ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Why not just jab reset the missed tech??
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Advancing the Mewtwo Meta Game
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ihasabuket
Smash Journeyman
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Wow, this is amazing, i didnt know mewtwo had a ledgehop! Thanks bruh!
Also you can jab reset fox during the beginning of his mistech animation where he bounces up or after the bounce when hes on his stomach. This is because the hurtbox on his tail is on top of his body when he is on his stomach.
Also you can jab reset fox during the beginning of his mistech animation where he bounces up or after the bounce when hes on his stomach. This is because the hurtbox on his tail is on top of his body when he is on his stomach.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I've definitely jab reset Fox before, so I know it's possible.
ihasabuket
Smash Journeyman
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At higher %s i think its just better to dtilit a misstech, doesnt matter if they ASDI and youll probably get a followup.
D
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Britex
Smash Apprentice
Mario main here. Mewtwo's a cool character, with a lot of potential; so don't give up.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I've never seen this or thought about it: does confusion grab a shielding opponent? I'm thinking it might be useful against people shielding on platforms.
D
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Even nairing someone shielding on a platform is probably more solid.
For pressuring someone in shield on a platform, don't forget djc uair -> utilt is. It works like maths but is worse (XD, low tiers).
Also if someone is being overly defensive, charge your shadow ball. Mewtwo becomes pretty scary once his shadowball is fully charged, and that will often bait people into a half-baked attack plan. If you're proficient at moving forward and backward mid djc you can pull of some really sick feints that are kinda safe. You can also space tilt or utilt - even tilt if it'll give you an edge guard.
Also if someone is being overly defensive, charge your shadow ball. Mewtwo becomes pretty scary once his shadowball is fully charged, and that will often bait people into a half-baked attack plan. If you're proficient at moving forward and backward mid djc you can pull of some really sick feints that are kinda safe. You can also space tilt or utilt - even tilt if it'll give you an edge guard.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
To be honest, Mewtwo's biggest weakness from what I have seen is his big hurtbox. He's just so easy to hit, and his moves are not very disjointed and will trade so often. 
ihasabuket
Smash Journeyman
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When someone is on a side platform you can hit them with SH bair without being directly under under them. It's much safer than DJC upair or uptilt. It's the safest option since youre not directly under them they cant shield drop punish AND you can DJ, WL, or even use confusion out of it.
Ive been testing confusion when the side platforms are in front of you to see if you can use it on shield without getting punished. It's completely safe if you full hop confusion AFTER reaching the peak of your jump. They cant fall through the platform and you fall below the platforms height before they can throw out an aerial. They can however DJ out of it, but thats not really a big deal since you would be below the platform height already.
Also to comment on the dashdance thing, it's actually pretty useful if you just space as if your tail is in front of you. Punishing is not really a problem since your WD is incredibly long and all WD have only 10 frames of endlag. If they somehow end up too close you can just opt for pivot fsmash. He actually has one of the longest dashdance lengths, i found this post from feb 2015.
http://smashboards.com/threads/ultimate-ground-movement-analysis-turbo-edition.392367/#post-1883
Edit: fsmash hits a little past your tail. Since the end of your tail doesnt actually have a hurtbox you have a fairly good punish/stuff from a dashdance.
Ive been testing confusion when the side platforms are in front of you to see if you can use it on shield without getting punished. It's completely safe if you full hop confusion AFTER reaching the peak of your jump. They cant fall through the platform and you fall below the platforms height before they can throw out an aerial. They can however DJ out of it, but thats not really a big deal since you would be below the platform height already.
Also to comment on the dashdance thing, it's actually pretty useful if you just space as if your tail is in front of you. Punishing is not really a problem since your WD is incredibly long and all WD have only 10 frames of endlag. If they somehow end up too close you can just opt for pivot fsmash. He actually has one of the longest dashdance lengths, i found this post from feb 2015.
http://smashboards.com/threads/ultimate-ground-movement-analysis-turbo-edition.392367/#post-1883
Edit: fsmash hits a little past your tail. Since the end of your tail doesnt actually have a hurtbox you have a fairly good punish/stuff from a dashdance.
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Problem with using sh bair to cover platforms is that mewtwo can't really follow up even if he gets the hit.
If he lands a uair or utilt he often can follow up. At certain percents in certain matchups that's likely to flip flop. But against fast fallers I don't think a bair would do anything at all even if it hit except at high percents, but even still, it's going to be the weak bair or you'd be spaced just as safely as from a uair.
And I really don't see how doing a djc uair utilt is so much more dangerous that a bair. Utilt comes out pretty fast and so does utilt and it doesn't have bad asai frames.
taj does it in game 2 - this is his 2015 mewtwo
https://youtu.be/rezYqVlsWTQ
at 5:40 he does it and gets nothing, but he also doesn't get rekt by PCs falco until he does another utilt for no reason. But pc shield drops after the first utilt(the one I'm suggesting) and if you're in the middle of a sh bair when he does the shield drop you will get rekt I think
I don't really know i guess
If he lands a uair or utilt he often can follow up. At certain percents in certain matchups that's likely to flip flop. But against fast fallers I don't think a bair would do anything at all even if it hit except at high percents, but even still, it's going to be the weak bair or you'd be spaced just as safely as from a uair.
And I really don't see how doing a djc uair utilt is so much more dangerous that a bair. Utilt comes out pretty fast and so does utilt and it doesn't have bad asai frames.
taj does it in game 2 - this is his 2015 mewtwo
https://youtu.be/rezYqVlsWTQ
at 5:40 he does it and gets nothing, but he also doesn't get rekt by PCs falco until he does another utilt for no reason. But pc shield drops after the first utilt(the one I'm suggesting) and if you're in the middle of a sh bair when he does the shield drop you will get rekt I think
I don't really know i guess
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ihasabuket
Smash Journeyman
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Just to clarify im talking about SH rising bair, like bair as soon as you leave the ground. Your SH is 35 frames and bair is 31 frames total which means that aside from spacing yourself, you can air dodge(and WL), DJ, or side b before you hit the ground or it will AC(autocancel is 4 frames). Upair is a total of 37 frames and if you DJC you cant space yourself out of harms way. Uptilt has pretty much the same range as upair with 17 frames of endlag(minimum).With bair you can weave out after it connects with shield or you can DJ upair/bair before hitting the ground. Upair doesnt have the horizontal reach that bair does and at its max horizontal range upair can still get shield drop punished. Even if you manage to shield it youd be put in shield pressure, and although you can easily escape it by buffer rolling, there are more favorable positions you can put yourself in.
It's true that Bair may not be that rewarding but it's a safe mixup. Upair is rewarding but punishable, but hey most moves are punishable. In the end i think theyre both options that need to be incorporated, otherwise your options become predictable.
It's true that Bair may not be that rewarding but it's a safe mixup. Upair is rewarding but punishable, but hey most moves are punishable. In the end i think theyre both options that need to be incorporated, otherwise your options become predictable.
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Well bair being over before you hit the ground makes it pretty safe lol, i see
If you dj after the bair do you just hit the ground unless you're basically frame perfect? How much of a frame window is there? Say I want to do sh bair dj bair, as a mixup to just sh bair, is the timing on that very tight? Or is it very easy? I would just boot up smash to find out but I'm in taiwan for three more weeks and don't have access to the game.
If you dj after the bair do you just hit the ground unless you're basically frame perfect? How much of a frame window is there? Say I want to do sh bair dj bair, as a mixup to just sh bair, is the timing on that very tight? Or is it very easy? I would just boot up smash to find out but I'm in taiwan for three more weeks and don't have access to the game.
Yo PP just made 'church of rising fair' a thing, perhaps raising bair could be good on mewtwo? If you could go from facing forward to turning around rising up with the huge bair hotbox that could be pretty useful. Obviously the difference is fair is a great aerial and mewtwos bar's weak hit is pretty lackluster.
ihasabuket
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You have a 4 frame window to DJ, 6 if you buffer DJ with the control stick. Its very easy to do, young link's double bair is a 2 frame window and i almost never miss it.Well bair being over before you hit the ground makes it pretty safe lol, i see
If you dj after the bair do you just hit the ground unless you're basically frame perfect? How much of a frame window is there? Say I want to do sh bair dj bair, as a mixup to just sh bair, is the timing on that very tight? Or is it very easy? I would just boot up smash to find out but I'm in taiwan for three more weeks and don't have access to the game.
Yeah PP loves to rising fair when he has them backed into the edge. It could definitely work with mewtwo i think especially since you can do **** like SH bair DJ nair to keep em in the corner. You could also do DJC bair dtilt/uptilt. Hell you could probably throw an fsmash in there since it would push them off the edge.
Do any of you mewtwos have recording setups or am I the only one? I'm sorry I can't make any videos or anything.
Have any of you been able to do the chain throw?Also I noticed in a match vs silent spectre at that 80 percent mark he would just down throw dtilt. No wavedash, no asai walk, just dtilt. Might be a good idea to just do that. Then you get an ftilt or fair depending on their di.
Also I recently saw Taj use neutral b charge up to get a regrab in a tech chase. ( I think it was the same set vs silent spectre )
Anyone else have luck with that?
Have any of you been able to do the chain throw?Also I noticed in a match vs silent spectre at that 80 percent mark he would just down throw dtilt. No wavedash, no asai walk, just dtilt. Might be a good idea to just do that. Then you get an ftilt or fair depending on their di.
Also I recently saw Taj use neutral b charge up to get a regrab in a tech chase. ( I think it was the same set vs silent spectre )
Anyone else have luck with that?
ihasabuket
Smash Journeyman
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Is that set at DGDTJ? I dont have a recording setup, sorry. Itd be great if you could record some of these things weve discussed. Also, are you now maining mewtwo?
It's the one where he completely wrecks him with Marth one game and then goes back to Mewtwo. I don't remember if that's DGDTJ but I think it is.
I have streamed a few times while just practicing tech-skill and in debug mode at twitch.tv/supershus
...main? uhm... I really don't know. I have to play more people, lab more, and go to some tournaments and decide what I'm doing. I chainged flair because I only use smashboards for this. The funny thing is that... there really is nowhere for fox mains to gather and talk about fox. Everywhere is swarmed by people asking how to shdl and whatever else that nothing deep gets done.
Anyway, back to the question of who's my main...
Because I'm about to graduate college in a year, and I have a loving girlfriend - I'm losing the fire to be the best that I had two years ago when I started training my fox. I just know that I won't be able to pour the time into smash that it takes to be the best in my region, MD/VA.
Now what seems to really interest me is unlocking some of the secrets of my favorite character, Mewtwo. I don't mean obscure TAS type techniques, but things that would help people get better. I don't think mewtwo is that misrepresented by he tier list, but I think he is underplayed. The biggest problem is that he is very technical, that's a big problem if you want to main him from the beginning because you know that he's going to give you a lot of trouble.
But I don't know yet. Committing to a low tier is a bit mental in my opinion, I don't know if I'm ready to give up playing Fox - but I know that for a while he's going to take a back seat until my mewtwo is formidable at least against players just below my skill level.
Then I will decide what to do.
I have streamed a few times while just practicing tech-skill and in debug mode at twitch.tv/supershus
...main? uhm... I really don't know. I have to play more people, lab more, and go to some tournaments and decide what I'm doing. I chainged flair because I only use smashboards for this. The funny thing is that... there really is nowhere for fox mains to gather and talk about fox. Everywhere is swarmed by people asking how to shdl and whatever else that nothing deep gets done.
Anyway, back to the question of who's my main...
Because I'm about to graduate college in a year, and I have a loving girlfriend - I'm losing the fire to be the best that I had two years ago when I started training my fox. I just know that I won't be able to pour the time into smash that it takes to be the best in my region, MD/VA.
Now what seems to really interest me is unlocking some of the secrets of my favorite character, Mewtwo. I don't mean obscure TAS type techniques, but things that would help people get better. I don't think mewtwo is that misrepresented by he tier list, but I think he is underplayed. The biggest problem is that he is very technical, that's a big problem if you want to main him from the beginning because you know that he's going to give you a lot of trouble.
But I don't know yet. Committing to a low tier is a bit mental in my opinion, I don't know if I'm ready to give up playing Fox - but I know that for a while he's going to take a back seat until my mewtwo is formidable at least against players just below my skill level.
Then I will decide what to do.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
It's fun playing low tiers. It's a different kind of motivation.
I think in some ways it was really hard for me to grasp much of the fundamentals for melee playing as fox because there's so much in between you and fox. I switched my right hand to claw about a year ago in order to help with the drillshine infinite, which I later learned is a nearly useless technique anyway because it only worked in 2006 since we got SOoS now.
However I was able to do rising bairs OoS by starting the aerial reliably on first frame which is super strong. A few tournaments and a new practice partner later and I am way closer to understanding the purpose of positioning on the stage and how to cover options and follow up on hits, especially in the ditto and vs falco.
Then I started training with a brand new smasher who didn't know any techskill and my old horrible mewtwo came out. I had toyed with him before but I was so bad with him that everyone four stocked me and I felt like I was boring them, so I'd never use him. But I was able to begin using the character against this new player, and over about a month I developed a mewtwo which could take roughly half the stocks of my Fox on average across several players. (That's means if I was getting two stocked as fox i got 4 stocked as mewtwo, if I was going even with them as fox two stocked as mewtwo, four stocking as fox, two stocking as mewtwo). That's when summer break started. I went home and began playing in debug mode which is when we developed the techchase... if it's humanly possible... I've been in taiwan for two weeks and there are three left. I start summer school on the 28th and that's when I move in with my good friend who lives about a half hour from sypherpheonix's local basement fests. That place is the local training ground/hangout of the VA side (And Bones) of the Xanadu entrants. Mahone, Aglet, Bones, Sypher, Scrapmettle, Tdude, etc...
So I plan on playing with my friend StayDynamic ( who's first time on stream was in a crew battle where he took his first stock by powershielding a bomb-omb XD ), streaming and training my mewtwo and fox, and testing what I learn at sypher's fests and local tournaments.
Hopefully then I will be able to help the mewtwo community more by putting my character where my theory is.
I also make youtube videos, you may have seen EG PPMD, I made that video. I made other videos as well such as a video detailing the shine mining technique, and I hope to make more videos helping mewtwo players and just general smash things once I return to the US.
We'll see how busy my Calc 3 summer class keeps me! XD
Anyway I hope I can come through on these promises and at least lend some theory crafting while I'm overseas. I feel like I'm not that much help since I don't know mewtwo that well, but I know smash quite well. My Fox has gotten quite technical lately. I've always pursued the techniques from that perfect dark combo video that turned me onto dark room hours practice.
tl;dr
yes dgdtj
not sure about my main
switch to claw
i will start streaming and making videos around the July
gl hf <3
However I was able to do rising bairs OoS by starting the aerial reliably on first frame which is super strong. A few tournaments and a new practice partner later and I am way closer to understanding the purpose of positioning on the stage and how to cover options and follow up on hits, especially in the ditto and vs falco.
Then I started training with a brand new smasher who didn't know any techskill and my old horrible mewtwo came out. I had toyed with him before but I was so bad with him that everyone four stocked me and I felt like I was boring them, so I'd never use him. But I was able to begin using the character against this new player, and over about a month I developed a mewtwo which could take roughly half the stocks of my Fox on average across several players. (That's means if I was getting two stocked as fox i got 4 stocked as mewtwo, if I was going even with them as fox two stocked as mewtwo, four stocking as fox, two stocking as mewtwo). That's when summer break started. I went home and began playing in debug mode which is when we developed the techchase... if it's humanly possible... I've been in taiwan for two weeks and there are three left. I start summer school on the 28th and that's when I move in with my good friend who lives about a half hour from sypherpheonix's local basement fests. That place is the local training ground/hangout of the VA side (And Bones) of the Xanadu entrants. Mahone, Aglet, Bones, Sypher, Scrapmettle, Tdude, etc...
So I plan on playing with my friend StayDynamic ( who's first time on stream was in a crew battle where he took his first stock by powershielding a bomb-omb XD ), streaming and training my mewtwo and fox, and testing what I learn at sypher's fests and local tournaments.
Hopefully then I will be able to help the mewtwo community more by putting my character where my theory is.
I also make youtube videos, you may have seen EG PPMD, I made that video. I made other videos as well such as a video detailing the shine mining technique, and I hope to make more videos helping mewtwo players and just general smash things once I return to the US.
We'll see how busy my Calc 3 summer class keeps me! XD
Anyway I hope I can come through on these promises and at least lend some theory crafting while I'm overseas. I feel like I'm not that much help since I don't know mewtwo that well, but I know smash quite well. My Fox has gotten quite technical lately. I've always pursued the techniques from that perfect dark combo video that turned me onto dark room hours practice.
tl;dr
yes dgdtj
not sure about my main
switch to claw
i will start streaming and making videos around the July
gl hf <3
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Practicing in your room with the lights off is too good.
The annoying thing about playing mewtwo has always been his lack of a good hitbox in front of him. How useful are DJC confusion/DJC disable out of shield? Also, is it worthwhile to ever charge shadowball with your back to your opponent to use the hitbox? I know that it can work sometimes as a gimmick, but I'm trying to determine if it actually is a solid option in certain conditions.
The annoying thing about playing mewtwo has always been his lack of a good hitbox in front of him. How useful are DJC confusion/DJC disable out of shield? Also, is it worthwhile to ever charge shadowball with your back to your opponent to use the hitbox? I know that it can work sometimes as a gimmick, but I'm trying to determine if it actually is a solid option in certain conditions.
I don't think it's the location of hitboxes that has Mewtwo foiled, except that its even harder for him to attack below himself than for Marth... but he's got a good airdodge and the nifty teleport so it isn't impossible to come down as long as you are mixing up well.
He's got ftilt(3 angles of it), dtilt, uptilt, fair, and if we want to include those janky but sometimes useful b moves, reverse sbcc, shdisable, and confusion.
All of those hit in front.
Imo the only reliable of those options are ftilt dtilt util and fair.
reverse sbcc IS useful but using it properly is something I am nowhere near understanding and it's not that simple. It's something you have to intentionally practice, and if your opponent sees it coming... it's over. That's the kinda thing you use once in a bo3 set, if that.
You can see that Taj will test out confusion and shdisable to see if his opponent knows how to get around it. If they show that they don't know and can't figure it out, he'll spam that option a lot. Against PC Chris he used shdisable many many many times, but vs Armada at Genesis 2 I don't think he bothered even once. They're tricks. The fact that we've seen Taj abuse them so well and yet never attempt them vs the best players means we need to understand how to test the waters, and realize when it's not going to work.
I know Taj doesn't have the dark-room ideal mewtwo, not much for shield drops or camping - but his agressive(when possible) mewtwo creates pressure and fear - often where there should be no fear. It's amazing to see this playstyle get shut down by armada's peach in the Genesis 2 vods, you can kind of see how amazing Taj is that he 180s his playstyle and does so well. But you can also see when he decides he just doesn't want to camp anymore and the game falls out of his hands. I just found out that they played in pools. That match is interesting as you can quickly see he decides against using the fh nair that works great against noobs once he eats a nair combo for it. It's also great to see him adjust his recovery so he can get back vs peach.
Here are some awesome matches I'm rewatching.
https://youtu.be/Bhmm6CSqYXc - Vs Armada (Pools Genesis 2) 2011
https://youtu.be/ltK9sfN2xUE - Vs Armada (Winner's Finals) 2011
https://youtu.be/VOGpdMbjKks - Vs Silent Spectre 2011
https://youtu.be/2IsXiEG0diQ - Vs DrPeePee 2010
https://youtu.be/TItBmEUcrdE - Vs SFat 2013
https://youtu.be/rezYqVlsWTQ - Vs PC Chris 2015
Those are really great matches to watch.
Anyway have fun! XD
He's got ftilt(3 angles of it), dtilt, uptilt, fair, and if we want to include those janky but sometimes useful b moves, reverse sbcc, shdisable, and confusion.
All of those hit in front.
Imo the only reliable of those options are ftilt dtilt util and fair.
reverse sbcc IS useful but using it properly is something I am nowhere near understanding and it's not that simple. It's something you have to intentionally practice, and if your opponent sees it coming... it's over. That's the kinda thing you use once in a bo3 set, if that.
You can see that Taj will test out confusion and shdisable to see if his opponent knows how to get around it. If they show that they don't know and can't figure it out, he'll spam that option a lot. Against PC Chris he used shdisable many many many times, but vs Armada at Genesis 2 I don't think he bothered even once. They're tricks. The fact that we've seen Taj abuse them so well and yet never attempt them vs the best players means we need to understand how to test the waters, and realize when it's not going to work.
I know Taj doesn't have the dark-room ideal mewtwo, not much for shield drops or camping - but his agressive(when possible) mewtwo creates pressure and fear - often where there should be no fear. It's amazing to see this playstyle get shut down by armada's peach in the Genesis 2 vods, you can kind of see how amazing Taj is that he 180s his playstyle and does so well. But you can also see when he decides he just doesn't want to camp anymore and the game falls out of his hands. I just found out that they played in pools. That match is interesting as you can quickly see he decides against using the fh nair that works great against noobs once he eats a nair combo for it. It's also great to see him adjust his recovery so he can get back vs peach.
Here are some awesome matches I'm rewatching.
https://youtu.be/Bhmm6CSqYXc - Vs Armada (Pools Genesis 2) 2011
https://youtu.be/ltK9sfN2xUE - Vs Armada (Winner's Finals) 2011
https://youtu.be/VOGpdMbjKks - Vs Silent Spectre 2011
https://youtu.be/2IsXiEG0diQ - Vs DrPeePee 2010
https://youtu.be/TItBmEUcrdE - Vs SFat 2013
https://youtu.be/rezYqVlsWTQ - Vs PC Chris 2015
Those are really great matches to watch.
Anyway have fun! XD
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Yeah I love those matches.
Also, I meant he doesn't really have aerials that reach far forward, making it difficult to get any kind of aerial spacing game going in the horizontal sense. Vertically, uair, nair and bair are pretty great though.
Also, I meant he doesn't really have aerials that reach far forward, making it difficult to get any kind of aerial spacing game going in the horizontal sense. Vertically, uair, nair and bair are pretty great though.
ihasabuket
Smash Journeyman
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I guess you could just space SH rising bairs; The end of your tail is disjointed and you have great mixups out of it.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I've tried it. I don't like bairs in neutral because it does extend your hurtbox, even if the end is disjointed somewhat.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
It works fine against less seasoned players. Maybe I should try different variations and spacing increments with it. I just feel like it's so vulnerable to things like Fox's upsmash/Falco's bair/Peach's dash attack/Sheik's f-tilt/and Marth's anything counterspaced trading.
D
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gcyftftdtfyxycyvj
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
As with most low tiers, the best way of playing them is by centering your entire strategy around their FEW strengths.
I hate to be pessimistic but I don't think there's really any useful techskill left in Mewtwo, unless dash dancing can be 'replaced' by NIL and edge cancelled teleports (not 'L'edge cancelled teleport, which is just the same thing fox does when he rides up against the walls of stages with his up b - not sure why it has a name).I think the only thing left for Mewtwo is getting gimps and combos in every matchup. There's not much meta development left in a character who's at the bottom of the tier list but was perfected enough to guide his user (with the help of a marth) to third at the largest melee tourney ever (in 2011 lol)
The truth is that Taj nailed down the basics of Mewtwo already. Even though Taj isn't in tip top shape anymore he can still body active players who win regional tournaments. Part of it is a strange matchup for sure, but you can't deny the solid fundamentals that Taj has.
Most of what's between us, and winning our local tournaments is patience, practice, fundamentals, and matchups. I really don't think Mewtwo has some kind of super secret hidden potential that will make him as viable as Mario or Luigi or Samus. Mewtwo and Yoshi are pretty closely matched. Mewtwo having a much much better recovery and Yoshi having a stronger approach, projectile, and combo game.
Mewtwo's fundamental tech in my opinion is(in no order):
Wavedash
WD OOS
Battlefield Confusion Trick(name?)
SUNC
Invincible Ledge Stall (you must spend a dj to get above the stage. Doing the one where you let go and upb straight into the ledge isn't as good because when you use the dj it gives you access to the whole stage and he ledge which means it makes your opponents need to cover more options. If you're only letting go then upbing then you are letting them time a ledge steal ...and the only one who should be taking cookies is you. However the straight into the ledge version is good for an invincibility refresh (plank) for edge hogging, and it's easier than the Taj DJ away ledge stall.)
Djc - There's so much to this technique besides speed. You can turn around in midair with dj, you can change directions - this means so much aerial mobility! Mastering this technique means you'll be flying like a humming bird and stinging like a bee.
Full hop to dj normal lading on platforms (using the downward velocity from the double jump to land on a platform, less lag than waveland. armada does this with peach for tight uthrow techchases on platforms vs spacies. I think it has a name but its not common knowledge so I won't bother using it)
sh horizontal teleport
Being able to time&space Dair correctly (ignoring this aerial due to it's slow speed is a mistake - as a read and as an option against foes recovering it is very strong - especially if you find that they can't meteor cancel. Suddenly Mewtwo becomes a stronger edgegaurder.)
DJC so you get only the strong hitbox of nair. ( nice out of shield but very slow - It's NOT like shine oos )
The truth is that Taj nailed down the basics of Mewtwo already. Even though Taj isn't in tip top shape anymore he can still body active players who win regional tournaments. Part of it is a strange matchup for sure, but you can't deny the solid fundamentals that Taj has.
Most of what's between us, and winning our local tournaments is patience, practice, fundamentals, and matchups. I really don't think Mewtwo has some kind of super secret hidden potential that will make him as viable as Mario or Luigi or Samus. Mewtwo and Yoshi are pretty closely matched. Mewtwo having a much much better recovery and Yoshi having a stronger approach, projectile, and combo game.
Mewtwo's fundamental tech in my opinion is(in no order):
Wavedash
WD OOS
Battlefield Confusion Trick(name?)
SUNC
Invincible Ledge Stall (you must spend a dj to get above the stage. Doing the one where you let go and upb straight into the ledge isn't as good because when you use the dj it gives you access to the whole stage and he ledge which means it makes your opponents need to cover more options. If you're only letting go then upbing then you are letting them time a ledge steal ...and the only one who should be taking cookies is you. However the straight into the ledge version is good for an invincibility refresh (plank) for edge hogging, and it's easier than the Taj DJ away ledge stall.)
Djc - There's so much to this technique besides speed. You can turn around in midair with dj, you can change directions - this means so much aerial mobility! Mastering this technique means you'll be flying like a humming bird and stinging like a bee.
Full hop to dj normal lading on platforms (using the downward velocity from the double jump to land on a platform, less lag than waveland. armada does this with peach for tight uthrow techchases on platforms vs spacies. I think it has a name but its not common knowledge so I won't bother using it)
sh horizontal teleport
Being able to time&space Dair correctly (ignoring this aerial due to it's slow speed is a mistake - as a read and as an option against foes recovering it is very strong - especially if you find that they can't meteor cancel. Suddenly Mewtwo becomes a stronger edgegaurder.)
DJC so you get only the strong hitbox of nair. ( nice out of shield but very slow - It's NOT like shine oos )
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I think that Mewtwo-specific tech is quite important. But there's a lot to be said for simply playing a fundamentally strong neutral and getting the proper throw setups and tech chases. Look at Iori from years ago. He was just a really good player who happened to play Mewtwo. And he was winning by just having strong fundamentals, not really by using gimmicks.
M-Tude
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2014
- Messages
- 66
I disagree with both of you on some level, I think that M2 has a lot of underused/underdeveloped tech that people need to implement regularly in their gameplay, and I also think that they way to be good with M2 is not by playing to his strengths (That should be a given, that you're good at what you're character is good at) but play to his weaknesses so that you can make them less debilitating.
I think a really good example of this is an overlooked tech in MeleeM2's tech guide; the "undiscovered" aerial interrupt from the ledge that lands you on the ledge with enough intangibility left to D-tilt while still Intangible. I say this is a good example because in my opinion M2 has a tough time getting back from the ledge into center stage even if he can get to the ledge very easily. This is because most M2s resort to DJ back and up and ten teleport center stage. This might surprise some people the first few times, but I see M2s get punished at least 3-4+ times per set for doing this once people catch on.
Using the Aerial interrupt, you have a way to take stage automatically at least, and then you can
1. Throw out a D-tilt to an unsuspecting foe
2. Roll to center stage with a super long and invincible roll
3. WD back to ledge to confuse people
4. Jump back teleport center stage (this will get you farther CS than doing it from the ledge)
5. Do some other cray movement to scare them or take center stage
There are other one's such as M2's DJC momentum shift in order to space aerials better (particularly on shield), M2's DJC land OoS provides a great and fast way to start moving around again (it's faster than WD to get out of shield at least), M2's perfect wave land made the list of top 15 fastest movement options.
I really think that this is actually the age of low tiers, because even though fox is getting so good because of all the techs people find, I think all these things (like Pivots, shield drops, perfect WL, neutral jump drift technology,and lightshield tricks) offer low tiers a ton of new movement options and ways to set themselves up facing a direction that they want to go. I don't know if I'm the one to do it personally, but I'm of the opinion that a lot of low tiers don't make it to higher levels because they feel like the oldschool players who we look up to are all still the best and that we can't be better. While M2 certainly has limitations and Taj is certainly still the best M2 around, I dont think he is even close to the best that M2 could be, simply because he doesn't utilize most of the techs that I just pointed out. I still see him get punished for teleporting center stage when its become easily readable.
These aren't necessarily gimmiks, but they're also outside of the range of fundamentals now and moving into complex use of some of M2's unique movement options, which is really really cool!
That's my 2 cents. Innovate, innovate, innovate. Try doing a dash forward, pivot neutral jump, DJC fair full drift back and see how it feels to have some movement as crazy as that. you should all of a sudden have thrown out a hotbox very quickly and now you're safely out of shield grab range and facing the other way. who cares if it's not practical yet? Get good at it and it will be. New movement is such a huge part of the game's 2015 meta that it doesn't matter if it's practical, you just have to quick enough that they can't pin down what you're going to do.
I think a really good example of this is an overlooked tech in MeleeM2's tech guide; the "undiscovered" aerial interrupt from the ledge that lands you on the ledge with enough intangibility left to D-tilt while still Intangible. I say this is a good example because in my opinion M2 has a tough time getting back from the ledge into center stage even if he can get to the ledge very easily. This is because most M2s resort to DJ back and up and ten teleport center stage. This might surprise some people the first few times, but I see M2s get punished at least 3-4+ times per set for doing this once people catch on.
Using the Aerial interrupt, you have a way to take stage automatically at least, and then you can
1. Throw out a D-tilt to an unsuspecting foe
2. Roll to center stage with a super long and invincible roll
3. WD back to ledge to confuse people
4. Jump back teleport center stage (this will get you farther CS than doing it from the ledge)
5. Do some other cray movement to scare them or take center stage
There are other one's such as M2's DJC momentum shift in order to space aerials better (particularly on shield), M2's DJC land OoS provides a great and fast way to start moving around again (it's faster than WD to get out of shield at least), M2's perfect wave land made the list of top 15 fastest movement options.
I really think that this is actually the age of low tiers, because even though fox is getting so good because of all the techs people find, I think all these things (like Pivots, shield drops, perfect WL, neutral jump drift technology,and lightshield tricks) offer low tiers a ton of new movement options and ways to set themselves up facing a direction that they want to go. I don't know if I'm the one to do it personally, but I'm of the opinion that a lot of low tiers don't make it to higher levels because they feel like the oldschool players who we look up to are all still the best and that we can't be better. While M2 certainly has limitations and Taj is certainly still the best M2 around, I dont think he is even close to the best that M2 could be, simply because he doesn't utilize most of the techs that I just pointed out. I still see him get punished for teleporting center stage when its become easily readable.
These aren't necessarily gimmiks, but they're also outside of the range of fundamentals now and moving into complex use of some of M2's unique movement options, which is really really cool!
That's my 2 cents. Innovate, innovate, innovate. Try doing a dash forward, pivot neutral jump, DJC fair full drift back and see how it feels to have some movement as crazy as that. you should all of a sudden have thrown out a hotbox very quickly and now you're safely out of shield grab range and facing the other way. who cares if it's not practical yet? Get good at it and it will be. New movement is such a huge part of the game's 2015 meta that it doesn't matter if it's practical, you just have to quick enough that they can't pin down what you're going to do.
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
What do you mean by neutral jump drift? That doesn't sound like an advanced tech to me.
M-Tude
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2014
- Messages
- 66
It's technically not a new advanced technique, but it is something being newly implemented in a lot of peoples' play. Look at the 20GX captain falcon "dissecting the mechanics of jump" video. It's especially useful for falcon (and M2 to an extent) because of his good aerial mobility, basically its the idea that you can jump without holding the control stick in any direction and then drift a certain way to better space moves. I see Mango do this all the time which is part of why he spaces himself so well is because he's one of the best at this particular tech. It might not seem impressive, but its super useful and it opens up a lot of new options for people that didn't use it before. It's really super impressive watching Wizzrobe do this sort of stuff. I saw him do the Dash pivot neutral jump drift back Knee, and it was like nothing I'd ever seen before.
Also, in my opinion as mainly a ganon player, better spacing is the difference between no success, small success, and huge success. You can capitalize on so much more if you space yourself right to cover more options and be safer.
Also, in my opinion as mainly a ganon player, better spacing is the difference between no success, small success, and huge success. You can capitalize on so much more if you space yourself right to cover more options and be safer.
I agree with what you said about the AI ledge getup, I forgot to mention it.
Also I mentioned DJC air control, and the jump mechanics from that falcon video are very important for mewtwo I saw that video a while ago. You need it to play smash, it's not mewtwo specific.
Also when you were talking about dash pivot djc fair lemonade handlebar or whatever, fox can shffl a nair which comes out like 5 frames faster and has a better hitbox and is safer. Sorry bruh. And there's no way around that as mewtwo, that fox can just be airborne in 3 frames. It sucks.
I was doing some TAS stuff since I can't play smash and I was hit with the realization that mewtwo is really really slow. Even if his wavedash is fast, wavedashes are so slow. If his dash was a bit shorter, that'd actually be good, because then you wouldn't have to wait a million frames to dtilt after you dash in the other direction.
Just... ugh. Mewtwo is fun but he's really bad.
And just so you know I'm really technical even though I'm trash because i've been playing fox for a couple years already. So I can do those djc jukes and whatever, the only thing left is the ledge AI and the impossible techchase.
I think the techchase is not possible if they DI away even at low percents like 40. :/ More testing is needed.
Also I mentioned DJC air control, and the jump mechanics from that falcon video are very important for mewtwo I saw that video a while ago. You need it to play smash, it's not mewtwo specific.
Also when you were talking about dash pivot djc fair lemonade handlebar or whatever, fox can shffl a nair which comes out like 5 frames faster and has a better hitbox and is safer. Sorry bruh. And there's no way around that as mewtwo, that fox can just be airborne in 3 frames. It sucks.
I was doing some TAS stuff since I can't play smash and I was hit with the realization that mewtwo is really really slow. Even if his wavedash is fast, wavedashes are so slow. If his dash was a bit shorter, that'd actually be good, because then you wouldn't have to wait a million frames to dtilt after you dash in the other direction.
Just... ugh. Mewtwo is fun but he's really bad.
And just so you know I'm really technical even though I'm trash because i've been playing fox for a couple years already. So I can do those djc jukes and whatever, the only thing left is the ledge AI and the impossible techchase.
I think the techchase is not possible if they DI away even at low percents like 40. :/ More testing is needed.