Advice needed vs. Falco (Mango v Raynex Rom2)

[RaynEX]

This has always been my worst match-up. (Granted, I've never done as well vs. Falcos in general as I did at RoM2)

Sometimes I feel like slowing down and being more patient would help me land more hits. When I try that, lasers pin me down and I can't move AT ALL. When I try to get airborne or just clear out some room Falco jumps on/at me with dair or something and I get outprioritized all the time. Maybe I'm just moving the wrong ways and making the wrong decisions before I approach? I think the hardest part in smash is knowing what to do in between the fighting. When you are at max or mid range, both vying for a hit. GAH I hate Falco.

Any and all advice would be very appreciated.

Mango vs. Raynex:

Match 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZwVzCYHhv0

Match 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWo3kucUr7E


Before I forget...

I cped Pokemon Stadium because its my favourite neutral, and honestly I didn't know where to take Falco. I know how match-ups work and what stages I should be using, but Yoshis was a bit iffy Match 1 and I'm not too comfortable on FoD. Bigger stages I'd just get outcamped on...right? What I'm trying to say is, cp stage advice would be awesome too. Thanks Fox boards!

 

[unknown522]

matchup's stupid, but you'll hear how "fox beats falco".

Mango needs more laser, then the matches wouldn't be close.

Anyways, I can't give advice because I got ***** by falco too.

You need to finish your combos with u-smash when you can and not try to extend them when not needed.

 

[CanISmash]

i'm on the same boat.

one thing i think i learned was to sotp being so afraid of getting hit by one laser.

e.g. walking through 3 lasers and taking damage and getting close enough to shine/ f-tilt nd edge guard / grab / etc.

cps? no idea. yoshi works imo. dreamland i dont feel like you can get outcamped because its hard to control the entire stage with lasers and you can more easily maneuver around them with platforms.

 

[cykofox]

from what i saw he just read what you were gonna do better than you reading him.

 

[nyc_tag$]

You did madd good versus one of the best falcos in the world so i don't think you need help, but i'll tell you what fox needs to do in this matchup. . .

At low percentages falco is gonna be ccing all of your hits into shine, so you're gonna want to drill shine a lot. At later percentages you can start nair shining. Try to bait him towards the edge and get low percentages shine spikes since he's like the easiest character to shine off the stage

Remember to camp platforms if they're there because this lets you get the drill shine easier and it lets you avoid his gay lasers.

Also something that I got from col bol, try to get a uair on him while he's pressuring you. At low percentages this pops him up into an upsmash.

That's about all I can think of off the top of my head. Hope it helps buddy

EDIT: **** almost forgot, counter pick final destination or pokemon stadium vs falco, whichever he doesn't ban. m2k once said falco counters fox on any stage besides fd because fox can cg falco on fd... and you're madd good at comboing out of up throw so you should do pretty **** good

 

[Blistering Speed]

i'm on the same boat.

Doing flips and ****?

Also, considering you were there I'll ask you Raynex, are the johns legit? Or did Mang0 just straight get outplayed by Kage?

 

[RaynEX]

SPeed: Mango convincingly beat everyone he played in brackets - except Kage. It was a little bit of him being hung over and Kage playing like a champ + a huge crowd on Kage's side. **** happens and Kage just happened to pull it out.

Thanks Tag$.

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

Like tag said, platforms are very in your favor. Key to getting out of his laser game, and good for maneuverability.

Also, i wouldn't ledge hop and hope he jumps into it. Like, you ledge hopped a dair game one, and it got you killed. Falco will just space away from the edge. Only do that if you KNOW it's going to hit, otherwise you get screwed.

Combos. I would NOT finish a combo with a move that hits him into the air above the stage unless it's the only thing worth hitting with, or it'll kill him. 90% of the time finishing with a bair is a much better option. Ie you tried to combo a uair to another uair on yoshi's.

a) he SDIed it(or you just missed) which means you basically didn't have a finisher. Even if he didn't intentionally get out of it, the possibility remains. Even if you had hit with both hits, it would be a falco above the stage with his jump...and a dair. Way to many ways to get down against a fox. Where as a bair would put him off the stage for a potential edge guard. Still not a great position since he'll DI and probably make it back with a jump, but about the best you could do. I guess maybe you were going for a third uair after that one, which would have killed, but i think the risk outweighs the benefits. That's two chances for him to SDI, and he got it on the first one.

Also why the usmash out of shield? Like, I understand that if it hit it would be nice, but again, too risky. Mango especially is not going to mess up his shield pressure, and a usmash will not hit out of that.

If possible, grabs are amazing against falco, but i'm not to sure how to go about getting them. You really just have to punish him if he slips up during shield pressure, or misses an fsmash or something. Getting a falco knocked down onto a platform above you is amazing, it's really easy to just nab a tech chase bair.

If anything, fox plays exactly like marth in this matchup. uthrow to stuff, get him off the edge and gimp him, and knock him onto platforms. The only difference being you DON'T want him above you without being lnocked down or in some kind of hitstun. Being above falco is the way to go. The only thing he can really use if you're above him is utilt, so it becomes predictable.

edit: something i noticed game two. when you threw him onto a platform, you immediately went for a nair without pausing. he teched and you went through him. If you see that falco is going to land on a platform, DONT hope that he is going to miss the tech and go for him, wait, and respond. Also don't do what alot of people do, which is uthrow and then uair if the falco is going to hit a platform. It doesn't work if the falco techs, which a good one will. I think old school is the best style. Uthrow dair. If they miss the tech, it dair resets. If they tech in place, the ending hit hits them, and you can grab. If they tech left or right, you can follow and grab. Alot of people will point out that this can be DIed to fall off the platform, but you can just do it when they land in the middle, or make sure whichever way you are facing is in towards the platform. Or move will jumping so that they only get hit by a couple hits. About the only thing they can do is smash DI up to stop the reset, but most people won't get this in the hit of the moment. I would say though, overall, mango is not going to miss techs, and you should wait and time your aerial.

Though i wrote a whole lot, most of what you did wrong were small specific things, and overall you played the match well. i think it was mostly just that despite how good you are, he's still mango, and both that and the fact that you feel this is a bad matchup for you are just stressful and a mental block. Practice a bunch against falcos, do well, get used to playing them. You may not necessarily learn anything new, but you will play more confidently. Also, remember next time you're playing mango, he CAN be beat, he's not invincible, just very very very good. Doesn't mean you have zero chance. You yourself are very very good. Nab an extra very by playing confidently and you got this.

edit: I just realized i wrote a wall of fox advice to player who has seen me in one video where I whined like a little *****.

 

[ChivalRuse]

edit: I just realized i wrote a wall of fox advice to player who has seen me in one video where I whined like a little *****.

Hahahahahaha.

 

[Eggm]

I felt like you have a good understanding of the matchup and did pretty good. Mango's execution was just better. You got nearly as many initial hits as him but his punishes and edge guarding and just overall execution of his tech skill seemed more on point than yours.

 

[AprilShaw]

I cped Pokemon Stadium because its my favourite neutral, and honestly I didn't know where to take Falco. I know how match-ups work and what stages I should be using, but Yoshis was a bit iffy Match 1 and I'm not too comfortable on FoD. Bigger stages I'd just get outcamped on...right? What I'm trying to say is, cp stage advice would be awesome too. Thanks Fox boards!

Obviously, seeing as we played and how terribly I did and all, you are much better than me but I hope I can help a bit. From personal experience I'd say you should CP, most importantly, a stage you are comfortable on but secondly a stage where you have room to run around. I don't know what other Foxes/Falcos think but I love taking Fox to FoD (as Falco) purely because it really hurts his platform camping game. I don't really camp as much as I should as Falco though, so maybe others like to go to big stages. Personally though I feel like Dreamland and FD are your best neutrals against Falco, FD simply because upthrow combos/CGs can destroy Falco there and DL64 because your platform game is much more solid than Falco's laser game.

Second piece of advice I'd give is get Falco off the stage anytime you can. ChRed kinda covered this already, but to expand on that, offstage you can limit Falco to just a few options. Then one guess is a stock, so you only have to make 4 good guesses. Honestly getting him off the stage is often better than racking up more damage in my opinion, so if say you grab him by the edge I'd fthrow him off instead of upthrow -> combo (well, upthrow bair if you think he won't DI inside is amazing). If you get used to doing up angled and down angled ftilts, they **** Falco's recovery when he's about even with the stage or above it going for a sweet spot. If he goes high, back air, if he's low, shine spike. If he comes right at you you can jab, but if he goes for the top of your head like Mango likes to do then up angled ftilt will work better.

Hope this helps, but remember that I kinda suck so obviously don't take it to heart

EDIT: Oh yeah, I wouldn't try to out-tech-skill a good Falco. I'd focus on movement mostly, it's one area you have a huge advantage over Falco in.

 

[Smilez]

For the most part you seemed solid against Mango's Falco.(which says alot) IMO you should concentrate on the mistakes/bad decisions that got you in a position to lose stocks. For example: Dair off the ledge at end of 1st match & 2:26 in 2nd match. Technically I agree with Red on the point that you don't want to finish your combos w/ Uair, I feel Bair is better in that it leaves you in a better position than have Falco above you.(ie: Gimp) Your fox is Beast don't beat yourself up too much over the loss. Just make sure you learn from you mistakes a move forward. You've obviously taken steps to do just that by making this thread.

 

[JPOBS]

Also why the usmash out of shield? Like, I understand that if it hit it would be nice, but again, too risky. Mango especially is not going to mess up his shield pressure, and a usmash will not hit out of that.

just throwing it out there, im about 99% sure that upsmash OoS actually has the frame advantage vs sheild pressure even when the falco is doign everything right.

so if you're really good at timing/adjustign to the falco's pressure style you can beat him out of sheild pressure. i remember asking mogwai about it and he said its actually legit.

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

no, it's the same as a shield grab. you can do it if you guess when they're going to time the dair. ie if the falco shorthops and immediately dairs you would have to wait until being hit by it to usmash. so again, it's a guessing game, and 50% is not good odds imo.

 

[unknown522]

Bernard's so good that it's hard for anyone to give him advice.

I agree with SW's post. Try to avoid putting yourself in bad situations. You'll have to figure it out for yourself though.

 

[Sizzle]

On your second stock he kills you when jump off the ledge. In the third stock you die the exact same way. Both times it was two ledgehops and then a jump and Mango bair'd. Not sure if that helps, but I've been trying to watch Foxes ledge game lately, so that caught my attention.

 

[PB&J]

shine out of shield destroys falco's pressure..besides that what tag said and come back to the south

 

[SpaceFalcon]

Do what I do when I play falcos with fox.

Get frusterated and sandbag with other characters =)

really though; it's just to easy for falco to land an auto 50% combo. I know there are many things fox can do around this. When it comes down to it, falco is just an easier character. And Fox has to play his character better. But the end results will pay off.

 

[G U R U]

That was one of the best falco vs fox sets I've ever seen Raynex. So don't be too discouraged. You guys both played flawlessly. Mango just won out in the end.

 

[PB&J]

im tired of people saying falco is an eaier character..fox can do so much stuff to falco . its ridiculous..people need to just play more falco's or something..and i wasnt referring to u raynex


yeah i know falco is annoting , but all u have to do is annoy him back and u win..make him jump when he doesnt want to jump.. make him shield when he doesnt..etc

 

[unknown522]

On your second stock he kills you when jump off the ledge. In the third stock you die the exact same way. Both times it was two ledgehops and then a jump and Mango bair'd. Not sure if that helps, but I've been trying to watch Foxes ledge game lately, so that caught my attention.

every time that he did a ledge jump, it was meant to be a ledge WD, since you get complete invincibility from it. He just messed up.

I mess it up sometimes too.

 

[`DNS`]

When you get falco offstage, he should die, no exceptions... It IS Mango, & I'm not saying I would've done better

I was going to say to try platform waveland after you uthrow him from below a platform, but then you did it at match 2 3:10
2:47 was pretty hot in that match

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