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Alabama Thread! (10/26/2016 update)
- Thread starter moogle
- Start date
*Cam*
Smash Lord
same day as HASL
*Cam*
Smash Lord
They are the same thing. ChargerCon offered to have us host HASL during their convention, and we said yes.
Will_
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2008
- Messages
- 236
K thanks. Paul told me about it and I wanted to check after glancing at the ruleset. I know you guys banned MK but the legalizing of infinites seemed like some random scrubset. Is that the meta now? Or does nobody play DK/Ness/infinite-able characters. Upon typing this I had hoped that there could have been ways invented to break said infinites in my absence, but then they wouldn't be labeled as infinites anymore and there would be no need to mention them in a ruleset.
btw I plan on entering brawl, league and sc2 although I'm not sure on how many I can enter.
btw I plan on entering brawl, league and sc2 although I'm not sure on how many I can enter.
The legalizing of infinites has been a thing for a long time now; the last major tournament series to go against that was MLG.
Ness and DK both have really strong tools to avoid getting grabbed (especially Ness), but, the important thing is that we shouldn't be making rules in order to cater to specific characters (except for LGL, which is pointless status-quo due to Meta Knight ruining things for everyone). We don't have a rule that says, "Ice Climbers are not allowed to 0-death Ganondorf because that matchup is too bad/unfair otherwise." If you can't deal with the problems associated with a character, you probably shouldn't be picking them in a tournament.
Ness and DK both have really strong tools to avoid getting grabbed (especially Ness), but, the important thing is that we shouldn't be making rules in order to cater to specific characters (except for LGL, which is pointless status-quo due to Meta Knight ruining things for everyone). We don't have a rule that says, "Ice Climbers are not allowed to 0-death Ganondorf because that matchup is too bad/unfair otherwise." If you can't deal with the problems associated with a character, you probably shouldn't be picking them in a tournament.
_Keno_
Smash Lord
If infinites and grab-releases were all banned i would like this game much better.
Competitively it's a subjective change to the game, but whatever.
Competitively it's a subjective change to the game, but whatever.
Will_
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2008
- Messages
- 236
I remember one tourney where raph said he could chaingrab me with d3 across the stage, but he couldn't cg in place. Pretty sure that was a tourney run by the players. Plus, IC's 0-death isn't ganon-specific, so that's a bad example.
You've probably heard this before from other former mk mains, but I don't have another character to pick. Regardless, I'm still going with DK, I just thought that infinites would have been banned by now which is why I asked.
I used it as an example to show a really good character against a really bad character. Feel free to say, like, Dedede vs. Mario (standing chaingrab x5 before doing the regular chaingrab) instead, or Pikachu vs. Wolf, where Pikachu can do a 0-~115 with D-Throw xN -> U-Smash/N-Air, but cannot guarantee a KO (N-Air/U-Smash is a 50/50 for KOing due to DI). That's arguably almost as bad.
Regardless, the vast majority of events treat infinites and pretty much every matchup-specific thing with a "deal with it or pick a different character" mindset. There are many, many different matchups you could find yourself in instead; surely you don't HAVE to pick Ness or Wolf, etc.
theONEjanitor
Smash Champion
Super Gimmick Brothers Brawl
alot of people can plank i never fully understood why this was understood to be a meta knight specific thing. Pit's metagame centers largely around it, and without a LGL i dont think pit would be very beatable at all actually. actually no one that got a lead would ever lose. i dont get why this is said to be mk specific.
subjectivety goes a long ways though in brawl's current rulesets imo.
They can't do it nearly as safely as Meta Knight. You can just take the ledge from the other ledge-centered characters by moving downward while they're "stuck" on the ledge. Either they get off and you immediately take the ledge, or they don't come off and their invincibility wears off. Meta Knight can use two aerials before being vulnerable, and he can remain offstage for a long time. Many people just aren't well-informed enough to know how to beat it.
Meta Knight is the only character who takes it to a truly obnoxious level. Marth, G&W, and Pit only have it as an optimal strategy, not an overpowered strategy.
As far as subjectivity goes, because Smash gives you so many options, it's pretty inevitable for many things to be subjective changes, such as legal stages.
so, no matter what character it is, unless it is metaknight, you can sneak in there and grab the ledge before a re-grab? doesn't pit have ways to prevent you from doing that like upairs? or isnt GW's upb fast enough to pevent this? or wouldnt olimar's upair or whatever that move is hit you if you tried to just stand by the edge and wait on them?, or GW's nair?
anyways, there being a fool-proof plan to not let a character grab the ledge even two times in a row is news to me.
anyways, there being a fool-proof plan to not let a character grab the ledge even two times in a row is news to me.
theONEjanitor
Smash Champion
I'm pretty sure it has been proven by frame data that Metaknight is able to Plank in such a way that he is literally invincible (while also preventing an edge grab from the opponent) while doing so. no other character can do this.
edit: i do remember a thing where you can insta powershield falling aerial or something, but it requires like superhuman reflexes and will lose you a stock if you mess it up lol
Pit's planking is nowhere near as good lol. even if you aren't able to grab the ledge, many characters can just hit him lol
edit: i do remember a thing where you can insta powershield falling aerial or something, but it requires like superhuman reflexes and will lose you a stock if you mess it up lol
Pit's planking is nowhere near as good lol. even if you aren't able to grab the ledge, many characters can just hit him lol
so you can just hit every character out of them trying to grab the edge again? no matter what they do? like, every option they have to prevent you from hitting them will not work? and metaknight is just invincible?
i mean, i think characters can plank. but luis says they cant? and so what that metaknight gets more air time than other characters. that is annoying and good and gives him more options but thats all they are are options. that in and of itself isnt broken, having more options.
& you cant just hit pit out of his edge game, if you could then he wouldnt even have an edge game to start out with and in fact his edge game is one of the best things about him. i never see you utilize it though, kevin.
i mean, i think characters can plank. but luis says they cant? and so what that metaknight gets more air time than other characters. that is annoying and good and gives him more options but thats all they are are options. that in and of itself isnt broken, having more options.
& you cant just hit pit out of his edge game, if you could then he wouldnt even have an edge game to start out with and in fact his edge game is one of the best things about him. i never see you utilize it though, kevin.
When a character grabs the edge, they're stuck on the ledge for 24 frames. If they want to attack from it, the ledge becomes "open" before they can attack. As a result, if you start overlapping their body toward the end of the time that they're forced to be on the ledge, if they try to get off, you snap to the ledge before they can do any aerial. If they don't try to get off, they're spending their invincibility frames doing nothing.
As a result, you've taken the ledge from the opponent, but with U-Air's attack speed and Shuttle Loop's mobility and kill potential, Meta Knight will gladly wait for your invincibility to run out without actually being threatened. None of Pit's aerials end especially quickly, and his aerials won't stage spike you until middling percents, and his recovery isn't nearly as versatile as Meta Knight's.
All they can really do is get off the ledge, with the exceptions of the "good" ledge characters, like Pit, G&W, and ROB. It's not that edge play is either "******** broken" or "incredibly worthless." In the case of the other good ledge characters, taking the ledge still gives them options, but if you read them at that point, you can punish them pretty hard. If G&W tries to N-Air you or Pit tries to U-Air you, you can use your newfound invincibility frames to go through it and hit them, because their jumps don't really allow them to stick out an aerial and then defend before you can get off the ledge. Those characters have to make a decision and commit to something when the opponent tries to come down, but they're still generally in a better position than the opponent more often than not.
Pit's U-Air lasts 45 frames. G&W's N-Air lasts 35 frames. Meta Knight's U-Air lasts 13 frames. Given that the opponent is stuck on the edge for 24 frames, it's easy to see the disparity in safety here.
If you're not willing to listen to me, at least listen to an unbiased party--
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267257
As an aside, if you're not willing to read that and understand what it's all about, you're not allowed to have an opinion on the subject.
even if GW's nair or uair isnt fast enough to keep you from snapping onto the edge, he can just do one and then go down and upb and by then your invincibility frames would be gone and youd have to get back on the stage because his upb has a hitbox right? if you try and punish him before his upb comes out i think youd just get hit by his upb wouldnt you? anyways, rinse and repeat and this is the same thing as planking in essence. or what about that? i never saw that covered. i saw the two moves covered seperately but not together as a planking method.
i still dont think that you can get on the edge before GW's nair comes out. in the link they are saying that GW has to drop to do it and thats when you can grab the ledge but he doesnt, he can just go off to the side a bit also couldnt he?
i basically understand about pit. he just has a ledge game and not so much a planking one. but youre still gonna have a time getting to him and getting him off and take damage. and he does have the fly underneath the stage thing or whatever and ive tried to get the edge and always get upairs when pit goes from one side to the other. if you are trying to get him off the edge and he decides to change edges, none of my characters have been fast enough to get the edge before his upair frames come out. im sure i fyou are standing center stage, not trying to put any pressue on pit that you could feasably get the edge but thats just not realistic. how do you go about beating that?
what about olimar's offstage aeirils? can you punish olimar for doing a ledge drop succesfully? his upair doesnt last longer than your invincibility? or you having to shield his entire upair, youre still fast enough to get to the edge before him or his upb?
**& DMG is a pretty biased guy though, lol.
& in response to your post, if edge snapping onto a chracter still generally gives the character that is planking better options and you are puttin yourself in a risky situation (disadvantageous) to do it , is that really a good argument as to why everyone else sucks and metaknight is broken? its hypothetical anything can happen really and the character that is trying to plank is at an advantage. its a hypothetical defense too which i hate.
i get that metaknight can time you out and these other characters cant, but i dont see the problem with a LGL if there are ways to prevent these "ledge prone" characters from even grabbing the ledge that many times in the first place. it doesnt hurt anyone. sure, the rule may have been installed strictly bc of metaknight but so what? DDD had rules implemented strictly for him in the past like no standing infinites and no one seemed to care.
i still dont think that you can get on the edge before GW's nair comes out. in the link they are saying that GW has to drop to do it and thats when you can grab the ledge but he doesnt, he can just go off to the side a bit also couldnt he?
i basically understand about pit. he just has a ledge game and not so much a planking one. but youre still gonna have a time getting to him and getting him off and take damage. and he does have the fly underneath the stage thing or whatever and ive tried to get the edge and always get upairs when pit goes from one side to the other. if you are trying to get him off the edge and he decides to change edges, none of my characters have been fast enough to get the edge before his upair frames come out. im sure i fyou are standing center stage, not trying to put any pressue on pit that you could feasably get the edge but thats just not realistic. how do you go about beating that?
what about olimar's offstage aeirils? can you punish olimar for doing a ledge drop succesfully? his upair doesnt last longer than your invincibility? or you having to shield his entire upair, youre still fast enough to get to the edge before him or his upb?
**& DMG is a pretty biased guy though, lol.
& in response to your post, if edge snapping onto a chracter still generally gives the character that is planking better options and you are puttin yourself in a risky situation (disadvantageous) to do it , is that really a good argument as to why everyone else sucks and metaknight is broken? its hypothetical anything can happen really and the character that is trying to plank is at an advantage. its a hypothetical defense too which i hate.
i get that metaknight can time you out and these other characters cant, but i dont see the problem with a LGL if there are ways to prevent these "ledge prone" characters from even grabbing the ledge that many times in the first place. it doesnt hurt anyone. sure, the rule may have been installed strictly bc of metaknight but so what? DDD had rules implemented strictly for him in the past like no standing infinites and no one seemed to care.
BSL
B-B-B-BLAMM!!!
Olimar's upair (if it misses) ends on frame 34. If it hits, it ends on frame 70ish.
If he ledgedrops and upairs, you have time to snap to the ledge. 10 frames, I think, if it comes out on the 8th frame (which I'm pretty sure is right).
Since you're invincible, it doesn't hit, and ends on frame 30 of the move, which is 10 frames after his invincibility wears off.
At that point, I think you have a 3 or 4 frame advantage on him. His 10 frames of ending lag coupled with your remaining 6 until your first aerial begins. So if you have an aerial that can outspeed his (7,8,9,10 are the first hit boxes of his aerials, iirc) or even trade with his, you've won.
You've won because he is Olimar offstage and just got hit with a move. You're in an overall better position (above him, closer to the ledge, etc). If the aerials trade, you tech and grab the ledge. If yours beats his, you grab the ledge.
If you're holding the ledge and Olimar is offstage, all he can do is die.
If he ledgedrops and upairs, you have time to snap to the ledge. 10 frames, I think, if it comes out on the 8th frame (which I'm pretty sure is right).
Since you're invincible, it doesn't hit, and ends on frame 30 of the move, which is 10 frames after his invincibility wears off.
At that point, I think you have a 3 or 4 frame advantage on him. His 10 frames of ending lag coupled with your remaining 6 until your first aerial begins. So if you have an aerial that can outspeed his (7,8,9,10 are the first hit boxes of his aerials, iirc) or even trade with his, you've won.
You've won because he is Olimar offstage and just got hit with a move. You're in an overall better position (above him, closer to the ledge, etc). If the aerials trade, you tech and grab the ledge. If yours beats his, you grab the ledge.
If you're holding the ledge and Olimar is offstage, all he can do is die.
If G&W does a N-Air, you have at least 10 frames to hit him, since you can attack him after 24 frames of being snapped to the ledge. In the case of his Up-B afterward, he's forced to make a decision--Either Up-B immediately and risk the opponent getting up at roughly the same time (meaning G&W doesn't snap to the ledge while the opponent gets on-stage and is ready to punish easily) or wait and hope the opponent doesn't hit you/regrab the ledge (depends on positioning, but usually results in a dead G&W if you guess wrong). Because of G&W's large aerials, windboxes, etc., he's in an advantageous position overall most of the time, but it's still reasonably beatable and a fair (if boring) guessing game.
If you are falling next to the ledge when the opponent is getting off the ledge (to N-Air or ledge jump or whatever), you will grab it as soon as they get off. N-Air comes out on Frame 7. Ledge grab is frame 1. It's incredibly easy to take the ledge from any character, Meta Knight included (though it's considerably harder against him due to his awesome U-Air/Shuttle Loop/Tornado). The problem is, once you take the ledge, you still have to make yourself threatening to the person below you for it to matter. G&W only has one mid-air jump and a reasonably punishable Up-B (if you make it so he can't snap to the ledge), and Pit's aerials have a lot of cooldown and can't protect himself with an Up-B hitbox. Neither character can stage spike you on most neutral ledges with their attacks. It is very easy to see how much more of an advantage Meta Knight has here compared to every other character.
Saying that the ledge game is a bunch of hypotheticals shows how little you understand the mechanics of ledge play. There are only a certain amount of things that every character can do from the ledge, Meta Knight included. It just so happens that he's one of the only characters that can stage spike opponents at 0% from the ledge, has multiple jumps and one (of, like, three in the game) aerials that can be thrown out while still having frame advantage against someone who takes the ledge from you, and multiple recovery options.
Also, DMG made a name for himself about playing as lame as possible. I'm pretty sure he's not biased against the LGL. As far as Meta Knight is concerned, the numbers don't lie, unless you think that everything is a huge conspiracy created just to keep people from using Meta Knight due to the single fact that we don't like him.
As far as the LGL's legitimacy goes, it doesn't stop Meta Knight from being unfairly good in general (and he can still do it for a good 2-3 minutes if he stretches his time), while multiple otherwise-solid characters are made significantly worse by limiting their best options, even though they're reasonable beatable. The problem is that it doesn't adequately do what it was supposed to do (prevent Meta Knight from abusing ambiguous stalling stuff), and it artificially changes certain characters' tier list placings (seriously, do you think that Ice Climbers and Olimar would still be top tier if people could just grab the ledge against them?).
The infinite bans worked fine at limiting what they were supposed to limit instead of reducing depth for many other unintended things (almost the exact opposite of the LGL). They were dropped because people realized that we shouldn't give specific characters a leg up just because they're bad (sort of like Ice Climbers and Falco being terrible on the ledge).
BSL
B-B-B-BLAMM!!!
Oilman can grab people off the ledge if they aren't invincible.
GG he's so broken
GG he's so broken
i was saying that you were making a hypothetical defense and using hypothetical situations to prove your points and that doesnt make sense to me.
not that the ledge game is all hypothetical. i understand that there is a ledge game and understand what it is for the most part other than the fact i didnt know you could snap onto the ledge so quickly.
and once again i reiterate, most of your complaints about metaknight is just about him having more options than all the other characters. and i dont see anything wrong with that. theyre just options. so you just have to think of more of the things he can do. theres nothing wrong with that.
i compare metaknight to UMVC3 wesker in all honesty ;p
maybe a combination of wekser and a little virgil.
also youll have to show me how to punish GW for planking or TL for that matter, one day reflex, because i read what youre saying but all i can think about is how many times ive tried to get the edge from them and just gotten hit. lol. id love to see what youre talking about. but...... yeah i guess i dont go to tournaments or anything
not that the ledge game is all hypothetical. i understand that there is a ledge game and understand what it is for the most part other than the fact i didnt know you could snap onto the ledge so quickly.
and once again i reiterate, most of your complaints about metaknight is just about him having more options than all the other characters. and i dont see anything wrong with that. theyre just options. so you just have to think of more of the things he can do. theres nothing wrong with that.
i compare metaknight to UMVC3 wesker in all honesty ;p
maybe a combination of wekser and a little virgil.
also youll have to show me how to punish GW for planking or TL for that matter, one day reflex, because i read what youre saying but all i can think about is how many times ive tried to get the edge from them and just gotten hit. lol. id love to see what youre talking about. but...... yeah i guess i dont go to tournaments or anything
I'm not making a hypothetical anything. There are very few "what-if" situations on the ledge You generally have two options once the ledge is taken from you. Many characters die while attempting to plank if they pick one of the two options and the opponent reads them.
The "good" ledge characters have some combination of multiple jumps to prevent death on a bad guess, a long-lasting aerial meant to stuff people who don't have invincibility, or an Up-B that can be mostly-safe to recover with on reaction. It's reasonably possible for a player without TAS powers to get in and counter their options with good reads, as a bad guess for the offensive player doesn't get him KO'd unless he's already at KO percents, and the offensive player has frame advantage if the defending player chooses to throw out an aerial while getting off the ledge.
None of that is true against Meta Knight, as Shuttle Loop's knockback angle and base knockback mean that you often die at 0% from it in that position, U-Air leaves Meta Knight with massive frame advantage even if the opponent takes the ledge correctly, and his multiple jumps and recovery options make it so that he is never at risk of a gimp due to a bad guess (unless it also includes a really stupid option that Meta Knight shouldn't be using in the first place, I guess).
Comparing this to UMvC3 is dumb because there aren't any mechanics that are like the ledge.
This is why I hate to get into this conversation with you. You freely admit that you don't understand things, but refuse to believe other people who do understand it. This isn't about having more options--It's about being untouchable and legitimately unfair.
That said, I usually have to show people how to take the ledge from people, so you're not out of place in that. It's a simple concept that usually makes people think, "OHHHHHH!"
TheSaintKai
Smash Ace
BSL
B-B-B-BLAMM!!!
I said people not EVERYONE!
_Keno_
Smash Lord
lol m2k posted in the HASL thread. Isn't it going to be a somewhat tiny tournament?
Also I'm almost certainly not going =/
Also I'm almost certainly not going =/
o-Serin-o
I think 56 nights crazy
Any smashers still in the Bham area. I'm at UAB and I feel like playing someday.
theONEjanitor
Smash Champion
slam and I are here
i haven't played brawl in like two months though
i'd rather play P:M tbh
i haven't played brawl in like two months though
i'd rather play P:M tbh
o-Serin-o
I think 56 nights crazy
I actually prefer that.
_Keno_
Smash Lord
just kidding, im going. I'm bringing a friend, mario party 4, and melee.
Who all is going?
theONEjanitor
Smash Champion
metaknight being able to plank better than everyone else has little to do with why he's broken though. in my opinion at least. doing things that make you indefinitely invincible or make the fight not able to happen should be banned altogether, so i wouldn't use that as a reason why a character should be banned. it would be like saying "mk is broken because he can infinite dimensional cape"
*Cam*
Smash Lord
Yes, I agree with you to some extent. However, the problem comes with defining planking in tangible terms. URC defined it with a ledge grab limit, but Metaknights found ways around that. We can't just say "I'll know it when I see it" if we are setting rules. Is planking for ten seconds banned? What if they aren't trying to stall out the match but waiting for a better position? We are dealing with fuzzy boundaries, which leaves too much room for the TO to judge it based on other factors. That's why I think stalling shouldn't be banned.
theONEjanitor
Smash Champion
if you cape glitch for 5 seconds to wait for a better position, is that/should that be banned?
*Cam*
Smash Lord
theONEjanitor
Smash Champion
4GODDDD your character is stupid but you're a nice guy so good ****
yeah i live in southside serin.
and i wasnt the one that was saying that metaknight's planking was ruining the game, that was luis.
and i think that the planking thing is actually the ONLY possibly feasible reason why mk could be banned. or at least somewhat logical one. that and you can argue that he breaks the counterpick system (boo hoo) but like luis always insists, just pic up another character if you have a problem with something (like the stage in this case). and i dont think someone should be whining about the fact that metaknight isn't just largely plain out horrible and you wont be able to GUARANTEE yourself a WIN in a COMPETITIVE environment in the first place either.
why do you think he should be banned kevin?
and i wasnt the one that was saying that metaknight's planking was ruining the game, that was luis.
and i think that the planking thing is actually the ONLY possibly feasible reason why mk could be banned. or at least somewhat logical one. that and you can argue that he breaks the counterpick system (boo hoo) but like luis always insists, just pic up another character if you have a problem with something (like the stage in this case). and i dont think someone should be whining about the fact that metaknight isn't just largely plain out horrible and you wont be able to GUARANTEE yourself a WIN in a COMPETITIVE environment in the first place either.
why do you think he should be banned kevin?
theONEjanitor
Smash Champion
like I've said, i think its scrubby to ban a character because "he's too good", but I do think Metaknight is "too good", and I also think this game is too dumb and because of how convoluted and counter-intuitive the mechanics are, it's not really that competitive unless you really change a lot of stuff and throw in a lot of random rules (which we've done obv) and one of those changes may have to be 'banning metaknight', when the entire metagame of a game revolves around playing and beating one single character that's obviously ********. but meh whevs i stopped taking the smash games seriously as competitive games a long time ago. I just play it because its fun at this point.
BSL
B-B-B-BLAMM!!!
Meta game
meta knight
Obv.
meta knight
Obv.
i dont see any changes in the metagame without meta knight being there, though. what changes so significantly? theres nothing its just something people like to say. brawl mechanics dont change with metaknight banned lol
imo its just a personal preference and nothing more. its definitely not competitive in nature. especially if the ultimate answer is "maybe" we can get away with banning this character.
imo its just a personal preference and nothing more. its definitely not competitive in nature. especially if the ultimate answer is "maybe" we can get away with banning this character.
BSL
B-B-B-BLAMM!!!
without metaknight, the metagame is gone. it's just a regular game at that point.