• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

After the SDCC tournament yesterday... I'm having doubts Smash 4 will be a good competitive game.

The Slayer

RAWR!
Joined
Apr 16, 2007
Messages
1,239
Location
New World
NNID
Ren
3DS FC
1778-9825-9960
You toss around the term "subjective" like it's some kind of debate trump card. You sound like every other forum warrior who took a class in critical thinking. It's alright for some issues to be subjective. You might have even noticed that my first post was expressing MY feelings on the direction of the series. So yes... that is subjective. Congratulations. However, you may have also noticed that a lot of people agreed with me. The changes made to the mechanics of the games that have lead to the disappointment of veteran fans like myself are tangible and observable. No amount of misrepresentation on your end can convince us otherwise. Most of the defenders of the new iterations are relatively new players (you joined in 2011, for instance). The fact that there are very few veteran players who support the direction of the series speaks volumes. So you can go on and tell me that it's a matter of preference, and it's all subjective, but mark my words: if the game's demo build is any indication, 5 years from now we'll be watching Melee at EVO, not Smash 4. I find that as disappointing as anyone.

I'm done here. We're boring everyone on this board to tears. Good night and good luck.
If you're gonna ragequit with a comment like this, it's probably not the best idea to use passive-aggressive remarks with ageism in the mix. Doesn't make you sound too agreeable. Also, there's still a lot of people that played 64, Melee and Brawl for a long time and without looking at this board till just recently. Are we going to judge them along with the newer crowd by the same fashion if Smash 4 comes out and (a what if) doesn't work out well? It's just not something you would say if you're not going to be productive about it.
 
Last edited:

Saikyoshi

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 26, 2014
Messages
3,921
Location
Being petty
NNID
KarmaPilcrow
3DS FC
0344-9771-0514
What does the registration date of members have anything to do with their experience of Smash?
The fact that it's 2011 (while Brawl was still fighting, before Melee's "platinum age", before SSB4 was announced, before P:M even existed in the modern sense) is a mild indication. If it was 2013 or 2014 I'd be skeptical, but 2011 hints that Brawl was their first game played.
 
Last edited:

pickle962

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
1,337
Location
Louisiana
You toss around the term "subjective" like it's some kind of debate trump card. You sound like every other forum warrior who took a class in critical thinking. It's alright for some issues to be subjective. You might have even noticed that my first post was expressing MY feelings on the direction of the series. So yes... that is subjective. Congratulations. However, you may have also noticed that a lot of people agreed with me. The changes made to the mechanics of the games that have lead to the disappointment of veteran fans like myself are tangible and observable. No amount of misrepresentation on your end can convince us otherwise. Most of the defenders of the new iterations are relatively new players (you joined in 2011, for instance). The fact that there are very few veteran players who support the direction of the series speaks volumes. So you can go on and tell me that it's a matter of preference, and it's all subjective, but mark my words: if the game's demo build is any indication, 5 years from now we'll be watching Melee at EVO, not Smash 4. I find that as disappointing as anyone.

I'm done here. We're boring everyone on this board to tears. Good night and good luck.
So people who joined the forums with in the last three or so years doesn't mean a thing to you when it comes to debate huh? You think that anyone [x] amount of years your junior is automatically in the wrong if they DARE try to call you out on your arguments or criticize what you have to say in your posts. People agreeing with you on the internet doesn't mean jack buddy. You dissenters are still a minority at the end of the day. Oh and acting like a DEMO using an outdated build will be proof that Smash 4 will somehow crash and burn just like Brawl did on the competitive scene is just LAUGHABLE. The 3DS version of smash 4 will probably be a bit more on the casual side, but its a handheld so its expected in the fighting genre of video games. The Wii U version, however has the benefit of time on its side since its scheduled for a later release date AFTER the handheld version has been out for a while.

If you honestly believe NOTHING AT ALL is going to change between E3 and when specifically the Wii U version of Smash 4 launches, you are in for a HUGE surprise friend. Sakurai may be the mastermind behind Smash 4, but if Nintendo (who went OUT OF THIER WAY to support the competitive side of smash at least here in the States with the invitational tournament AS WELL as take copious notes on what the competitive community would like to see added/changed in the final version) tells him to implement our suggestions, well tough **** for him! Nintendo is still higher than he is in the business hierarchy! Believe what you want to believe, just make sure you and other cynical posters on this thread don't let the door hit your butt when you go ;)
 
Last edited:

Saikyoshi

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 26, 2014
Messages
3,921
Location
Being petty
NNID
KarmaPilcrow
3DS FC
0344-9771-0514
So people who joined the forums with in the last three or so years doesn't mean a thing to you when it comes to debate huh? You think that anyone [x] amount of years your junior is automatically in the wrong if they DARE try to call you out on your arguments or criticize what you have to say in your posts. People agreeing with you on the internet doesn't mean jack buddy for no matter how aggressively we push the competitive scene of smash, we are STILL a minority and that goes for other fighting games with a competitive scene, even Street Fighter! Oh and acting like a DEMO using an outdated build will be proof that Smash 4 will somehow crash and burn just like Brawl did on the competitive scene is just LAUGHABLE. The 3DS version of smash 4 will probably be a bit more on the casual side, but its a handheld so its expected in the fighting genre of video games. The Wii U version, however has the benefit of time on its side since its scheduled for a later release date AFTER the handheld version has been out for a while.

If you honestly believe NOTHING AT ALL is going to change between E3 and when specifically the Wii U version of Smash 4 launches, you are in for a HUGE surprise friend. Sakurai may be the mastermind behind Smash 4, but if Nintendo (who went OUT OF THIER WAY to support the competitive side of smash at least here in the States with the invitational tournament AS WELL as take copious notes on what the competitive community would like to see added/changed in the final version) tells him to implement our suggestions, well tough **** for him! Nintendo is still higher than he is in the business hierarchy! Believe what you want to believe, just make sure you and other cynical posters on this thread don't let the door hit your butt when you go ;)
You forget that Sora Ltd. is an entirely separate company from Nintendo. He, as the highest power at Sora Ltd., really has no obligation to listen to anyone from Nintendo at all.
 
Last edited:

pickle962

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
1,337
Location
Louisiana
You forget that Sora Ltd. is an entirely separate company from Nintendo. He, as the highest power at Sora Ltd., really has no obligation to listen to anyone from Nintendo at all.
That may be true, but this is a game using mostly Nintendo properties and Nintendo's been around for decades whereas Sakurai's crew hasn't even been around FOR a decade, so in terms of seniority/company hierarchy, Nintendo's still higher than Sora Ltd. and if Nintendo wants Smash 4 to incorporate suggestions/feedback from the E3 build, Sakurai would be wise NOT to ignore a company who's IP's he's using to make a crossover fighting game. ;)
 
Last edited:
D

Deleted member

Guest
You forget that Sora Ltd. is an entirely separate company from Nintendo. He, as the highest power at Sora Ltd., really has no obligation to listen to anyone from Nintendo at all.
Then what was the point of gathering people's opinions and feedback on the game at E3? Just to laugh at their concerns and how they'll never be acknowledged?
 

Mr. KoopaTurtle

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 3, 2014
Messages
1,075
Location
Bowser's Castle
NNID
gamedude101
3DS FC
0344-9381-8375
The fact that it's 2011 (while Brawl was still fighting, before Melee's "platinum age", before SSB4 was announced, before P:M even existed in the modern sense) is a mild indication. If it was 2013 or 2014 I'd be skeptical, but 2011 hints that Brawl was their first game played.
I still fail to see your point. Just because they joined around the Brawl days doesn't mean they played Brawl first. That just sounds like wild assumptions.
 

pizzapie7

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
531
Warning Received
damn that's an awful lot of salt. why you gotta make us look bad like this man?

well this thread is gone now lol

and lol @ me getting infracted for calling a bull**** argument bull****
 
Last edited:

RascalTheCharizard

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
987
Then what was the point of gathering people's opinions and feedback on the game at E3? Just to laugh at their concerns and how they'll never be acknowledged?
Because they care? Just cause Sakurai has control of the game doesn't mean that Nintendo of America can't gauge public opinion.
 
Last edited:
D

Deleted member

Guest
Because they care? Just cause Sakurai has control of the game doesn't mean that Nintendo of America can't gauge public opinion.
But in that case it's not even going to reach Sakurai, and even if it does he wouldn't care. It would make the point of gathering feedback completely null, other than the fact that it shows that they care.
Do you really think there was enough time to implement those changes and balance accordingly?
It's not impossible, sure they wouldn't be able to implement everything, but at least some of it could possibly get in. Besides, if they actually were collecting feedback to send to Sakurai about changes that could be made, what would be the point in collecting it if there was nothing that could be done? Plus, the E3 build was reportedly and older version, so a lot could've been changed in the time frame as well.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

RascalTheCharizard

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
987
But in that case it's not even going to reach Sakurai, and even if it does he wouldn't care. It would make the point of gathering feedback completely null, other than the fact that it shows that they care.
Which is what some people have been worried about for some time now.
 
Last edited:

pickle962

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
1,337
Location
Louisiana
Do you really think there was enough time to implement those changes and balance accordingly?
The build used for the E3 demo was proven to be an outdated one dating as far back as around late March early April, so there should be PLENTY of time to adjust the overall gameplay and balance accordingly ;)
 

LancerStaff

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
8,118
Location
Buried under 990+ weapons
3DS FC
1504-5709-4054
The build used for the E3 demo was proven to be an outdated one dating as far back as around late March early April, so there should be PLENTY of time to adjust the overall gameplay and balance accordingly ;)
That's not what I was getting at. My point is that they did not have any time to implement our requested changes and balance accordingly.

But in that case it's not even going to reach Sakurai, and even if it does he wouldn't care. It would make the point of gathering feedback completely null, other than the fact that it shows that they care.

It's not impossible, sure they wouldn't be able to implement everything, but at least some of it could possibly get in. Besides, if they actually were collecting feedback to send to Sakurai about changes that could be made, what would be the point in collecting it if there was nothing that could be done? Plus, the E3 build was reportedly and older version, so a lot could've been changed in the time frame as well.
The feedback was likely just market research, or a ruse to give people false hope. Like Reggie's "slip" on Metroid awhile back or how they're "planning" new Metroids.
 
Last edited:

D-idara

Banned via Administration
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
3,240
Location
Venezuela
NNID
D-idara
3DS FC
4511-0670-4622
it has it's moments, where, say... you are trying to use a jab combo (mash A) very close to the edge, you opponent shields and thsi makes you slide off the edge.

if you have a long, laggy nair like, say, Wolf... dead.
It's not like PM and Melee don't have some bull**** moments, even though not with buffering.
 

pickle962

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
1,337
Location
Louisiana
The feedback was likely just market research, or a ruse to give people false hope. Like Reggie's "slip" on Metroid awhile back or how they're "planning" new Metroids.
Wow...you cynics insane troll logic on an unfinished project sure involves lots of straw grasping huh? If Nintendo STILL didn't give two ****s about the competitive community, they would have had their way with last years EVO, not bothered to hold a tournament at this years E3 while also taking notes on what players want in the final build, and most importantly, Sakurai wouldn't have bothered (most likely) with making strides towards extending an olive branch to competitive community by offering a "for glory" option in online, remove stupid mechanics like tripping and little to no hitstun PERIOD, and WAY too defensive gameplay that made Brawl suffer immensely on the competitive scene, etc.
 

HeavyLobster

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 7, 2014
Messages
2,074
NNID
HeavyLobster43
It's perfectly fine and understandable to express frustration and disappointment when a series you love takes away the elements that caused you to fall in love with the series in the first place. I have to admit there are elements from Melee I'd like to see return that probably won't. But it isn't okay to say that a game can't or shouldn't be played at a high level or is "uncompetitive" simply because it isn't your cup of tea, or trash players of said game simply because you don't like it.

If you can point to any broken mechanics or balance issues in the final product that lead you to believe that the game won't be competitively successful, you can point them out. But the reality is that I have yet to see any hard evidence of anything comparable to Brawl chaingrabs, or Meta Knight planking, or random tripping, or any of the balance problems Brawl suffered from. If you want to call Smash 4 objectively uncompetitive, you should highlight specific mechanics and explain why you believe they will lead to balance problems that negatively affect this game. Try to avoid injecting personal preferences with regards to things like pace and "feel." To the OP's credit, he actually did make this kind of argument, stating that he felt shields are too strong because they drop faster, and this could lead to an excessively defensive game. While there are certainly objections that can be raised against this argument, such as shields being easier to break, it's a fair argument, and might turn out to be true, though there's no guarantee that it will. Unfortunately, it's too common to see people writing off the game as having any competitive worth for anyone based either on speculation or personal preference, which is entirely unfair to the game and its player base. You don't have to pretend to like or be excited about the new game, but there's no need to keep bringing up the same old Melee vs. Brawl arguments and the vitriol associated with them.
 
D

Deleted member 245254

Guest
Warning Received
You toss around the term "subjective" like it's some kind of debate trump card. You sound like every other forum warrior who took a class in critical thinking. It's alright for some issues to be subjective. You might have even noticed that my first post was expressing MY feelings on the direction of the series. So yes... that is subjective. Congratulations. However, you may have also noticed that a lot of people agreed with me. The changes made to the mechanics of the games that have lead to the disappointment of veteran fans like myself are tangible and observable. No amount of misrepresentation on your end can convince us otherwise. Most of the defenders of the new iterations are relatively new players (you joined in 2011, for instance). The fact that there are very few veteran players who support the direction of the series speaks volumes. So you can go on and tell me that it's a matter of preference, and it's all subjective, but mark my words: if the game's demo build is any indication, 5 years from now we'll be watching Melee at EVO, not Smash 4. I find that as disappointing as anyone.

I'm done here. We're boring everyone on this board to tears. Good night and good luck.
Thank you for reminding us all exactly what a raving Melee-inbred actually looks like.

I'll be honest. I respect peoples desire to be salty over the loss of advanced techniques. While I do not mourn the loss of things like Wavedashing or L-cancelling (rather, I celebrate it), I understand completely the fondness for the existence of those techniques. I understand, on a psychological level, why people want those techniques in.

It's a simple matter of personal disagreement, and to be honest we are all wasting our finger strength trying to type out giant walls of text that emphatically prove without shadow of any doubt that any one way to do it is better than the other...

Where I believe it becomes a bit difficult to sit back on the sidelines, is where people make blatantly asinine statements of no real value that are both false, unsupported by any evidence, or just plain trolling. Smash 4 is Brawl 2.0? The game will fail because it refuses to re-add Wavedashing and l-cancelling and or remove all traces of aerial landing drawbacks? They are such sweepingly ignorant comments that are hard to ignore because it can spread. Many like to parrot that of others more vocal, and soon we have a gigantic community of nitwits saying Smash 4 is Brawl 2.0 when anyone who has actually played the game extensively and even in tournament conditions has stated otherwise.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

LancerStaff

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
8,118
Location
Buried under 990+ weapons
3DS FC
1504-5709-4054
Wow...you cynics insane troll logic on an unfinished project sure involves lots of straw grasping huh? If Nintendo STILL didn't give two ****s about the competitive community, they would have had their way with last years EVO, not bothered to hold a tournament at this years E3 while also taking notes on what players want in the final build, and most importantly, Sakurai wouldn't have bothered (most likely) with making strides towards extending an olive branch to competitive community by offering a "for glory" option in online, remove stupid mechanics like tripping and little to no hitstun PERIOD, and WAY too defensive gameplay that made Brawl suffer immensely on the competitive scene, etc.
You need to settle down there, you're jumping to some major conclusions. I fully believe Sakurai is trying to please the competitive community, but I just don't see how it's possible to implement these, almost certainly misguided, ideas and balance accordingly in the time that was remaining. After all, the demo is definitely from a few months ago. These changes likely clash with what's been implemented since the demo was made.
 
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
8,377
Location
Long Beach,California
Thank you for reminding us all exactly what a raving Melee-inbred actually looks like.

I'll be honest. I respect peoples desire to be salty over the loss of advanced techniques. While I do not mourn the loss of things like Wavedashing or L-cancelling (rather, I celebrate it), I understand completely the fondness for the existence of those techniques. I understand, on a psychological level, why people want those techniques in.

It's a simple matter of personal disagreement, and to be honest we are all wasting our finger strength trying to type out giant walls of text that emphatically prove without shadow of any doubt that any one way to do it is better than the other...

Where I believe it becomes a bit difficult to sit back on the sidelines, is where people make blatantly asinine statements of no real value that are both false, unsupported by any evidence, or just plain trolling. Smash 4 is Brawl 2.0? The game will fail because it refuses to re-add Wavedashing and l-cancelling and or remove all traces of aerial landing drawbacks? They are such sweepingly ignorant comments that are hard to ignore because it can spread. Many like to parrot that of others more vocal, and soon we have a gigantic community of nitwits saying Smash 4 is Brawl 2.0 when anyone who has actually played the game extensively and even in tournament conditions has stated otherwise.
You know you aren't any better than him right? You literally came here and did what I expected someone as egocentric as yourself to do, jump down someone's throat per verbatim and not contribute anything in the conversation then to persecute someone's opinion. Not only that, you have done so after everyone had already mentioned how biased it sounds, even the Melee supporters. So if your goal was to beat a dead horse, then Bravo.

Calling someone an inbred? You could literally replace "Melee " with any other community (yes, even Brawl) and the impact would remain the same, because you are basing his rational on the game he plays, when you could have just as easily made your point without sounding like some condescending prep school student.

You speak of people making asinine comments, but what exactly are you contributing?--I mean besides making yourself look like one of the many other stereotypes plaguing this forum? Personally, I feel the only thing you can do is criticize, because anyone who believes that a Melee player will dean this game as a lesser competitive because of a lack of Wavedashing (which by the way, isn't nearly as useful as wavelanding ) and L-Canceling just shows that you lack the fundamental knowledge of the game to criticize anyone's opinions, as there is much more to the game than that.

Why don't you just leave, man? You have suggested nil towards how the game can possibly be improved, instead you insinuate that the game is perfect, anyone who disagrees with these notions are Melee elitist, and Melee players are scum. I've been playing both games competitively for the past 8 years, and I'm sure many have played both, so technically I am a Brawl player, and my preference of Melee in know way shape or form negates the validity of my statements, or anyone else's.

Get over yourself.
 
Last edited:

Cassio

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
3,185
lol, thanks for the support guys. And this isnt my first account, I actually joined in 2007 and was lurking since '05, lol. Also my first game played was 64. Pika was broken in that game so its obv my favorite.

In regards to that post, all Ill say is like others said I respect the right of people to not enjoy the game if the mechanics dont suit their taste. But there are plenty of people who will enjoy the game too, if not as their favorite then at least as something that provides a different flavor. And its not just going to be new players. I think overswarm put it best:

"He wasn't asking you to blindly accept the new game. He was asking you to taste the food and, if you don't like it, leave the restaurant without flipping a table due to your disappointment."
 
Last edited:

Rich Homie Quan

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 15, 2014
Messages
887
Sheesh, no chill in this thread.

I think the game will have a flourishing competitive scene. If the Melee base doesn't find anything to like in it, so be it. Other people pick up the controller and compete because they find something else in the game that makes it competitively viable for that crowd.
 

Vkrm

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
Messages
1,194
Location
Las Vegas
"He wasn't asking you to blindly accept the new game. He was asking you to taste the food and, if you don't like it, leave the restaurant without flipping a table due to your disappointment."
But this isn't what we ordered.
 

Senario

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 1, 2013
Messages
699
lol, thanks for the support guys. And this isnt my first account, I actually joined in 2007 and was lurking since '05, lol. Also my first game played was 64. Pika was broken in that game so its obv my favorite.

In regards to that post, all Ill say is like others said I respect the right of people to not enjoy the game if the mechanics dont suit their taste. But there are plenty of people who will enjoy the game too, if not as their favorite then at least as something that provides a different flavor. And its not just going to be new players. I think overswarm put it best:

"He wasn't asking you to blindly accept the new game. He was asking you to taste the food and, if you don't like it, leave the restaurant without flipping a table due to your disappointment."
Psst, Pikachu is still broken in Melee :p I kid I kid, but axe is awesome. I did not know you could do that kind of stuff with Pikachu. Definitely rose up a few tiers in my head to at the very least mid tier(much like Yoshi thanks to Amsa, who doesn't love that guy).
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
But this isn't what we ordered.
Except you haven't gotten the food yet. Maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't, you can't really judge until the waiter brings it to your table.
 

Senario

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 1, 2013
Messages
699
It's a sample.
I dunno he got ya there lol. A sample is a sample. I do hope that they took the input from the players at E3 seriously, I find it improbable that they just took input for marketing reasons but not entirely impossible.
 

Ryuutakeshi

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Messages
1,553
Location
Fireguard
How are we still arguing this topic? If Brawl is competitive and Melee is conpetitive and the dinosaur that is 64 is competitive even today, why on earth do you guys think it won't be competitive? Maybe it won't be good by your standards (I think there's enough evidence suggesting this is not the case) but I guarentee that some group out of the 12+ million potential sales is going to make this game competitive.

Answer: It will be. This is Smash.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
How are we still arguing this topic? If Brawl is competitive and Melee is conpetitive and the dinosaur that is 64 is competitive even today, why on earth do you guys think it won't be competitive? Maybe it won't be good by your standards (I think there's enough evidence suggesting this is not the case) but I guarentee that some group out of the 12+ million potential sales is going to make this game competitive.

Answer: It will be. This is Smash.
Yeah. There's no reason for it to not be competitve. It's Smash Bros., after all.
 

Cassio

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
3,185
But this isn't what we ordered.
Just dont flip the table!!
Psst, Pikachu is still broken in Melee :p I kid I kid, but axe is awesome. I did not know you could do that kind of stuff with Pikachu. Definitely rose up a few tiers in my head to at the very least mid tier(much like Yoshi thanks to Amsa, who doesn't love that guy).
Slight bit of a tangent, but yeah Axe got me back into melee. I stopped mostly bc I wanted to use pika, but he was considered bad and as a novice player I just thought thats how it was going to be. Also even though I'm in the BBR and am fine with smash 4 mechanics some melee players might not like, for the past year I've played competitive melee significantly more and am fairly good at it thanks to a lot of fundamentals I learned from Brawl. 64 I think has a lot to do with nostalgia too.
 
Last edited:

Senario

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 1, 2013
Messages
699
Just dont flip the table!!

Slight bit of a tangent, but yeah Axe got me back into melee. I stopped mostly bc I wanted to use pika, but he was considered bad and as a novice player I just thought thats how it was going to be. Also even though I'm in the BBR and am fine with smash 4 mechanics some melee players might not like, for the past year I've played competitive melee significantly more and am fairly good at it thanks to a lot of fundamentals I learned from Brawl. 64 I think has a lot to do with nostalgia too.
Still a pretty solid game in 64 though. I loved playing falcon at the time and to a lesser extent Ness.
 

Vkrm

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
Messages
1,194
Location
Las Vegas
Except you haven't gotten the food yet. Maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't, you can't really judge until the waiter brings it to your table.
this doesn't have anything to do with the smash 4 demo. This is about how the melee community handled the release of brawl. But I guess there's no way you could know that unless you posted in the thread where OS said that.
 

Ogre_Deity_Link

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 9, 2007
Messages
1,445
Location
Central New York
this doesn't have anything to do with the smash 4 demo. This is about how the melee community handled the release of brawl. But I guess there's no way you could know that unless you posted in the thread where OS said that.
Doesn't mean the advice doesn't work for this as well.
 

JabbatheHutt

The Kingpin of the Outer Rim
Joined
Jun 16, 2013
Messages
1,249
Location
Tatooine
Let's put things into perspective:

If you have a child, do you automatically assume once he's born he can't read because his brain hasn't fully developed?

Or will you let the child grow and see that he can, indeed, learn how to read?

This is my counter to this.
 
Last edited:

Bread-Butterer

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Messages
757
Location
Toronto, Canada
Hahahaha.. I come back here and it's like I shot someone's dog. Yes, pointing to someone's registration date wasn't a logical way of assessing their actual community involvement/game history, but I didn't intend it as an insult in the first place. I was making a pretty reasonable claim that people who started the series with Brawl are more likely to be accepting of that engine, and less knowledgeable about the older versions. I also think they look at Melee and 64 fans and imagine a bunch of stuck up elitists demanding that in order for the game to be respectable, it requires the mastery of a bunch of redundant, difficult techniques. Though that's not the point I was making (or many others that I see), it's the message, and image, that has prevailed over the years. In any case, all of this leads to a bit of cognitive dissonance. People have poured a lot of time and emotional energy into these games. I understand this. When that's the case, the last thing you want is to be told it wasn't a good game, or that it's competitively uninteresting. They have heard these things a lot, and it makes people defensive when any improvements are suggested or shortcomings noted. Having said that, can we really view Brawl as a complete competitive success when it's now being pushed into the background by an 11 year old entry from the same series? I think the concerns players have for Smash 4 are well founded.

The game will be released soon, and all of our questions will be answered. I'm going to buy it on 3DS, and maybe for my Wii U if I'm impressed, and I'm sure I'll enjoy it on one level or another. Having said that, I think anyone expecting major changes from the current build should temper expectations. That's a bit far fetched.
 

HugS™

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
1,486
Location
DBR
I read a bunch of this, and I just want to clarify that I played Brawl competitively for 2 years. My preference for Melee does not equate to inexperience with Brawl. I simply did not prefer it.

Now, I don't claim to be omnipotent, nor am I perfect in my predictions. However, I form these brash opinions based on facts about the game's mechanics, guided by my understanding about how competitive smash works. If I know as much as anyone else about the game's mechanics, fine. But I am able to formulate a prediction based on these mechanics in a way that less experienced players cannot.

In Brawl, some of my predictions were as follows:
I quit Samus in Brawl within 1 month of the game's release because I felt she had no potential. People assured me that I did not yet understand the potential mechanics of the game, and that my experience with her in Melee didn't mean anything in Brawl. I believe she ended up being in the bottom 5 of the whole cast.

I mentioned that ROB was a pretty bad character and that he would continue to drop on the tier list. People pointed to examples of ROBs succeeding, adding that it was me, not the character. The results for ROB began to vanish, and ROB gradually dropped on the list.

I finally quit Brawl altogether because I felt the game was too shallow, that it lacked consistency in results due to various mechanics promoting guessing over actual control over outcomes. I felt it would not continue to succeed due to the degenerative nature of the game. That is, I felt that limitations on options would lead to clear, one dimensional optimization, which would degenerate the gameplay. In retrospect, I think this was a huge contributor to the decline in the game's attendance numbers, and its overall success.

Now, I said I form my opinions based on the mechanics of the game, guided by my knowledge on competitive smash.
Fact: aerials lag.
Prediction: As competitive players optimize their style, shield grabs will be the norm counter as they will be extremely easy to perform. I see the game degenerating to ground approaches, and aerials being used for follow ups instead. I also see character selections degenerating to those who have aerial options, as landing lag is not consistent across the board, and some characters will have heavy advantages.
Proposed solutions: L canceling or lagless aerials. This is a solution not because it's more like Melee, but because it actually solves the problem in my prediction.

Fact: ground mobility is far more limited than it is in Melee.
Prediction: If it's hard enough for a character in Melee to approach by ground, I imagine a grounded approach in Smash 4 will be far more predictable. As such, an optimized player will begin to take a defensive approach on the ground, rather than to risk losing the neutral game by approaching themselves with limited mixup options. However, as long as there are mixup options, the ground game won't be too bad. It will just be slow and limited, (the brawl problem). I can see specific character traits salvaging this part of the gameplay, but I don't think a character should solve a gameplay problem, as this leads to heavy character centralization (again, another Brawl problem).
Proposed solution: Dash dancing, wavedashing, or other forms of movement options. I love the fact that pivot tilts remain in the game, however, an option to reposition without attacking would also be great. I don't need Melee specific movement options, I just need more options.

So anyway, I don't say that the game has problems because it's not like Melee. That's way off, and it's an easy way to discredit my opinion based on my game preference.

I simply did not enjoy competitive Brawl because it had problems, the same problems I am seeing in Smash 4. If you think the term "problem" is too subjective here, let me know how Brawl is doing right now.
 
Last edited:

Bladeviper

Smash Ace
Joined
May 20, 2014
Messages
870
NNID
Bladeviper
I read a bunch of this, and I just want to clarify that I played Brawl competitively for 2 years. My preference for Melee does not equate to inexperience with Brawl. I simply did not prefer it.

Now, I don't claim to be omnipotent, nor am I perfect in my predictions. However, I form these brash opinions based on facts about the game's mechanics, guided by my understanding about how competitive smash works. If I know as much as anyone else about the game's mechanics, fine. But I am able to formulate a prediction based on these mechanics in a way that less experienced players cannot.

In Brawl, some of my predictions were as follows:
I quit Samus in Brawl within 1 month of the game's release because I felt she had no potential. People assured me that I did not yet understand the potential mechanics of the game, and that my experience with her in Melee didn't mean anything in Brawl. I believe she ended up being in the bottom 5 of the whole cast.

I mentioned that ROB was a pretty bad character and that he would continue to drop on the tier list. People pointed to examples of ROBs succeeding, adding that it was me, not the character. The results for ROB began to vanish, and ROB gradually dropped on the list.

I finally quit Brawl altogether because I felt the game was too shallow, that it lacked consistency in results due to various mechanics promoting guessing over actual control over outcomes. I felt it would not continue to succeed due to the degenerative nature of the game. That is, I felt that limitations on options would lead to clear, one dimensional optimization, which would degenerate the gameplay. In retrospect, I think this was a huge contributor to the decline in the game's attendance numbers, and its overall success.

Now, I said I form my opinions based on the mechanics of the game, guided by my knowledge on competitive smash.
Fact: aerials lag.
Prediction: As competitive players optimize their style, shield grabs will be the norm counter as they will be extremely easy to perform. I see the game degenerating to ground approaches, and aerials being used for follow ups instead. I also see character selections degenerating to those who have aerial options, as landing lag is not consistent across the board, and some characters will have heavy advantages.
Proposed solutions: L canceling or lagless aerials. This is a solution not because it's more like Melee, but because it actually solves the problem in my prediction.

Fact: ground mobility is far more limited than it is in Melee.
Prediction: If it's hard enough for a character in Melee to approach by ground, I imagine a grounded approach in Smash 4 will be far more predictable. As such, an optimized player will begin to take a defensive approach on the ground, rather than to risk losing the neutral game by approaching themselves with limited mixup options. However, as long as there are mixup options, the ground game won't be too bad. It will just be slow and limited, (the brawl problem). I can see specific character traits salvaging this part of the gameplay, but I don't think a character should solve a gameplay problem, as this leads to heavy character centralization (again, another Brawl problem).
Proposed solution: Dash dancing, wavedashing, or other forms of movement options. I love the fact that pivot tilts remain in the game, however, an option to reposition without attacking would also be great. I don't need Melee specific movement options, I just need more options.

So anyway, I don't say that the game has problems because it's not like Melee. That's way off, and it's an easy way to discredit my opinion based on my game preference.

I simply did not enjoy competitive Brawl because it had problems, the same problems I am seeing in Smash 4. If you think the term "problem" is too subjective here, let me know how Brawl is doing right now.
i may not agree with everything but good post, on a side note there is dash dancing in the game, its just not the same as before but it is there and it might be character specific now since ive only seen it done with 2 characters i think. Also as for other movement options i agree there should be more but we can't say there are not any ether. The demo we got from e3 was at least 4 to 5 months old and we also had limited time with it and we did not find all the movement options in melee within a similar time frame, it took a while.



Hahahaha.. I come back here and it's like I shot someone's dog. Yes, pointing to someone's registration date wasn't a logical way of assessing their actual community involvement/game history, but I didn't intend it as an insult in the first place. I was making a pretty reasonable claim that people who started the series with Brawl are more likely to be accepting of that engine, and less knowledgeable about the older versions. I also think they look at Melee and 64 fans and imagine a bunch of stuck up elitists demanding that in order for the game to be respectable, it requires the mastery of a bunch of redundant, difficult techniques. Though that's not the point I was making (or many others that I see), it's the message, and image, that has prevailed over the years. In any case, all of this leads to a bit of cognitive dissonance. People have poured a lot of time and emotional energy into these games. I understand this. When that's the case, the last thing you want is to be told it wasn't a good game, or that it's competitively uninteresting. They have heard these things a lot, and it makes people defensive when any improvements are suggested or shortcomings noted. Having said that, can we really view Brawl as a complete competitive success when it's now being pushed into the background by an 11 year old entry from the same series? I think the concerns players have for Smash 4 are well founded.

The game will be released soon, and all of our questions will be answered. I'm going to buy it on 3DS, and maybe for my Wii U if I'm impressed, and I'm sure I'll enjoy it on one level or another. Having said that, I think anyone expecting major changes from the current build should temper expectations. That's a bit far fetched.
i don't think anything major with change but things like landing lag will, because i think they are using the lag as a way to balance the characters in a more major fashion this time around imo
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom