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After the SDCC tournament yesterday... I'm having doubts Smash 4 will be a good competitive game.

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Nintendo's financial issues were reported back in January.

Pretty sure any issues with selling WiiU's is improving with Mario Kart 8. Smash 4, Hyrule Warriors and such are gonna make this less of an issue.
 

Thirdkoopa

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Well this thread is something. I haven't read through the entire thread, but I would like to inject some new light onto SamuraiPanda's post: Is it possible that the speed of the game combined with the hits able to do on shields, will make it so that defensive play is not as favored as it seems right now? Brawl's reasons on rewarding defensive play may like in other aspects than just the changes (Not that I disagree with that sentiment)

We've definitely had some 1v1 samples. While camping doesn't look that viable, there is fear out there of defending defense too much.

I wish we could get comparisons and all rolling in here better. It's a shame we haven't had many chances to just test this game compared to other smash games.
 

The Slayer

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I think this is an interesting discussion point actually, if casualising a game to make it appeal to a more general audience actually helped move units, why did Brawl only sell 4 million more copies on a system that sold way more than the gamecube?

Surely it should have been doing Mario Kart numbers if a casual party game is what people wanted out of smash?
But you have to remember. The Wii was a lot more successful than Gamecube in terms of sales. So it's a given more Brawl units were sold than Melee units.
 

XStarWarriorX

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The fact that it's 2011 (while Brawl was still fighting, before Melee's "platinum age", before SSB4 was announced, before P:M even existed in the modern sense) is a mild indication. If it was 2013 or 2014 I'd be skeptical, but 2011 hints that Brawl was their first game played.
Yeah no, join date to a forum doesn't mean ****.

I've played 64 first and followed the game competitively with each installment with my step sis ever since then, i'm not gonna join a forum with random ass people when i'm like 13, and other people probably understand this. Just cause someone joins in post 2008 doesn't mean that brawl was their first game, sorry but that kinda annoyed me.


Anyway, again toward the topic. If this game has combo's it will live, it may be a side event because no tech skill, but it will live. If not, and its an HD brawl (which i doubt) then yeah, its fate will be the same as brawl, only that it'll have a longer lifespan, cause hype.

But again, this is really pessimistic thinking. this wont be a melee or a brawl, it'll be its own game, like i said it'll probably survive and be a side event at worst. And this is from someone who prefers melee/PM's depth. This game will probably live if it gets some basic combos and stuff like that. It might not be the most aggro paced smash but if it has better combo strings then what brawl had, then it'll survive. I still say the game needs more testing and hands on stuff, then the community will decide what to do from there.

I for one will attempt to play this game competitively just like all the others. Though i hope its not another brawl, i want the game to be at least rewarding somehow.
 

TTTTTsd

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Yeah I feel like this game is gonna click with me only because you're genuinely REWARDED for hitting someone. That and they removed some of the things that made Brawl campy, with (possibly) reduced shields, increased movement speeds to be like Melee, real hitstun. I think these three in combination really change the game more than even I can imagine by the time I get my hands on it.
 

JoeInky

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But you have to remember. The Wii was a lot more successful than Gamecube in terms of sales. So it's a given more Brawl units were sold than Melee units.
What I was trying to say was if that casualising the game does open it up to a larger audience, as someone else theorised, wouldn't that mean that Brawl would have had a larger jump than only 4-5 million, considering the massive increase in install base and the fact that it was aimed more towards the new customer base than the previous game would have been.


I mean, the gamecube sold 22 million units, Melee sold 7. The wii sold 101 million, yet Brawl only sold 12.
 

Clavaat

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Yeah it's more of a kind of better situation.

Still they aren't in the hole like Sony and Capcom are.
$92 million in the hole isn't great. I don't know what Sony's looking like, though. Either way, I was just posting updated info on that front, as it got brought up here.

Coming from the FFXIV community, I'm sure there is a lot of pressure on Sm4sh being successful and thus Nintendo bouncing back. Square Enix was in the same situation and FFXIV:ARR ended up completely turning the profits around. The game is insanely different than 1.0. It's also a lot better.

That's one of the reasons I have strong faith in Sm4sh.
 

The Slayer

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$92 million in the hole isn't great. I don't know what Sony's looking like, though. Either way, I was just posting updated info on that front, as it got brought up here.

Coming from the FFXIV community, I'm sure there is a lot of pressure on Sm4sh being successful and thus Nintendo bouncing back. Square Enix was in the same situation and FFXIV:ARR ended up completely turning the profits around. The game is insanely different than 1.0. It's also a lot better.

That's one of the reasons I have strong faith in Sm4sh.
Yeah, my friend was quite infuriated when she bought their collector's edition and was given this "game" in return. But now she's reaping pretty good Veteran Rewards now. Heck, even got me hooked on.

Aside from that, $92 million isn't great either of course. But if this year keeps doing well, they'll probably jump back into profit mode again.
 

Cassio

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Nintendos Wii U didnt do as well as Nintendo wanted, but theyre such a conservative company financially that theyre sitting very pretty (along with the 3DS success). Sony is actually doing a lot worse off as a company overall.


Anyways, food for thought-

Sakurai on innovation
"Is there any industry that relies so much on reusing and reusing their old titles as much as video games?" he asked. "Compared to other media like movies, dramas, animation, novels and comics, the glut of franchises and remakes is at an unnatural level."

Why is this? In part, Sakurai wrote, it's inherent in the nature of the media. "You have to learn the rules of a game before you can play, and that presents hurdles from the very start," he said. "That's why you have a generally unified approach to control methods between titles, and you can usually play one by taking what you already know and adding a feature or two to it — X means jump, Square means attack, and so on."

Sakurai took pains in the column to show that he's not criticizing big-name titles for being successful, but he sees the need for an alternative as well

"Good games attract fans, and if you have fans, you have an advantage," he wrote. "You try to use that to make the title something bigger, but that doesn't mean it's okay to give up on innovation. Popular, well-made games deserve praise, but titles that have some kind of unique creative spark to them also need to be praised in this way. That's what the judges are trying to do here, and it won't work if it was just popular majority vote. That would lead to people just voting on names and past performances."
http://www.polygon.com/2013/10/9/48...cizes-the-unnatural-amount-of-remakes-and-old


Sakurai on camping (I referenced this earlier)
A Smash Bros fan recently wrote in to Smash Bros producer Masahiro Sakurai to explain that he was no longer enjoying playing Smash Bros Brawl online due to his competitors tactics. Here’s what he wrote: “The other day, I had my first run at Smash Bros. Brawl online play. What I found was that nobody ever went on the attack; it was like everyone was taking the approach of waiting for the other guy to take the offensive. There were no items, either. I wanted to shout at them ‘This isn’t how you do Smash Bros.’! As the producer, what do you think of fights like this?”

Sakurai responded with the following: “The idea of Brawl’s ‘carefree brawling’ motto was to get rid of as many restraints as possible and allow people to choose whatever play approach they liked,” he wrote. “I’d like people to take some freer approaches with their gameplay, but the sort of battle style you describe in your letter is not interesting or fun. That’s why I’ll probably be thinking of a way to deal with that in the next game. We’ve learned a lot about net play since Brawl was released, after all, so a lot more is possible. I suppose the fact that we’ve still got no-fee online battles available in a game that was released five years ago is another cause of the problem. It would have been nice if we could have revised the game rules as appropriate, but with the system we had, that wasn’t possible.”
http://mynintendonews.com/2013/03/1...-bros-brawl-online-isnt-thrilling-any-longer/
 
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Saikyoshi

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Nintendos Wii U didnt do as well as Nintendo wanted, but theyre such a conservative company financially that theyre sitting very pretty (along with the 3DS success). Sony is actually doing a lot worse off as a company overall.


Anyways, food for thought-

Sakurai on innovation

http://www.polygon.com/2013/10/9/48...cizes-the-unnatural-amount-of-remakes-and-old


Sakurai on camping (I referenced this earlier)

http://mynintendonews.com/2013/03/1...-bros-brawl-online-isnt-thrilling-any-longer/
Well, at least now I know he hates overly-defensive play as much as the rest of us.
 

Senario

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Well, at least now I know he hates overly-defensive play as much as the rest of us.
We also know he hates no items lol. His statement about the whole thing feels like opinion though I guess the upside is he doesn't like defensive play. Feels like the player who messaged him was salty though lol, hey if I subject myself to playing against a better player of brawl I would plain lose and deserve to lose. I don't practice that game.
 
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HeavyLobster

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Well, at least now I know he hates overly-defensive play as much as the rest of us.
Which is one of the reasons I am optimistic that he is actually interested in getting some competitive feedback. I think he realizes that Brawl had some broken mechanics that made it less enjoyable for both competitive and casual players, and wants outside help in order to find problems with the existing build and make a better game. As far as his quest for randomness to make the game "interesting," he appears to be trying to accomplish this via side modes such as Smash Run instead of force-feeding us random tripping or some other nonsense in the main mode. He certainly seems more accommodating to competitive players this go around, even if they aren't his primary focus.
 

Shorts

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>Doubting it will be good competitively

Hi there, welcome to Smash bros!
 

infomon

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It looked like shield's were reduced or broken quite quickly in smash4 as well, so I think it's hard to conjecture much about how well shields are balanced vs. other options as yet.

Edit: This point is well-covered by this thread, so I have contributed nothing of value.
 
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Amazing Ampharos

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We also know he hates no items lol. His statement about the whole thing feels like opinion though I guess the upside is he doesn't like defensive play. Feels like the player who messaged him was salty though lol, hey if I subject myself to playing against a better player of brawl I would plain lose and deserve to lose. I don't practice that game.
Sakurai didn't say he hates no items. The guy interviewing him said that, and Sakurai said he was going to deal with the situation of the not interesting or fun battle style.
 

Xiaphas

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One nice thing about this next game being on Wii U is that if the shield mechanics are causing balance issues, the game can be patched. I’ll be disappointed if only a handful of characters are competitive regardless of the relative offensive/defensiveness of the gameplay. From what I’ve seen so far, it seems more entertaining than brawl to watch.
 

THT Shadow

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The game looks fine in a casual point of view but i dont see Smash 4 going far in competative if not change a little i do agreed with all you said and defensive style is looking very strong in this game its just a more polish version of brawl nothing to it..(imma get so much hate now)
 

JabbatheHutt

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Why is this of all threads advertized on the fb page?
Is this really that important of an Opinion?
 

JabbatheHutt

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It's more so for the discussion going on me thinks.

A lot of things on both sides. Still I'm not a fan of the super negative opinions thus far.
Ya its just the negativity in it is throwing me off. Still read through it.
Good popcorn thread. i love drama.
 

LancerStaff

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I won't call Brawl uncompetitive. I just don't personally prefer it, largely because I despise the business decisions behind its development.

It may be competitive. But it was intentionally designed not to be. It's the intention that I have a serious problem with. You just don't spontaneously decide that 20-40% of your audience should go die in a hole. You just don't.

tl;dr: Most detractors hate it for gameplay reasons. I hate it for ethical reasons.
Not 40, not 20, not 5, but 1%. Just compare the number of Smashboards members to Smash's sales. Yes, that doesn't take everything into account, but that'd just bring that number lower.

What I was trying to say was if that casualising the game does open it up to a larger audience, as someone else theorised, wouldn't that mean that Brawl would have had a larger jump than only 4-5 million, considering the massive increase in install base and the fact that it was aimed more towards the new customer base than the previous game would have been.


I mean, the gamecube sold 22 million units, Melee sold 7. The wii sold 101 million, yet Brawl only sold 12.
Not necessarily, no. And only 1% of Melee veterans (as in, every single person who had Melee before Brawl) actually cared about the changes. Add in the fact that the game appeals to gamers while the Wii system appeals to nongamers, and it's pretty obvious that rating sales by comparing it to the systems sales won't give an accurate number. Melee wasn't more liked then Brawl, and most competitive players bought Brawl anyway. And Melee certainly didn't sell as well as it did because of mechanics.
 

pizzapie7

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I feel like most people here aren't - legit reasons or not. It's rather depressing.
Well I mean what do you expect? You're on the forum home of the competitive Smash community, a community that was extremely let down from Brawl. This thread isn't totally negative, I think is shares the reserved approach that most players tend to have. Just watching to see how bad (or good maybe!) the game is going to be.

The funny thing is that I've heard from fighting game players who told me that "if Capcom butchered an SF title like Nintendo butchered Brawl" people wouldn't even consider giving them a second chance. No idea if that's really true or not, but it does put things into perspective. Brawl has at least merited some caution for Melee fans, don't you think?
 

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Not 40, not 20, not 5, but 1%. Just compare the number of Smashboards members to Smash's sales. Yes, that doesn't take everything into account, but that'd just bring that number lower.



Not necessarily, no. And only 1% of Melee veterans (as in, every single person who had Melee before Brawl) actually cared about the changes. Add in the fact that the game appeals to gamers while the Wii system appeals to nongamers, and it's pretty obvious that rating sales by comparing it to the systems sales won't give an accurate number. Melee wasn't more liked then Brawl, and most competitive players bought Brawl anyway. And Melee certainly didn't sell as well as it did because of mechanics.
70% of all online matches were Final Destination with no items. 70%. Of matches that allowed anyone. So a far larger number than 1% were at least trying to be competitive.
 
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LancerStaff

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70% of all online matches were Final Destination with no items. 70%. Of matches that allowed anyone. So a far larger number than 1% were at least trying to be competitive.
FD =/= competitive. FD doesn't have any hazards to get in the way of lag. Items get turned off, again, because they're mostly a hindrance with lag. And if these people really wanted to be competitive, they'd probably join Smashboards and look for FCs instead of fighting MKs that IDC or dealing with Temple and taunt spamers.
 

GLStephen

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70% of all online matches were Final Destination with no items. 70%. Of matches that allowed anyone. So a far larger number than 1% were at least trying to be competitive.
This post bothered me so much I had to make an account to reply to it.

Let's say for a second that competitive players play on final destination all the time, which they obviously don't. This stat in no way proves or even implies what you stated. This is a breakdown of matches, not players. Some players play more matches than others. You know who plays the most matches? Competitive players or players who are trying to become competitive. This is probably even more true of online play, given that most casual players treat Smash as a party game that they play with friends in the same room. The casual players are also more likely to abandon a games online play earlier than competitive players (this is certainly the case in most online games, at least), so in the years that Brawl's online multiplayer was active, it would have become more and more heavily skewed towards people trying to play competitively.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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It's more so for the discussion going on me thinks.

A lot of things on both sides. Still I'm not a fan of the super negative opinions thus far.
I believe the best we can do is be the change we want to see in the community. I really do believe in the potential of smash 4 to be the cornerstone of the new greatest era in the smash community. When people post claims about how bad smash 4 is, I try to use my experiences with the demo to paint a sunnier picture (man, that demo was awesome!). It's not always easy with my natural personality type, but I do always try to be as optimistic about the future as possible. I believe the negativity will die down as the reality of what's before us hits, and I believe that if those of us who enjoy the game project positivity instead of more negative defensiveness, that festering negativity that over the course of five long years ate away Brawl will be repelled and the whole community will win so big for it.
 

TTTTTsd

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The funny thing is that I've heard from fighting game players who told me that "if Capcom butchered an SF title like Nintendo butchered Brawl" people wouldn't even consider giving them a second chance. No idea if that's really true or not
I think the existance of SF X Tekken and the fact that people still bought into Ultra despite it being released AFTER SF X Tekken makes this kinda moot, although Ultra is more of an expansion pack. Still, even SF has its bad games. There was even an example before this, Super Street Fighter 2. This was the game that came right before Super Turbo, and it removed the Turbo option.....yeahhh, Super Turbo got released shortly after and was much better received.[/quote]
 
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