Advancing the Mewtwo Meta Game

[ChivalRuse]

Well, all pivots are 1 frame leniencies, so I kind of expected that.

 

[Sieghart]

Here is an image by kadano that could help with learning it.

edit: Keep in mind it is a frame perfect technique in that you can't spend more than one frame in the smashturn region, so don't expect to pick it up overnight. (unless you are just good with your fingers I guess)

This image. This image right here... it's perfect. This is all the guide you could ever need. I learned pivot dtilt while I was mained Roy and it would seem it's the future of M2 as well, which is actually really good for my training regimen. It's not really that hard once you understand it imo.

Personally, I just find it funny that little ol' me can multishine at least more than half as well as Westballz ( which, it would seem, is more than most can say) and pivot dtilt consistently yet I can honestly say I'm complete crap at this game. Not sure if it's beginner's luck or the fact that I'm learning it early in my smash career but I just wanted to put it out there that I can personally do it well, only after a week of practice at most mind you, so you guys that are obviously WAY better than me just need to buckle down and do it.

 

[MookieRah]

So I'm tackling the above tech by breaking it down. I tried doing the run to diagonal input and couldn't get it a single time, even in 1/4th. So instead of working on that aspect, I've decided to learn the last two steps first. The turnaround diagonal to crouch input with a dtilt. So basicly, instant turnaround dtilts. From there I'm working on walking forward, instant turnaround dtilts.

Not only is this a much better way to get the muscle memory down, it also allows me to see my progression. It also helps to be able to do instant turnaround dtilts from standing or walking. I'd recommend others to do this as well, because the alternative is basically a crapshoot, at least it feels that way to me right now.

 

[SuperShus]

woah this is actually really cool, once I understood what it means to be able to pivot dtilt... I will learn to do this when I return to the US. This will be the only thing I practice lol. Can this be done with utilts the same way, say, for Fox, Marth?

 

[MookieRah]

I would imagine so, but it'd be harder to pull off due to the risk of jumping. Also, right now I'm able to do psuedo-pivot dtilt both forward and backwards. It's basically just being able to input a dtilt almost immediately after a fox-trot. This is also quite useful stuff. It would be easy to transition from psuedo-pivots to pivots once I get the tech down, and until then I will have more control over my character than I did before trying all this stuff.

 

[ChivalRuse]

It just occurred to me how hard this tech is. Welp, time to start practicing.

 

[Sieghart]

So I'm tackling the above tech by breaking it down. I tried doing the run to diagonal input and couldn't get it a single time, even in 1/4th.

You probably just misspoke but I wanted to point out that you should be doing it out of dash, not run. Just in case you were making a silly mistake or something. If you can get the instant dtilt turn down like you say you shouldn't be far off from normal pivot dtilt. Have you tried again yet?

woah this is actually really cool, once I understood what it means to be able to pivot dtilt... I will learn to do this when I return to the US. This will be the only thing I practice lol. Can this be done with utilts the same way, say, for Fox, Marth?

Yeah, and it's not really too hard at all as long as you spend a fair amount of time practicing the actual pivot motion rather than simply pivot dtilt. I can do it consistently and like I said before I'm a scrub. I said this somewhere on the Roy boards but imo pivot dtilt is as hard as it gets then utilt and ftilt in that order. If you're one of those people who ignored utilt before that might make it harder but completely doable imo.

 

[SuperShus]

What if I want to pivot dtilt the way I'm facing, like you do pivot fsmash with dash forward, back on the control stick then cstick in the original direction you dashed... but tilts cant be done with cstick. I don't suppose I'll have to dash forward dash back then pivot. Because using this on approach would be so lovely. <3

 

[Comet7]

i'm pretty sure you would have to either do another dash or empty pivot and instant down tilt. i know you would have to spend 2 frames in dash at the minimum but idk how long turning around is. i'd imagine either could work depending on where you would want to put the down tilt (idk much about this since i don't use mewtwo).

<3 pivots, i'm trying to incorporate them into my pichu and fox.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Guys, I know I'm probably going to be flamed like crazy for posting this, but couldn't there be some potential to using grounded confusion out of dash dance in a similar fashion to a dash dance grab? The "grab-box" of confusion covers as high up as Mewtwo's height and extends very far in front of him. In addition, the window for catching the opponent is 2 frames longer than an actual grab (4 frames vs 2 frames on a grab). I know that the startup is 5 frames slower than a grab, but given the range on confusion, this seems amply compensated for.

The only weakness that I see with this idea is that confusion has so much lag afterward that it can be baited out quite conveniently if the opponent runs forward but wavedashes back.

 

[Sieghart]

What if I want to pivot dtilt the way I'm facing, like you do pivot fsmash with dash forward, back on the control stick then cstick in the original direction you dashed... but tilts cant be done with cstick. I don't suppose I'll have to dash forward dash back then pivot. Because using this on approach would be so lovely. <3

As far as I know the only way to do it is as you suggested. That's how i do it at least. Practicing dash dance into pivot tilts makes it pretty intuitive and if we're being honest, probably what we should be aiming for in the first place.

 

[MookieRah]

The psuedo-method I use involves dashing forward, letting the stick reset and then entering the diagonal down > crouch > dtilt. This isn't a pivot, as it just allows you to dtilt after a foxtrot (otherwise you have to wait several frames or you will dash attack). It's still quite good though, as it Is a different spacing than a wavedssh, and probably a little faster.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[Sieghart]

I've found that between pivot dtilts, dash dancing, and moonwalking M2 has some pretty entertaining (not sure on the threat level because this is all in the lab and I'm not very good regardless) ground movement.

 

[Comet7]

On approaching pivot dtilts: Only fsmash can be done in the opposite direction of a pivot. (so inputting an ftilt during the turn animation will ust give you a pivot jab, for example) In order to approach with dtilt, you will have to dash forward, dash back very briefly (ideally 1 frame), then pivot dtilt. If you are frame perfect, there will be three frames between dashing forward and the beginning of the dtilt animation. Keep in mind, Mewtwo's dash doesn't cover much space so you can likely achieve much the same results being a little less than frame perfect.

if you dash back for only one frame you will pivot, jsyk. it would have to be two frames for minimal dash distance.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[ihasabuket]

edit: Actually, there *might* be a zone where you can input utilt but not jump but that sounds hella precise and probably easier to just perform the pivot utilts the way I described above.

There is. Kadano's input maps show that the uptilt and jump zones dont even overlap

 

[MookieRah]

So I've been talking about a pseudo pivot thing for a few posts here now, but I've fleshed it out and posted about it on the Marth boards:
http://smashboards.com/threads/psuedo-pivots.405407/

Sieghart was awesome and kind enough to record it here:

I think this is useful and something we should discuss.

A recap of the marth boards stuff:
This is a way to enter the run animation sooner, allowing for run canceled attacks earlier.

You do this by inputing a dash, let the stick reset to neutral, input another dash after a slight delay (puts you in run animation), and run cancel.

The minimum distance covered is longer than a wavedash, and it may be faster than using a wavedash (for Marth)

You can extend it a bit by dashing for longer, you can delay the second dash input for quite a while.

 

[IdkLmao]

Edit- Wow, all of those suggestions I had are already being covered. Sorry about that guys. I'll get caught up on mewtwo and get back to you guys if I find anything new. Great thread idea by the way.

 

[ihasabuket]

So I've been talking about a pseudo pivot thing for a few posts here now, but I've fleshed it out and posted about it on the Marth boards:
http://smashboards.com/threads/psuedo-pivots.405407/

I think this is useful and something we should discuss.

A recap of the marth boards stuff:
This is a way to enter the run animation sooner, allowing for run canceled attacks earlier.

You do this by inputing a dash, let the stick reset to neutral, input another dash after a slight delay (puts you in run animation), and run cancel.

The minimum distance covered is longer than a wavedash, and it may be faster than using a wavedash (for Marth)

You can extend it a bit by dashing for longer, you can delay the second dash input for quite a while.

This needs a name. I dont really like calling it a pseudo pivot since youre not turning in any sort of way, it's misleading.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[tauKhan]

Quick explanation of run mechanics - At any point past frame X of a character's dash animation (18 for Mewtwo, 15 for Marth, etc), a forward input causes your character to transition into run.

It's a bit more complicated than that, since there's also a part of dash after the run window, where you can instead dash forward again. This dashing forward out of dash was 'foxtrotting' back in the day.

The foxtrot windows are also very different between characters, with marth you can start running between 16-20, and you can dash forward between 21-27.

Here's a full list of the windows and options for all characters: http://smashboards.com/threads/2014...nowledge-updated-1-2-14.339520/#post-16153183

 

[MookieRah]

After some more back and forth with tauKhan on the Marth thread (in retrospect, I probably should have waited to post here till all this was clarified there) tauKhan simply called it a slow dash into a run cancel. So, just referring to it as slow dashing would be good enough.

In any case, what it boils down to is flexibility versus speed. Slow Dashing allows you to react to spacing and/or attacks, while a dash > wavedash allows you to get to where you want to be faster. Also, in the context of a match, it wouldn't be hard to determine which is better, so I think it wouldn't take long for people to incorporate into their game.

 

[SuperShus]

So does 'slow dashing' allow me to get a dtilt out faster than run cancelling after a dash - or just closer?

Is it faster than shallow wd dtilt?

 

[MookieRah]

Apparently, no. Slow dashing into a run takes the same amount of time as dashing normally into run. The difference is that it allows you to use run cancelling at shorter distances. It's very comparable to wavedash lengths in this case, as wavedashing the maximum length requires the same amount of downtime as wavedashing in place.

Also, the video linked shows the minimum distance required for Mewtwo to slow dash to run cancel. It isn't comparable to a shallow wd as it travels a distance farther than a wavedash. It's more comparable to a dash > wavedash than anything else.

 

[IdkLmao]

I wonder if its possible to have enough reaction flexibility with mewtwos fastest movement options from training. That way you don't have to use the slow dash to catch your breath and react to them as much.

 

[MookieRah]

The only way to keep your options at max speed would be to pivot or vanilla run cancel everything. I'll be the first one to tell you that it is unlikely that you can rely on your execution to pull that off consistently. Slow dashing, by comparison, is incredibly easy and intuitive. As long as you don't have to be super fast, it's a more consistent and safe option. It takes less brain power to pull off and has simple inputs that don't tie up your hands as much. In neutral, I would think it's superior in most cases than trying to pivot everything.

 

[SuperShus]

As a Fox main your words do not phase me.

Yet... I feel like I should be phased.

I'm not sure it does anything walk, wd, or dash doesn't already do, but it's neat for sure.

 

[ChivalRuse]

You remain unfazed.

 

[MookieRah]

Well, as a Marth main I can see how it's helpful. I haven't thought about how it would apply to Fox, but for Marth this is definitely a nifty thing. For M2 it's also nifty, but just not as nifty as it is for Marth.

In other news, it's getting easier and easier to actually do pivot dtilts. Sieghart is right, once you get a feel for it, it doesn't seem that daunting. That said, my consistency is about 25% (8 successes out of 30 attempts). I'm starting to think it's possible to get a good consistency with time. Something to note, it makes it easier once you have a feel for the timing and the motion to then practice doing just the quarter circle motion from standing as quickly as possible. One of my big problems with this is that I don't actually press the control stick far enough to trigger the turn around in the pivot, and this is good for correcting that.

An aside to the above: I feel as if my success rate is higher when I input the A (to perform the dtilt) than if I simply made the quarter circle motion. Is this just in my head, or does that input actually affect whether or not the pivot works? Logically, it makes no sense that this would affect anything, cause you should pivot and crouch, but yeah, it's worth asking.

 

[SuperShus]

Well I meant because my techskill is pretty good.
It might be nice in floaty matchups for falco who can have trouble getting a kill move on floaties.

For mewtwo I think it's pretty invaluable. I can't wait to practice it.

 

[MookieRah]

Everyone should be working on these too:
http://smashboards.com/threads/undiscovered-aerial-interrupts.382946/

The guy even says it's fairly easy as far as these techniques go. I haven't tried it myself though, haven't had the time yet. If this is something that is humanly possible to have a near 100% consistency with, Mewtwo would be the king of the ledge. He can control it and stall safely with Sunc, as well as get back on the stage from the ledge for free.

That's not even mentioning the teleport shenanigans with platforms from the ledge that are highly under-utilised.

 

[SuperShus]

I super agree with you, I said a few pages ago that I really wanted to get those down once someone else posted that.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Aerial interrupts seem incredible useful for DJC characters.

 

[MookieRah]

I went back and read that section, as well as all that negative stuff. Obviously, M2 rarely wins neutral, unless he is up against a character that is more or less grounded (and not Marth or Shiek (damn needles)), but he has the tools to prevent himself from getting cornered when his opponent has stage control, and with what I just mentioned regarding being the king of the ledge, it means he will get away with **** absolutely, 100% free.

Yeah, people will ****ing hate you if you just stall with Sunc until they let you waltz back on stage or until they position themselves to get hit by one of your invincible AI tilts, but they can go suck a bag of *****. You are playing goddamn M2 and they can get over it. By using all of M2's tricks you can, you can to a certain extent pick and choose your engagements. Yeah, you would lose neutral in a general sense, but if you can set it up to your advantage a lot of the time then you can still win the neutral more often than your opponent. Although, I guess that wouldn't be winning neutral because you would only engage when you have some sort of positional advantage, but you know what I'm saying.

It would still be an uphill battle, but not as much of one as people think.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Is teleport out of shield strictly better than roll for getting back to center stage? I know that you want to rematerialize as close to the ground as possible to minimize lag. But I feel like you can still be hit while in midair.

 

[MookieRah]

In most cases no, due to the 8 (I think it's 8, going off of memory here) frames of vulnerability before you teleport.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I've noticed Taj uses it a lot though. Maybe it's just to bait/throw off his opponents.

 

[SuperShus]

I think it's because people aren't conditioned to watch for teleport out of shield like they are for roll, which takes up processing time in the opponents brain. I don't see him do it on the AZmelee stream vs his friends, nor do I see him use sh disable there.

You can tell what are gimmcks and what aren't by what he does and doesn't do vs Axe/Medz

 

[MookieRah]

I wouldn't even recommend it when you are styling on someone. 8 frames is just giving your opponent an unwarranted opportunity.