Data All Aircraft Report! - Fox MU Discussion Thread

[Legato]

I can say a bit about Falcon MU.

I'd say Falcon definitely has better aerials while Fox has a better ground game. Even Larry Lurr respects the safety that utilt affords Falcon upon landing.

Mostly it seems like it is best to approach a Falcon once he is grounded, otherwise you will be outspaced by his aerials. Utilt--->dair has always been handy at low percents if you catch him in the air with utilt, otherwise stick to utilt--->grab because good Falcons will shield after the first or second utilt. This is a MU in particular that Fox must really avoid trying to roll, especially if cornered at the edge. Falcon can just cover so much range with his smashes and raptor boost. I've seen many Fox's fall to a good read on roll with Raptor Boost, and that move kills Fox so early.

Mostly, just try to secure a kill as early as possible, a Falcon with rage is scary since he can kill easily around 80%. Pretty even MU.

Fox's main combo potential is mostly in the low-mid to mid % range for Falcon (I believe the 20-35% range?). Also, Fox seems to do quite well against Falcon on Battlefield, mostly because Fox can combo better than Falcon when you add platforms.

 

[Foster J.]

While one can argue that Pit has better edgeguarding with the arrows, and better killing prowers with the Upperdash gauntlet, then Dark Pit is better at knocking Fox offstage with the Electroshock Gauntlet, which adds for better stage control.

For sure Pit has an upper hand, or rather an extra option, but Dark Pit thrives better at knocking them offstage and going for a Fair Nair or Bair IMO, and because of the other gauntless, it's easier to "force" the illusion into the stage out of Fox, which can lead up to a killing option.

Dark Pit is a secondary of mine, so I do this from time to time against other Fox players, even Fairs off the stage works nicely at low percentages.

Another difference is the arrows, but here's a gimmick to take note off, Dark pit don't have to use as much time as Pit to aim the arrows, meaning it's easier to punish Pit off a wiffed Arrow than Dark Pit.

But not a lot of people know how to space the arrows correctly, so I'm not sure if the MU is a 55:45 or a plain 50:50, as they posses a killing throw, an Armored "Raptor Boost" which is perfect for catching rolls, cause the Pits like Falcon is one of those characters that does well with rage being the mid weight in the game, so a ledge Fthrow at the ledge can kill at or below 100 depending on DI with that rage.

 

[C_Swirl]

I'll add in my own two cents here.
For both the Pits and Falcon, Fox should be able to juggle them in the air and put on the pressure with U-Airs and Bairs fairly easily. The fact that Falcon is a fastfaller makes the juggling game easier and a good player can easily bait airdodges for those who don't know how to escape the pressure. The Pits are floaty so they're going to have a hard time getting down once in the air.

Falcon has the superior jab game so the notorious DJC will be next to useless in the early-mid percents. As Fox is both light and a fastfaller, don't be surprised if Falcon can get 4 U-Airs off of a d-Throw. Falcon also has the advantage of having one of the easiest spikes to land in the game so if Fox is forced to Up-B, then that could cause problems. Also stated before, with his plethora of kill moves, Falcon kills Fox A LOT more easier than Fox kills Falcon.

As for the Pits, the range on his Jab and tilts can be used to zone out Fox, but if Fox gets in, he stays in. Pit is susceptile to the DJC and overall Fox's jab sets up a lot against them. A Pit with rage is scary though, as a F-Throw near the ledge will kill past 115% and Pit's Side-B will kill at the same if not 5-10% later.

MU: Falcon v. Fox, 60/40, 55/45
MU: Pits v. Fox, 40/60

 

[DavemanCozy]

Any chance you could put the matchup details (pros and cons, how too play against said character) in the initial post? It would be much better than having to skim the entire thread. You could quote many of the members here who posted good points and strats regarding matchups.

Sure, I've seen other threads do this and I think it'll be better than pointing to a checkpoint post. I'm gonna do that later today when I update the thread (on a tight schedule atm).

Matchups this week:
vs
vs
vs

 

[Skarfelt]

Rosalina discussion, praise the lord. Feels freaking 0:100 in her favour man, what the hell do I even do besides pick Sheik.

Not as familiar with the Samus matchup but my main Irish rival is a Sheik main so I can talk about that.
45:55
Similar to Yoshi and Luigi, this is a matchup that seems much harder than it actually is if you just play standard Fox. Jab locks don't work, up tilt spam doesn't work, down throw follow ups are hard and you have to just give her a lot of respect. However, there are a few things to recognise about this matchup that you can abuse.

First of all, I feel really free trading damage Sheik. Her Fair does 4% compared to our 9% Nair so you're honestly fine to just trade hits. Additionally, you being at high percent doesn't matter too much as long as you can abuse mobility to not die - Sheik can't abuse the fact that you're light as well as other characters can at all. Fox has to play very patiently and try to get Sheik above him - Sheik has very few options from above and her aerial mobility is poor outside of Bouncing Fish. Uair juggles are really good here, especially if you can take her to Battlefield or Town and City.

All that said, though, Sheik is still Sheik. Her neutral game is godlike and she can edgeguard you very well. You're gonna have to do some very creative mixups to avoid just being Bouncing Fish'd off stage all day during your Side B startup so shine stalls, double jumps, fast falls, sometimes even Up Bs are needed for recovery.

Sheik is quite a light character and while it is hard to punish her, it's not impossible. You can trade Up Smash with all of her aerials - the only one that can kill you is Fair at ridiculously high percent or a sweetspotted Bair which isn't sweetspotting you on the ground anyway. I generally feel very safe just running up to her and Up Smashing when she's about to hit the ground.

If you're at low percentages, just keep the laser game going and play super safe. Sheik can rack up damage and momentum very easily off grabs and you can't really do the same. At early percentages, Sheik is scary and you have to respect that. At higher percentages, you can frustrate her and punish her impatience. For that reason, this matchup is kind of volatile - an optimally played Sheik should never be in a position to be punished but imo an optimally played Sheik should never lose a game anyway so it's not really relevant.

Kind of rambly but I'll try to get a bit more focus if I make another post.

 

[C_Swirl]

I have yet to play an actually good Rosalina so I can't say much. No matter it's still annoying.

Same with Samus but based on my experience, the match up looks like 70:30 Fox.
Samus isn't fast, is floaty, and U-Air strings will probably end up killing her more than anything. Reflector says no to all her projectiles. Fox pretty much counters Samus imo. If she tries to Up-B to get out of the DJC, Fox can shield and punish afterwards. The only thing Fox should fear is a stray smash attack or her Bair and U-Air.

The same thing with Sheik. I haven't fought any exceptional ones to think that the MU is as skewed in her favor as everyone says.
DJC won't be useful till kill percent. Sheik can edge guard extremely well against Fox's linear recovery, with BF netting some surprising kills. Fox's U-tilt strings will probably go no higher than 2. U-Air still does fairly well at juggling and most if not all trades will be in Fox's favor. If Fox can manage to kill Sheik first, then that works EXTREMELY well in this MU as we all know Sheik has severe problems killing and rage U-Smash will kill near 100%.
Based on everyone's perception though, Sheik has a clear advantage in racking up percent and staying in a position where Fox can't punish her so at the end of the day I'll say 60:40 Sheik.

 

[Mr.Random]

I think Fox was designed really well in this game. Can't think of one match up where he is straight up countered.

 

[Skarfelt]

ROSALINA

Seriously, what in God's name do you do against a character that punishes fast fallers and aggression with campy bs and wah

 

[Foster J.]

ROSALINA

Seriously, what in God's name do you do against a character that punishes fast fallers and aggression with campy bs and wah

Dash attack that Luma, Nair that Luma, In general it's all about knowing the MU, but Rosalina is one of the worst for sure. It's very important to shield after getting a strong hit in, otherwise the luma will just have an attack que'd up as she pulls it to her.

 

[Dr. Snakes]

I think the trick to Rosalina is only going in when you know you can come out on top, and when she's in a disadvantageous position, getting the most out of your punishes.

Bait out her options in different ways, and when she commits to something, try to maneuver around it and punish it. Rosalina is floaty, and her attacks stay out for a while, so she has to commit to a lot of her aerial options. The same applies if you have her in the air and you're on the ground. If she goes for a Dair to cover the landing, she's vulnerable from the sides. A Bair, she's vulnerable underneath and in front. Fair, beneath and behind. Just read what options she's going to take an try to capitalize to the fullest.

If you ever get a chance, kill Luma. I can not stress this enough. That's the main reason I take Dark Pit in this matchup (Electroshock typically bodies Luma in one hit), but Fox can punt the thing off with a quick Bair.

 

[DavemanCozy]

You all should know that grabbing Rosa and F-throwing her when Luma is close (Luma should be behind Rosa) will knock that annoying star away, hopefully offstage. The knockback is faaar.

Dunno about Rosa winning the MU either, she's incredibly light for such a big character. At ~85%, Dash attack -> Uair is hard for her to escape and actually KOs her on FD (not sure about DI).

 

[ArikadoSD]

Hey, Sheik main here, summoned by a post on the Sheik boards.

I played against a bunch of Foxes, and I've been playing with somewhat of rival of mine around my skill level lately who mains Fox (shoutouts Skarfelt), and I feel like the matchup is pretty much even. Fox can't utilt spam or jab lock Sheik as far as I know, and can't juggle her too much because of her fair, while the opposite isn't true because Fox doesn't exactly have a frame 3 nair like Yoshi to break out of combos.

Sheik is pretty light so Usmash kills very early; and believe me Fox can have plenty of opportunities to get a Usmash against Sheik. Bouncing Fish on shield will send Sheik back and most of the time Sheik will initiate the second kick, and by doing that she shortens the distance she bounces back.. what that means is that Fox can just run up and Usmash most of the time and it could land. I've seen this happen quite a few of times but I'm not sure if its guaranteed or not; I guess it's definitely worth looking into, cuz I could be wrong.

I'd say the biggest thing for Fox is the off-stage game. Sheik just dominates there. Side B can be interrupted with vertical needles, and Up B just screams "HIT ME", so that's definitely one of the bad things about the matchup from Fox's perspective. From Sheik's perspective I think the biggest thing is Fox's ability to kill extremely early compared to Sheik at least, which has to fish for a kill set up (needles from air to bouncing fish, weak nair to bouncing fish, gimping, or at higher percents/with rage ftilt to uair) from like 100%, whereas Fox can kill from 90% with Usmash and a bit of rage. That's something to capitalize on. OoS Usmashes are also ridiculously good because reckless Sheiks could be fishing for some fairs on shield which aren't so safe, so there's that.

Not really sure what else to say, sorry if this post was useless :v

 

[Afro Smash]

I'd agree with Samus MU being 70/30 in Fox's favour.

We're a big target and floaty which means he can poke at us a lot with Up Airs and cover our landings with dash attacks, which set up for more juggles. His running up smash is able to punish a lot of our laggy moves, but honestly we can hide in shield at high percents to little punish, since Fox has no kill throws and he never wants to battle with us offstage, and he cant jump high enough to get us with Uair.

Pressure with Ff Nair and Dair can be mitigated with Up B Oos, however good Foxes will bait this out, and baiting it out at high percents = running up smash as always, and obviously he has the reflector to stunt missile pressure and make Charge Shots risky

We have a big advantage in the weight department, a well placed Cs can kill from around 90, where as we can live until about 120% with good di, Fox has a really exploitable recovery able to be baired/naired/daired fairly easily and we can force him low to firefox with homing missile and CS pressure off stage.

The MU might only be 60/40, I felt overwhelmed when facing my first good fox with constant FF Nair to IDA pressure, so with practice it might not be so difficult but overall MU is in Fox's favour

 

[Skarfelt]

You all should know that grabbing Rosa and F-throwing her when Luma is close (Luma should be behind Rosa) will knock that annoying star away, hopefully offstage. The knockback is faaar.

This is a really awesome point I haven't really considered and I'll be looking to use, thanks.

In regards to how to deal with Rosalina in general, like Dr Snakes said, her moves tend to have linear hitboxes and stay out a while. I feel like there's no point trying to make big plays in neutral - it's far more effective to wait for Rosalina to commit to a dash attack or something similar to start juggling her. Her options to get out of juggles are very limited and she's even lighter than we are. Similar to Sonic, we have to play so patiently and just take the damage where we can. This is speaking from the side of Sheik vs Rosalina which is what I normally play, though, so I can't comment too much on anything besides universal problems Rosalina has. I'm definitely going to practice Fox against her more, though.

snip

Agree with pretty much everything Arikado mentions here and one thing that hasn't really been brought up is that Sheik is definitely very light. Up Smash will beat every option Sheik has when she's about to land and if we shield anything she should be flying.

Again, like all the characters above us tier-wise, you just have to respect that Sheik is straight up a better character with more safe options. The things that work on 90% of the cast don't work on Sheik, Diddy, Sonic, Rosalina and Yoshi which is probably why we have such a hard time retraining our muscle memory to stop jab locking, up tilting and Fairing. I feel like Fair is just a bad move in this matchup because Sheik's Fair is going to beat you every time so you only want to Fair if she's still in hitstun. The only other thing I don't think I mentioned is just abuse Uair. Sheik is at her most vulnerable above you so if you can take her to Battlefield or Town and City, just don't let her land. You have an awesome disjoint on Uair you can abuse and awesome mobility to catch her if she mixes up her landing with bouncing fish. This is why I feel Up Throw is our best throw in this matchup past like 50% - even if we don't land the Uair to continue juggling, we can regrab or dash attack and apply pressure that way. Traditional pressuring using Nairs and uptilts isn't going to work anywhere near as well as we'd want.

 

[moyshe]

Im going to begin working on that picture with the MU numbers we have so far.

Also, I've been playing some really great Samus' and although I do think Fox wins the MU overall it's not easy. Samus' up air to up b combos can juggle fox pretty well and most her of aerials and ground game is a threat priority wise. Reflector is a huge part of this mu obviously, baiting out fully charged b's account for most of my kills on samus players. Up tilt spam is obviously a nice option on her as well because she's not super floaty and has a big hitbox. Basically if you hit all your punishes its pretty hard for fox to lose, but she is not to be trifled with.

 

[Legato]

I have fought some really good Samus players and I do not think the MU is at all 70/30.

That MU is really tough for my Fox actually. Samus can kill fox off of a grab as early as 50 percent by doing dthrow--->fair--->fair if at one side of the stage (center stage control is imperative for Samus) and I definitely DI'd away and tried air dodging. I was honestly shocked to see this combo happen actually... Besides if you air dodge she can very easy pick up a spike after the second fair through good positionsing. Seems like a true combo to death on Fox, not sure though since I don't play Samus. I have also had a good Samus use dthrow--->>uair--->fair-->screw attack for a good 40%. I tried air-dodging on both combos, it didn't work, not sure if there is a better way to vector to avoid them.

If the Samus spaces very well it is very difficult for Fox to get in. Also, Samus' dash attack has a very low cool down and can typically only be punished by dash attack unless the Fox power shields. A good Samus player forces some of the most precise play from me. I need to power shield to get punishes on a well-spaced samus, there just isn't any other way. Fox also cannot combo Samus very easily, so you really need to work for damage and do some good reads, otherwise you end up getting popped up and combo'd by Samus. Her punish game on Fox is ridiculous, and her edge-guard game allows kills as early as 20% if she knows what to do, and trust me dthrow--->fair---->fair will get Fox off stage very early. The grabs are risky for Samus, but a good Samus should know how to space them well, the ones I face definitely do, I seldom get a punish on the whiffed grab, because they seldom whiff them (they use mid-range projectile/aerial pressure mixed to force me in the air then grab). I'm not very sure in what world a Fox has an easy time juggling a Samus with her mix-ups on down b and speed while in the air. At best I had the easiest time pulling bair on Samus rather than uairs. In fact, I find bair much more useful than uair because a whiffed uair usually results in a punish against the Samus players in my area.

All of this said, Fox definitely wins neutral, but he will need to make as few mistakes as possible. A good Samus can combo very heavily on Fox. When I am playing on point I tend to really wreck the Samus player, but one mistake means a hefty punish, and most of the time, a very close brush with an early death. Be weary of her grab when in the air, it is good at catching you when in that position. I strongly advise a conservative edge-guard as well. I work really hard to beat the Samus players in my area (they are really good players though). So far for me, definitely 50/50 if not a bit in Samus' favor, but I think it will tilt in the other direction as I learn more from them about the MU.

Note: utilt strings do not work on Samus players who know the match-up and a whiffed utilt typically means a bair or fair to the face. At most you can get two utilts at early percents, otherwise it will not work.

 

[C_Swirl]

I have fought some really good Samus players and I do not think the MU is at all 70/30.

That MU is really tough for my Fox actually. Samus can kill fox off of a grab as early as 50 percent by doing dthrow--->fair--->fair if at one side of the stage (center stage control is imperative for Samus) and I definitely DI'd away and tried air dodging. I was honestly shocked to see this combo happen actually... Besides if you air dodge she can very easy pick up a spike after the second fair through good positionsing. Seems like a true combo to death on Fox, not sure though since I don't play Samus. I have also had a good Samus use dthrow--->>uair--->fair-->screw attack for a good 40%. I tried air-dodging on both combos, it didn't work, not sure if there is a better way to vector to avoid them.

If the Samus spaces very well it is very difficult for Fox to get in. Also, Samus' dash attack has a very low cool down and can typically only be punished by dash attack unless the Fox power shields. A good Samus player forces some of the most precise play from me. I need to power shield to get punishes on a well-spaced samus, there just isn't any other way. Fox also cannot combo Samus very easily, so you really need to work for damage and do some good reads, otherwise you end up getting popped up and combo'd by Samus. Her punish game on Fox is ridiculous, and her edge-guard game allows kills as early as 20% if she knows what to do, and trust me dthrow--->fair---->fair will get Fox off stage very early. The grabs are risky for Samus, but a good Samus should know how to space them well, the ones I face definitely do, I seldom get a punish on the whiffed grab, because they seldom whiff them (they use mid-range projectile/aerial pressure mixed to force me in the air then grab). I'm not very sure in what world a Fox has an easy time juggling a Samus with her mix-ups on down b and speed while in the air. At best I had the easiest time pulling bair on Samus rather than uairs. In fact, I find bair much more useful than uair because a whiffed uair usually results in a punish against the Samus players in my area.

All of this said, Fox definitely wins neutral, but he will need to make as few mistakes as possible. A good Samus can combo very heavily on Fox. When I am playing on point I tend to really wreck the Samus player, but one mistake means a hefty punish, and most of the time, a very close brush with an early death. Be weary of her grab when in the air, it is good at catching you when in that position. I strongly advise a conservative edge-guard as well. I work really hard to beat the Samus players in my area (they are really good players though). So far for me, definitely 50/50 if not a bit in Samus' favor, but I think it will tilt in the other direction as I learn more from them about the MU.

Note: utilt strings do not work on Samus players who know the match-up and a whiffed utilt typically means a bair or fair to the face. At most you can get two utilts at early percents, otherwise it will not work.

If you don't mind me asking, how do you play your Fox? I have never heard of a Fox getting punished for trying to U-Air unless it was from a trade. My opinion could also stem from the fact that imo the Samus' I played were nothing special.

 

[RoachCake]

The MU is in no way 70/30, if the Samus player keeps doing SH FF F-airs, sure.
I see it as 55/45, only reason it's slightly in Fox's favor is because of his reflector making it risky to use Charge Shot, but, a smart Samus player can decide to never use their CS and just have it fully charged to mess with your head, causing the Fox player to throw out their reflector only to get grabbed or Dash Attacked.

Don't start the game off with lasers, I've met too many Fox players that do this, you give up your stage control or you could end up eating a Dash Attack or getting grabbed.
With proper spacing with Z-air and F-tilt and stage control Samus can make Fox's life pretty hard.
Punish mis-spaced or Power Shielded Z-airs with Dash Attack or grab.

Try not to get knocked offstage by Samus, ever, getting knocked offstage could mean your stock at ANY percent against Samus.
When you do get knocked offstage however, recovering low with Fire Fox is a very risky option, you become an easy target for D-airs, recover more high-ish with Fox Illusion, make sure you sweet spot the ledge though, too high and you could eat a Missile or CS, too low and you could eat a B-air stage spike or D-air when you have to start up Fire Fox.

 

[Legato]

@ C_Swirl I am a rather conservative Fox that will switch between campy and offensive as I see fit. I very much play depending on my opponent's style, but I tend to prefer a more offensive style as default. If Samus calls the Uair she can actually air dodge and position herself beside Fox for a fair. It's actually a very impressive play that I have seen by two of the Samus players I have faced, and it is very tight timing on their part as well. Uair punishes don't happen nearly as often with battlefield, in fact I don't think I have been punished for uair on that stage.

FD/omega levels tend to be in Samus' favor. Picking areas with low ceilings is definitely a good idea because Samus is definitely a horizontal killer. I neglected to mention that Samus can also combo utilts about 3 times at low %'s which send you at a good angle for her to combo into fair if she is keen.

Sorry looking back I seem a bit negative about the MU, I literally just played one of the Samus' last night online and got my butt kicked thoroughly, so I'm just a tad salty lol. She just requires so much focus, I pulled 4 good games and then lost my focus on the other matches we played. I would say that the MU is definitely 55/45 Fox for battlefield, FD I'm not so sure about. Seems like the MU is in samus' favor on flat stages. Those platforms make a huge difference for Fox.

Edit: Just a sidenote, but I think this needs to be said: I think Samus is severely underrated in this game. I think the character is actually pretty good so it is unsurprising she can give Fox mains some trouble.

 

[Parcheesy]

Heyo, overly aggressive Rosalina main checking in to cover some of the points not already touched on.

- I'd be very careful using lasers in this matchup, as Rosalina has one of the best dash grabs in the game due to her ability to extend the range with a boost grab while simultaneously sending Luma's dash attack forward to cover for her. Dash grabs in general are an aggressive Rosalina's strongest tool, so stay mobile and punish the healthy end lag rather than trying to snuff it with an attack. Of course she can always sit back and suck them in, but at the end of the day, that's more stalling than winning.

- How you handle Luma is going to effect how the entire match is played. Many Rosas will frequently opt to keep the Luma close, but there will always be moments where they are forced to play separate, and these moments are critical for an opponent to either capitalize, or be punished. Your first priority should almost always to put Luma into tumble, regardless of whether or not it's put off the stage, as it removes it as a threat immediately ( dash attack, forward throw, tilts, use whatever works). At this point, you have the option to turn onto the Rosalina who undoubtedly will try and prevent the killing blow on Luma, or finish it quickly before she has the opportunity to save it. As Fox, I'd opt for using the Luma as bait, as having a guaranteed read on Rosalina using the quickest approach gives him a lot of room to rack on damage, or score a stock.

As for Rosalinas who play with Luma untethered, know the different set of strengths and weaknesses this brings:
- Luma gains the ability to attack while Rosalina is in hitstun, allowing immediate grab breaks and combo breakers. If given the option, keep the fighting and combos away from the Luma, as the recall animation has a devastatingly long cooldown period.
- Their combo and kill setup game gets much stronger. Even a simple down tilt can lead into a Luma forward smash without the Rosalina player even having to move. Be constantly aware of the positions of both fighters, and be very quick and smart about your tech roll options ( A separated down smash often only leaves one correct roll option, while punishing the rest ).
- Of course, Luma loses it's laser protection, so if both fighters are keeping their distance while remaining separated, fire away.
- A lot of what makes Rosaluma's grounded tilts and smashes good is the multiple hitboxes that will often clang with, and then proceed to hit an opponent's similar options. Without the Luma, you should find attacks that would previously lose now overpowering Rosalina's single attacks ( or at least clang, which should never be in SoloRosa's favor ).

- and yeah, as many others have said, killing Rosa quickly off the top is how you win the matchup. Barring mid percent up air strings, and offstage gimps, Rosalina is going to need to tack on a lot more percent to get the kills, so take advantage of rage and snowball as hard as you can after an early kill.

I'm probably forgetting a few things, but the best way to win against Rosalina is to know the character as well as your opponent and not be taken offguard by any of the peculiar things she can do. Not too sure how the ratings will go at the highest possible skill cap, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was close to even, or perhaps a small advantage either way.

 

[C_Swirl]

@ C_Swirl I am a rather conservative Fox that will switch between campy and offensive as I see fit. I very much play depending on my opponent's style, but I tend to prefer a more offensive style as default. If Samus calls the Uair she can actually air dodge and position herself beside Fox for a fair. It's actually a very impressive play that I have seen by two of the Samus players I have faced, and it is very tight timing on their part as well. Uair punishes don't happen nearly as often with battlefield, in fact I don't think I have been punished for uair on that stage.

FD/omega levels tend to be in Samus' favor. Picking areas with low ceilings is definitely a good idea because Samus is definitely a horizontal killer. I neglected to mention that Samus can also combo utilts about 3 times at low %'s which send you at a good angle for her to combo into fair if she is keen.

Sorry looking back I seem a bit negative about the MU, I literally just played one of the Samus' last night online and got my butt kicked thoroughly, so I'm just a tad salty lol. She just requires so much focus, I pulled 4 good games and then lost my focus on the other matches we played. I would say that the MU is definitely 55/45 Fox for battlefield, FD I'm not so sure about. Seems like the MU is in samus' favor on flat stages. Those platforms make a huge difference for Fox.

Edit: Just a sidenote, but I think this needs to be said: I think Samus is severely underrated in this game. I think the character is actually pretty good so it is unsurprising she can give Fox mains some trouble.

If I had a Wii U, I'd offer to go against you so we could compare playing styles and possibly how to better approach the neutral. Also, Fox dittos (in my opinion) are rather annoying, but I digress.

 

[DungeonMaster]

As a Samus main, I have to say there's a clear pattern on for-glory. You beat someone with Samus, they switch to fox. Like clockwork.
What this means is I fight a lot of crappy fox players. A lot. So that colours my experience. My main sparring partner switched to fox recently, and he had a good run, but he reads me really well,
knows all my tricks.
In general though this is a good fight, I would give fox advantage overall but it's not huge. Fox is terribly, terribly light, basically one step higher than jigglypuff. That is clearly his weakness in the matchup,
if he trades at all, he's going to die. Fox can die at 80% from b-air, a tip f-smash or a fresh CS, off-stage much lower. If Samus crouches at all (and she should) she'll live to 150+ even with fox having a good amount of rage.
Fox has to get in and abuse the fact that Samus basically can't shield grab and has to space properly to avoid up-B out of shield. I don't actually see the reflector as that relevant, since you need a hard read and that really works both ways, and if the Samus is competent it's going to come out from a tech chase or a combo anyways.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Samus lost her previous N-air which hurts her a lot, she now gets juggled almost for free. My brother is SCA, he's a mid-level Melee Samus main up here in Ontario and he noted to me that the removal of her N-air now leaves her open to get juggled to no end because she can't put a long lasting hitbox out to cover her landing anymore. This combined with her floatiness can really destroy her against Fox, who is good at chasing on the ground and getting U-tilt strings. That said, Samus ain't the same anymore. Also, SCA gave up on Smash4 Samus, he prefers Kirby and Ike in this game and would rather focus on Melee Samus. I've heard bombs in this game somewhat mitigate her problem getting juggled.

I've also heard that regular shots from Samus are good to keep pressure on the opponent: not fully charged, just small shots. Is this accurate, or am I being duped? How does Samus use her projectiles against Fox?

Thanks @ DungeonMaster and @ Afro Smash for the Samus posts so far, as well as the other Samus posts we've had. I'm curious to see what you have to say with options Samus has coming down when getting juggled: barely anyone plays her, rarely have I encountered a Samus in tournament (and the ones I have are all bad, so that matchup experience is irrelevant).

Also thanks to @ Parcheesy for the Rosa post and @ ArikadoSD for the Sheik post.

Regarding and stages to fight her in:
I'm not really feeling Smashville: her U-smash sweetspot hits if you are standing on the platform. The moving platform also lets her get some nasty gimps and make it back onstage safer.
I definitely don't like Castle Siege because of the statues giving her some bouncing fish tricks, and the size of the first transformation doesn't give Fox enough room to do much of anything.
Duck Hunt is probably my least favorite stage to take Sheik to, since the blast zones are closer to the sides than the other legal stages and her gimping game is nasty.
I'm fine with Halberd, Battlefield, FD, and Delfino against her.

Other stages? Not just regarding Sheik, but regarding the other MUs?

 

[ArikadoSD]

Regarding stages, I speak for myself here that I absolutely dislike Battlefield. It's probably the worst stage for the matchup from Sheik's perspective, but I also hate Battlefield in general when playing Sheik, the platforms get in the way too much for me to benefit from them. I like big plain stages like FD or smashville to an extent.

Skarfelt likes Town and City but I don't see it personally lol, I feel like it also benefits sheik because the platforms there are weird and it's a long stage.

I never really play on Delfino or Halberd when playing Sheik because I'd always strike them in a tournament and when playig friendlies no one picks them, but I'd assume they're good because usmash would kill earlier.

 

[Afro Smash]

Yeah Bombs make our horizontal movement much better, so as long as we're outside of DJ range I feel safe doing it, however it does put us in a state of vulnerability for a second or 2, so using it closer to the ground just gives fox multiple chances to poke at us with uairs. I usually retreat to a ledge vs Fox depending on their skill level, as they dont want to challenge us off stage and we can be quite a nuisance from the ledge. Bomb mix ups and saving your jump just before hitting the ground can be a good way to force a commitment from a Fox and land relatively safely, but he covers ground so quickly it can be difficult.

Also yeah we have no way to punish a fox beneath us because after we come out of the Airdodge animation he's already fallen much faster than us back to the ground, if they miss to the left or right as he's rising we can potentially punish

 

[DungeonMaster]

@ DavemanCozy Yep your analysis and your brother's is spot on. She's a very different character than melee Samus, and Brawl Samus for that matter, and that's also a big reason for the exodus of players using her.
It takes some practice to avoid getting juggled, as a rule in smash4 Samus true-combos poorly but strings very easily. If she is getting juggled, it's the fault of the player, he does have input time and DI options, he's simply not taking it. Regardless, you're not actually screwed like some other characters, the diddy hoo-hah can actually full on fail on an alert Samus for instance specifically because of the floatiness.
Like @ Afro Smash said recovering to ledge is quite safe vs. fox since his offstage game isn't good and it is my personal default.
A lot of people have been putting in a lot of work to try and understand the new Samus, and that n-air in particular. It definitely no longer covers descending on stage but it does do a lot of other things. It knocks prone and horizontal, setting up charge-shot tech chase. It's fast enough to retaliate out of certain multi-hits, like fox's jab termination if he tries for it at high %. It works very well out of a shot-hop air-dodge, which I think is becoming the default option for knowledgeable Samus players to use instead of her piss poor roll, it even allows for several low-% combos and strings. @ RoachCake is an expert at stringing it and it definitely does string aerially for gimps.
So there are some trade-offs and some benefits to both the floatiness and the new nair. It's not solid gold or utter crap, it's simply different. Many months later, I am still adjusting and I don't think I'm alone. I really wouldn't write this character off just yet, and not in this matchup.

As for small charge shots, I do use them but not against fox. At mid range they will trade favourably with lasers due to laser end-lag in smash4, but super missile is better in this regard. The uncharged shot can gimp low offstage as well. Against fox, you're going to bait the reflector with a missile typically and then z-air straight through the reflected missile and hit fox in one motion.

 

[Skarfelt]

Skarfelt likes Town and City but I don't see it personally lol, I feel like it also benefits sheik because the platforms there are weird and it's a long stage.

I went through a phase of thinking Town and City is Fox's best stage (and I still do feel like it's excellent) but nah I'd go Battlefield against you all day now. Town and City is a pretty solid stage to take Sheik to though in my opinion because you can pressure her from below pretty effectively and lower ceilings means more Up Smashes means happier Fox. I don't like Delfino much against Sheik because I feel Fox is Godawful on walkoffs but maybe I just need to play there more. I'd definitely feel safer on Battlefield/T&C than on Delfino/Halberd but I wouldn't hesitate to take Sheik to any of BF/T&C/Halberd if they were open.

Now watch Arikado never ban Delfino again in tournament fml

 

[DEHF]

Fox vs. Rosalina

I don't have full depth knowledge of how to play this match up, but I want to say it's about even. Rosalina is very difficult to get in on with Luma, but Fox has all the tools needed to successfully approach her. Both characters can kill ridiculously early and edge guard each other pretty well. Without Luma Fox gets a guaranteed jab jab up smash on her.

Fox vs. Sheik

I think this match up is 6-4 Sheik's favor at the top level. Sheik wins neutral and also edge guards Fox extremely hard. My main reason for this being 6-4 is Sheik beats Fox probably worse than any character in the early game. Fox cannot get any solid combo strings on Sheik at 0% whereas Sheik can potentially get a 40+ combo on Fox at 0%. in the mid to late game the match up is fairly even with Sheik still having a slight edge because of edge guarding capabilities. Fortunately, I feel like the vast majority of Sheik players aren't very good in the match up. At lower levels of play this match up is even.

Fox vs. Samus

This feels like it's at least 6-4 Fox's favor. Samus is such a good weight and fall speed to get comboed hard by Fox. I don't really see Samus edging Fox out in any aspect except for edge guarding.

Also, I think we should restart the match up discussion from the beginning because of the patch. It would be best for us to postpoine next week's discussion. That way we can get some information on the changes of Fox and his match ups before continuing.

 

[Katakiri]

Hey all, the MK board is discussing the Fox match-up. Anyway input would be appreciated! Our discussions are always on-going as well, so no one's ever late to the table. http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-match-up-discussion-9-fox.398059/

 

[DavemanCozy]

Thanks @ Katakiri for stopping by, I've played the MK mu with some Toronto and Windsor players and I have learned to not underestimate Batman in this game despite his nerfs. The MU is even if not a slight favor in MK due to his offstage gimps on Fox.

Sorry for the delay, exam time is crazy time. I'm updating the thread right now to discuss the following matchups:
vs
vs
vs
I actually have experience fighting and playing as , I'll comment on that mu when I get some time.

(PS: I haven't ignored the quotes thing in the OP, I've just been busy. When school calms down a bit, I'll make sure to sit down and include those in the OP)

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

@ DavemanCozy Any chance you could put the matchup details (pros and cons, how too play against said character) in the initial post? It would be much better than having to skim the entire thread. You could quote many of the members here who posted good points and strats regarding matchups.

I feel like Fox is one of those characters(along with Kirby too) who has many MU that are nearly even. You know, not many characters struggle Much against him and vice versa sometimes?
But if people are actually still talking about Fox vs characters that were done some time ago I will give WHAT I KNOW about Kirby vs Fox.

Ok so yea we all know Fox clearly out speeds Kirby, but Kirby is small and has some moves that are great at poking.
We combo fox easier then he combos us, we are prone to his juggling because of our low air and falling speed.
We have the upper hand in terms of KOing and we easily edge guard him(I think Nair beat fox illusion.) But his speed is something we cannot sleep on. It's something that does not give us much time to take a breath or have time to think.
Now what made this in our favor before was the fact that we had chain grabs against him, but that's gone now. We have some slight(but still difficult) to pull off combos from mainly our Bthrow. Thankfully ours have some nice knockback to get him offstage.

If anything fox out ranges us(barely at all) but he has some lag in his attacks which we can punish on.
Both characters rely on punishing the others mistakes to get in some good damage.
Because of ours crouch, camping with lasers is useless, but that doesn't mean he has to approach.

I have school so I will sum up.
It's basically even 50:50 this MU requires patience and punishing. He kinda beats us onstage, but we beat him offstage .
I'm also going to assume customs won't be taken into consideration?(can't remember if I actually posted on this thread, think I have)

 

[SpaceDong]

Forreal next week can we discuss next? Been giving me some trouble.

As for Charizard and Robin I feel like these are in our advantage. Charizard due to his slow speed and lack of being able to get out of our combos easy.
Also if he flare blitz your shield... Get 3 ftilts ready in 25 frames bruh. Get that and anything you want, maybe a combo or even the stock.
Not much to watch out for here. Rock smash is decent pressure due to the super armor he gets. His offstage game isn't much against Fox either, unless of course we're forced into Up B. Generally if you can overwhelm Charizard this should be free. Charizard again doesn't have many good OoS options, especially if we attack him from a horizontal angle as his up b and up smash hit directly above him.
Robin isn't too difficult. We can shine two of his powerful specials (albeit I wouldn't recommend shining arcfire - free grab right there since arcfire would bounce at a stupid angle) And once again, we can overwhelm him. One thing I'd say that he does have on us is a free arcfire to uair, which kills us early. Nair can also catch us easily out of illusion or fire fox. However, we heavily outspeed him. He also doesn't have many good landing options. Get out of the way if he Up B's when you're tryna juggle him - run in for that free punish. Don't hide in shield too much, because Nosferatu can get us out of it and cancel out your work. Overall the main things to do in the matchup is to just not give Robin space to zone. Play in his face.

As for Wario... Eh I'm not sure about this matchup. I haven't played many (or any) in bracket using Fox.

Next week let's discuss the annoying yellow mouse thank you

 

[DavemanCozy]

Forreal next week can we discuss next? Been giving me some trouble.

Villager was on the list next, but we can discuss Pikachu next week instead if you all like.

By the way: since we have all been busy with patch notes, Mewtwo, and some of us with exams, I want to extend this week to follow through to next week. Let me know if you have issues with this.

 

[Mechageo]

Playing Robin, I haven't had much trouble with Fox. You have to remember that Robin can shoot arcfire at the ground next to your shield/deflector and that as the burning ends it gives one last hurrah hit that does a pretty good amount of knockback. If he sets an arcfire next to you, it's best to move away and get some free shots in with your blaster.

Robin also suffers if you deflect his up+b when he's trying to mess with your juggling game.

Don't worry about trying to deflect a fully charged Thoron, it won't work. He'll just get you in arcfire and shoot it when you're committed to something else or in the process of an animation (roll dodge maybe). A lot of Foxes try really hard to deflect that and end up taking tons of damage from other attacks.

Make sure to hit him with your laser whenever he's charging his thunder if possible, you'll rack up the damage quickly.

 

[shoff]

Speaking from Wario's perspective, I feel as though Fox may have the slight advantage here. Wario is in the air quite a bit, meaning Fox may often get free upsmash kills catching a Wario retreating or approaching mid air. Wario is forced to respect the upsmash as he hits 80-90 percent. Fox can gimp Wario and rack up pretty good damage from tilts, lasers, trades, etc. so the upsmash threat is usually there... a lot. Fox does have a pretty predictable recovery, and can be punished and gimped by Wario, especially with the fart. Chasing Wario around does leave Fox open to punishes though, which is something Fox players need to respect, along with the bite. The bite is going to make Fox players think about shielding an approaching Wario. But I really dont see Wario striking fear into the hearts of Fox players. I dont lose to many Fox players but that does not mean the matchup is in Wario's favor. Close matchup. I wouldn't mind playing any fox players here to learn more about it.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Fox is actually very easy to meteor with Charizard.

Try your best to stay on stage.

Moreover, don't get too greedy. Rock Smash is Charizard's trump card. Bait it if possible, but don't rush down as much as usual.

Treat it as a counter move.

 

[moyshe]

What happened to the MU numbers in the spoiler? I was working on updating the FOX MU Mural but they'e gone.

 

[DEHF]

Fox vs Charizard, not entirely sure because I've never played a really good Charizard and don't really use him. It feels like a 6-4 match up in Fox's favor, but I could be entirely wrong. Charizard is really big, so he's very easy to combo and has low air mobility. Double jab also works on him at any percent, which means racking up damage and getting a consistent kill option is as hard.

Fox vs Robin I think is 6-4 or worse. Robin being so slow makes it difficult to get consistent juggling on Fox since he can side b away and has a fast falling speed. Robin also can get double jabbed at any percent and can get juggled extremely hard. Robin's biggest strength is this match up is the ability to kill very early with the Levin sword.

Fox vs Wario I think might be even. Fox can juggle and combo Wario extremely well, but the issue that Wario's fart can kill incredibly early, especially against Fox who is fairly light.

 

[Zeton]

I have some footage that (might) be uploaded later regarding both the Charizard and Sheik match ups, Also I'll put in my opinion on the other mus later on (sorry I'm a very busy person please bear with me).

 

[DavemanCozy]

Some notes on

This man received some nerfs, significant enough to not make this a bad MU for Fox anymore (imo). He's still not to be underestimated though: I think he's being written off by a lot of players and is sorely underrated in the Western part of the world.

Some Wario things:

• Wario runs as fast as Luigi, his walking speed is among the lowest.
• Wario's air mobility got nerfed, but it's still among the best in the game, comparable to Jigglypuff's and Yoshi's.
• Fast aerial game, which in combination with his air movement makes Wario a powerful aerial opponent.
  
• Very strong edge-guarding game: Bite, Bike, D-air, F-air, B-air, Bike frame traps by the ledge, and of course the Waft.
• His Bike somewhat makes up for his otherwise avg ground mobility.

Neutral game by comparison (startup frames only):

Move | Fox Startup Frame | Wario Startup Frame
Jab | 2 | 8
Dash Attack | 4 | 4
Ftilt | 6 | 12
U-tilt | 3 | 12
D-tilt | 7 | 5
F-smash | 13 | 18
U-smash | 8 | 11
D-smash | 6 | 8
N-air | 4 | 4 (first hit)
F-air | 7 (first kick) | 5
B-air | 9 | 9 (!)
U-air | 9 (first hit) | 8
D-air | 5 (first hit) | 9 (first hit)
Grab | 6 | 8 [Chomp: 2]

This Wario won't be throwing bike parts at you, but his mechanic made numerous changes to it. This is a very, very different Bike from Brawl:

• Wario can't fall of his bike anymore, he can do as many turns as he wants.
• Wario can eat the bike to recover 1% and charge the Waft faster. He can also do this with the broken bike parts, despite not being able to grab them.
• The bike now has another lingering hitbox when Wario jumps off and ditches it while it rides along the ground. It's a very sturdy and meaty projectile, capable of withstanding one a charged Blaster3 shot from Fox. It also cannot be reflected back.
• Popping a wheelie generates another hitbox. Coming down from a wheelie generates an absurdly powerful hitbox that crushes opponents with the bike, capable of KOing as low as 80%.
• Turning the bike around will cause Wario to skid with the back wheel. The skid creates multiple hitboxes on the back that deal a lot of shield damage each, capable of breaking worn down shields. Knockback is also quite powerful at the edge of the stage, and the move has good range too. It leaves Wario at a safe distance since the back of the bike spaces him from where his body actually is.
  
• Riding the bike around is a useful way for Wario to move while protecting himself with a hitbox in the front and in the back.
• Upon the bike being destroyed, Wario can ride another bike immediately. If Wario rides along the ground and goes offstage, he can ditch the bike and use another bike back onstage as soon as the previous ones goes offscreen. Wario can go under Smashville like this and make it to the other side of the stage.
  
• Wario can also grab the bike and toss it as a heavy item. Like with Barrels and Crates, you can't catch this item. A smash thrown bike deals as much as 26%.
• Wario can also destroy the bike to extend hitboxes of his moves, particularly N-air, D-air, and Waft. Destroying the Bike with Waft will cause the hitbox to extend by a full 20 frames (1/3rd of a second more), capable of using this to trap opponents with a powerful lingering hitbox.

Beware of the Waft: it got nerfed damage-wise, but this move is now comparable in knock-back strength to the likes of Rest, capable of netting KOs at 50%. Be very wary of Wario's frame traps with the Bike using Waft, specially near the ledge.

Both Fox and Wario have Short-hop B-air, and both their B-airs come out at the same time. Yes, it's possible to have Fox and Wario trade and KO each other from opposite sides of the stage. Because Fox is lighter, this is usually not a worth trade.

Fox's neutral game is significantly faster than Wario's in the ground, though in the air he's capable of trading with Fox fine. Watch out for his N-air: it has a strong hitbox on startup that is powerful and then another one later that sends opponents on an upwards angle, letting Wario start his juggles in the air. Wario's N-air is a two hit move, not a late hitbox kind of move like Fox's. Since Fox is light and Wario is heavy, Wario won't be minding much to trade with us unless he's at high % himself.

One thing that Fox definitely has over Wario is onstage control. Though the bike helps Wario, it is by no means a safe approach: you can snipe Wario off his hog with a B-air or intercept him with a D-air or N-air. If you predict he's going to jump off his bike, F-air will do the trick as well. You might trade with Wario's F-air, but it's not a big deal since that move got it's knockback nerfed. Another thing Wario generally likes to do is find time to charge the waft: Fox's laser pressure and speed onstage won't give Wario many opportunities for this, so make sure to keep pressuring him. When playing with customs, I personally think that Laser1 is better against Wario than Laser3.

Chomp needs to be talked about, because it's Wario's command grab in the air. This move got buffed, it has less startup (grab on frame 2 is insane) and less ending lag, Wario can B-reverse it and retain momentum now, and it can also eat Fox's blaster projectiles: Laser1 isn't much of an issue since you can rapid fire and hit him when he closes his mouth with the following ones, but Laser2 and Laser3 can be eaten with no problem. He won't be recovering nor charging waft, but it's going to force you to find another way to approach if you're running the latter lasers.

Despite being a close-range command grab, Chomp beats a lot of attacks that go straight into Wario's mouth: Sheik's Bouncing Fish (if she doesn't kick on time), Diddy's Monkey Flip (only the grab, not the kick), Sonic's Spindash, Luigi's Green Missile (even misfires) and yes, even Fox's Illusion as well. If you plan on making it back onstage without grabbing the ledge, aim the Side-B so that you hit the top of Wario's head and not go directly into his stinky garlic-smelling mouth. Chomp is very effective as an edgeguarding tool, since Wario can go offstage and intercept you while he bites you falling offstage.

You can beat Chomp with Dash attack, jab, f-tilt, etc, like you would beat any other grab. Be wary of shielding close to Wario, even when he's in the air.

Oh, and Wario's Dash Attack has a low hitbox, while Fox's has a high hitbox. Both clang with each other. Wario's Dash Attack also has a lingering hitbox while he slides along the ground which can trip you or reset you to getup if you're down on the ground. You should be wary of the trip hitbox, since Wario can tech chase with Bike or an aerial.

That's all I have to say on Wario right now, I'll tell more as I keep playing the MU and playing the character myself. This also means I'll be telling the Wario boards about Fox too when they discuss the MU, but hey ¯\_ツ_/¯ we're all looking to get better.

My two cents: I think Fox and Wario go even in this game now. Fox wins onstage, Wario wins offstage.

What happened to the MU numbers in the spoiler? I was working on updating the FOX MU Mural but they'e gone.

I took them away for the time being. We can't really have solid numbers based on only one week's discussion.

The emphasis should not be on MU numbers imo, it should be on HOW to play the matchup and what stuff should be looked out for. I do still like your banner, however: is it possible to get it without the numbers and just the images? They were all really cool, and we can update the numbers later once we start discussing them more in depth.