to build a character for a hack game that they don't even generate REVENUE from, and they're using THIER resources to do it. Heck they're technically risking bugging up their computers from all the programs that they're using.

Brawl took Sakurai 3 years to make but he was getting paid to do it, AND nintendo was giving him the resources. These guys are PROFESSIONALS. The PMDT is full of AMATEURS. And yet these AMATEURS are doing a downright amazing job, as their hack is garnering more players at tournaments than the real game (Brawl).

@TopTierPichu
When was the last time that Fox's shine didnt have invincibility in Melee, or his lasers did less damage the farther they go. When was Mewtwo top tier in Melee. When did Ganondorf have a CG in Melee. When was Falcon able to grab the edge with Raptor Boost in Melee. When was Ike in Melee lmao. When was DACUS and glide toss in Melee. When was platform cancelling (brawl style) in Melee.

Alright, I guess it's time for some re-education since you seem to be misinformed on some things. First, sure, Brawl changed some things from Melee and there are some things you could do in Melee that you can't in Brawl. Even so, Brawl was still a huge success competitively. It almost entirely killed off Melee. It brought us huge tournaments like Apex and SKTAR, made streaming a big thing in Smash, brought sponsorships to the game, and introduced tons of new members to the community. It put Smash back in MLG for the first time since 2006. It even became so successful that Melee was able to ride its coattails into Evo 2013.

As for PM, it was never intended to be a competitive mod. From the very start, it was made just for the heck of it, just to see how much Brawl could be made like Melee. I know a lot of people, especially those newer to the community or to PM, like to rehash the "PM isn't supposed to be exactly like Melee" point, but that's not what the evidence shows. In the first PM FAQ, there was a question, "Can we call this Melee 2.0?", and the answer was yes (meant to distinguish it from Brawl+, which was often called Melee 2.0 even though it wasn't). In every new release of PM, the devs have fixed something to be exactly like Melee, and usually when something isn't exactly like Melee (except for some Brawl things like DACUS and RAR that were intentionally left in) it's because they haven't figured out how to make it exactly like Melee yet, and it frustrates them when they can't. Like I said before, PM wasn't intended to be a competitive mod and wasn't even intended to be balanced at first (and whenever they did decide that they wanted it to be balanced, they were held back by their commitment to not changing Fox and Falco). So the devs knew what they were getting into, and they did it anyway not expecting PM to be featured in any large tournaments. Apex 2014 having PM was a nice nod to the PM "community" (which at this point was a few PM-only people and a bunch of people playing PM on the side, which is why PM had more entrants than Brawl at Apex), but should only be viewed as a one-shot.

Yes, I know PM's stated goals. I also know that it has failed at many of those goals, and it's well-documented so don't try to tell me it's not so. The free recoveries ("the M stands for make it back to the stage"), the autocombos, and the OP characters (Mewtwo, Lucas, Diddy) are all well-known and PMDT has said so themselves. Yes, 3.5 is supposed to fix these issues, but what if it doesn't? I've heard from some PMDT members that 3.5 is the worst thing ever, and if that's the case then PM is in trouble.

PMBR spent 700 hours remaking Meta Knight and calling him Mewtwo. Now, Mewtwo was really bad in Melee, but other characters who were about as bad as him, or even worse, were not buffed nearly as much. PMBR should have learned from Brawl, but they ended up making Meta Knight 2.0, a character with tons of strengths and no real weakness. I wouldn't really say PM has benefitted from his being in the game so far, and I'm sure all the other PM players who are sick of him would agree.

 

[Deleted member]

PLEASE tell me Salty Suite will return.

Salty what?

 

[Dad'sHome]

Why not remove Brawl instead of PM (especially since Brawl and Sm4sh are so similar)?

 

[victinivcreate1]

Alright, I guess it's time for some re-education since you seem to be misinformed on some things. First, sure, Brawl changed some things from Melee and there are some things you could do in Melee that you can't in Brawl. Even so, Brawl was still a huge success competitively. It almost entirely killed off Melee. It brought us huge tournaments like Apex and SKTAR, made streaming a big thing in Smash, brought sponsorships to the game, and introduced tons of new members to the community. It put Smash back in MLG for the first time since 2006. It even became so successful that Melee was able to ride its coattails into Evo 2013.

BRUH.

Melee got into evo because the fanbase donated 94,000 to the breast cancer research thing

 

[King Donkey Kong]

Smash 4 was available by digital release. Does that make Smash 4 not a real game?

I have a copy of the game, nice try

It was made by a real company, not a bunch of butthurt melee lovers ^^

 

[shapular]

Why not remove Brawl instead of PM (especially since Brawl and Sm4sh are so similar)?

Why not remove PM, since Melee and PM are so similar?

BRUH.

Melee got into evo because the fanbase donated 94,000 to the breast cancer research thing

Melee was in consideration in the first place because Brawl made the Smash community so big. Melee got in because the Brawl community (which at that time was larger than the Melee community) rallied behind it and donated the money without thinking that it would bite them in the butt. I'm glad that you agree with the rest of my post though.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Why not remove PM, since Melee and PM are so similar?


Melee was in consideration in the first place because Brawl made the Smash community so big. Melee got in because the Brawl community (which at that time was larger than the Melee community) rallied behind it and donated the money without thinking that it would bite them in the butt. I'm glad that you agree with the rest of my post though.

I do (ive heard negative stuff about 3.5) but PM Mewtwo is not the next MK. Even EMUKILLER said he wasn't.

 

[The Soap]

No its a real game because NINTENDO, an actual company,made it. It was digital and retail so there is that. Project M is a hack

I have a copy of the game, nice try

It was made by a real company, not a bunch of butthurt melee lovers ^^

And how does not being made by a real company make it not a game?

 

[King Donkey Kong]

And how does not being made by a real company make it not a game?

Not a real game bro, that's why it's not featured.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

And how does not being made by a real company make it not a game?

its a HACK. What dont you understand about that...

 

[Lopson]

A shame P:M isn't going to be at Apex. Looking forward to watching the Melee and 64 stuff.

 

[The Soap]

Not a real game bro, that's why it's not featured.

This does not answer the question whatsoever.

its a HACK. What dont you understand about that...

So hacks can't be real games?

 

[Dad'sHome]

Why not remove PM, since Melee and PM are so similar?


Melee was in consideration in the first place because Brawl made the Smash community so big. Melee got in because the Brawl community (which at that time was larger than the Melee community) rallied behind it and donated the money without thinking that it would bite them in the butt. I'm glad that you agree with the rest of my post though.

PM over Brawl because PM actually has hype and is enjoyable to watch. You might disagree, but most people would agree with my assessment.

LOL, Melee is the sole reason Brawl has a competitive community to begin with. Melee is the reason the competitive Smash scene is a large as it is. F*ck outta here with that.

 

[Gardex]

Smash 4 was available by digital release. Does that make Smash 4 not a real game?

Why not remove Brawl instead of PM (especially since Brawl and Sm4sh are so similar)?

You two
Sit down and think about what you said for a moment

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

So hacks can't be real games?

um... yeah because it isn't the actual game. Nintendo didn't authorize it, There isn't a Nintendo seal

 

[victinivcreate1]

um... yeah because it isn't the actual game. Nintendo didn't authorize it, There isn't a Nintendo seal

But its better than the game with the seal.
Thats like saying that Justin Bieber is a singer and some guy on the street who can sing and sings for money is not a singer, because Justin sells records. They're both singers. Now who is better? The guy on the street always.

 

[Dad'sHome]

um... yeah because it isn't the actual game. Nintendo didn't authorize it, There isn't a Nintendo seal

It's not a Nintendo game. But it's still a game, and it exists. Therefore, it is real. Therefore, it is a real game.

 

[Dad'sHome]

You two
Sit down and think about what you said for a moment

Please, spare me your patronization.

 

[shapular]

PM over Brawl because PM actually has hype and is enjoyable to watch. You might disagree, but most people would agree with my assessment.

LOL, Melee is the sole reason Brawl has a competitive community to begin with. Melee is the reason the competitive Smash scene is a large as it is. F*ck outta here with that.

Were you asleep the past six and a half years? Tournaments weren't even close to the size they are now before Brawl came out. I really shouldn't even bother responding to this since it's obvious from your other posts that you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

@#HBC | Red Ryu

You speak from the stance of a Brawl player. Because of this, you would most likely see the negative from the other side more readily, but let me assure you that the vitriol from the Brawl community is at least equivalent, but I won't venture to say it's worse as I don't speak without evidence.

If you're on the Project M side of things, you experience both sides. You're under the scrutiny of Melee and Brawl players alike, and from my experience, I've been harassed by more representatives of the Brawl community. Things have been said that I would not repeat here as it makes me sick to my stomach. Some involve threats to my family. I took it calmly as it was just the ramblings of an angry, sad person. Mind you, I have spoken to many in that community and am friends with representatives from that community. Like in any group, there are bad eggs that make either group look bad.

My argument was that there is in fact such a thing as Brawl elitism. You try to divert the argument by asserting that there are more Melee elitists (albeit without evidence) instead of staying on topic. The numbers do not matter in this instance. I am merely calling out negative attitudes that need to be adressed if we are to co-exist as a community. By excusing bas behaviour, you are not helping.

I have called out Brawl elitism (On arguments like being called a Meleetard) only to be told I was a Melee elitist for stating that this was in fact a form of elitism. The strategy of attempting to go "But you're worse!" is not conducive to good dialogue.

Melee elitism may be a thing for a small subset of people, but the Brawl community is not devoid of guilt and must be called-out just the same. As a representative, you should not be excusing that behaviour, but condemning it, just as I condemn any elitism coming from the Project M camp.

We may not like the same game, but we can help each other as smashers.

I'm not going to disagree there are a good share of actions from Brawl and Smash 4 Players and even Melee players on PM.

This is all deplorable on everyone who does if on others no matter which game.

My issue, and why I quoted you is that I take issue with you called it equivalent. I've seen as a mod far worse from Melee than anyone else in terms of raw hate. Or even just active trolling.

I condemn elitism and actively call people out on it. I have not once flaunted or ignored it from either side. My issue is that calling equivalent is far from the truth.

I'm seeing a lot of negative in here and that needs to stop from the trolling gallery.

I support your ending statement, 110%. What I don't is saying Brawl hasn't gotten the most flak, they definitely have.

 

[Gardex]

Please, spare me your patronization.

Look, your opinion of game preference/inclusion is none of my concern.

However, your arguments aren't exactly well-thought-out

 

[Dad'sHome]

Were you asleep the past six and a half years? Tournaments weren't even close to the size they are now before Brawl came out. I really shouldn't even bother responding to this since it's obvious from your other posts that you don't know what you're talking about.

You do understand that Brawl would have never been successful competitively if it wasn't for the competitive Melee community, right? If you're going to deny this, then yeah, we should probably stop this dialogue.

 

[Dad'sHome]

Look, your opinion of game preference/inclusion is none of my concern.

However, your arguments aren't exactly well-thought-out

Care to point out one of my arguments which isn't well though-out? Merely saying that they are not well thought-out doesn't make them so.

 

[Zoa]

I have a copy of the game, nice try

It was made by a real company, not a bunch of butthurt melee lovers ^^

You make my stomach churn with your nonsensical banter. P:M isn't made by any form of "butthurt Melee players". It was initially made about what it was like having Melee Falco in Brawl as a test. It expanded from there.

These completely irrational comments do nothing but serve to cause tension and divide the community even more so. Where do you get your information from anyways? From featured Melee mechanics in P:M? If so, then your line of rational thinking is skewed. These mechanics do nothing but expand on the game play. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. The mod even introduces elements from Smash 64 and Brawl.

It keeps aerial glide tossing, introduces Young Link aspects for Toon Link, and proceeds to take elements from the game series' themselves for use in P:M. I hate this line of thinking. It's obvious troll bait, or created by someone with such a narrow mind that absolutely refuses to entertain other logical possibilities as to why certain things were implemented again.

To all of you with this line of thinking:

Do everyone in the Smash community a service and keep this completely irrational thought process to yourselves. It only serves to divide the communities even more, and limit your perspectives as a human being. One of the key things of growing as a human being is learning to be tolerant of others' cultures and actions that do not impose upon you in any way. It's called acceptance.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

It's not a Nintendo game. But it's still a game, and it exists. Therefore, it is real. Therefore, it is a real game.

hm, I guess you are right. I guess I should say "authentic" then.. since it isn't authentic at all because it wasn't made my Nintendo

 

[Gardex]

Care to point out one of my arguments which aren't well though-out? Merely saying that they are not well thought-out doesn't make them so.

Felt like it would be redundant, considering others already have.

This is about the post i quoted:
- Your logic behind picking PM instead of Brawl can be used exactly the other way around.
- You also don't consider the very likely possibility that PM could've been excluded for other reasons than its spot "being taken".
- Not to mention it seems you'd rather remove Brawl, a smash game at the biggest smash tournament, over any of the other non-smash games listed.(This is an assumption though, but it would be strange to post what you did if this last point wasn't the case)

Once again, just to be clear: I'm not trying to bash your opinion, I just think your thought-process behind them were a bit iffy

 

[Vigilante]

@HBC | Red Ryu

I don't agree with you on the amount of flak each respective party gets, and I don't think we will agree either. I feel that the hate speech against PM in this comments section demonstrates my point.

Nevertheless, I will say this, and do not take it the wrong way: I am happy that you agree on the ending statement. My initial impression was that you would not, and I am pleasantly surprised to hear it.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

But its better than the game with the seal.
Thats like saying that Justin Bieber is a singer and some guy on the street who can sing and sings for money is not a singer, because Justin sells records. They're both singers. Now who is better? The guy on the street always.

I honestly don't get your reference you made. I wanna say "you cant mod a street performer into a super star" But I know Ill get my butt torn up for it

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

@HBC | Red Ryu

I don't agree with you on the amount of flak each respective party gets, and I don't think we will agree either. I feel that the hate speech against PM in this comments section demosntrates my point.

Nevertheless, I will say this, and do not take it the wrong way: I am happy that you agree on the ending statement. My initial impression was that you would not, and I am pleasantly surprised to hear it.

Ill just say this.. I hope you don't interpret my talk as going against PM because I'm not against it. It exists and I cant stop it from existing.
Double post, woops

 

[shapular]

You do understand that Brawl would have never been successful competitively if it wasn't for the competitive Melee community, right? If you're going to deny this, then yeah, we should probably stop this dialogue.

Impossible to say. Melee succeeded without Smash 64 having a significant competitive scene, and it wasn't nearly the fast-paced, exciting game it is today back in 2003. You can't say that Brawl wouldn't succeed competitively if it were hypothetically the first Smash game. People would have nothing to base opinions of Brawl on, and the game would be accepted for the good, fun game it is. Some people would decide they wanted to get good and beat all their friends at it just like they did with Melee, and maybe a competitive scene would develop. But it's an impossible assertion to prove or disprove because we don't have a universe where Brawl came out without an already existing competitive Smash community to support it.

 

[Vigilante]

Ill just say this.. I hope you don't interpret my talk as going against PM because I'm not against it. It exists and I cant stop it from existing.
Double post, woops

I would much rather see Project M there as to me, it is the game that bridged the gap between all communities. It brought people form all three games to play on a common game. Not having Project M there is like going back into segregating the communities.

Mind you, I don't mind if you are less of a fan of Project M. I can't force you to enjoy it, Though seeing the dev team work so hard I see it as a full-fledged game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why not remove Brawl instead of PM (especially since Brawl and Sm4sh are so similar)?

Because one is a mod and the other is not.

 

[Dad'sHome]

Felt like it would be redundant, considering others already have.

This is about the post i quoted:
- Your logic behind picking PM instead of Brawl can be used exactly the other way around.

How? "Brawl is a better pick because it's slow, campy, and struggles to provide hype for the stream; the definite choice."

Doesn't sound very convincing. This isn't a PM vs Brawl debate from the perspective of which game is better, but which game is better from a competitive stand-point, PM being the clear favourite.

- You also don't consider the very likely possibility that PM could've been excluded for other reasons than its spot "being taken".

Fair enough. The fact that PM isn't on the list and Sm4sh is is what made me think that they removed PM to open up another spot.

- Not to mention it seems you'd rather remove Brawl, a smash game at the biggest smash tournament, over any of the other non-smash games listed.(This is an assumption though, but it would be strange to post what you did if this last point wasn't the case)

As you've realized yourself, this is an assumption. To be honest, I don't care much for other fighting games, so I never thought that far. I care mainly about Smash.

Once again, just to be clear: I'm not trying to bash your opinion, I just think your thought-process behind them were a bit iffy

 

[Dad'sHome]

Because one is a mod and the other is not.

Unless Nintendo is sponsoring Apex, this argument has little to no weight.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Unless Nintendo is sponsoring Apex, this argument has little to no weight.

I think they are and thats why PM isnt in note I said I THINK Which mean Im not sure

 

[Vigilante]

Well, as opposed to proposing to remove Brawl, I think it's just more reasonable to propose having both at Apex.

 

[Dad'sHome]

I think they are and thats why PM isnt in note I said I THINK Which mean Im not sure

Really? I was just on the Apex website, and I didn't see any Nintendo logo.

If somebody could confirm whether or not it's true, that would be great.

 

[Gardex]

How? "Brawl is a better pick because it's slow, campy, and struggles to provide hype for the stream; the definite choice."

Doesn't sound very convincing. This isn't a PM vs Brawl debate from the perspective of which game is better, but which game is better from a competitive stand-point, PM being the clear favourite.

You said "Why not remove Brawl instead of PM (especially since Brawl and Sm4sh are so similar)?". This is the notion that I'm addressing.

It works the other way around: Why not remove PM instead of Brawl (especially since Melee and PM are so similar)?

People will have different views on degrees of similarities, but the point still stands. I'm not talking about competitive value and the likes; those discussions never go anywhere

 

[Dad'sHome]

You said "Why not remove Brawl instead of PM (especially since Brawl and Sm4sh are so similar)?". This is the notion that I'm addressing.

It works the other way around: Why not remove PM instead of Brawl (especially since Melee and PM are so similar)?

People will have different views on degrees of similarities, but the point still stands. I'm not talking about competitive value and the likes; those discussions never go anywhere

Oh, ok, I see what you're saying. I misunderstood your intentions.