Advancing the Mewtwo Meta Game

[MookieRah]

I got more vids, ran into a player that had me on the ropes. Managed to win all of the matches, but it was a battle to do so.

https://youtu.be/Cuo0OBCTipA
https://youtu.be/YIlY8jgoTmY
https://youtu.be/n2JKqtP72Ro

Btw, these are all unlisted videos because I feel it would be a **** move to post videos publicly in which I didn't ask my opponent if he was ok with me recording them. I don't think anyone would do anything with these, but just saying.

 

[ihasabuket]

Couldnt find any setups for fair pre knockdown %s but I found some pretty cool setups for fair at mid and high %s. Strong hit dash attack will combo into fair at like 40% - 80%. It can combo at even higher %s if they DI up. Weak hit dash attack will combo into dtilt at 71%. I landed strong dash attack -> FJ fair -> DJ fair to kill off the top the other day. I believe it wont combo if they DI behind you but no one would DI in especially with the threat of dtilts.
These work real well at high %s when people employ survival DI.

 

[ihasabuket]

I got more vids, ran into a player that had me on the ropes. Managed to win all of the matches, but it was a battle to do so.

https://youtu.be/Cuo0OBCTipA
https://youtu.be/YIlY8jgoTmY
https://youtu.be/n2JKqtP72Ro

Btw, these are all unlisted videos because I feel it would be a **** move to post videos publicly in which I didn't ask my opponent if he was ok with me recording them. I don't think anyone would do anything with these, but just saying.

Good **** in the marth MU, you play it a lot better than I do. I didnt think that marth would struggle so much against baby SBs but now that I think about it his lack of active hitboxes and terrible aerial mobility force him to practically swat the projectile in place. Plus since fair starts from the top he cant jump forward with a fair and shooting it at close range stuffs him. I just thought of this now but if marth opts to nair through baby SBs you can ASDI down the first hit and shield the second one to grab him. Baby SB zoning is seeming pretty solid to me now.

The only other MU specific advice I can offer is that you can punish tipper or non tipper fair OoS before hes actionable since your aerial mobility lets you reach him. Marths fair hits frames 4-7 so even if he hits on the last frame the IASA frame for fair is 30. Since tipper fair does 13 damage unstaled it does 7 shieldstun. So youd have 16 frames to punish him before he's actionable in the worst case scenario.

 

[MookieRah]

People don't realize how good shadow balls can be. Uncharged, shadow balls work like a poor man's falco laser. Charging, believe it or not, seems to have legitimate uses offensively, as well as a bait to force your opponent to come to you, and lastly a full charged shadow ball is damned amazing. Easily one of Mewtwo's most underrated moves.

I just thought of this now but if marth opts to nair through baby SBs you can ASDI down the first hit and shield the second one to grab him.

This is a very good idea. Now if I could only find a way to practice doing this outside of a match... It's really hard for me to implement something like this without solo-practice to solidify it as an option in my brain. I don't think the 20XX mod can have me record the action or anything like that, at least that I know of.

I still am working on adding in stationary fairs and slingshot fairs into my game too @_@. The problem is, I feel that if I don't beat people online with M2 they won't continue playing, because virtually everyone assumes that I'm being a **** and trying to beat them with a low tier. If I work on implementing new stuff and start losing, I feel that people would drop out on me even more than they already do, because honestly, I think most people are fueled by salt to play me for extended periods of time (although not all are like this, I know a few really cool dudes that are the closest thing I have to training partners).

[EDIT]
I figured out how to increase the video quality on OBS, and now my recordings look beautiful. I was glad to find out that I could record at such quality without any impact on Dolphin. Sadly, I derped on my hotkey presses and only have recordings of my victory screens from last night :-(. That said, it's not a huge loss, as I didn't play for long nor did I play people skilled enough to be worth posting about.

EDIT 2
This is one-sided but I have some matches against a Ness. The vids are super high quality though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzNdumjdke8

 

[ihasabuket]

I just found out that mewtwo can chain grab sheik if she DI's in. So basically I dthrow and buffer a walk forward. I wait for the DI in and if it doesnt come I keep walking forward towards the spot they'll land and begin techchasing. Also, pivot iDJC bair is really good too although I dont use it until she reaches mid %s.
Edit: I probably never found out because no one has a reason to DI in.

 

[MookieRah]

I'm pretty sure that lots of characters can be re-grabbed at lowish percents if they DI in, actually. Medium weight people tend to best for it though, as I recall Link being fodder for that sort of thing.

EDIT:
That moment when you realize that PAL Marth weighs the same as Mewtwo.

 

[ihasabuket]

I'm pretty sure that lots of characters can be re-grabbed at lowish percents if they DI in, actually. Medium weight people tend to best for it though, as I recall Link being fodder for that sort of thing.

EDIT:
That moment when you realize that PAL Marth weighs the same as Mewtwo.

Weight doesnt affect dthrow though. I tested it out and there are a few characters that can be regrabbed. Among them are sheik, marth, and ganon. Marth doesnt get chaingrabbed for that long but sheik gets chaingrabbed for a long a$$ time. I came up with a dthrow DI trap sometime ago and I just tried it out now. If you dthrow marth at 40% on yoshi's or PS facing the platforms you either get an aerial followup on in/up DI or a platform techase on away DI. It works on battlefield too but at slightly higher %s. I thought it'd work with shiek but she falls too fast to land on the platforms at any reasonable %. Maybe it'll work on FoDs small platforms but its super situational.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[MookieRah]

Damn. 6:49 - 6:57 and 7:54 - 8:03 are the kind of combos/chains I want to have in my repertoire. Gotta work on uair usage.

 

[Wreckarooni]

That feel when new Zoma VODs come out

Hey guys what can you all tell me about standing horizontal NIL teleport?

I seem to one be able to only do it one way, and right now it's like 20% accuracy for me. I have never messed around with NIL because until recently I thought it was like a frame perfect near impossible thing from reading about it in the past.

Anyways I can only achieve it by using a X/Y to jump and then doing the Up B. When I try to only use the analog stick and B it seems to never for me no matter any variation of timing/delay until I hit B to start the teleport (is there drift from holding a direction?). I also noticed that when I'm dashing or fast walking my accuracy in achieving a horizontal NIL teleport goes WAY up (this makes no sense but it's true for me)

Is it only timing sensitive and I'm just doing it too early/late with the analog stick or can you only do it by using a button to jump and then using Up-B?

 

[Sieghart]

I seem to one be able to only do it one way, and right now it's like 20% accuracy for me. I have never messed around with NIL because until recently I thought it was like a frame perfect near impossible thing from reading about it in the past.

It's really easy once you get the hang of it. In my opinion NIL teleport shenanigans in general become really second nature one you get the angles right. So much so that I've decided that I'm personally better off just making it up as I go than grinding out movement routines.

I also noticed that when I'm dashing or fast walking my accuracy in achieving a horizontal NIL teleport goes WAY up (this makes no sense but it's true for me)

You probably walk/dash at or near a good NIL angle by default. It's not like doing it out of walk/dash is bad or something so long as you aren't slow about it. I was told Teleport OoS isn't a good option anyways.

Is it only timing sensitive and I'm just doing it too early/late with the analog stick or can you only do it by using a button to jump and then using Up-B?

The angle changes depending on how high or low you are in comparison to the ground, of course, if that's what you're asking. That's obvious since your distance from where you'll land will change forcing you to compensate by using a more or less slightly diagonal angle to still get the NIL.

You can definitely only do it mid-air since slight diagonal angles don't seem to register with grounded teleport.

 

[Sieghart]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcFSeVvWoIw&feature=youtu.be&t=2m1s

You guys have to watch the second game of this set.

edit: oops, this would have been better in the zoma thread.

Sorry for the double post but, did you guys catch the NIL out of dthrow? https://youtu.be/bcFSeVvWoIw?t=9m5s
At least I think that's what it is. It doesn't look like the uair AI unless I'm just really bad at it and he used the double jump too early for it to be dair unless I'm mistaken. It looks like the NIL out of double jump that Ness can do actually. Maybe I'm making something out of nothing.

 

[Wreckarooni]

Sieghart Okay yea I agree NIL teleports can be easy, but not the horizontal ones from standing/moving, otherwise you should see every Mewtwo doing them instead of the small jump 4 lag land, and the laggy no jump ones. Wasn't really asking about the angle.... ??? it's just straight left or right, no need to use angles. I'm asking about the timing ONLY for horizontal ones: Is it frame perfect like the 5th frame or 6th frame or does it depend if you use a button to jump, is there drift from using analog stick Up to jump, etc... and yes Teleport OoS is a bit slow.

If anyone else can maybe give some insight to my questions if possible?

At the 9min 5sec mark I thought he did a ledge canceled Dair at first. But it's definitely not, seems to be frame perfect and NIL. What the beep? Maybe it was a Nair AI and there were dropped frames when recorded....so we don't see the landing and then shielding.

Personally I find Ledge canceled dair to be quite easy because of how it contorts his body above the plat.

 

[MookieRah]

Wreckarooni
For brevity's sake I will refer to standing NIL teleports as SNILT.

While working on SNILTs is definitely not a bad idea, it's likely not what you should be working on. I say that because a standard jump canceled teleport has 4 frames of lag, as you know and already pointed out. I don't know the mechanics of how SNILTs work, but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt and say that it can only happen on the first frame of squat jump, making a SNILTs 5 frames faster than your average jump canceled one.

5 frames is less than 1/10th of a second. Generally speaking, if your teleport would be unsafe with a jump canceled teleport it will still be unsafe with SNILT. Teleport also isn't instant even if it is a SNILT, so it's not like it will grant you many (if any) followups afterwards in some sort of crazy combo situation either. So even if you could do SNILTs every time, you wouldn't be much better off than you are now. You are much better off spending more time working on other tech/other practice that is more beneficial in the long run.

If you can't convert like Zoma (or better) then you should probably work on your combos. Also, I think M2's tech chase game is stellar and is something that I'd recommend working on as well. Have you mastered edge canceled teleports yet? If not, those are more likely to lead into cool **** and seem to be a lot less situational than SNILTs.

 

[ihasabuket]

Anyways I can only achieve it by using a X/Y to jump and then doing the Up B. When I try to only use the analog stick and B it seems to never for me no matter any variation of timing/delay until I hit B to start the teleport (is there drift from holding a direction?). I also noticed that when I'm dashing or fast walking my accuracy in achieving a horizontal NIL teleport goes WAY up (this makes no sense but it's true for me)

It's probably because youre jumping, buffering a DJ with tap jump and then teleporting.

I was told Teleport OoS isn't a good option anyways.

I mean it's not particularly fast but it's good against characters like marth and falcon that use spaced pressure. I usually retreat to platforms if I use teleport OoS.

 

[MookieRah]

I forgot to mention about teleport OoS. You are vulnerable for 8 frames after you start your teleport animation, which is a lot when you account for shield stun as well. It's virtually never safe on a frame data level. It's not useless though as it can work in situations in which you can generally count on your opponent to not spam attacks.

I don't think I use teleport OoS that often, but I have a ton of vids up so there are surely good examples (and probably a few bad ones too) on there. I use wavedash OoS A LOT though, it is the most versatile movement option from shield.

Speaking of videos, I have a lot of videos that I haven't posted that I have uploaded to youtube but haven't posted or made public. I was wondering if you guys would be interested in seeing them, and if so should I make a thread for them? I pretty much record everything that I play on netplay, which is probably an average of 45 minutes of matches per night.

 

[Wreckarooni]

Wreckarooni
For brevity's sake I will refer to standing NIL teleports as SNILT.

While working on SNILTs is definitely not a bad idea, it's likely not what you should be working on. I say that because a standard jump canceled teleport has 4 frames of lag, as you know and already pointed out. I don't know the mechanics of how SNILTs work, but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt and say that it can only happen on the first frame of squat jump, making a SNILTs 5 frames faster than your average jump canceled one.

5 frames is less than 1/10th of a second. Generally speaking, if your teleport would be unsafe with a jump canceled teleport it will still be unsafe with SNILT. Teleport also isn't instant even if it is a SNILT, so it's not like it will grant you many (if any) followups afterwards in some sort of crazy combo situation either. So even if you could do SNILTs every time, you wouldn't be much better off than you are now. You are much better off spending more time working on other tech/other practice that is more beneficial in the long run.

If you can't convert like Zoma (or better) then you should probably work on your combos. Also, I think M2's tech chase game is stellar, and is something that I'd recommend working on as well. Have you mastered edge canceled teleports yet? If not, those are more likely to lead into cool **** and seem to be a lot less situational than SNILTs.

I can respect that that's your opinion. But all mewtwo's don't have to be the same though, in fact it's better that we master different things as time permits to cometogether and see what works best.

However you are forgetting a few things though -

1. the time it takes to land from the air amounts to about 1-3 extra frames depending on if you FF or not and also even more if you don't to it frame perfect once airborne. Making it overall slower by 7-9 frames (the same length as the grounded teleport).

2. The real important point IMO - If you do it about frame perfect you are visible once you appear for 24-25 frames instead of 18-19 frames when you SNILT. 5-6 frames can make a big difference, also btw the grounded teleport is 28 frame visible....that's even less of a difference between those 2. So by that logic (the same "negligible" difference) why not just do that always instead of jumping. Those two overall are actually the same speed when you account for jumping and landing lag.

I have pretty much all the fundamentals down, you do sound like you are assuming quite a bit even when you prefaced your paragraphed saying your weren't. I know a solid foundation is the bedrock for all the higher level tech which provides what I consider critical options and ambiguity against higher level players.

 

[MookieRah]

When I say that there are better things to practice than SNILTs and I mention some fundamental stuff, I don't intend to imply that you don't have good fundamentals. What I meant to say, and what I thought was clear, is that if you can't convert like Zoma then you will likely receive more benefit for time invested by working on situational combos as well as set combos in 20XX. That isn't an insult. I spend a lot of time working on fundamentals and my tech isn't on Zoma's level, yet I'm quite a solid M2 with overall good fundamentals. I brought up other stuff that aren't basic level stuff at all, like edge canceled teleports, and working out solid tech chasing routines.

EDIT: It should also be pointed out that there is very little cross-over tech with doing a SNILT. I don't see how mastering SNILTs would improve other areas of technical prowess. If the input process for SNILT was similar to something that was more universal then it would be far more worthwhile to train.

By all means, train how you want to train, and I'm not saying you shouldn't work on SNILT, but it is quite possibly a tech that is so demanding overall that you cannot attain a high enough level of execution to make it worth it, and even then it won't make a huge impact on your overall game as 5-6 frames is not a big enough difference to greatly alter M2's meta. If you do practice it, don't devote a ton of time per session to it, because it would definitely be something that would take time to master that technique anyways.

I think M2 mains should focus more time on what is guaranteed to make them better and simply up the overall level of M2's performance than to work on things like this which likely won't come into play until they are much more skilled anyways. What is the point of perfect SNILTs if you don't have the rest of your game on a level in which to take advantage of that frame advantage?

TL:DR - An important design principle, "Kill your darlings" comes to mind here. It means sometimes your idea isn't as good as you think it is, even if you really love it, and you are better off pursuing something else. I'm not saying this to be a jerk, I'm saying this as a person with distance from your idea and pointing out that it might not be as great as you think it is. Take that how you will.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[MookieRah]

One thing I noticed Zoma doing was bthrowing the Falcon to a side plat where he could techchase. Seems really smart and something I want to try vs spacies cause it opens up FJ rising Fair into djc fair shenanigans.

Funny how that is sorta becoming a common Marth trick to use his backthrow to trick people into missing a tech on a platform, but I haven't even thought of using Mewtwo's backthrow like that. You must have to do that at very low percents, and it likely won't work for the first couple of times due to the lengthy animation on it. Still, to land some solid low percent fair combos is worth it.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[MookieRah]

So I'm going to document some really clever **** Zoma does, cause it's amazing and we should all be doing it and taking ideas from it.

Using side B against Fox on FoD to take advantage of a low platform:
https://youtu.be/kMMc9Limu9Q?list=PLfH_x45HbLaVQXhpyRDY1f_wEQK7Ucv5O&t=70

Some sick knowledge on how nair works:
https://youtu.be/kMMc9Limu9Q?list=PLfH_x45HbLaVQXhpyRDY1f_wEQK7Ucv5O&t=172

More side B against Fox on FoD to combo into full shadowball:
https://youtu.be/kMMc9Limu9Q?list=PLfH_x45HbLaVQXhpyRDY1f_wEQK7Ucv5O&t=179

Sick timing on slow get-up attack:
https://youtu.be/kMMc9Limu9Q?list=PLfH_x45HbLaVQXhpyRDY1f_wEQK7Ucv5O&t=188

A really brave/confident dair spike:
https://youtu.be/kMMc9Limu9Q?list=PLfH_x45HbLaVQXhpyRDY1f_wEQK7Ucv5O&t=218

A STILT because why not:
https://youtu.be/kMMc9Limu9Q?list=PLfH_x45HbLaVQXhpyRDY1f_wEQK7Ucv5O&t=361

SERIOUSLY!!!!? This had to be a bit of a crap shoot, in that he knew it could hit that low but wasn't certain it would be at that point.
https://youtu.be/kMMc9Limu9Q?list=PLfH_x45HbLaVQXhpyRDY1f_wEQK7Ucv5O&t=419

Uptilt to punish grab attempt:
https://youtu.be/5P3Lchckqd8?list=PLfH_x45HbLaVQXhpyRDY1f_wEQK7Ucv5O&t=126

These are the teleport shenanigans to focus on:
https://youtu.be/5P3Lchckqd8?list=PLfH_x45HbLaVQXhpyRDY1f_wEQK7Ucv5O&t=148

Watch how he follows the Fox so well and cuts off so many options!
https://youtu.be/5P3Lchckqd8?list=PLfH_x45HbLaVQXhpyRDY1f_wEQK7Ucv5O&t=167

Another STILT:
https://youtu.be/5P3Lchckqd8?list=PLfH_x45HbLaVQXhpyRDY1f_wEQK7Ucv5O&t=185

Why jump canceled teleports aren't much worse than STILT:
https://youtu.be/5P3Lchckqd8?list=PLfH_x45HbLaVQXhpyRDY1f_wEQK7Ucv5O&t=195

The execution of his BF teleport shenanigans is maximum:
https://youtu.be/5P3Lchckqd8?list=PLfH_x45HbLaVQXhpyRDY1f_wEQK7Ucv5O&t=225

Because you can't have enough edge canceled teleports:
https://youtu.be/5P3Lchckqd8?list=PLfH_x45HbLaVQXhpyRDY1f_wEQK7Ucv5O&t=243

This didn't work, but I'm sure it could:
https://youtu.be/5P3Lchckqd8?list=PLfH_x45HbLaVQXhpyRDY1f_wEQK7Ucv5O&t=301

Fall-through platform disable. Legit safe way to possibly get a huge punish.
https://youtu.be/5P3Lchckqd8?list=PLfH_x45HbLaVQXhpyRDY1f_wEQK7Ucv5O&t=355

So that is only two of the 8 videos and it showcases a lot of innovation and excellent execution. It also shows kinda what I was saying about STILTs earlier, in that even Zoma isn't making great use of them right now; however, edge cancelled teleports are clearly legit next level ****. They are better than STILT because they stop you in the path of the teleport where the edge is, meaning that it cuts down on the total teleport time as well as remove the landing lag. That leads to crazy stuff.

EDIT:
Comboing into forward smash whaat?
https://youtu.be/XJvZhQU0QIk?list=PLfH_x45HbLaVQXhpyRDY1f_wEQK7Ucv5O&t=388

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[MookieRah]

That is quite cool info. Be sure to post back here after you've done some testing.

Quick question, has anyone checked out the relative safety of a dtilt (various hitboxes) to fair cross-up on shield? I just had this idea before I had to go down to make lunch, so I can't work on it myself. It is likely unsafe, especially if they are crouch canceling, but what I want to find out is 'how' unsafe it is. If the window of opportunity is so small that my opponent would not be able to capitalize on it often than it would be something to go for. I'm thinking that as long as you can fair so that you cross up your opponent the pressure would likely be safe and you can continue with tilts or whatever on your opponent's back side after that. It would be nice if a dtilt could at least hit-confirm into free pressure, and then it means that we could almost always go for that setup as it's beneficial if it hits them or their shield.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[SuperShus]

mookie rah could you turn all those youtube videos into gfycats or is that too much of a problem?

its just way more annoying to open youtube than gfycat :o

 

[MookieRah]

Yeah. I'll try to do that. Definitely a better solution than linking to YouTube.

On another note, you guys have any advice against crouch canceling Sheiks that know how to not get shield grabbed? A crewmate of mine is wising up to the M2 matchup and it is becoming more and more difficult to say the least.

 

[ihasabuket]

Yeah. I'll try to do that. Definitely a better solution than linking to YouTube.

On another note, you guys have any advice against crouch canceling Sheiks that know how to not get shield grabbed? A crewmate of mine is wising up to the M2 matchup and it is becoming more and more difficult to say the least.

I use a lot of nair and bair in this MU. Since nair is multihit it cant be CC'd and the landing hitbox breaks ASDI down at 20%. Pivot DJC bair is really nice to catch WDs back.
You can punish fair walling by just walking forward and tilting whiffs or with a SH rising bair to space with the tip; Great thing about rising bair is that you can act before you touch the ground so you can rising bair -> DJC or waveland, plus it lets you use mewtwo's good air mobility to fade away.
If they hit my shield with a safe fair I usually try to roll, teleport, or WD OoS to get to center stage. If I know theyre gonna fair and dash away I'll sometimes WD forward and dtilt or throw a SB if its charged.

 

[MookieRah]

I ihasabuket
While that is good info, I was hoping for a ground based solution. I came to the conclusion last night that upsmash might be the answer that I was seeking, for much the same reason nair would also work. I was wondering why Zoma was using upsmash as much as he did, especially when he had other options that could potentially combo better in certain situations. But now that I think about it more, I think he upsmashes to dissuade his opponents from CC'ing everything. Even though it's likely better for them to keep CCing, it's very possible that their natural reaction to eating upsmash is similar to that of Peach's downsmash.

As it stands, if we don't have a counter to CC it's very hard for Mewtwo to get anything going really. I really think I have a pretty good grab game, but if that is my only option it leaves me quite 1-dimensional.

Also, do you have any vids in which you use bair in neutral? It has never worked for me in the past, and is quite clunky in situations where I use it now. That said, I admit that I haven't spent time working on applications in 20XX, so it's not as if I have fully explored it in any meaningful way. It would simply be helpful to see it's application in practice rather than on paper.

--------

On another note, Mewtwo can beat Marth dtilts with a properly DJC'd fair. If they are spamming away, dash dance them to bait it out and then hop over the dtilt and scratch him in the nose. I did that three times in a row to a Marth last night and it got him to stop dtilting all the time xD. I'm beginning to think that the Marth matchup isn't that bad at all, as I've found so many holes in Marth and he's fairly easy to combo and gimp.

@Melee Mewtwo
Also, cross-up DJC fairs are legit. They are just fairly situational because it's rare that you can get in that close, but when you do it's a really good option because it applies pressure if you hit their shield while getting behind them, or if you land a hit you can dash in and get a grab/combo depending on the situation.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[ihasabuket]

Also, do you have any vids in which you use bair in neutral? It has never worked for me in the past, and is quite clunky in situations where I use it now. That said, I admit that I haven't spent time working on applications in 20XX, so it's not as if I have fully explored it in any meaningful way. It would simply be helpful to see it's application in practice rather than on paper.

Unfortunately I dont have any way to record myself.

Nair actually can be CC'd and there's a single frame between hits where a Fox could technically shine you out of it. It's only happened to me once or twice but that's how I noticed it could even happen. What's more annoying about Nair being CC'd is that it won't knockdown until really high percents. Since it's multihit, just having the asdi down during one of the hits can lead into a full-blown CC before the final hit comes out. It's still safe since they get pushed away super far but you won't be getting any follow ups after it which sucks. Just a heads up.

I was really confused when you wrote this so I went to test it again and I think I found your problem. If you dont have forward momentum it'll push sheik away making some aerial hits and the landing hitbox miss. Try it again with just a regular dash SHFFL nair instead of DJC nair. You can do it with DJC nair too you just have to slingshot forward before you nair. Nair hits every 4 frames which is the time spent land canceling after ASDI down. This plus the 2 extra frames enemies are in hitlag because of electric attacks makes it impossible for the opponent to punish the gaps in nair if your hits are connecting.

Edit: to make sure im fastfalling and make the landing hitbox connect, I always hit down multiple times to fastfall. This might help too.

 

[SuperShus]

what about charging shadow ball miltihit for anti-crouch cancelling? more of a trick/mix-up than a solution,
disable? sh disable has quite a bit of range and cc has no effect on it.

 

[ihasabuket]

what about charging shadow ball miltihit for anti-crouch cancelling? more of a trick/mix-up than a solution,
disable? sh disable has quite a bit of range and cc has no effect on it.

It'd sure be great against ASDI but a crouching sheik cant be hit by disable because she's too low to the ground. Same thing goes for upsmash, sheik can duck under it. Charging SB could be good though.

 

[MookieRah]

what about charging shadow ball miltihit for anti-crouch cancelling?

I've been experimenting with this for a while and it does indeed wreck CC; however it's tough to land. It's hitbox functions better than most people would think, but it doesn't provide much protection against common aerial offense. That said, If it does land you can usually cancel and get a grab, but that is deceptively hard as it doesn't seem to register the cancel when you press it but at some kind of weird interval.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[Temkin]

Wow left for almost a year and this thread blew up. Sorry I left you guys. Back to help out the meta hopefully. Got a lot of catching up to do.

 

[ihasabuket]

Wow left for almost a year and this thread blew up. Sorry I left you guys. Back to help out the meta hopefully. Got a lot of catching up to do.

You might have to literally start from the beginning of this thread. There are also other threads like siegharts pivot tilt threads, zoma videos and some already outdated MU threads.
You can help by reading these and testing these things. If you can provide some recorded matches.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[SuperShus]

I asked him on twitter how he chooses

 

[MookieRah]

Mewtwo hero Zoma. Now if only Taj will come back in spectacular fashion we'd all be set.

edit: zoma only seems to feel confident in his Mewtwo in the Fox/Falco matchups.

Not CF too? He had tons of matches against CF last time at that smashfest. I would think he'd be included, but maybe not.

I don't blame him though. The thing that M2 does well against heavies is combo them to crap while also being able to edge-guard them into oblivion. There isn't nearly as much you can do against the rest of the cast combo-wise, even less for the truly floaty characters.