Advancing the Mewtwo Meta Game

[M-Tude]

Yeah dude, I know it's a melee overall technique, hence the falcon video about it. And of course fox's nair is still faster than handlebar lemon drop turnaround whatever, the point though, is that it's stylish and confusing. This is a ganon thing, that utilizing perfect WL and such makes your movement more unpredictable, which makes fox more scared to throw out his ultra-good nairs, even though he could just stuff ganon a good part of the time. Look at how Bizzaro flame has gotten so good even though he doesn't play as optimally as some ganons do, he just gets better esults because he scares people more. M2 needs to utuliize the same kind of movement to make people unsure of what you can and can't do, even if you know that m2's options are garbage. If you can make them give you space and respect through agrressive and tricky movement, then you can start to play M2s game. It's the same idea as playing with marth, really, you just have worse options, lol.

You probably know all this, but I'm just repeating my case for why I think that incorporating new age movement techs is important. M2's mindgames are really all he has going for him, but people seemed convinced that he has untapped potential, so make them believe you have some tricks up your sleeve.

Dude, you seem pretty depressed about this character, i'm just trying to say i think you can get this character a higher rep than he has, and maybe even have some fun styling on people too.

 

[SuperShus]

I've always wanted to have a good mewtwo, but it's sad to think how much you need to outplay your opponent to win. To out neutral and out punish.

I think he'd be much more fun as a pub stomper than as your best character. That's why Taj has a godlike marth. It's great to pull him out for when you don't know the matchup, because then you both don't know the matchup.

I don't want to give up on training mewtwo, but I doubt there's really much useful tech left to discover with him.

I can't really say much until i go back to the us and get a controller under my fingers again, but I really don't see mewtwo having any real favorable matchups. Perhaps I'll make a thread where we can try and pick out all of mewtwos favorable and even matchups. I think that would be good for the community - like a confidence booster.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[ChivalRuse]

"Jump" stuff in general is bad with Mewtwo because of his low priority in the air when the opponent is on the ground.

I do have one question: is a low djc fair on shield safe, or can it be easily shield grabbed?

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah djc fair seems like a good way to convert on reads. I guess not so good at shield pressure though.

 

[BRUJO~]

Luckily the momentum from a dump doesn't come from the dash it's input on the frame before the frame you leave the ground so you can dtilt buffer walk turn around jump input full backwards veloctiy shorthop then djc a bair full momentum backwards. If you mess up they eat a weak bair if you do it right and you get a strong one.

If that doesn't make sense let me know I can try again.

I'm a little late to the party, but I'm curious what you are saying here.... Could you try rewording that?

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[soju]

I'm curious as a pika player how should you punish a nair from under I've recently started playing with a mewtwo and even though I've learned how a lot of his stuff works nair just boggles me

 

[ChivalRuse]

HOLY ****ING **** GUYS I JUST DISCOVERED SOMETHING ABSOLUTELY REVOLUTIONARY

MEWTWO HAS A ****ING IASA FRAME ON DTILT AT FRAME GODDAMN 20

I'm p sure it's jsut like Marth's cause I only noticed it on walk forward.


Yes, it is like Marth's. You can't cancel it with shield or crouch but walk forward, another dtilt, etc etc does work.



14 ****ing years this game has been out and nobody noticed. (edit: actually, it might have been known by the project M dev team due to them using the melee data to recreate Mewtwo for their game but I've never seen any mention of this IASA frame anywhere before) Whoever thought taj hit the limits of this character is clearly dead wrong.

I even double checked in masterhand to make sure it wasn't just my 20XX iso being buggy and it's right ****ing there. The whole time it was in plain sight but I never noticed it before, ugh.

Other than walking forward, how else can you enter the IASA frames? Jumping?

 

[ihasabuket]

HOLY ****ING **** GUYS I JUST DISCOVERED SOMETHING ABSOLUTELY REVOLUTIONARY

MEWTWO HAS A ****ING IASA FRAME ON DTILT AT FRAME GODDAMN 20

I'm p sure it's jsut like Marth's cause I only noticed it on walk forward.


Yes, it is like Marth's. You can't cancel it with shield or crouch but walk forward, another dtilt, etc etc does work.



14 ****ing years this game has been out and nobody noticed. (edit: actually, it might have been known by the project M dev team due to them using the melee data to recreate Mewtwo for their game but I've never seen any mention of this IASA frame anywhere before) Whoever thought taj hit the limits of this character is clearly dead wrong.

I even double checked in masterhand to make sure it wasn't just my 20XX iso being buggy and it's right ****ing there. The whole time it was in plain sight but I never noticed it before, ugh.

WTF is this true?!?!?!? it has less endlag than most jabs!

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[MookieRah]

I was aware of the Iasa frames on the dtilt, and I am certain that Taj was as well, considering he also has a Marth. I think this is more of an oversight with recording this somewhere, as I distinctly remember a video of Mow recorded in 2003 or so where he dilts, walks forward and grabs his opponent. This video inspired me to pick up M2 in the first place.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[SuperShus]

I didn't know there was anyone who didn't know about those frames on dtilt lol

 

[SuperShus]

I'm a little late to the party, but I'm curious what you are saying here.... Could you try rewording that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY3XugmyMow

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[MookieRah]

I posted from my phone last night, but to reiterate, this was indeed known. IASA stuff was figured out quite early, and prior to maining Mewtwo I played both Marth and Roy, both of whom had IASA frames on dtilt. Suffice it to say, myself and others were quick to try other similar moves for IASA frames.

That said, I didn't actually use those frames for much back then, as the early days of smash were very unpolished. Hell, I hardly approached in my hay day, I simply caught people's mistakes. When I play M2 now I play him a lot like Marth, in which case I poke with dtilts and abuse the heck out of IASA frames all the time.

 

[SuperShus]

btw the popular stratocaster post with the hitbox gifs has all wrong frame data, asai frames, move lag and stuff.
http://www.angelfire.com/games5/superdoodleman/Mewtwo_frames_11.6.05.txt
This is the real frame data

No mods or anything come by to unstick crap from 2007 or pin anything new
So what we've got is often wrong or just outdated.
RIP Mewtwo community

Such is the life of the forgotten Mewtwo.
BTW I'm thinking 2016 is the year of Mewtwo.
Normally I'd say let's gooo but it's gotten lame.

 

[ChivalRuse]

D-tilt has always been Mewtwo's best move. I guess that explains why.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[MookieRah]

We would need a thread like the Shiek thread for all of the viable characters as well as Kadano level of frame analysis going on as well.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Does anybody have a good grasp of "disable" 's mechanics? I'm trying to get a handle on how it interacts with airborne enemies.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[ChivalRuse]

So the Medusa principle still applies to airborne opponents. Thanks.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[MookieRah]

and where wavedashing would forfeit too much space and/or prevent a punish.

Learn to vary your wavedashes and this won't be a problem. It's not *that* hard to learn 3 different lengths, which is pretty much all you would need really.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I don't like the idea of using bair in neutral, at least against Fox, because I'm pretty sure it's possible for him to up-smash through it on reaction usually.

Instead, I might consider using reverse shadow ball charges, which have more priority and can be cancelled at any time. This has the ability to stop his shffl nair approaches with less risk of trading or losing outright. Confusion and disable both seem like reasonable defenses for a Fox charging at you, if you can time them right (which might be difficult without substantial experience).

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[ChivalRuse]

This is why it's important to have tight dash dances. The frame data on dash dance gives more windows for punishing nair landing than wavedash evasion.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[ChivalRuse]

Unfortunately, I did some rough number crunching, and found that Mewtwo would need about the space covered by 15.5 frame of his dash separating the two before Fox starts jumping in order for his dash away to avoid Fox's nair. Again, the numbers are rough and it's purely indicative not meant for precision.

Which is why you have to start dashing away before he starts his running shffl nair, and before he has time to react to your movement but has already mentally committed to attacking in a certain location. Alternatively, you can dash dance through Fox, and catch him landing from behind.

 

[MookieRah]

Dashing or wavedashing at your opponent is solid. I've done it to great effect and PP has recently touched on this as well in regards to dealing with these kinds of interactions. Also, Fox nair can be shield grabbed if it hits high on M2's shield, and it might be possible to position yourself for a shield grab on reaction in certain cases.

Keep in mind M2's grab has the ability to grab an opponent that is behind him, as long as they are touching him.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[ChivalRuse]

If you are proficient with dash dancing, you can react to a lot of things. Now, the flipside of relying on your dash dance is that you have to know when to abort the dash dance and maybe either shield or throw out a tilt. I do think that the shadow ball charging hitbox is a relatively unexplored, high-priority hitbox that could be fleshed out more to the point where it could have uses in neutral.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[ChivalRuse]

Hm yeah I knew that the hits are easy to SDI. It's still hard to deny the priority of the hitbox (especially against characters without many disjointed hitboxes like Fox).

Are there any videos that I could look at that show the pivot d-tilt executed properly?

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[ChivalRuse]

I'll test it out on my own later today.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj