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Meta "And Then Suddenly..." [1.1.5] Patch Discussion

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MarioMeteor

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I think she's better than you give her credit for.
I think you're giving her too much credit. Whether or not she's bad without Luma is up for debate, but it's undeniable that she's worse than a good deal of the cast. Really, that's my only problem with the character. It's not Rosalina and Luma, it's Luma With Slight Assistance From Rosalina.
I've seen her Usmash kill mid-weights ~100% without Luma, and her disjoints are quite safe in most situations.
That's really not all that impressive. A lot of people have up smashes that KO at 100.


In any case, I have faith that if they do make changes, they'll be fair about it. The team did a pretty good job figuring out what made characters overwhelming and adjusting accordingly thus far.
Oh, without a doubt. I just don't see them nerfing Rosalina. After the Nerf Hammer crushed her senseless in 1.04, they seem almost scared to nerf her any farther. When they do nerf her, they always give her something in return, and let's be honest, Rosalina wasn't nearly as in need of a nerf as Sheik and Samus were.
 

S_B

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That's really not all that impressive. A lot of people have up smashes that KO at 100.
Yes, but not in a situation where the character is supposed to be at a disadvantage. I feel like a Lumaless Rosa should REALLY struggle to kill unless it's a gimp or Uair.

Oh, without a doubt. I just don't see them nerfing Rosalina. After the Nerf Hammer crushed her senseless in 1.04, they seem almost scared to nerf her any farther. When they do nerf her, they always give her something in return, and let's be honest, Rosalina wasn't nearly as in need of a nerf as Sheik and Samus were.
Again, we'll see. I'm just pointing out that she's on Japan's S-tier and balances likely have more to do with what Japan thinks than what the rest of the world thinks.

But no, I don't think she was anywhere as strong as Sheik and ZSS, for sure. Rosa always at least had counterplay which was to kill Luma first. For most characters, Sheik and ZSS had nothing in the way of counterplay to speak of.
 

blackghost

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If we ever do get a 1.1.6, something I'd like to see happen to Bayo is for her to actually go into helpless/freefall once both of her Up B's are used. That one change alone would fix pretty much all of her BS.
bayonetta is fine. tshe has a high cieling and low floor. only elite bay(all like 3 of them) are getting results.
and giving her a free fall animation isnt going to happen. thats a lot of work for something they didnt want to do to begin with. its a property from her games: shes never helpless she can always do another action.
 

NonJohns

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Does anyone know the exact details on Shulk?
I'm pretty sure that all his aerials have decreased ending lag, but I only have weak proof for up air.
I used to have a really hard time getting the first hit to true combo into up tilt, but now I have it down perfectly in training mode.
I don't think it's placebo at all.
 

C0rvus

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bayonetta is fine. tshe has a high cieling and low floor. only elite bay(all like 3 of them) are getting results.
and giving her a free fall animation isnt going to happen. thats a lot of work for something they didnt want to do to begin with. its a property from her games: shes never helpless she can always do another action.
Just wanted to say that skill floor and ceiling have nothing to do with balance.
 

S_B

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Does anyone know the exact details on Shulk?
I'm pretty sure that all his aerials have decreased ending lag, but I only have weak proof for up air.
I used to have a really hard time getting the first hit to true combo into up tilt, but now I have it down perfectly in training mode.
I don't think it's placebo at all.
I don't believe there were any changes reported for Shulk's files.

Just wanted to say that skill floor and ceiling have nothing to do with balance.
Agreed, and this ultimately needs to be the case because Nintendo doesn't want to sponsor international tournaments only for there to be 2-3 characters who could ever realistically win them.

I used to question whether or not they cared, but now that they're shipping balance patches AFTER the content has stopped and there won't be any more money to make from it, it would appear that they care about the comp scene after all (signs before POINTED to "yes", but this absolutely cinches it).
 

Vipermoon

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Meh. If they truly cared for the competitive scene rather than low-mid level/FG then Marth would get autocancel windows instead of more kill moves.

I also want to mention that A LOT of the jank in this game would disappear if they were to tone down rage (which is what I wish for every patch; like more important than anything).
 

Aninymouse

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If this thread has officially devolved into competitive discussion and whining, you may as well lock it.

Great job, community. I'm not being sarcastic. 1.1.5 was (presumably) fully documented in record time, compared to 1.1.3 and 1.1.4.
 
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S_B

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If this thread has officially devolved into competitive discussion and whining, you may as well lock it.
Yeah, I think we're pretty much done at this point.

I've not much else to say in the way of what this patch could mean for future patches and whatnot.

Great job, community. I'm not being sarcastic. 1.1.5 was (presumably) fully documented in record time, compared to 1.1.3 and 1.1.4.
Yeah, I'm glad we have so many awesome people on the job. :)
 

Thebluehero

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I'm frustrated that they increased the knockback of Robin's second hit of jab. I don't know if it's just me, but it makes his rapid jab almost unusable because it pops anyone other than fast fallers too high to even finish his Elwind rapid jab.
 
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Lavani

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I also want to mention that A LOT of the jank in this game would disappear if they were to tone down rage (which is what I wish for every patch; like more important than anything).
This, this, this. Rage makes jank out of moves that otherwise work as intended.

A perfect example was mentioned last page:

The only thing about Rosalina I feel needs to be changed is Luma's absurd base knockback values that allow it to score those silly low percent kills under rage.

Lower those and just give it more knockback growth to compensate.
This would actually be counter to the move's design. Consider that Luma is a character that operates in a duo; her angle and knockback values on uair are very deliberate.


(mind the model swaps, I wasn't planning on having to showcase anything with Rosalina today)

It's not a move designed to kill, it's a move designed to get the opponent to Rosa's uair, regardless of whether or not she's tethered. High base low growth let it do this, low base high growth does not.

When rage factors in, it loses this function (barring situational circumstance) and turns from a setup move into a jank kill move near the blast zone. The move won't ever be touched in patches because it'd destroy its function, but if rage were nerfed or altogether removed it'd fix the complaints surrounding it.
 

TheSpnBrm

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I'm frustrated that they increased the knockback of Robin's second hit of jab. I don't know if it's just me, but it makes his rapid jab almost unusable because it pops anyone other than fast fallers too high to even finish his Elwind rapid jab.
Yeah it's mostly after down throw that this has been happening to me which kinda sucks.
 

Thebluehero

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Yeah it's mostly after down throw that this has been happening to me which kinda sucks.
They could have done a lot more with Robin this patch, it's too bad they gave him a very situational buff that acts as a debuff anywhere else.
 

S_B

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This, this, this. Rage makes jank out of moves that otherwise work as intended.
I really can't fault the logic behind this.

I have mixed feelings on rage. I see it as rewarding people for securing kills sooner rather than later, even perhaps going so far as to encourage people to wait for a clear kill confirm to happen instead of blindly throwing out all the damage they can.

But it also turns consistent things inconsistent and, as was mentioned, makes some moves quite janky.
 

White_Pointer

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bayonetta is fine. tshe has a high cieling and low floor. only elite bay(all like 3 of them) are getting results.
I really don't think a character that can combo KO off the top after landing a hit between 0-40% is "fine", even if you can technically DI it (the fact even the top level pros are stil dying to it suggests that it's not easy to DI and in some cases is just bluntly inescapable). You know what other characters could do something like that? Meta Knight and ZSS. Know what happened to them? The combo got nerfed. Same thing should happen here if Nintendo are going to stay consistent.

and giving her a free fall animation isnt going to happen. thats a lot of work for something they didnt want to do to begin with. its a property from her games: shes never helpless she can always do another action.
Canon is never a good reason for balance. If we're going to go for canon, then Samus' up b should be completely invincible and kill anything except the strongest opponents instantly. But it doesn't, because of balance.
 
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GreatGonzales

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Something I noticed today while playing Ness - has the close-quarters "push" effect been increased for his down-b? Could just be my imagination.
 
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JamietheAuraUser

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I really can't fault the logic behind this.

I have mixed feelings on rage. I see it as rewarding people for securing kills sooner rather than later, even perhaps going so far as to encourage people to wait for a clear kill confirm to happen instead of blindly throwing out all the damage they can.

But it also turns consistent things inconsistent and, as was mentioned, makes some moves quite janky.
Personally, I think Rage could be fixed simply by changing where in the knockback calculation it factors in. If Rage's multiplier was after the knockback growth calculation and before base knockback is added, I think it would be a lot more well-balanced.
 

Vipermoon

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Personally, I think Rage could be fixed simply by changing where in the knockback calculation it factors in. If Rage's multiplier was after the knockback growth calculation and before base knockback is added, I think it would be a lot more well-balanced.
It would also become inconsistent vs if you simply cut rage in half, then it's the same old consistent knockback multiplier everyone is used to

Edit: and I'd be fine if say rage ended at 200 instead of 150, so it wouldn't be completely 1/2 as weak. It sucks when you're well over 150 and no longer being rewarded
 
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Megamang

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^This. A simple modifier, like was done with SDI, would solve many problems. It could make linking moves link better by making the linking hits not have rage, which would also make them less likely to fire you off into the blast zone. A few moves that hit near the blast zone could have their rage turned off as well. Then, everything would be fine. Maybe a 1.5 or even 2x multiplier on moves they intend to have more rage dependent (Bowser's ftilt? He seems so angry ;_; )

Otherwise, I have come to like rage. It makes me feel like I have a reason to value my stocks where I have lived longer. It also provides variables to make combo games different, and often it helps you hold a lead down/close a game (like if you take mario to 150, he can't BnB your next stock as efficiently, so you get more chances. Also, with MUs where each person has a kill throw, the first kill throw landed will have a nice advantage to at least not get grabbed while the opponent is invincible and death-thrown, so you get to try for some EC.

But you tend to forget all that when a luma uair kills you at 20% heh.
 

HimaBook

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I like to see game mechanics and system ,and from this side,rage is very interesting.But as a player, I don't like.

BTW, I checked sheik's close-range needle, which have higher damage(close range:1.9 long range:1.2 damage).(If this is redundant research ,though I think not, sorry about that).As a result, close-range needle is not changed in this patch.Following are detail.

1)Distance of close-range needle

In both ver. , distance of close-range needle is as this fig (fig is 1.1.4).

2)Active frame of close-range needle
When sheik throw 1 needle during charging, close-range needle is active from 4F to 7F in both ver.. In other words,if needle hit 8F or later, it is long-range needle and have lower damage.​
 

Shiny Umbreon

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bayonetta is fine. tshe has a high cieling and low floor. only elite bay(all like 3 of them) are getting results.
and giving her a free fall animation isnt going to happen. thats a lot of work for something they didnt want to do to begin with. its a property from her games: shes never helpless she can always do another action.
She already has a freefall animation because she can jump into Pac-Man's red trampoline.
 

Yikarur

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By the way, it's not "Rage [that] makes jank out of moves that otherwise work as intended."
It's the lack of oldschool DI. No DI = You can no longer lengthen your flying path = High Base Knockback is crucial.
Additionally the problem is that damage is such a big part of the knockback formular. That means Multi Hitmoves that are intended to be a killmove (including luma) have larger base knockback to compensate for the low% the hit does, which gets insanely boosted by rage.
You can't just blame it on rage. There are a lot of "wrong" things working together to make things as they are.
 

Eugene Wang

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I have a cleaner solution for the rage problem: Rage should affect only knockback scaling (and not base knockback), so moves that don't have lots of knockback growth (such as intermediate multihits) don't suddenly have characters popping out in rage, while kill moves still have the desired knockback increase.
 
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Tizio Random

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I have a cleaner solution for the rage problem: Rage should affect only knockback scaling (and not base knockback), so moves that don't have lots of knockback growth (such as intermediate multihits) don't suddenly have characters popping out in rage, while kill moves still have the desired knockback increase.
Or maybe rage could just affect smash attacks. Sakurai said he would like to see more smash attacks, if they were the only buffed options with rage I could see players using them more to close a stock.
 

C0rvus

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Rage isn't a bad mechanic, I'm not sure why you all want it nerfed or removed. It makes you pay more attention to the percent you and your opponent are at, and combo accordingly. At times it prevents the same bread and butters from working over and over or it opens up new combo opportunities. It also adds pressure to close out the stock, and the hope of a comeback or dominating lead for those in rage. Rage helps heavyweights the most, and Smash is rarely kind to the likes of Bowser and Charizard.
 

double_axle

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bayonetta is fine. tshe has a high cieling and low floor. only elite bay(all like 3 of them) are getting results.
and giving her a free fall animation isnt going to happen. thats a lot of work for something they didnt want to do to begin with. its a property from her games: shes never helpless she can always do another action.
Here we have the rabid fanboy, one of the many types of smashers, though this is likely one of the youngest types, also the most annoying, and the hardest to make them think logically, you can often notice them by their terrible spelling, lack of grammar, and just nonsensical statements. Every character in the game has a freefall animation, and it isn't hard to code a character to go into freefall after doing something, by this point in the game's life, it would be as simple as a copy-paste, now please, take your fanboying someplace else.

Also I still don't see anything on the patch note % for Shulk or Robin. *Still praying for Shulk and Robin buffs that will never happen.*
 

C0rvus

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Bayonetta is designed to never go into freefall after her moves. Deal with it. Being a baby about it changes nothing.
 

double_axle

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Bayonetta is designed to never go into freefall after her moves. Deal with it. Being a baby about it changes nothing.
I have no opinion on Bayo and how she works, never played her, and never want to play her, I just felt like turning that guy's post into a joke, what else do you do on the internet other than pick on people who don't know what they are talking about?
 

LRodC

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So is it just assumed at this point that characters with nothing next to their name have either no known changes or non-relevant (mostly visual or animation based) changes?
 

BOB R.O.B.

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Confirmation on all the characters would be nice. I'm going assume with Lrod that the characters that have nothing written are assumed to not have changed.
 

double_axle

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So is it just assumed at this point that characters with nothing next to their name have either no known changes or non-relevant (mostly visual or animation based) changes?
Nothing official till it says "No changes." next to the character name/portrait.
 

LRodC

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Nothing official till it says "No changes." next to the character name/portrait.
Usually they put "no changes" when the difference checker doesn't spot anything new. That's why characters like Jiggs and Dedede were ruled out immediately along with the Star Fox characters and Ike. If there's nothing there in the OP, we can either assume that the difference checker spotted some unknown (and possibly irrelevant) change, or it's possibly something undiscovered.
 

Eureka

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So I've been told by a few people that the endlag on Samus's fair was increased because they can't do fair to fair anymore. I told them it's probably placebo since something like that would've been found in the data for fair, but considering it did get changed I figured I'd check anyway. Any changes on her fair besides the ones that are currently listed?
 

JamietheAuraUser

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So I've been told by a few people that the endlag on Samus's fair was increased because they can't do fair to fair anymore. I told them it's probably placebo since something like that would've been found in the data for fair, but considering it did get changed I figured I'd check anyway. Any changes on her fair besides the ones that are currently listed?
Might the cause potentially be Samus's increased fall speed making them fall too far to continue the combo?
 

Vipermoon

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So I've been told by a few people that the endlag on Samus's fair was increased because they can't do fair to fair anymore. I told them it's probably placebo since something like that would've been found in the data for fair, but considering it did get changed I figured I'd check anyway. Any changes on her fair besides the ones that are currently listed?
You're right that it would be in the data so end of story there
 

IsmaR

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I have no opinion on Bayo and how she works, never played her, and never want to play her, I just felt like turning that guy's post into a joke, what else do you do on the internet other than pick on people who don't know what they are talking about?
This section is more strictly/heavily moderated, if you didn't bother reading the sticky'd thread. This is a friendly warning to not to make an ass out of yourself here.~

On top of that, bringing up all of this character specific/not actual patch discussion is off topic here, so drop it anyway. That goes for everyone.
 

jahkzheng

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Might the cause potentially be Samus's increased fall speed making them fall too far to continue the combo?
The increased air speed should compensate for that particular change. I mean, I've still manged to chain fairs myself, though I've not spent a bunch of time researching how things may be different. There's that chance that he meant it doesn't chain at certain percents anymore? It's definitely a possibility. Even if the changes to air speed and gravity/fall speed were made to be relatively balanced, and they seem to have been, at a certain point gravity would affect Samus' vertical reach... if I'm remembering how gravity works correctly. Thing is, when chaining fair you're mostly chasing horizontally and a balanced change should still allow the chain at many of the same percents. But seeing as fair's knockback doesn't exactly follow the line of your pursuit, then I can see it eventually becoming unchainable sooner I guess, but only a little and due to lack of vertical reach if anything.

I'm just hesitant to believe the increased fall speed/gravity is entirely to blame necessarily for this fair difficulty, especially with her increased air speed. A balanced change of airspeed and fall speed/gravity should project Samus on the same angles as before when jumping forward and fairing. Even if they weren't changed in a perfectly balanced manner, the size of fair's hitboxes should compensate to allow them to still chain at a good chunk of percents like before. Now, if her fall speed/gravity was increased much more than her air speed, then you could expect her to jump at a more vertical angle and perhaps not reach her opponent due to lack of horizontal and vertical reach. But the changes to Samus here seem to desire a balance with the old numbers. Basically make Samus move on all the same angles as before but faster all around.

...

There is another possibility though...

Looking at her change log, I think the fourth hit of fair is her last, but I'm not certain of that. Assuming it is though, then there appears to be an angle change and a modified windbox knockback value on the first hitbox of her 2-4 hits. Not sure where the first hitbox is on her move, but I guess if your hit with that first hitbox on the fourth hit of fair... then you can expect things to look a little different.

My guess is that the first hitbox of all the hits of fair is the one closest to her body and that the changes to it are meant to make the move hit into itself better maybe? The windbox value makes sense in that regard at least. Trouble is, people mostly hit with the hitbox further away from Samus with the final hit of fair I think, so if that hitbox hasn't been changed then this may just be something else or placebo. Hard to say without knowing where all these hitboxes lie on the hits of this move and what for sure people are hitting with. But I don't see any mention of changes to the other hitboxes of the later hits of fair. Only changes to the first hit's hitboxes. That new third hitbox doesn't seem to be confirmed as something that even exists in the later hits of fair either. Regardless, if you manage to hit with the first hitbox of the fourth hit last, then you can expect a different behaviour.

A look at the diff page might clear this all up, though I wouldn't know much about interpreting it. Or even if someone just knew a lot more about what hitboxes are where and when in the move to begin with and could explain it, then we could clear this up. That poster that provided the Sheik fair and Zamus nair gifs could shed some light as well.

Oh, and sorry about kinda textwalling there. I tend to get carried away as I think my way through a post, heh.
 
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Sinister Slush

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I'll ask this for the first time, although some people have already asked this already.

Was Yoshi Dthrow jumpsquat etc. changed in someway this patch or a previous patch we possibly missed to somehow make Dthrow Uair more consistent apparently this patch all of a sudden to some.
A major placebo is still floating around in the Yoshi community and while I don't really believe it, the misconception is spreading everywhere to the point commentators are bringing it up during Yoshi sets as they Dthrow and never go for the Uair cause the opponent already jumped away or too far to do it so they don't attempt lol

Don't think a yes/no answer can calm the storm either.
 

Vipermoon

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I'll ask this for the first time, although some people have already asked this already.

Was Yoshi Dthrow jumpsquat etc. changed in someway this patch or a previous patch we possibly missed to somehow make Dthrow Uair more consistent apparently this patch all of a sudden to some.
A major placebo is still floating around in the Yoshi community and while I don't really believe it, the misconception is spreading everywhere to the point commentators are bringing it up during Yoshi sets as they Dthrow and never go for the Uair cause the opponent already jumped away or too far to do it so they don't attempt lol

Don't think a yes/no answer can calm the storm either.
While all of the data leads to a "no" I will say that Dthrow Uair killed me the other day at maybe 130 while I was spamming jump. I never jumped. I probably could have air dodged due to hitstun properties.

At low percent it seems to not work just as much as before. It could be that I'm just not knowledgeable enough to know that Yoshi's Dthrow is was always good at high percents.
 
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