Apex 2013 Smash 64 January 11-13th, 2013 Singles Bracket is now up

[Tom Bombadil]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ibyycJGsZU tips guyz?

Probably doesn't mean a ton coming from a newer player like me but this is one of the best commentaries I've seen for smash. Many commentators fall into the trap of simply being an audience member and saying stuff like "wow cool combo" or "that was perfect edge-guarding." You, on the other hand, explained the strategies the players were using based on their characters and explained why things were working for them rather than just stating that they were working. Also, I liked the "lore" part of commentating. You did this a little talking about Isai's signature Link costume. It really has nothing to do with the match but I enjoy it all the same, it makes me feel like part of the community to know things like that.

I would imagine commentating is especially difficult in the smash community. Normally (in other games/sports) you can simply explain the basics of the game over and over because the majority of your audience is ignorant and simply looking for entertainment. However, ssb64 by-and-large is a very knowledgeable community and explaining things like, "we call it a spike when you hit your opponent down off the edge like that," isn't going to do it for anyone. You also don't want to go the other direction and explain nothing because you assume everyone watching knows what's going on. If you want to broaden the community, you're going to have to explain some stuff that might be obvious to some high level players.

This is what I think is great in a commentary for smash:
- Discuss relationships between the characters and stage and characters
- Predict some themes for the match ("Pika is really just trying to aerial to grab and then ledgeguard" or whatever is applicable)
- "Lore" about the players (maybe it's a rivalry or there are some fun facts about the players)
- Explain why things worked or where a player made a mistake
- Comment on very advanced techniques that some players may not have seen (parrying, CCing, anything that you would only expect a high-level player to use)
- Talk about the match in respect to the broader smash community
- Avoid talking about how much better you are than the people playing

Looking back on this list, you have fulfilled most of my qualities of a good commentator. I definitely think commentaries are a huge step in strengthening the smash community, especially in explaining high level games to newer players.

Great job, hope you get it man

 

[prisonchild]

that was pretty good cow, need more bass in your voice though..


i could see you working well with a colour commentator

 

[Battlecow]

THANKS Tom, means a lot. I like lore stuff too but I didn't go into it as much as I could've because some people DON'T (for example kefit has said he's bad at the link MU and I could've done a bit on how I think WA's console-heavy old-school playstyles interact with ISAI)


Thanks prisonchild, and yeah my voice sounds super sexy when I'm saying things and then all high and reedy when I'm listening to myself. ugh.

I could color commentate as well I think, but it's a no-no getting hype and color-commentating a two-year-old match that you've seen before.

--------------------------

Clubba we shouldn't go by pro sports any more than we should go by melee (less, in fact, if anything).

But what you're saying makes sense; I thought you were talking about winner getting picks but switching off isn't unreasonable

OK here's what I think about that: in b03 matches it comes to the same thing; neutral then they each get one pick.

in b05's, I'm kind of leaning towards agreeing with you. I don't hate either way, but you're right; it's more competitive with switching off. who picks first though? Coin flip? I'd say if we're going to leave it up to chance like that we might as well give it to the loser for crowd-pleasing's sake.

As for not being able to pick back to any one stage, it's good here because having more than one match on hyrule is ugh, but in a reasonable (i.e. hyrule banned) ruleset, I'm in favor of competition more than stage diversity and I defs think that there shouldn't be and sort of DSR in effect.

 

[TANK64]

Relax guys nobody's gonna break anything by using a keyboard lol
The point of console ssb64 is to play with your opponent sitting next to you without any frame delay.

Wut. DI? Pretty sure online has shown us that Keyboard DI can break the game. If you're way better than your opponent than you can claim it "didn't change the outcome," but what happens when you get a player who is really good AND has hax DI that you cannot get with a controller on console? *cough*Killer*cough*.

I want to get beaten by skill, reaction, and smarts. Not by better specs...

I just don't see why y'all would open up that door, when it has been appropriately closed for so many years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ibyycJGsZU tips guyz?

Pleasantly surprised. Very nice.

 

[Battlecow]

Is killer keyboard?

also THANKS TANKS

 

[TANK64]

Also what Tom said.

Obv you were talking a bit too much, but you didn't have a partner so I def liked it.

and omg @PrisonChild's avatar and location 0___(o)

 

[Battlecow]

Ever make any conjugal visits, tank? It's the only explanation.

Yeah with 2 peeps it's differenttttt

 

[Yobolight]

The Battlecow commentary was top notch, but only if he hadn't already watched the match before hand.

 

[Nintendude]

I'm not convinced that "keyboard DI" is 100% attributable to the keyboard. I played keyboard for like 4 years and I was never able to achieve this absurd DI that people talk about. How do you know that people with crazy DI aren't using a macro or rapid-fire input?

 

[Han Solo]

So, I just noticed that we're back to 64 entrants. Did two people get refunds or did someone move the cap back to 64?

 

[Battlecow]

The Battlecow commentary was top notch, but only if he hadn't already watched the match before hand.

I saw it in 2010, didn't remember a thing

I knew it was on DL from the YT thumbnail and the players + characters, but that's it

My KB DI was never great when I played KB either

it's back up to 65 now

mexico and canada need to step it up

 

[Dingus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ibyycJGsZU tips guyz?

Like others have said, your commentary was good. It was informative and professional. I think you spent a little too much time just saying what was happening "he did a back-air" "he just did a forward air" etc. When they are spacing, talk about what each is trying to accomplish, instead of just saying what they are physically doing.

I like that you talked about the matchup in the beginning. I would have liked more information on what specifically makes it good / bad / even.

 

[M!nt]

>keyboard di breaks the game

lol what a ridiculous statement, you should feel bad.

Also im under the impression that if you can do keyboard di really good then you could probably do controller di pretty good as well. Its not hard to learn that someones gonna di something and adapt to it, just means you cant rely on auto combos so much. not game breaking.

 

[M!nt]

oh yeah gj battlecow, really enjoyable

also I love your voice c:

 

[Olikus]

Additional Rules

Any stage may be played on if both players agree to it.


What

the

****

seriously wtf.

 

[Battlecow]

lol why would you not do that? It makes all the sense in the world. That's just a given. If BOTH players want to play one way, why wouldn't you let them? Example would be me and tank doing our hyrule-banned thing

thanks dingus + wintergreen, dingus you make a good point and I'll take it under consideration.

 

[prisonchild]

Thanks prisonchild, and yeah my voice sounds super sexy when I'm saying things and then all high and reedy when I'm listening to myself. ugh.

I could color commentate as well I think, but it's a no-no getting hype and color-commentating a two-year-old match that you've seen before.

haha i get the same thing, i walk around thinking i have a mans voice and then when i hear myself played back it's like i'm in highschool :/

and i figured you were talking a lot only because you were by yourself, i think it would've been funny if you talked like the british soccer commentators who do games by themselves.

btw i think your voice is good for the commentating you did, don't ask me why but i was expecting to hear a real nerdy voice and i was pleasantly surprised.

and omg @PrisonChild's avatar and location 0___(o)

what's wrong with toronto?

>keyboard di breaks the game

lol what a ridiculous statement, you should feel bad.

keyboard di doesn't break the game, it just.... bends it?



i still wouldn't feel comfortable with keyboards being allowed in a console tournament even if there weren't any significant advantages.








PS is it too early to make a PREDICTIONS thread?

 

[clubbadubba]

Serious hypothetical, if both players want to play a game of S.M.A.S.H to decide the winner of their set, is that okay?

You right bcow, pro sports is no less applicable than melee, my bad. Glad you agree its more fair to switch off though. I'd be okay with loser picks stage first if the crowd needs pleasing, though maybe flipping a coin or something else random would be better.

@mint don't you see that you just admitted the problem with kb? When playing against a keyboard player, you "can't rely on auto combos so much." However by that same logic, when playing a controller player, you 'can rely on auto combos so much' (**** english right?). So when a controller player goes up against a keyboard, one of the players gets auto combos and the other doesn't? Doesn't seem fair.

And yes, we all know controllers can di out of combos as well. But keyboard has BETTER di, that is a fact. There is never a situation where players would be able to di with controller but not with keyboard, but there are many situations when players would be able to di with keyboards but not with controllers. It is an ADVANTAGE. People can squabble about the significance of the advantage all they want, but the fact remains that the advantage exists from the moment the players sit down to play.

also, my voice always sounds deeper when I hear it on video or something. guess I'm just a man. wut.

 

[prisonchild]

Serious hypothetical, if both players want to play a game of S.M.A.S.H to decide the winner of their set, is that okay?

i'd have to say no, leave that kind of stuff for the allstar game

 

[Battlecow]

Serious hypothetical, if both players want to play a game of S.M.A.S.H to decide the winner of their set, is that okay?

You right bcow, pro sports is no less applicable than melee, my bad. Glad you agree its more fair to switch off though. I'd be okay with loser picks stage first if the crowd needs pleasing, though maybe flipping a coin or something else random would be better.

@mint don't you see that you just admitted the problem with kb? When playing against a keyboard player, you "can't rely on auto combos so much." However by that same logic, when playing a controller player, you 'can rely on auto combos so much' (**** english right?). So when a controller player goes up against a keyboard, one of the players gets auto combos and the other doesn't? Doesn't seem fair.

And yes, we all know controllers can di out of combos as well. But keyboard has BETTER di, that is a fact. There is never a situation where players would be able to di with controller but not with keyboard, but there are many situations when players would be able to di with keyboards but not with controllers. It is an ADVANTAGE. People can squabble about the significance of the advantage all they want, but the fact remains that the advantage exists from the moment the players sit down to play.

also, my voice always sounds deeper when I hear it on video or something. guess I'm just a man. wut.

yeah you've got my support when new-ruleset time comes and you propose it

unless someone gives a super-good argument that I hadn't thought of

And I wouldn't say KB's give an advantage. They do give a DI advantage, but there are many things that are difficult or impossible to do with KB that you can do easily on console.

 

[Kefit]

Official ruleset is posted: http://www.apex-series.com/rules/rules-64/

There is no timer rule whatsoever.
Congo / Dreamland / Hyrule stage striking for game 1.
Another modified version of DSR: you can't pick a stage you won on that you picked. Basically it's DSR except it doesn't apply to the first stage. It's designed to take less weight off of game 1 in the situation where one player always CPs Dreamland and wins and the other player always CPs Hyrule and wins, as now another stage has to be played on.

Also, we will be paying out full top-8 this time. There will be consolation matches to break 5th and 7th place ties.

Why in the world are there so many best of 5 matches? Do you realize that this ruleset ameliorates NONE of the match length issues that we discussed for pages on end, and in fact exacerbates the issue by adding additional five game tie breaking matches? This is utterly ridiculous. Please explain to me why you feel the need to not only make the fatigue issues faced by players last year worse, but also to deviate so much from traditional and demonstrably effective set length standards used in tournaments for many other fighting games, both Smash series and not.

 

[Battlecow]

There's one additional bo5 set compared to standard melee set length plus a couple tiebreakers. With the one-hyrule-win-per-match thing, this makes it even shorter than last year.

this is SHORTER than what the 64BR recommends

I fully support current set lengths, and in fact given my druthers I'd make the LF-WF-GF sets longer. It's a matter of testing real player skill

As for "player fatigue" issues, you're the only one I've heard complain. I know that isai (not invoking his name as magic but just as an example) likes bo7 sets as a minimum for skill-testing purposes.

 

[clubbadubba]

Yea i dunno where the issue of length is coming from. Kefit was super tired because he flew cross country like the day before the tourney, we can't make rulesets to account for jetlag dude. I think everyone else was fine with how long it took. I mean after the tournament, we just played more smash... for 5 days.

KB gives clear advantage for DI.

Other advantages are not so clear or objectively identifiable. KB has some advantages over controller in terms of movement as well. But the only one you can really point to and say "that is an advantage" is the DI.

 

[SheerMadness]

Why in the world are there so many best of 5 matches? Do you realize that this ruleset ameliorates NONE of the match length issues that we discussed for pages on end, and in fact exacerbates the issue by adding additional five game tie breaking matches? This is utterly ridiculous. Please explain to me why you feel the need to not only make the fatigue issues faced by players last year worse, but also to deviate so much from traditional and demonstrably effective set length standards used in tournaments for many other fighting games, both Smash series and not.

What? A lot of big smash tourneys have bo5 sets when it gets to winner's semis.

That's the way it should be IMO.

 

[Nintendude]

What sheer said. We removed best of 5 for winners quarters and best of 7s altogether. Consolation matches don't actually add any time to the tournament since by the time the ties are established, there's only like 2 setups being used for the rest of the bracket anyway.

 

[weedwack]

I exacerbated all over your ameliorate

 

[Nintendude]

The only thing we changed from the Melee standards is doing LQ as best of 5 since imo its really dumb to play a best of 5 in winners semis only to go back to a best of 3 if you lose.

 

[Kefit]

Yea i dunno where the issue of length is coming from.

Well gee I wonder where this issue we discussed at length for many pages could have possibly come from. Surely it must have been fabricated out of thin air. Oh wait:

Other than camping, there are two other notable factors for why Apex 2012 took a long time, both of which have been mentioned: Stock count and set length

On the topic of set length:

What? A lot of big smash tourneys have bo5 sets when it gets to winner's semis.

Cool story bro.

However, this is the same thing that longer set lengths are meant to address. Why do we run quarters and semis as best of 5 and WF, LF, and GFs as best of 7? It produces more accurate results but it takes a really really long time. Other Smash tournaments typically only do WFs, LFs, and GFs as best of 5 and that's it.

It's quite clear to me at this point that the playerbase and the powers that be have no clue how to design a tournament optimized for competition and entertainment. We should be running a temporal snapshot of SSB64 that highlights all the best aspects of the game and its players, not an end all be all final ranking system of all players that play, ever have played, and ever will play the game.

Whatever.

I'm still gonna kick all your ***** when tournament time comes

I exacerbated all over your ameliorate

I'm sorry that fairly simple English words used in a correct and highly communicative manner awe you into a state of sophomoric languor.

 

[Han Solo]

Jel and banze, I accept your MMs.

Current list of MMs:
Nintendude, $10
firo, $10
ballin4life, $10
boom's puff on DL, $10
Battlecow, DL only $10
Tank, $5
chain-ace, Fox ditto DL, is $5 good?
Jel, $5
banze, $10


Sensei, I will face your Puff for $5 on DL only.




Money to be had: $80
Come get some.

 

[Battlecow]

I'm sorry that fairly simple English words used in a correct and highly communicative manner awe you into a state of sophomoric languor.

Man you were doing so well then you had to go and do that

tsk tsk tsk

"highly communicative"? "languor," in that sense? Amping up the verbiage to the point where he can't control it in an effort to show off? Kefit confirmed for not-as-smart-as-he-thinks-he-is tier

post that sparked it was fine tho

 

[clubbadubba]

Jel and banze, I accept your MMs.

Current list of MMs:
Nintendude, $10
firo, $10
ballin4life, $10
boom's puff on DL, $10
Battlecow, DL only $10
Tank, $5
chain-ace, Fox ditto DL, is $5 good?
Jel, $5
banze, $10


Sensei, I will face your Puff for $5 on DL only.




Money to be had: $80
Come get some.

han, that's one hell of a list of money matches. You're gonna lose like $60-70 bucks though...

 

[TANK64]

Serious hypothetical, if both players want to play a game of S.M.A.S.H to decide the winner of their set, is that okay?

<3

@mint don't you see that you just admitted the problem with kb? When playing against a keyboard player, you "can't rely on auto combos so much." However by that same logic, when playing a controller player, you 'can rely on auto combos so much' (**** english right?). So when a controller player goes up against a keyboard, one of the players gets auto combos and the other doesn't? Doesn't seem fair.

qft

And yes, we all know controllers can di out of combos as well. But keyboard has BETTER di, that is a fact. There is never a situation where players would be able to di with controller but not with keyboard, but there are many situations when players would be able to di with keyboards but not with controllers. It is an ADVANTAGE. People can squabble about the significance of the advantage all they want, but the fact remains that the advantage exists from the moment the players sit down to play.

qft

I love it when clubba says everything I'm thinking before I even get to the thread lol. There's no reason to even quote mint at this point. Kb DI does bend and break the game. If you haven't seen this proved online yet, then idk what to tell you.

 

[Kefit]

Man you were doing so well then you had to go and do that

tsk tsk tsk

"highly communicative"? "languor," in that sense? Amping up the verbiage to the point where he can't control it in an effort to show off? Kefit confirmed for not-as-smart-as-he-thinks-he-is tier

post that sparked it was fine tho

Perhaps you missed the subtle irony of me intentionally amping up the verbiage to silly levels in an attempt to permanently enthrall and thus mentally enslave this puny individual.

 

[Nintendude]

Kefit if you actually have a better idea for how to run the bracket then let us know what your thoughts are.

 

[TANK64]

Perhaps you missed the subtle irony of me intentionally amping up the verbiage to silly levels in an attempt to permanently enthrall and thus mentally enslave this puny individual.

Seriously. Bcow, I expected more. Ya kinda just got served.

 

[banze]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ibyycJGsZU tips guyz?

really liked this vid!
like others sad, this needs more color but it is a 2 years old macht so its understantable

enjoy it!

 

[Kefit]

I think I've made my ideas clear and backed them up with scintillating arguments throughout the last couple of weeks. But to summarize, either:

1) All sets best of 3 except for WF, LF, and GF. If you really, truly want more then Loser's Semi's would be reasonable as well. There's no compelling reason to do best of 5 for Winner's Semi's since both players potentially have several matches ahead of them at that point.

2) Shake things up and ban Hyrule.

We're all going to Smash our brains out at Apex, whether in the tournament or not. My goal is just to have the best Smashing possible take place during the tournament. The best Smashing possible is Smashing that isn't overly burdened by the player fatigue and spectator weariness inherently created by long, highly conservative, ultra competitive matches.

 

[weedwack]

The post could have been interpreted in any number of ways. The fact that you choose the most offensive interpretation speaks more to your sophomoricity than mine.

But i forgot how bitter my humor is when im not there in person to deliver it personally in a jesting manner. And for this I apolo

Spoiler

Megavolt is going to decimate you at apex again

gize

 

[KnitePhox]

lol keyboards in a console tourney. Well they probably won't be there this year, but hey if they are, at least then I won't mind missing the tourney as much.

Spoiler

seriously, keyboards on console lololololololololol

with a hori controller board and a mechanical keyboard i am 95+% sure i can make a kb adapter with pressure sensitivity for tilts. all i'd need is either the money for parts+labor all at once or parts shipped to me and labor after finished product. i'd be down to make it.

i have no publicly visible mod reputation(as of yet, 1[might do 2nd]OC console incoming), but i have access to and experience with pretty much any of the tools i would need already. even though i kind of despise the thought of kb console controllers, the challenge seems intriguing to me and the look on kb haters face while showing up to a tourney with a keyboard would be kool.

 

[Nintendude]

I think I've made my ideas clear and backed them up with scintillating arguments throughout the last couple of weeks. But to summarize, either:

1) All sets best of 3 except for WF, LF, and GF. If you really, truly want more then Loser's Semi's would be reasonable as well. There's no compelling reason to do best of 5 for Winner's Semi's since both players potentially have several matches ahead of them at that point.

2) Shake things up and ban Hyrule.

We're all going to Smash our brains out at Apex, whether in the tournament or not. My goal is just to have the best Smashing possible take place during the tournament. The best Smashing possible is Smashing that isn't overly burdened by the player fatigue and spectator weariness inherently created by long, highly conservative, ultra competitive matches.

Ok, well my rationale is to strike a balance between tournament length and getting as many great bracket matches as possible. For me the compelling reason to have more best of 5s is that there is only 1 or 2 large SSB tournaments per year, so I don't want to put much on the chopping block. I cut out a little bit of the fat and I think it'll make a difference without dumbing things down too much. Also, the new variant of DSR will likely reduce the number of games on Hyrule per best of 5 set.