An interesting discovery about High Gravity mode

[LavisFiend]

How do you know the game isn't more balanced in high gravity mode?

Because if it were, it would not be called high gravity mode, and would instead be the mode the characters would be balanced too.

How funny, that it is not the mode they were balanced too, but instead was thrown in as a handicap mode.

 

[yoshi_fan]

How do you know the game isn't more balanced in high gravity mode?

Because high-lag characters will suffer a lot, because they can't do the new L-cancel

That's the first reason it comes to mind... And i think experienced players will say you a lot more.

Edit: looking at the thread... it seems like the people who wants this mode are good tier mainers (there is people who don't agree with this and are good-tier mainers too, but most of the people who agree are)

 

[Dan-E]

No dude, that is normal TIME mode setting. It is a variable that exists within the balanced normal mode. Turning the time up or turning it off affects the TIME portion of timed melee. It means nothing because tournament play is carried out through stock mode. Stock, time, coin, whatever.... all exist as variables that work WITH the balanced default mode.

but you see, what you are arguing is completely idiotic....

because you are not FOR a variable.....

YOU ARE FOR A MODE THAT COMPLETELY ALTERS THE BALANCE OF THE OVERALL CHARACTERS. WHY can't you GRASP this?

Yes, I will continue to preach the gospel that is playing the game in the correct mode, because it is completely moronic to assume that just because someone sucks so bad that they can't make a combo in the default mode that everyone else can't, WHICH YOU ARE ASSUMING.

Just shut up Dan E. You are nonsense. Complete and utter nonsense.

You are actually repping a HANDICAP mode in order to gain an advantage.

So just shut your mouth.

Lol dude.

^what he said.

we don't know which mode is more competitive. did i ever say "OMG HIGH GRAV MODE FOR TOURNEYS!!!! NORMAL MODE SUCKS!!!"?

no i said let's look and see which one is better.

you're not even giving high gravity mode a chance.

when I get the game I guarantee you I will play hundreds if not thousands of matches in standard mode to try it out but if it's no fun and high grav mode is entertaining then I will try it out.

And for the record I'm not assuming anything. Just pointing out the current evidence. You're assuming that if someone can't pull out a combo in normal brawl that they must suck at the game rather than acknowledge the possibility that it might be a flaw in the design of the game engine.

Calm down. Stop the flaming. Stop telling us how to play. Thank you.


Edit - I will admit that complete game balance does not matter to me at all if the game turns out to be amazingly shallow. I would rather have competitive balance (like melee where there were only about 10 out of 25 tourney mainables) than 35 characters in a game where both the player and the character don't matter.

Double Edit - How am I gaining an advantage by repping (which I'm not) this so called "handicap" mode? I don't even have the game yet. Or a main. lol.

 

[Dokuro]

I really do hope that High Gravity mode doesn't become the standard. Do people here have trouble trying to adapt to something new?

 

[Toadster5]

Because if it were, it would not be called high gravity mode, and would instead be the mode the characters would be balanced too.

How funny, that it is not the mode they were balanced too, but instead was thrown in as a handicap mode.

Melee proved that, for 1v1 no items play, the developer's idea of a balanced roster isn't necessarily balanced at all. Just because they balanced the game around a certain mode doesn't mean they did a good job from a competitive aspect.

 

[Sm00th_Crim1nal]

Guys please just try them BOTH out. Eventually, or rather quickly we'll see which mode has more potential. And to people thinking that this game was balanced in the first place, please come back to earth (random tripping?).

But as said before Brawl does deserve a 6 month default grace period. However High Grav should be thuroughly tested simultaneosly.

 

[LavisFiend]

Lol dude.

^what he said.

we don't know which mode is more competitive. did i ever say "OMG HIGH GRAV MODE FOR TOURNEYS!!!! NORMAL MODE SUCKS!!!"?

no i said let's look and see which one is better.

you're not even giving high gravity mode a chance.

when I get the game I guarantee you I will play hundreds if not thousands of matches in standard mode to try it out but if it's no fun and high grav mode is entertaining then I will try it out.

And for the record I'm not assuming anything. Just pointing out the current evidence. You're assuming that if someone can't pull out a combo in normal brawl that they must suck at the game rather than acknowledge the possibility that it might be a flaw in the design of the game engine.

Calm down. Stop the flaming. Stop telling us how to play. Thank you.


Edit - I will admit that complete game balance does not matter to me at all if the game turns out to be amazingly shallow. I would rather have competitive balance (like melee where there were only about 10 out of 25 tourney mainables) than 35 characters in a game where both the player and the character don't matter.

What evidence? That the few who happen to gripe about the game's combos and whatnot suck to the point where they can't pull off a combo? I have seen plenty of videos of people pulling off tasty combos, combos which people like you are so quick to write off as a game design flaw, because you are scared of having no distinct advantage.

Sure, High Gravity Mode will be a GREAT mode...for a small handful of characters. Everyone else however gets screwed. That is how handicaps work. 85% of the roster will be deemed WORTHLESS simply because the balance that was there is now gone completely all because you want to do cheap little combos when they can hardly fight back.

I won't even bother with your edit portion because it is groundless.

@Toadster5: The difference is, you are for a mode that deliberately demolishes the balance just so some characters can have a more obvious advantage. You haven't played the standard game at all, so to assume that what the developers intended for character balance does not hold through is silly, as you haven't had hands-on time to say that with certainty.

@Sm00th Crim1nal: Then stay off the ground. The game was built around the concept of aerial combat. Hit em high and follow through....

THAT, or jump every now and then.

 

[Percon]

Curry mode helps with combos. I think we should play that way in tournaments.

But really, I'll just see how this turns out. MAYBE it's better... but I still think people are approaching this game with a melee mindset.

 

[Toadster5]

I wasn't making the assumption that the standard mode is less balanced than high gravity mode. I was saying we can't assume it's MORE balanced than high gravity mode at this point in time. Both modes need to be tested extensively. You continue to assume that high gravity mode will favor a handful of characters over the rest of the cast. How do you know standard mode doesn't contain an even smaller number of practical competitive characters?

 

[LavisFiend]

I wasn't making the assumption that the standard mode is less balanced than high gravity mode. I was saying we can't assume it's MORE balanced than high gravity mode at this point in time. Both modes need to be tested extensively. You continue to assume that high gravity mode will favor a handful of characters over the rest of the cast. How do you know standard mode doesn't contain an even smaller number of practical competitive characters?

Because the standard mode is where all the work went into. Obviously, the relationships between characters and balance would be stronger in that mode over a mode that alters the physics. Characters balanced in the standard mode will be drastically affected by the new changes in physics that comes with High Gravity Mode, because that floatiness aspect is completely snuffed. Characters who are heavy NEED this aspect to function against faster floatier characters in order to have a chance of victory.

Giving heavy characters lead boots makes them practically a sitting duck, whereas the natural floaty characters will just get a pinch on the arm and remain ultimately unaffected. Medium characters will get hurt in this as well.

 

[Frames]

Giving heavy characters lead boots makes them practically a sitting duck, whereas the natural floaty characters will just get a pinch on the arm and remain ultimately unaffected. Medium characters will get hurt in this as well.

I have to agree with you here, this might devastate certain characters, and make them worthless. It's hard to say for sure until it's been tried, but it could alienate a significant portion of the cast and make characters like Marth even better.

Also, this would be tough to push on the whole community. People would be upset if they went to a tourney and everything they were used to was different. Also making things faster won't reduce landing lag unless it we speed up the game. Plus training for online tournaments would be a problem since making things faster would increase latency issues during online play.

These are just opinions I've formed, but i'd really need to test it out.

 

[Starscream]

I seriously ****ing hope this does not become the standard...

 

[Dan-E]

What evidence? That the few who happen to gripe about the game's combos and whatnot suck to the point where they can't pull off a combo? I have seen plenty of videos of people pulling off tasty combos, combos which people like you are so quick to write off as a game design flaw, because you are scared of having no distinct advantage.

Sure, High Gravity Mode will be a GREAT mode...for a small handful of characters. Everyone else however gets screwed. That is how handicaps work. 85% of the roster will be deemed WORTHLESS simply because the balance that was there is now gone completely all because you want to do cheap little combos when they can hardly fight back.

I won't even bother with your edit portion because it is groundless.

@Toadster5: The difference is, you are for a mode that deliberately demolishes the balance just so some characters can have a more obvious advantage. You haven't played the standard game at all, so to assume that what the developers intended for character balance does not hold through is silly, as you haven't had hands-on time to say that with certainty.

@Sm00th Crim1nal: Then stay off the ground. The game was built around the concept of aerial combat. Hit em high and follow through....

THAT, or jump every now and then.

Seriously you're acting as if normal brawl has been proved as the most balanced form of play already when the game hasn't even been out for a week yet. Doesn't matter if the developers tried to balance that mode out. Developers have a habit of never correctly balancing a game the first time. It's left to us, the gamers, to do that for them.

Please point me to a video with a "tasty combo" (lol at the description). Videos I've seen have been incredibly lacking in comboage. Just one hit followed by scurrying around followed by another hit. Rinse and repeat. That's my evidence btw. I never called combos a game design flaw.

You don't know that 85% of the cast will be deemed as worthless. and if they are I suggest trying out high grav mode with bunny hoods on. lol.

and shouldn't I be scared of having no distinct advantage? I'm absolutely terrified that brawl will be a game where the person with almost no experience with the game can come in and within half an hour be competing with someone who's had the game for years.

Edit - How can you say you hope high grav doesn't become the standard without first trying it out?

 

[DRaGZ]

I feel like everyone in here is supporting a position that is only really good for them and not really for the community. It's basically "I like it this way because it feels good to me!" or "I want it this way because it feels right to me!" What I think we really should be talking about is how this is going to affect the Smash community as a whole.

Here's how I feel it'll break down:

If we keep normal Brawl as the standard, it will evolve, techniques will be discovered, a metagame will be created, and the only thing separating the competitive people (which are a stark minority mind you) and the casual gamers are a level of skill.

On the other hand, if we make Heavy Mode the standard, it will evolve separately of the way casuals are playing regular Brawl. In other words, you'll have TWO metagames. The thing separating casuals from competitives will then basically be playing a new game.

What I'm trying to point out here is that right now, with the standard mode, we're ALL trying a new game, thus we're all on an even footing. On the other hand, if we split off into Heavy and Non-Heavy, we'll be playing two completely different metagames and disunify the community as a whole.

Ever try getting into a match on an Asian server in Brood War nowadays? If you haven't played in a while, you'll get absolutely spanked because it's a metagame that's so highly evolved that you've not the slightest idea how to get yourself accustomed to it. The Heavy Brawl would be just like that, except that, to a casual, it would being unable to get into Brood War even though you've been playing it for seven years!

All I can see up ahead is isolation and harsh feelings. And don't pull that "melee had no items/ban stages" crap, because so many casuals ALREADY played like that anyway. I, for one, couldn't stand the items at first because it was all way too chaotic. Plus, items don't fundamentally change the way the game works, it just adds an element of randomness. Turning on Heavy Mode completely changes the way the game works and feels.

I really wish someone from the Smash Back Room would come in and settle this already. I just want some **** closure, Heavy Brawl or Regular Brawl.

 

[Anth0ny]

I actually really like it. I highly doubt that it will become the tournament standard, and I think it should stay that way. High gravity side events would be cool, though.

I'll definately be playing this mode frequently with friends. Probably not as much as normal mode, but still frequently.

Also, does anyone know if Marth's short hop nair actually hits your opponent in high gravity mode, or does it just go over their heads like in normal brawl?

 

[spindash]

Once again.

**** high gravity. That is all.

 

[SGX]

One major downside I've found so far (now that I've unlocked them)

High Grav REALLY screws Ganon, Snake, and Bowser. Ganon and Snake have absolutely atrocious landing lag on almost ALL their aerials. Bowser's Up B just doesn't take him far enough.

You know, if they got rid of l-canceling they could have at least not made some characters have awful laggy aerials

 

[mosk123]

sorry if its been asked.
but whats light gravity mode?
hows it different

-haven't seem anything about it-

 

[DRaGZ]

I'm all for making side-events for things such as this. Along those same lines, I'd also support Tiny and Stamina Brawl games, both of which have their own merits (has anyone noticed that there are gates in Hyrule Temple that looks they were MADE for tiny people to go inside? lol). That would make me very happy.

But I don't want it to be the tournament standard is the thing.

EDIT: In fact, now that I think of it...I would LOVE to have Stamina Brawl tournaments...but again, I don't want it to be the standard.

 

[Kirby M.D.]

Dear lord no, this is a bad idea. High Grav mode as a side dish is cool, but making it the golden standard just smacks of an inability to let go of Melee. I'm starting to feel like a broken record because it seems like all of my recent posts go like this: Calm down and get over yourselves. Play the game, learn the game, stop trying to force the Melee paradigm on a completely different game. Seriously now, if the changes are bothering people to the extent that there are at least 100 posts like this a day then we should just keep playing Melee. It seems that's all the loud and increasingly annoying majority on this board want to do anyway.

 

[Saunic]

That sounds ridiculous, just like it's been said, it would be totally useless to try and reproduce a "Melee atmosphere", since most of the techs are out, and all the work was focused on the original, unmodified game.

Brawl is a new game, with new techs and new physics, no one can pretend he's a good player just one week after the release, it'll take months, even years to discover and understand the game system.

BTW, in this mode, Dedede is almost completely unable to come back because of its weight.

 

[OoNoiRoO]

Please point me to a video with a "tasty combo" (lol at the description). Videos I've seen have been incredibly lacking in comboage. Just one hit followed by scurrying around followed by another hit. Rinse and repeat. That's my evidence btw. I never called combos a game design flaw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmIkv9S0nwc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ismX6iNNs_U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QdrdPYuKus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP865vEllvY

And jeez, a game doesn't have to be entirely about combos n' ****. Look at SF: 3rd strike, sure, has combos of course, but the game is way more about spacing, mix-ups, and reading your opponent.

And besides, as said many many times before, a lot of characters actually don't get much altitude(some actually gain negative altitude) on their second jumps, mainly ones with multiple jumps and people with low second jumps, making this form of play extremely unbalanced already. I tested this yesterday.

 

[Tonb3rry]

I fully support high gravity mode! And it should be used as a standard. It makes the game a lot more competitive. Like, comboes can be done more easily, and it's so much more like melee.
Just my opinion, though, but really, it should be used.

 

[DRaGZ]

Thank you OoNoiRoO. You keep mentioning Third Strike before I do, lol.

And Tonb3rry, it won't make the game competitive at all. In fact, it'll limit what can be accomplished in Brawl, which, overall gives the game less depth which ruins competitiveness.

 

[The Great Leon]

I think everyone should check out the ***very important*** thread before any further debate. Right now we're playing 3 stock normal mode because matches were taking too long. Little did ANYONE know that Brawl's floatier feel is due in part to a knockback decay system that we don't even understand yet. We should at least get a hold on simple game mechanics before we spark any serious arguments. Hell, we just figured out jumping backwards forwards. And tripping???
Brawl will never (well, its hardly likely) have Melee's speed without wavedashing and l-canceling. Its a new game with a new feel. Stop jumping at the chance to take your part in the casual/hardcore fight and chill. Let's all get the game first and let M2K figure out how it works for us. If 6 stock High Grav Bunny Ears is the best for competitive gaming, then I'm all for it. But be prepared for Brawl to be more spacing oriented (a la Street Fighter) than Melee was. Just please have an open mind.

tldr, stfu and lets test the game before we fight.

 

[Mike Hawk]

this and creat-a-stage should bring smash back.

 

[mosk123]

Anyone knw anything about 'light gravity mode'?

 

[DRaGZ]

I'd assume it would make people fall really slow?

 

[DRaGZ]

this and creat-a-stage should bring smash back.

Back from what? Have you been following up at all? Do you have any real understanding of what's being discussed here? I'd suggest reading up this thread and a bunch of other threads related to this topic before proclaiming that it's going to "bring back smash".

 

[PwnyRide]

this and creat-a-stage should bring smash back.

That or Final Destination.

 

[Chaosblade77]

I can't believe people are looking at this with such a shallow mindset...

When you get the game try this mode with a heavy character and do some aerials, or get a character like kirby and try to use his multiple jumps. Those types of characters are going to get effectively screwed over, just so some of the faster characters without multiple jumps can be more effective.

In other words it will be Marth, Fox, Falco, Sheik, and a few others new to Brawl and all others will be generally unplayable, whether it be due to issues with gravity and jumps or the fact any aerial they pull off will require a double jump to reduce lag...of course so many people want it to be like Melee, this mode does a good job of giving you a Melee rip off for those characters.

Just from watching that video you can see where there would be blatant problems, don't just take it at face value.

 

[F@lc0-san]

I'd assume it would make people fall really slow?

No, HIGH gravity means that the "earth" pulls you down more, so you fall faster.

 

[DRaGZ]

Oh. Okay. 10chars.

 

[mosk123]

No, HIGH gravity means that the "earth" pulls you down more, so you fall faster.

no light gravity mode?
so then all it is is slow falling? and then normal gameplay?

 

[Dan-E]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmIkv9S0nwc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ismX6iNNs_U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QdrdPYuKus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP865vEllvY

And jeez, a game doesn't have to be entirely about combos n' ****. Look at SF: 3rd strike, sure, has combos of course, but the game is way more about spacing, mix-ups, and reading your opponent.

And besides, as said many many times before, a lot of characters actually don't get much altitude(some actually gain negative altitude) on their second jumps, mainly ones with multiple jumps and people with low second jumps, making this form of play extremely unbalanced already. I tested this yesterday.

Specific times in those videos would be great... I watched the first few minutes of the first video and it looked pretty promising. Nothing like what was happening in that gif image you posted though. I cant really understand what's happening but I would love to see some more stuff like that. I can't tell if it's escapable or not.

I don't know anything about SF 3rd strike or the street fighter series so that comparison is lost on me.

How bout high grav plus bunny hoods?

Some videos in normal brawl with effective edge guarding would really set my mind at ease tbh. More than comboing.

 

[Gea]

Some videos in normal brawl with effective edge guarding would really set my mind at ease tbh. More than comboing.

It is just that edgeguarding is DIFFERENT. I don't have vids for this but I know all three are effective.

Falco's dair/Marth's dair and the like. Still make effective edgeguarders.
You can do things like grab Snake when he's off the stage for a gimp kill.
GW still has his off the stage aerial game to great success.

Hell, I just though of some more.

Peach can float off, Jiggs can still WOP (along with MANY multijump characters) and Rob can follow people to the blastline.

Honestly how many videos have you seen with good players period?

1. Not many Americans have the game.
2. People are still trying to play it exactly like Melee. Look at 2002 vids of Melee. Certainly less than effective combos and edgeguarding. Give it time.

 

[DRaGZ]

^ Dan-E

Bunny ears makes everyone run faster too. It makes characters really cumbersome to control.

 

[mosk123]

neone know in the special brawl how next to 'curry' (the fire breathing), theres something else?

translates to 'reflect'?
what des that do?

 

[Heavyarms2050]

sigh.. i'm willing to play in high gravity if more people are willing to play

 

[spindash]

Specific times in those videos would be great... I watched the first few minutes of the first video and it looked pretty promising. Nothing like what was happening in that gif image you posted though. I cant really understand what's happening but I would love to see some more stuff like that. I can't tell if it's escapable or not.

I don't know anything about SF 3rd strike or the street fighter series so that comparison is lost on me.

How bout high grav plus bunny hoods?

Some videos in normal brawl with effective edge guarding would really set my mind at ease tbh. More than comboing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wzwFYjPWrY

Gimpyfish (Mario) vs. Resident Waffle (Solid Snake)

And once again, Gimpyfish saves the day showing that edgeguarding is VERY possible. It's a great match. I can very well say that High Gravity has a 0% chance of becoming the staple in competitive gameplay.