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Anything Can Change! Chrom for SSB4 - Closing Remarks, and an Invitation

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Second Power

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I don't think betraying the character image in favour of an in-game mechanic is worth accomplishing something you can still accomplish without having to do so. I can explain.

Basically, Chrom could in theory use a lot of pokes and horizontal swings while extending forward. These attacks have very linear hitboxes, much like a spear would have. Of course using a spear still has hitbox possibilities that are unique to it, like twirling or spinning the spear as you would a staff, but not enough to merit making it a primary weapon.

I could totally see Chrom beasting things up by wielding a spear in one hand and the Falchion in another, and having that support some of his moves just because it's cooler, but his entire game should at least focus on his trademark blade.
Don't disagree with your logic, but do disagree with your conclusions.
  1. Directed at your second paragraph; Spears have a lot more range than swords. 6 ft is the bare minimum for a middle age spear, while arming swords from the same period never go above 3 ft. The extra range makes it different. There's also the obvious fact of aesthetic.
  2. To your third paragraph (specifically "his entire game should at least focus on his trademark blade"); I believe that my idea did a better job of showing off his Falchion. It is portrayed as something special in my idea, above other weapons (or weapon in this case). To use an anecdote, when I played Melee, had no idea who Marth was. The first time I found out that his sword was anything special was because of Snake's codec. Prior, I had just thought it was an ordinary sword, being given nothing to believe it was different. I think that with Chrom's moveset like I described, it's quite clear his sword is special.
@ Unicorn Unicorn See point two. Using his sword only for specials makes it stand out more.
 
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Unicorn

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If Chrom's fighting style does not focus on the Falchion, then we may as well not have him as a character. The Falchion is the second most important "artifact" to the Fire Emblem series, outclassed only by the fire emblem itself. Wielding the Falchion and the Exalted Falchion are as integral to his character as


being Grima is to Robin's character.

I don't want Chrom using a lance; If we needed a lance user we would have gotten Ephraim or Nephenee, or Eliwood (cuz Durandal is longer than most lances anyways)
The lance could very well be a supporting part of his moveset as a neutral B projectile or whatever, but having Chrom without his sword would be like having Ganondorf without his sword so wrong for me as a fan of Fire Emblem I would rather not have him at all.

There are many other things that can be done to make Chrom unique that don't compromise the integrity of what he is.

Chrom for SSB4.
/rant
 

Hong

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Don't disagree with your logic, but do disagree with your conclusions.
  1. Directed at your second paragraph; Spears have a lot more range than swords. 6 ft is the bare minimum for a middle age spear, while arming swords from the same period never go above 3 ft. The extra range makes it different. There's also the obvious fact of aesthetic.
Irrelevant.

A lot of the spears in Awakening do not follow those guidelines; the javelin is shorter than swords held in some characters hands. What is more is the fact that the slashes characters have used in Smash Bros, if you look at the hitbox data, betray the actual blade itself. What is more is range is not the same as reach; the master sword has decent range, but Link himself does not have a lot of reach. This is because the character uses stiff motions in his attacks. Marth, comparatively, has a sidelong stance and leans into many of his attacks.

This is also why the lance length argument is entirely irrelevant: Not sure how savvy you are with martial arts, but lances are not swing from the furthest end of the weapon. The hand is positioned much closer to the middle. Even in the realms of fantasy where it is much easier to hold it with one hand for the rule of cool, you can clearly see in any Fire Emblem ever that the characters hold the weapon closer to the centre and the range advantage is not as pronounced.

Not even in the Bandai Namco's own Soul Calibur series, which specializes in weapons, has had characters hold the lance at the furthest edge of the weapon. Neither the realism (pointless) or fantasy examples support those figures in the actual application of the weapon.

I never dismissed the fact lances are shorter, so much as the fact you can always accomplish the hitbox and overall properties regardless because it's a game.
  1. To your third paragraph (specifically "his entire game should at least focus on his trademark blade"); I believe that my idea did a better job of showing off his Falchion. It is portrayed as something special in my idea, above other weapons (or weapon in this case). To use an anecdote, when I played Melee, had no idea who Marth was. The first time I found out that his sword was anything special was because of Snake's codec. Prior, I had just thought it was an ordinary sword, being given nothing to believe it was different. I think that with Chrom's moveset like I described, it's quite clear his sword is special.
That is a view a lot of people would disagree with.

Many people could argue that is just more frustrating. Not as bad as Ganondorf, since in your example we would at least see it used occasionally. So much as you are relying on the exclusivity of it being used in special attacks to create the notoriety necessary to surpass it if his own trademark weapon was at the helm of his fighting style. That would be even worse if Link showed up and used his hammer for all his normals, since using other tools is at least part of Link's brand. Chrom scarcely using his sword is far and beyond more diminishing of the character than that, and that's saying a lot. Especially when he already uses the Falchion in a way that is far different than Marth.

And again, that is a very limited experience you refer to. I would say more people have read Marth's trophy in one of the two games he has appeared in than more people who have heard Snake's codecs, and I am sure everyone would agree with me.
 
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andimidna

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I'm starting to try to force myself to like Chrom again. He's very likely and I want to be excited when he gets revealed.

It's starting to work...
 

Niko Mar

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I mean, yeah, there are definitely ways to make Chrom a really unique addition, but I really don't see wielding both Falchions as a plausible outcome...
As some others have said, we need moar! Gimme Chrom with ten Falchions, wielding them all with different parts of his body.
 

Oblivion129

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I agree with moar Falchions. Every single attack should be Falchion related, and I think it should have two sweet spots, one on the tip and one on the hilt.
Nevermind, the whole sword should be a sweet spot.
 

Bowserlick

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CHROM MOVESET

Chrom obtains Roy's old mechanic. The base of his blade is his sweetspot. The tip is weak.

So how does Chrom land his attacks? Two methods: Leaping slashes to allow an opponent to be under the blade and chargeable aerial attacks to be released at the appropriate time.

Ground Attacks
A: A Knees the enemy
A,A: Knees and then extends a kick from the same leg
A,A,A: Knees, extends a kick from the same leg, then steps forward and swings a horizontal slash
Dash A: Holds sword flat toward the opponent and skids forward pushing with his sword (Like Bowser's dash attack with an item). A press of A will end the forward movement and have Chrom perform a horizontal slash.

Toward A: Twirls his body, hitting the enemy with his cape and performing a backhand slash while turning
Smash: Leaps forward and swings his sword to the floor.

Up A: Crosses arms while holding his sword, then lifts his arms up while uncrossing them, hacking above his head
Up Smash: Does a flip while holding his sword up

Down A: In a crouched position he slides his sword forward for a weak hit, then stands up while slashing upwards
Down Smash: Swings behind his body and comes full circle while standing

Aerial Attacks
(All Aerials can be charged, the charge increases attack and KO a small percentage, the main advantage is controlling timing of the attacks to land the base of the sword on the enemy)

A: Holds up his sword and does a somersault in the air, sweeping the blade around his curled body
Back A: Does an overhead arching back slash behind his body
Forward A: Does a rising slash in front of him
Up A: Holds arms out as if forming a cross and then slashes upwards
Down A: Swings downwards at a slight diagonal from his body

Grabs
Pummel: A Knee
Forward: Slams the hilt of his sword on their head and pushes the enemy away with his other arm
Back: Swings them around and gives them a kick in the rear
Down: Performs a choke-hold and does a flip, slamming the enemy to the ground
Up: Does a squat and chucks them in the air with one hand

Specials
B Luna: Sword glows silver while Chrom holds it upwards. Slowly pulls in items and enemies in the nearby vicinity if grounded. Chrom slashes downward on release of B. In the air, this attack can slightly decrease nearby airborne character's momentum.

Side B Lance (air): Leaps forward in an arch while taking out his lance. Press of A while cause him to thrust the lance downwards and forward for a good amount of damage and stun. If he attacks, he goes into fall animation after.

Side B Lance (ground): Takes out lance quickly and pole vaults high into the air. Still gets two jumps and is allowed to attack, but can no longer use Side B unless he lands.

Up B Dual Slash: Launches completely vertical with some distance and slashes upwards, the second direction can be chosen and Chrom will rush that way (same distance as the first rush-down) with another slash

Down B Aegis: Creates a mystical shield in front of him. Lasts as long as the other Fire Emblem counters. Instead of an outright counter, the aura shield will absorb any small hits, but shatter with a splash effect of shards on a projectile or attack doing greater than 10 percent damage resulting in high stun.
 
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I have a question for those of you familiar with Awakening and Chrom specifically.

Does Chrom use his sword exclusively one-handedly, or can he fight two-handed as well?

If he does use his sword two-handedly as well, why not give him the Blossfechten fighting style? Blossfechten is the Germanic martial art of fighting two-handed with a longsword when wearing minimal armor (there's a different fighting style, Harnischfechten, that encompasses armored swordplay, and it's one-handed, so a distinction is made between them). It would be accurate for the kind of character he is while also giving us a completely new fighting style.
 

Bowserlick

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Marth is more powerful at the tip.
Chrom is more powerful at the base.
Ike is powerful everywhere.
 

Opossum

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I have a question for those of you familiar with Awakening and Chrom specifically.

Does Chrom use his sword exclusively one-handedly, or can he fight two-handed as well?

If he does use his sword two-handedly as well, why not give him the Blossfechten fighting style? Blossfechten is the Germanic martial art of fighting two-handed with a longsword when wearing minimal armor (there's a different fighting style, Harnischfechten, that encompasses armored swordplay, and it's one-handed, so a distinction is made between them). It would be accurate for the kind of character he is while also giving us a completely new fighting style.
To answer your question, Chrom does switch between two and one handed swings. Here are some cutscenes to give you an idea.


 

Pacack

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To answer your question, Chrom does switch between two and one handed swings. Here are some cutscenes to give you an idea.


Yeah, his style when using his falchion double handed would definitely make a unique character. Since it's swords we're talking about, there are quite a few highly developed martial arts to pull from.
 
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Second Power

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I have a question for those of you familiar with Awakening and Chrom specifically.

Does Chrom use his sword exclusively one-handedly, or can he fight two-handed as well?

If he does use his sword two-handedly as well, why not give him the Blossfechten fighting style? Blossfechten is the Germanic martial art of fighting two-handed with a longsword when wearing minimal armor (there's a different fighting style, Harnischfechten, that encompasses armored swordplay, and it's one-handed, so a distinction is made between them). It would be accurate for the kind of character he is while also giving us a completely new fighting style.
I've done some reading on the Blossfechten, so I'm interested in here more on this from you, if possible. You've given me an idea regarding this, but I'd like to hear from you first.
 

andimidna

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I have a question for those of you familiar with Awakening and Chrom specifically.

Does Chrom use his sword exclusively one-handedly, or can he fight two-handed as well?

If he does use his sword two-handedly as well, why not give him the Blossfechten fighting style? Blossfechten is the Germanic martial art of fighting two-handed with a longsword when wearing minimal armor (there's a different fighting style, Harnischfechten, that encompasses armored swordplay, and it's one-handed, so a distinction is made between them). It would be accurate for the kind of character he is while also giving us a completely new fighting style.
When I think of a two-handed sword-fighter, I think of Takamaru.
I don't know anything about German Martial Arts, but if Takamaru was added, would that be similar to how he would most likely play?
 

Pacack

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I've done some reading on the Blossfechten, so I'm interested in here more on this from you, if possible. You've given me an idea regarding this, but I'd like to hear from you first.
The first place to go is this wikipedia article.

There are five principles in blossfechten that the art is built upon. Vor, noch, swach, stark, and Indes. The words mean before, after, weak, strong, and meanwhile/interim.

Vor is offensive actions and nach is defensive actions. In blossfechten, a combatant must attempt to be in the vor (on the offensive) as much as possible. Since this is "unarmored" fighting, even one hit can be fatal, and being in the vor is preferable because you're more likely to hit first and less likely to be hit. Nach is more reactive; focusing on responding to the decisions made by the one in vor.

Swatch and stark are relating to how much force is applied in a bind of swords. Neither one is better. Swatch and stark simply contrast/compliment one another. Swatch is countered with stark and stak with swatch (strong force counters weak force and vice versa).

Indes is basically mindgames. Wikipedia says it well. "At the instant of contact with the opponent's blade, an experienced fencer uses 'feeling' (fühlen) to immediately sense his opponent's pressure in order to know whether he should be "weak or "strong" against him. He then either attacks using the "vor" or remains in the bind until his opponent acts, depending on what he feels is right. When his opponent starts to act, the fencer acts "indes" (meanwhile) and regains the "vor" before the opponent can finish his action."


Now, applying that to Smash Bros. is fairly simple. It can be implemented as an unoffensive gimmick (like Marth's tips).

How? Simple. Give him a special mechanic which motivates him to clash attacks with his opponent by making it cancel his attacks' ending lag (make it possible to attack immediately after) and/or make it increase frame lag for his opponent (making it easier to hit them) to put you into an advantage and let you combo them (essentially getting the opponent into nach and you into vor). This mechanic would then be built upon the swatch and stark contrast of "weak force counters strong force and strong force counters weak force". What I mean is that Chrom will have to clank his weak moves with his opponent's strong moves and clank his strong moves with his opponent's weak moves. And, of course, the moves would still have combo ability because hitboxes don't affect clashes too much. Only genuine hits. So if he's on the offensive already, he already has the advantage. This gimmick just helps him get onto the offensive.


@andmidna Both European and Japanese swordplay have some similarities because...well, they're both swordplay. Fast reactions is always important in swordfighting, and there's always more emphasis on defense than popular culture would have you believe. However, they are very distinct martial arts and they would be more than different enough to justify having both. (And, ideally, Takamaru would only use his sword sometimes anyways. He uses mainly projectiles in his games, and he should be the same in Smash.)
 
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Yomi's Biggest Fan

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When I think of a two-handed sword-fighter, I think of Takamaru.
I don't know anything about German Martial Arts, but if Takamaru was added, would that be similar to how he would most likely play?
Minus the habit of sheathing and unsheathing the sword and striking mostly sideways.
 

Second Power

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The first place to go is this wikipedia article.

There are five principles in blossfechten that the art is built upon. Vor, noch, swach, stark, and Indes. The words mean before, after, weak, strong, and meanwhile/interim.

Vor is offensive actions and nach is defensive actions. In blossfechten, a combatant must attempt to be in the vor (on the offensive) as much as possible. Since this is "unarmored" fighting, even one hit can be fatal, and being in the vor is preferable because you're more likely to hit first and less likely to be hit. Nach is more reactive; focusing on responding to the decisions made by the one in vor.

Swatch and stark are relating to how much force is applied in a bind of swords. Neither one is better. Swatch and stark simply contrast/compliment one another. Swatch is countered with stark and stak with swatch (strong force counters weak force and vice versa).

Indes is basically mindgames. Wikipedia says it well. "At the instant of contact with the opponent's blade, an experienced fencer uses 'feeling' (fühlen) to immediately sense his opponent's pressure in order to know whether he should be "weak or "strong" against him. He then either attacks using the "vor" or remains in the bind until his opponent acts, depending on what he feels is right. When his opponent starts to act, the fencer acts "indes" (meanwhile) and regains the "vor" before the opponent can finish his action."


Now, applying that to Smash Bros. is fairly simple. It can be implemented as an unoffensive gimmick (like Marth's tips).

How? Simple. Give him a special mechanic which motivates him to clash attacks with his opponent by making it cancel his attacks' ending lag (make it possible to attack immediately after) and/or make it increase frame lag for his opponent (making it easier to hit them) to put you into an advantage and let you combo them (essentially getting the opponent into nach and you into vor). This mechanic would then be built upon the swatch and stark contrast of "weak force counters strong force and strong force counters weak force". What I mean is that Chrom will have to clank his weak moves with his opponent's strong moves and clank his strong moves with his opponent's weak moves. And, of course, the moves would still have combo ability because hitboxes don't affect clashes too much. Only genuine hits. So if he's on the offensive already, he already has the advantage. This gimmick just helps him get onto the offensive.


@andmidna Both European and Japanese swordplay have some similarities because...well, they're both swordplay. Fast reactions is always important in swordfighting, and there's always more emphasis on defense than popular culture would have you believe. However, they are very distinct martial arts and they would be more than different enough to justify having both. (And, ideally, Takamaru would only use his sword sometimes anyways. He uses mainly projectiles in his games, and he should be the same in Smash.)
Heavy focus on clanking is probably the most apt way to apply the Blossfechten, I agree entirely. Even before getting into the exclusive mechanic you described, there's really no character who focuses on using the clanking mechanics. Even in competitive matches, I rarely see people intentionally put them into use, which stinks because I think their an interesting mechanic. This is probably my favorite idea for Chrom yet.
 

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Heavy focus on clanking is probably the most apt way to apply the Blossfechten, I agree entirely. Even before getting into the exclusive mechanic you described, there's really no character who focuses on using the clanking mechanics. Even in competitive matches, I rarely see people intentionally put them into use, which stinks because I think their an interesting mechanic. This is probably my favorite idea for Chrom yet.
<3
 

Oblivion129

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How? Simple. Give him a special mechanic which motivates him to clash attacks with his opponent by making it cancel his attacks' ending lag (make it possible to attack immediately after) and/or make it increase frame lag for his opponent (making it easier to hit them) to put you into an advantage and let you combo them (essentially getting the opponent into nach and you into vor). This mechanic would then be built upon the swatch and stark contrast of "weak force counters strong force and strong force counters weak force". What I mean is that Chrom will have to clank his weak moves with his opponent's strong moves and clank his strong moves with his opponent's weak moves. And, of course, the moves would still have combo ability because hitboxes don't affect clashes too much. Only genuine hits. So if he's on the offensive already, he already has the advantage. This gimmick just helps him get onto the offensive.
I'm hyped to try this out. I'm not sure if Sakurai would get THAT creative, though. A thrust-forward + hilt sweet-spot style gameplay is what I realistically believe, but your idea is epic.
 

Pacack

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I'm hyped to try this out. I'm not sure if Sakurai would get THAT creative, though. A thrust-forward + hilt sweet-spot style gameplay is what I realistically believe, but your idea is epic.
I don't know about that. We've had a lot of gimmicky characters this time around. So let's hope!
 

Scoliosis Jones

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Yet ANOTHER user who shows to the haters that Chrom can be unique. The tears! HOW I LOVE THE TASTE!
 

Scoliosis Jones

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Wasn't my purpose, believe it or not. I was just reading up on two-handed European swordplay and was curious if there was a character it would make sense for. Chrom stood out.
Even if it wasn't your purpose, it still gives light as to exactly how Chrom can stand out, even if he has blue hair. That's why people think he's lame and what have you. Most people didn't want him in fear of Ike getting cut, which is no longer a threat.

Either way, I like your ideas. I think they'd fit Chrom well.
 

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Even if it wasn't your purpose, it still gives light as to exactly how Chrom can stand out, even if he has blue hair. That's why people think he's lame and what have you. Most people didn't want him in fear of Ike getting cut, which is no longer a threat.

Either way, I like your ideas. I think they'd fit Chrom well.
I'd still prefer Robin just because we don't have a Fire Emblem mage yet, but I'd be okay with Chrom if he's different. And he does have the advantage of having possible playstyles practically already invented by a martial art or two.
 

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Yet ANOTHER user who shows to the haters that Chrom can be unique. The tears! HOW I LOVE THE TASTE!
People seriously need to educate themselves on the subject of sword fighting before making ignorant assumptions like "he has a sword! he can't be unique! we already have so many of those!". Nevermind that Marth is the closest we have to a proper swordfighter. Even Ike himself swings his sword like an axe.

Kinda like the people who thought you can't make a moveset for Mac because "he only punches". I'm no swordfighter, but I do box, and seeing that crap annoyed me.
 
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Hong

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I don't think anyone is really writing off Chrom because he is a sword user.
 

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I don't think anyone is really writing off Chrom because he is a sword user.
Yeah, I forgot the blue hair part.

He is a bland character and there are better choices, but the biggest argument against him (as far as I'm concerned) is that he uses a sword.
 

Hong

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Yeah, I forgot the blue hair part.

He is a bland character and there are better choices, but the biggest argument against him (as far as I'm concerned) is that he uses a sword.
That's a real shame.

I don't even think having a sword really defines someone all that much. For example, every martial art has its style and interpretation of the use of weapons. Since I have learned southern wu dang kung fu, the way I have been taught to use a sword would even be different than someone else who had learned kung fu of the northern variety.

It certainly helps to define a character, but there is so much more than that. If Link's Master Sword was not so important to his image, he could still be a unique fighter without it, since his main point of focus is that of the first zoning character in all of Smash Bros.
 

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People seriously need to educate themselves on the subject of sword fighting before making ignorant assumptions like "he has a sword! he can't be unique! we already have so many of those!". Nevermind that Marth is the closest we have to a proper swordfighter. Even Ike himself swings his sword like an axe.

Kinda like the people who thought you can't make a moveset for Mac because "he only punches". I'm no swordfighter, but I do box, and seeing that crap annoyed me.
To be fair, Ike was trained in sword fighting by Greil and Titania (axe fighters).

And it's not that Chrom can't be unique, it's that having all the Fire Emblem reps in Smash as Swordsman does not represent the series well. Fire Emblem has a wealth of weapons and units and including only Lords with Swords paints a bad picture of the series. I would take any type of unit over a Swordsman unit, honestly. A mage, an archer, a dancer, an axe knight, a soldier, etc. You get the point.
 

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And it's not that Chrom can't be unique, it's that having all the Fire Emblem reps in Smash as Swordsman does not represent the series well. Fire Emblem has a wealth of weapons and units and including only Lords with Swords paints a bad picture of the series. I would take any type of unit over a Swordsman unit, honestly. A mage, an archer, a dancer, an axe knight, a soldier, etc. You get the point.
Yes, this reasoning I can definitely get. (And actually agree with.)
 

ToothiestAura

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Yes, this reasoning I can definitely get. (And actually agree with.)
People who simply dismiss swordsman because they are swordsman have a point too, they just tend to be less than eloquent when expressing said opinion. It is probably for a similar reason to the one I just mentioned; there are plenty of swordsman in Smash already and many of them have very similar moves (at least visually). So not wanting another swordsman with no unique abilities is sort of redundant in their eyes. I can understand that. I would much prefer someone like Isaac, who can control earth and plants in addition to his swordplay, over someone like Chrom, who has no powers other than a sword. (Chrom does have some fire abilities with his sword, but I'm not sure if he actually controls them directly. Plus Ike has that already.)
 
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Scoliosis Jones

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My only response to the "Doesn't represent Fire Emblem well" argument, is that a large quantity of Fire Emblem Lords/main characters use swords/have blue hair.

Lords that use swords:
Marth
Ike
Roy
Chrom
Sigurd
Alm
Lyn
Eliwood
Leif
Seliph
Eirika
Lucina

Lords with other weapons:
Hector (axe)
Ephraim (lance)

Lords with Blue hair:
Marth
Ike
Chrom
Hector
Ephraim (tealish coloring)
Sigurd
Eirika
Seliph
Lucina

Basically, having another lord with a sword and blue hair would not improperly represent the lords and main characters of the series. It's unlikely that we're going to get anybody not from Awakening, and it this point it's probably going to be Chrom.

It's not so much Smash Bros that needs to fix the situation, but Intelligent Systems that needs to have a brand new lord with a brand new story, and a completely different weapon. An axe. A bow and arrow. Something that makes THEIR characters different.
 

Robert of Normandy

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Lords with other weapons:
Hector (axe)
Ephraim (lance)
Unless you meant to exclude Mages, I think you forgot some people.
It's not so much Smash Bros that needs to fix the situation, but Intelligent Systems that needs to have a brand new lord with a brand new story, and a completely different weapon. An axe. A bow and arrow. Something that makes THEIR characters different.
I agree 1000%. Let's have a break from the standard rapier wielding Lords and get some freaking variety in our FE leads.

Or they could just buy the rights to TRS and put Holmes in Smash.
 

Opossum

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I always wanted a strictly bow-based lord, simply for having to be more tactical in game. And I mean bow as the primary weapon.

But alas, that's more of IS's problem.

Fun fact: certain promotions allow Chrom to gain a bow.
 

Morian

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A bow lord is going to be the most useless and hated lord. Heck, archers in general are bad, only Shinon is the exception. Try to change Chrom to an archer, is very hard to make him progress without grinding.

The archer class needs 2-3 range to start, with any bow, and more useful stats.
 
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