SheerMadness
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2005
- Messages
- 4,781
Lol no you cant. Its probably far better physics for competitive play then regular brawl is.
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An interesting discovery about High Gravity mode
- Thread starter SGX
- Start date
Flaminglink
Smash Journeyman
hell no lol id rather play the main game a game mode
kamekasu
Smash Ace
Who are you to decide what better physics are? The point of competitive play is to play at the best possible level with the circumstances provided. Not to change the physics of the game until you think it's better suited to a certain style. You shouldn't be expecting a style of play for Brawl.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIYn3TtRr_w
And yet somehow I don't feel satisfied about brawl's edgeguarding.
Nicktendo
Smash Ace
This looks like it makes kills off the top impossible
Gea
Smash Master
You're taking something from the end of Melee for something at the start of Brawl?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIYn3TtRr_w
And yet somehow I don't feel satisfied about brawl's edgeguarding.
Wow.
Let me restate. Find a vid from 2002 with epic edgeguarding that shows Melee's edgeguarding game is better than Brawl's current one. Go on. Even matches with players like Azen really don't have solid edgeguarding yet (2002).
Come back in 6 years and make this topic?
Good grief I am HAPPY that these kind of "lol im gonna combo you from 0 till death and there aint a thing you can do about it lol because the character I play is so imba olol" things are GONE...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIYn3TtRr_w
And yet somehow I don't feel satisfied about brawl's edgeguarding.
Yeah, go ahead, flame me.....
Also I am gonna enjoy not seeing characters spazzing over the screen like morons.
I mean really, let a noob watch a Tekken pro match and he'll go: "Wow, awesome match!:D"
Let a smash noob watch a pro Melee match and he'll go: WTF just happened? :S"
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
^^That's a combo video. It's not supposed to show the other guy winning. Real pro matches go back and forth, and are extremely entertaining to watch. That kind of gameplay is exactly why competative players enjoyed melee.
BTW, would you prefer no combos at all, because so far that's what we have.
BTW, would you prefer no combos at all, because so far that's what we have.
Adi
Smash Lord
I'd say it's too extreme to say there are "no combos" considering the metagame has not developed fully but simply by the mechanics and physics that have been shown so far there will probably be less extreme combos as was possible in Melee.
Gea
Smash Master
I'd say so far no real valid points have been made. You're trading off making people's recoveries worse horizontally (since they fall faster) for making vert kills obsolete when:
1. There are signs of edgeguarding already, invalidating your point. (You've also ignored the 2002 point, thank you very much)
2. You have no idea about possible combos, as once again, look at 2002, thank you very much.
3. Vert kills are an important part of this game's structure and balance.
1. There are signs of edgeguarding already, invalidating your point. (You've also ignored the 2002 point, thank you very much)
2. You have no idea about possible combos, as once again, look at 2002, thank you very much.
3. Vert kills are an important part of this game's structure and balance.
errrr... does anyone else see the problem with using that video as an example of edgeguarding?
If not...
Snake wasn't autosweetspotting the edge.
and...
Gimpy was also obviously way better than the Snake player.
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
Okay, here are the reasons, so far, that I've seen for Heavy Brawl:
1. It makes combos possible:
Combos are already available in Brawl, if you'd just take the time to try it yourself or just look around the forums for a few minutes. Evidence of comboing is all over the place!
2. It makes combos easier!
Making combos easier removes depth. Removing depth removes elements of competitiveness. Also, combos are only easier because it allows you to use playing styles you picked up in Melee. It's time to grow up and try something new.
3. It'll make certain characters better!
It'll also make a bunch of characters much much worse. The lack of l-canceling will make it a shield-grabbing fest at the expense of heavy and medium characters while the lack of vertical movement will make it nearly impossible for certain characters to come back easily.
4. Okay, but isn't the point of competitiveness supposed to be about making combos all day long?
No, that couldn't be further from the truth. What makes a fighting game competitive is the depth of the game, which almost always winds down to the manipulation of advanced techniques, understanding of a characters, and ability to play effective mindgames.
Look at games like MvC2. You can do combos out of the wazoo, but the game lacks such little depth because characters have little to work with. Compare that to Third Strike, where characters that can combo like crazy, like Ibuki, fare rather poorly whereas hard-striking characters like Ryu and Urien are top-tier because of their ability to confuse and manipulate the opponent with mindgames. Same thing with the DoA series: Jann Lee is a top-tier character even though he's a strike character and not a comboing fiend. Ayane is top-tier and she can combo, but her greatest strength actually lies in her ability to psych out the opponent with Tiger knees. Again, look at a game like the SoulCalibur series: Sophitia and Cassandra's strengths lie not in their comboing abilities but their crouch dashes that allow the opportunity to open the opponent to an ***-whooping. It's not all about combos, it's about how you USE those combos.
5. Okay okay, but why don't we just give it a chance?
I'm willing to give it a chance, but not as the competitive standard for Brawl. The problem with doing that would be the inability to determine where you'd draw the line. Oh, so Heavy Brawl is okay? Why not then modify the damage ratios like crazy? Hell, why not make everyone Metal and give them Spicy Curry breath, that allows for awesome combos!
What I'm trying to point out here is that you need to have a standard that's easy to agree upon, and what standard is easier to agree on than the standard Brawl itself? Basically EVERYONE will have played it, so it won't be a matter of being able to manipulate the game in a better way that suits certain people better. At the same time, the game was designed with regular Brawl in mind and a lot of moves seem to be built for it, so it only makes sense to stick to the standard Brawl as the competitive standard than the Heavy Brawl simply because there's a lot more things to be discovered.
But it looks so much cooler!
In my opinion, Brawl looks pretty **** cool right now. It's not as fast as Melee was at its competitive prime, sure, but then again early Melee videos weren't very fast either. Give it some time.
1. It makes combos possible:
Combos are already available in Brawl, if you'd just take the time to try it yourself or just look around the forums for a few minutes. Evidence of comboing is all over the place!
2. It makes combos easier!
Making combos easier removes depth. Removing depth removes elements of competitiveness. Also, combos are only easier because it allows you to use playing styles you picked up in Melee. It's time to grow up and try something new.
3. It'll make certain characters better!
It'll also make a bunch of characters much much worse. The lack of l-canceling will make it a shield-grabbing fest at the expense of heavy and medium characters while the lack of vertical movement will make it nearly impossible for certain characters to come back easily.
4. Okay, but isn't the point of competitiveness supposed to be about making combos all day long?
No, that couldn't be further from the truth. What makes a fighting game competitive is the depth of the game, which almost always winds down to the manipulation of advanced techniques, understanding of a characters, and ability to play effective mindgames.
Look at games like MvC2. You can do combos out of the wazoo, but the game lacks such little depth because characters have little to work with. Compare that to Third Strike, where characters that can combo like crazy, like Ibuki, fare rather poorly whereas hard-striking characters like Ryu and Urien are top-tier because of their ability to confuse and manipulate the opponent with mindgames. Same thing with the DoA series: Jann Lee is a top-tier character even though he's a strike character and not a comboing fiend. Ayane is top-tier and she can combo, but her greatest strength actually lies in her ability to psych out the opponent with Tiger knees. Again, look at a game like the SoulCalibur series: Sophitia and Cassandra's strengths lie not in their comboing abilities but their crouch dashes that allow the opportunity to open the opponent to an ***-whooping. It's not all about combos, it's about how you USE those combos.
5. Okay okay, but why don't we just give it a chance?
I'm willing to give it a chance, but not as the competitive standard for Brawl. The problem with doing that would be the inability to determine where you'd draw the line. Oh, so Heavy Brawl is okay? Why not then modify the damage ratios like crazy? Hell, why not make everyone Metal and give them Spicy Curry breath, that allows for awesome combos!
What I'm trying to point out here is that you need to have a standard that's easy to agree upon, and what standard is easier to agree on than the standard Brawl itself? Basically EVERYONE will have played it, so it won't be a matter of being able to manipulate the game in a better way that suits certain people better. At the same time, the game was designed with regular Brawl in mind and a lot of moves seem to be built for it, so it only makes sense to stick to the standard Brawl as the competitive standard than the Heavy Brawl simply because there's a lot more things to be discovered.
But it looks so much cooler!
In my opinion, Brawl looks pretty **** cool right now. It's not as fast as Melee was at its competitive prime, sure, but then again early Melee videos weren't very fast either. Give it some time.
1. you know nothing about competitive melee.
2. you apparently know nothing about 3rdstrike or MvC2 either.
3. wow, just stop.
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
Rose:
I actually know quite a bit about competitive Melee, although I can't say I like playing primarily competitively myself. I also know quite a bit about MvC2 and Third Strike, although I'm not competitive in either of those games. I do, however, know enough highly competitive Third Strike players to know what I'm talking about: Ryu's all about keeping pressure on the opponent, Akuma requires a high level of precision, aggression, and a really high level of understanding of what his moves can do, Ibuki can combo like a beast but can't inflict much useful damage ever since she her Raida got severely nerfed, Q is one of the most effective turtling/ground approach characters I have ever seen in Street Fighter games, etc.
Don't hate just because you don't agree with what I see.
I actually know quite a bit about competitive Melee, although I can't say I like playing primarily competitively myself. I also know quite a bit about MvC2 and Third Strike, although I'm not competitive in either of those games. I do, however, know enough highly competitive Third Strike players to know what I'm talking about: Ryu's all about keeping pressure on the opponent, Akuma requires a high level of precision, aggression, and a really high level of understanding of what his moves can do, Ibuki can combo like a beast but can't inflict much useful damage ever since she her Raida got severely nerfed, Q is one of the most effective turtling/ground approach characters I have ever seen in Street Fighter games, etc.
Don't hate just because you don't agree with what I see.
tutata
Smash Ace
All i want is a faster paced game.
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
Mosk^
It's as though you're wearing a Franklin badge, projectiles just bounce right off of you.
It's as though you're wearing a Franklin badge, projectiles just bounce right off of you.
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
cynar
Smash Apprentice
well said
I agree with you.
I did some more testing last night, and found some rather disappointing things.
Diddy, DK, Sonic, Bowser have almost ZERO recovery ability. Enough to make them almost unplayable.
Sonic's up B is almost as bad as a short hop.
So no, I don't think this can ever be a standard.
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
I feel like the "intermediate" gravity should've been the standard Sakurai was working with from the start...but meh....
A Link to the Snitch
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2007
- Messages
- 1,538
Buh?
Did I see the implication that edgeguarding is a good thing?
It's an annoying tactic that people overuse. At no point is an overused tactic's use being limited a bad thing.
Did I see the implication that edgeguarding is a good thing?
It's an annoying tactic that people overuse. At no point is an overused tactic's use being limited a bad thing.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
^^You mean you should let your opponent back on the stage when the entire point of the game is to knock them off???
A Link to the Snitch
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2007
- Messages
- 1,538
Edgeguarding is overused - basically the amateur advanced tactic, and every one I know does it to excess.
I never said I don't do it. But I don't just stand there and block the opponent at any possible moment.
Who the Hell complains about a tactic that amateurs use being decreased? Yeah, mean ol' Sakurai forcing those gamers to think more and use something besides blocking the opponent at the edge. What is happening is that people are upset because it's a Melee tactic, and they want Brawl to play exactly like Melee. Exactly.
I never said I don't do it. But I don't just stand there and block the opponent at any possible moment.
Who the Hell complains about a tactic that amateurs use being decreased? Yeah, mean ol' Sakurai forcing those gamers to think more and use something besides blocking the opponent at the edge. What is happening is that people are upset because it's a Melee tactic, and they want Brawl to play exactly like Melee. Exactly.
Zelda_Fan_
Smash Journeyman
If anything, pros use edgeguarding and amateurs stand by the ledge and charge their smashes in melee...Not everyone is good at killing vertically, so when you knock your opponent off and you have a chance to get a kill by edgeguarding, are you just going to sit there and let them get back on the stage?
It's not like every character is a sitting duck while recovering. Each character has options while recovering most of the time and you have to be skilled at recovering. Edgeguarding adds more depth to the game.
Edgeguarding isn't completely out in Brawl, edgeguarders will just need to edgeguard better because of the new upB ledge cancels and tether recoveries...
Blackshadow
Smash Ace
Does not compute.A Link To The Snitch said:
And also, you make yourself out to be one of those types that complain that edgeguarding is cheap and that we should fight with "honor".
Hopefully you can correct me on that.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
LoOshKiN
Smash Journeyman
Getting back on topic...I don't think High-Gravity mode should be used. I never played Brawl, but I think the default setting is the way to go in this case. No matter what the tournament standard becomes, some characters will benefit and others will suffer. We can't make everyone happy. That being said, leave the gravity the way it is, but we should continue to get rid of silly random and luck factors. Gravity is consistent, lets not change it because we want it to be more like melee. The competitive players should be for floatiness anyways I think. It has its pros and cons but at least it's consistent.
And top of all that I do believe the floatiness was increased to counter the lack of L-canceling, just as the new air dodge physics were created to prevent Wavedashing and Wavelanding as well as Self Destructs (but it's rare that anyone should air dodge of the edge unless they miss a tech or something, idk)
And top of all that I do believe the floatiness was increased to counter the lack of L-canceling, just as the new air dodge physics were created to prevent Wavedashing and Wavelanding as well as Self Destructs (but it's rare that anyone should air dodge of the edge unless they miss a tech or something, idk)
Ledger_Damayn
Smash Ace
Characters that rely on vertical KO's will be inevitably gimped, plus characters with no third jumps.
Characters with awful horizontal recovery might be screwed over as well.
Time will tell if all of that is worth the return of old-school edgeguarding and more side-killing power.
IMO, it's probably a better bet that a more efficient way to edgeguard will be devised for the normal game before that ever happens. And when people get used to diminishing effects of spammed attacked, and start spreading out their moves, KO's at lower percents might be more possible.
And, of course, as time passes, both character specific and general physics exploits should be discovered.
All of these things should naturally speed up the game outside of using a mode that's a double-edged blade.
Characters with awful horizontal recovery might be screwed over as well.
Time will tell if all of that is worth the return of old-school edgeguarding and more side-killing power.
IMO, it's probably a better bet that a more efficient way to edgeguard will be devised for the normal game before that ever happens. And when people get used to diminishing effects of spammed attacked, and start spreading out their moves, KO's at lower percents might be more possible.
And, of course, as time passes, both character specific and general physics exploits should be discovered.
All of these things should naturally speed up the game outside of using a mode that's a double-edged blade.
Zant3tsuken
Smash Journeyman
Your examples are terrible.
MvC2 is played competitively and is still played to this day. Enough said.
What you say about Third Strike is an absolute lie, Yun is top tier purely due to cheap super which COMBOS away half a players life. Chun-li is top tier due to silly priority. Makoto is high tier due to being able to being able to super COMBO off a command grab. Urien aegis is not mind games, it's about UNBLOCKABLE. Ryu is only mid tier.
DOA is not played competitively. Despite mainstream popularity, Evo don't care about it enough to put it in it's tournament, in a country where the game is most popular.
Sorry, I have no love for the idea of playing games in high grav, and don't necessarily believe that comboing adds depth to a game either. Still, some of the idiocy displayed in both sides of the arguement though make me sad to read Smashboards these days.
