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An interesting discovery about High Gravity mode

OoNoiRoO

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 16, 2006
Messages
371
Some characters barely gain any altitude on their secondary jumps, mainly the floaters.

Also, I hate how everyone is trying to make this like melee. This isn't melee. It's Brawl. So play Brawl, not Melee.

Things change. People are scared of change. But we all have to adapt.
 

Ced The Lad

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 14, 2006
Messages
100
Location
Fullerton, California
The problem I have with changing the gravity relies on the setting itself. It isn't default. Sure, it may ok for many of us if we decide to use this against each other in person. But what are you going to do about the average player on Wifi that doesn't think twice about this option? If he joins your game and the gravity is up, then that person will be brawl-shocked to say the least.
 

Swu

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
39
Some characters barely gain any altitude on their secondary jumps, mainly the floaters.

Also, I hate how everyone is trying to make this like melee. This isn't melee. It's Brawl. So play Brawl, not Melee.

Things change. People are scared of change. But we all have to adapt.
You don't really understand most people's concerns. Its not that we are complaing that Couterstrike suddenly became Unreal Tournament. Its that Brawl is so much slower paced, physic of the game is going in the wrong direction. I gave the Lambo and Tractor analogy. The controls shouldnt be slower. It still should be fast and tight. We dont as much about the adv tech but the current state of gameplay instead.

Depth not Breath.
 

Mario77

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
Messages
186
Hg Ftl

This would make certain characters gain an advantage, and other characters have a disadvantage. Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's recovery in High Gravity? Might as well give up from the start. I'm sure there are many reasons.

High Gravity = Lame.

Sure, it might make the game seem more intnense and allow for certain characters to combo other characters much easier, but that is ruining what balance this game has.

Definately not starting out with High Gravity, I say leave it at default setting and change later if it must be done. But it would still scew over alot of characters!

Sacraficing balance for combos and slightly faster pace is not worth it.

Ganondorf already can hardly make it back to the stage? I don't wana have to die sooner than I should just because some people want a faster paced game! And it seems faster characters would have even MORE of an advantage in High Gravity.
 

Proven

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
199
You don't really understand most people's concerns. Its not that we are complaing that Couterstrike suddenly became Unreal Tournament. Its that Brawl is so much slower paced, physic of the game is going in the wrong direction. I gave the Lambo and Tractor analogy. The controls shouldnt be slower. It still should be fast and tight. We dont as much about the adv tech but the current state of gameplay instead.

Depth not Breath.
This is your opinion. This is your lack of satisfaction with Brawl. This is your wanting the game to be what it's not. You want it to be faster paced. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. That's one thing that defined Melee. The slower pace is what will define Brawl. It's different. It's not Melee. It's not. It's not. It's not. This is your opinion pushing things too far.
 

Xarias

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 26, 2007
Messages
311
Location
Houston, Tx
Ugh.

Am I one of the only competitive players who DOESN'T want Brawl to be Melee? Come on guys, aren't you tired of Marth/Fox/Falco/Sheik? I'm so bored of the whole thing. Its old. I don't even want to play Melee anymore, I'm just so ready to switch to Brawl. Its new and exciting and original!

People need to adapt.
 

Lightning Ice

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
201
Location
California
This is your opinion. This is your lack of satisfaction with Brawl. This is your wanting the game to be what it's not. You want it to be faster paced. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. That's one thing that defined Melee. The slower pace is what will define Brawl. It's different. It's not Melee. It's not. It's not. It's not. This is your opinion pushing things too far.
Except it is faster paced. You just have to turn on the high gravity option. What makes playing with the default settings more "right" than playing with high gravity. The option is there for a reason. I don't care if being slow "defines Brawl" I care whether it is fun or not and if giving up the slow speed makes the game more fun I see no reason not to do so.
 

OoNoiRoO

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 16, 2006
Messages
371
ITT: We change the game to how we want it, not how it was made to be.
 

Mario77

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
Messages
186
Captain Falcon can barely jump as is! NO HIGH GRAVITY!

He can barely recover after being knocked off at 30%! ( In high gravity)
 

mezbomber

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 5, 2007
Messages
219
Location
Mankato
why not just have two schools of competitive play. One at default settings, and one with high gravity (and how about lightning mode, too? You want intense, right?) Different styles of gameplay will apply to each, and different characters will have their strenghts/weaknesses for both. I imagine people would play both or make the choice of one that is preferred. Two things could happen. 1.) both schools of play will thrive side-by-side. 2.) one will eventually fade away due to an overwhelming majority over the other.

it's like having multiple versions of competitve brawl. The real thing at hand here is that this game will give us a lot of choice. Play however you want to play. Just don't make a religion out of it where you feel the need to convert the non-believers.
 

Proven

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
199
Except it is faster paced. You just have to turn on the high gravity option. What makes playing with the default settings more "right" than playing with high gravity. The option is there for a reason. I don't care if being slow "defines Brawl" I care whether it is fun or not and if giving up the slow speed makes the game more fun I see no reason not to do so.
Changing the gravity is like changing the damage/knockback ratio, or using one of the Special Melee types like Lightning Fast Melee. Sure, it's in the game, but did we ever think about changing it? So Sakurai thought of some other cool little thing you can manipulate, like with the damage ratio thing. That doesn't mean it's meant to be changed for the basic gameplay.
 

OoNoiRoO

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 16, 2006
Messages
371
In any stupid case you want to argue, characters with multiple jumps get very little to no altitude(Charizard and DeDeDe more specifically). Same thing with some people's second jumps(peach, bowser). That already puts characters at a MAJOR disadvantage in which they're not supposed to be and probably unplayable against characters that can actually move in the air with this mode on.

There, happy? /thread
 

Lightning Ice

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
201
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California
Changing the gravity is like changing the damage/knockback ratio, or using one of the Special Melee types like Lightning Fast Melee. Sure, it's in the game, but did we ever think about changing it? So Sakurai thought of some other cool little thing you can manipulate, like with the damage ratio thing. That doesn't mean it's meant to be changed for the basic gameplay.

Fox's shine wasn't meant to be used as an edgeguard yet people still did it anyway. Samus' bombs weren't meant for her recovery, Sheik's needles weren't meant for canceling out a fully charged shot from Samus. Just because something wasn't meant to do something doesn't mean it shouldn't.
 

DRaGZ

Smash Champion
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Jan 5, 2008
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Lightning Ice, all those things you mentioned were designed that way:

Fox's Shine: The fact that it does damage at all means that it was meant to be used as an attack.

Bomb-jumping: This is supposed to reflect Samus's actual capabilities from Metroid games.

Needles: I don't see any rational for why this is not the case. Why shouldn't needles cancel out charged blasts?

I just don't want to isolate groups. This is like what happened with YGO: Konami of America decided to make its ban/restriction list different from Konami of Japan, so two different types of games arose. World tournaments became a mess, players from opposite camps became pissed at each other, and the game is now flailing, even after they decided to fix the incompatible lists dealie.

I don't want this to happen to Brawl. It would suck if Brawl got split up into two different camps, and I'd go with the regular Brawl because that's simply how the game is made.

What I'm afraid this is gonna do is make a bunch of people bandwagon onto the Heavy Brawl camp and not even give regular play the chance it deserves. Play it for a while ****it. A lot of you are still accustomed to Melee. Let's just pretend this is not even a sequel and just try it how it was meant to be played.

And don't try to compare it with SSB64, because the only "step" I see going towards SSB64 is the speed while EVERYTHING else is different. SSB64 had crazy crap like 0% to kill combos, insta-spikes, and incredibly easy L-Cancelling. Brawl doesn't.

Don't think of it in terms of "Brawl is missing this while (insert version of Smash here) has that". Just think of it in terms of "this is Brawl."
 

mezbomber

Smash Journeyman
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Apr 5, 2007
Messages
219
Location
Mankato
people are so pressed to prove their points here. I reiterate my statement for those who briefed over it...

this game gives us a lot of choice. High gravity is an interesting idea. Many people will like it. Many people will disagree. There's no point that needs to be proved here.
 

DRaGZ

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Messages
2,049
Location
San Diego, CA
Mezbomber, my fear is that this splitting of the competitive scene into two camps WILL cause damage to the competitive scene overall, and especially will hurt casual players' willingness to enter competitive play.
 

OoNoiRoO

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 16, 2006
Messages
371
In any stupid case you want to argue, characters with multiple jumps get very little to no altitude(Charizard and DeDeDe more specifically). Same thing with some people's second jumps(peach, bowser). That already puts characters at a MAJOR disadvantage in which they're not supposed to be and probably unplayable against characters that can actually move in the air with this mode on.

There, happy? /thread
This thread shouldn't even be up anymore.
 

Proven

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
199
Fox's shine wasn't meant to be used as an edgeguard yet people still did it anyway. Samus' bombs weren't meant for her recovery, Sheik's needles weren't meant for canceling out a fully charged shot from Samus. Just because something wasn't meant to do something doesn't mean it shouldn't.
Please, please don't respond with attack choices rather than game mechanic choices. Really, that's a whole different argument entirely.
 

Lightning Ice

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
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California
I'm not saying we shouldn't give normal Brawl a chance I just think that we should give high gravity Brawl a chance as well.
 

tutata

Smash Ace
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Jul 5, 2006
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519
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UC Santa cruz/redwood city BAY AREA!
Sounds awesome. It's good to know that there are potential options to undo any dumbing-down that Sakurai may or may have not done to Brawl. It'd be sweet if he actually included options intended for serious play. That'd give them a good chance of not imbalancing anything by switching the settings.

As for people pulling the generic "not Melee 2.0" and "these aren't default settings" cards:

Tournaments are going to use the most competitive settings, no matter what the default settings are. Any competitive organization of any seriousness is not going to purposely use dumbed-down setting for shallow reasons. Technical ones, yes, but not pointless ones. If there's any resemblence between Melee and Brawl competitive play, it's because those settings are competitive, not because people are trying to copy Melee.
best thing ive heard in a long time thanks you.
 

TheGoodCaptain

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
6
do you know whyBrawl doesnt seem competitive. Its cus its so much slower paced, chars are so floaty compared to melee its like watching Melee in slow motion. You do a neutral air and you spend half a second watching it happen and float to the ground even if you fast fall. I mean and like what other people have said, Brawl is so babied, give me a break auto sweet spotting.

If your releaseing a new and better game under the same series. You expect it to be somewhat similar. You can totally change the characters, the move sets, stages, options. Dont make the game SLOWER pace. Its like driving a Lambo and then having to inch away at with farming tractor.

Also I think the lack of L-canceling definately makes the game more unbalanced. You have so much time in brawl because of aerial lag and floatiness you have time to laugh and point at the noob and then run to him and grab him. It makes doing any aerial that has lag infeasible.

You see in melee L-canceled made characters like Ganandorf who had a laggy as balls down aerial and side aerial practical in the meta-game.

If anything lack of L-cancel hurts slow chars even more because there is nothing they can do about being slow.

P.S. Since everyone has given me crap about it, I actually do have the game. And this is my opinion based on playing it. Its not like im pulling things out of thin air or from videos
You know, I wouldn't judge the "competitiveness" of a game just on the speed of it's gameplay just yet. There are more than just ATs that separate competitive players and casuals. I would know; I actually can execute all of the major ATs, but am not competitive by any means. It looks like Brawl will be, for the time being, much more mindgame based than technical skill based.

So, lets just for a minute assume that there won't be any newer lag canceling techniques, which shouldn't be ruled out yet. This just forces people to outsmart their opponents in newer ways. Just because it's not as fast as Melee, doesn't mean that it won't be as competitive at all. In fact, a metagame that is more mindgames driven than AT driven could arguably be even more competitive.

What I think is happening is a knee-jerk reaction from people who spent a long time mastering Melee and are having a hard time grasping that Brawl is completely different. Thus, some people are insinuating that we should make Brawl as close to Melee as possible. I really hope that doesn't happen, because it in essence kills Brawl's competitive metagame in it's early infancy. And for what? A gimpy version of Melee.

My main point is we shouldn't try to adjust Brawl's game just to make it closer to what Melee was under the veil of making it more competitive. Let Brawl develop it's own identity, different from Melee but no less competitive. If someone just can't handle that, Melee is still here, and it's own competitive scene is far from dead.
 

Xarias

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 26, 2007
Messages
311
Location
Houston, Tx
people are so pressed to prove their points here. I reiterate my statement for those who briefed over it...

this game gives us a lot of choice. High gravity is an interesting idea. Many people will like it. Many people will disagree. There's no point that needs to be proved here.
Many people being like.... what... 20 people in a thread that's only been around for a few hours?

Guys.... Heavy Brawl will never become the standard. It just won't. Nothing will be standard except Standard.

Its been said time and time again, and I'm going to say it once more: If you want a game that plays like Melee, then play Melee. If you want a new game full of exciting, fresh possibilities, play Brawl.
 

K Balls

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
376
Location
Oakley,CA
high gravity mode interesting. I think that brawl should be played the way that it was made. I personally didn't like melee and if high gravity mode is like melee roots then for me it wouldn't be a good idea. I think brawl should be play competitively just playing it on normal.
 

Mario77

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
Messages
186
Fox's shine wasn't meant to be used as an edgeguard yet people still did it anyway. Samus' bombs weren't meant for her recovery, Sheik's needles weren't meant for canceling out a fully charged shot from Samus. Just because something wasn't meant to do something doesn't mean it shouldn't.
There was no option to turn any of those things you mentioned off. So it was part of the game no matter what mode you chose. The game was balanced according to default gravity, chaning that tampers with the balance of the game.

High gravity favors certain characters, and characters like Falcon get screwed over because they can hardly recover if they are blasted off too far, while Pit and Metaknight can recover no matter how much gravity there is.
 

Lightning Ice

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Sep 25, 2007
Messages
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California
Think about this though, maybe normal Brawl is incredibly deep and fun but high gravity brawl was the standard. We could miss a deep, fun and different way to play Brawl if we just cast aside a method of playing just because it isn't the default setting. Although this is all really in the worst case scenario where standard Brawl flops.
 

SenorPresidente

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
615
Location
Des Moines, IA
There is no right way to play brawl sakurai himself said it. He only cares that you buy his game and enjoy it. So if he doesn't care why should you all.
 

mezbomber

Smash Journeyman
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Apr 5, 2007
Messages
219
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Mankato
I guess I just don't see any grounding in the fear of splitting up the competitive scene. Melee was split between items and no-items. Eventually, no-items was more widely agreed upon. For the sake of the argument, there still exists people that prefer items to no-items...they learn different things about the game because they play differently. the no-items faction also made their contribution to our vast knowledge of melee. Exploration is the first step, and fear should never be an option.
 

DRaGZ

Smash Champion
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Jan 5, 2008
Messages
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San Diego, CA
SenorPresident, you're stretching it reeeeeeeeally hard.

Look, the argument's over now. Heavy Brawl presents more problems than it "solves", so it's out of the picture I think.
 

LavisFiend

Smash Lord
Joined
May 10, 2007
Messages
1,713
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Alexandria, Louisiana
To alter the default game by making a non-default mode the standard, will only be considered right in my mind if we dump a plethora of hammers, AT's, and FS balls in the mix....

Y'know, since we want to screw with the default mode by making it "right...."
 

Mario77

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
Messages
186
Think about this though, maybe normal Brawl is incredibly deep and fun but high gravity brawl was the standard. We could miss a deep, fun and different way to play Brawl if we just cast aside a method of playing just because it isn't the default setting. Although this is all really in the worst case scenario where standard Brawl flops.
Not being the default setting is not the main reason that high gravity is bad. It gives certain characters large advantages while others get screwed...

Like its been said, Captain Falcon will die early and often in high gravity too to EVEN WORSE recovery, and Pit and Metaknight and all those insane recovery characters will laugh at high gravity and fly back to the stage. That is just ONE example. Do we realy need to make the pace of the game faster by ruining what balance we have in this game?

Sure, it allows for more combos and faster pace, but it is NOT wort giving alot of characters a disadvantage and allowing them to die at an earlier % than they should.

The game WAS balanced according to the default gravity setting after all.
 

Mario77

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
Messages
186
Lightning Ice, all those things you mentioned were designed that way:

Fox's Shine: The fact that it does damage at all means that it was meant to be used as an attack.

Bomb-jumping: This is supposed to reflect Samus's actual capabilities from Metroid games.

Needles: I don't see any rational for why this is not the case. Why shouldn't needles cancel out charged blasts?

I just don't want to isolate groups. This is like what happened with YGO: Konami of America decided to make its ban/restriction list different from Konami of Japan, so two different types of games arose. World tournaments became a mess, players from opposite camps became pissed at each other, and the game is now flailing, even after they decided to fix the incompatible lists dealie.

I don't want this to happen to Brawl. It would suck if Brawl got split up into two different camps, and I'd go with the regular Brawl because that's simply how the game is made.

What I'm afraid this is gonna do is make a bunch of people bandwagon onto the Heavy Brawl camp and not even give regular play the chance it deserves. Play it for a while ****it. A lot of you are still accustomed to Melee. Let's just pretend this is not even a sequel and just try it how it was meant to be played.

And don't try to compare it with SSB64, because the only "step" I see going towards SSB64 is the speed while EVERYTHING else is different. SSB64 had crazy crap like 0% to kill combos, insta-spikes, and incredibly easy L-Cancelling. Brawl doesn't.

Don't think of it in terms of "Brawl is missing this while (insert version of Smash here) has that". Just think of it in terms of "this is Brawl."
YES!, Quoted for Truth, I dont want to have to learn how to play 2 kinds of Brawl, face it, default mode is going to be played by 99% of brawl players, and veering off and playing with high gravity as the standard would cause major problems
 

Dan-E

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 1, 2004
Messages
146
are people seriously trying to tell other people how to play the game?

geeze seriously if we find high gravity more fun or want to experiment with high gravity there's absolutely no reason to come in here bashing it. seriously this thread should be about discussing the game changing mechanics of the high gravity brawl.

does it matter if the competitive scene gets split into two? no not at all if both sides are having fun. seriously stop it. it's getting annoying.
 

mezbomber

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 5, 2007
Messages
219
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Mankato
standard, in context for future competitive brawling, will be determined as needed. It's not out of the question to question or suggest anything. Ideas will be deliberated, and most importantly, tested out. Whatever works the best will naturally become the standard...kind of like natural selection. People should try playing under both of these suggested parameters. There will probably be things you can learn from both, as well as disadvantages from being used to one style too much when trying to compete in the other. Make your choice, and try not to be too imposing or impolite when confronted with differing opinions.

maybe it's because I really appreciate both competitive and casual play (read: strict and not-strict). You might think it's stupid, but I kind of see it as the equivalent to fusion of mind and body...understanding seemingly opposite styles of play, and believing that playing both gives you ideas you wouldn't have otherwise.

or maybe it's just all this election in the water that makes me passionate about everyone playing brawl how they want to play it.
 

LavisFiend

Smash Lord
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May 10, 2007
Messages
1,713
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Alexandria, Louisiana
Why waste time training in a mode that is NOT the default mode?

Y'know, why not spend your time practicing in the RIGHT friggin' mode, instead of screwing yourself over by playing in a side mode as if it were the default?

It is not the default mode. It never was, and it never WILL be.

To believe that people will take a trip to the special melee button to engage in actual competitive Brawl as opposed to heading to the regular VS mode is laughable. You hear me? Laughable. GUFFAWKINGFAW!

THERE IS NO REASON TO PLAY A MODE THAT DISADVANTAGES CHARACTERS JUST SO YOUR CHARACTER CAN HAVE THE ADVANTAGE. It SEVERELY undercuts many heavy characters and that is absolutely not fair. On top of that, in order to seriously play THAT mode, you WOULD have to limit yourself to a handful of characters....

Make combos with the REAL mode, as opposed to taking the easy route and going to the altered mode.

Just because TC sucks at the game because he can't string a combo in the NORMAL mode dosen't mean everyone else can't.

Oi, you all give me headaches.
 

Sm00th_Crim1nal

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 26, 2005
Messages
528
Location
Davis/Fremont, California
I think the high gravity option is the most positive thing I've seen about brawl since launch. With an increase in gravity faster gameplay, applicable combos, edgeguarding, and all around more exhilerating mode of play is open to us. However I do see the other side of the coin and I think brawl does deserve some breathing room to acknowledge if the default settings are the best way of moving forward.

What I don't like is how some of my fellow smashers accuse those pro of high gravity as ignorant and scared of change. We've all seen the game and can agree that the lack of speed and combos lessens the "Whoa" factor we all loved and attracted us to melee. A fact many on this thread forget is that we bet MONEY on this game; and when you see things like random tripping you start questioning things like Sakurai's omnipotent balance.

All in all I say let brawl show its stuff default for the first 6 months, if things dunt evolve or if the gameplay dulls we could potentially come to this mode of play (high grav).
 

mosk123

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
274
sorry if this has already been asked, but

is there a guide for chosing modes and items or whatever for brawl?
since the game in JP is hard for some people to understand, did anyone make a video of which modes are which, ect.
So i can try nout high gravity and stuff

Thanks :D
 
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