Advancing the Mewtwo Meta Game

[Deleted member 212841]

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[ihasabuket]

How useful is mewtwo's CC on shine? Does his traction send him far enough to avoid true combos or at least bring up shield? It'd be nice to know his frame advantage to see what you can do.

Edit: Something interesting i found out some time ago but forgot to mention. When shine knocks you down you can actually employ DI. If you DI up, shine will actually launch mewtwo slightly up and there is a brief moment before you hit the ground. Not that useful but it got me wondering if you cant DI moves before the knockdown threshold; This could be the reason for ASDI's implementation.
Anyway, it could be useful to know if you whiff an attack by the ledge so you can go over the ground and offstage to avoid a techchase and grab ledge.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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[ihasabuket]

It's +5 for Fox. If he does a good wavedash he's likely to get another shine in which will knock you down if you are still holding down by then. It's sort of spacing dependent, however, since Mewtwo has this reel back animation that'll let him avoid a second shine if Fox didn't hit him close enough with the first one. Super interesting question since I was wondering if Mewtwo's low traction would allow him to avoid waveshine combos if he was heavy enough to not get knocked down. (although, I'm not sure if CC is really comparable to having a higher weight at all lol)

Wait, plus 5 after waveshine right? I was thinking it might help to use double stick DI using ASDI away and crouching since ASDI down doesnt do anything against spikes. Since CC is a preemptive tactic and you can use the Z button instead of A it seems practical.

Also, I edited my previous post if you didnt already notice. Please read it.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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[Deleted member 212841]

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[ihasabuket]

I thought Fox might have a bit more than a +5 frame advantage because of electric move hitlag. So I looked at the formula for hitlag and noticed something.

Hitlag = floor{floor{floor{(Damage * 0.3333334 + 3)} * Electric} * CC}

Electric = 1.5 if the attack is of electric element. 1.0 at all times for attacker, however.

CC = 2/3rd for victim only if victim is currently Crouch Canceling

CC reduces hitlag I never knew this. This means that if you CC a fox soft nair you experience 3 frames of hitlag while he experiences 5. Ive been calculating the frame advantage for CC wrong all this time.

 

[RaynEX]

Was at Kirbykaze's house yesterday for weekly practice and was toying around with Mewtwo things. I happened upon some useful techniques. These may already be known but I'll share my findings anyway:



- Sheik can alter the length of her teleport by tilting the control stick vs not tilting it. I tested it with Mewtwo on battlefield, and we can do it as well! I was trying to recreate Zoma's teleport edge-cancelling rountine, but at specific points I kept teleporting too far. It's now become apparent to me that he's tilting Up on the stick very slightly, then another direction very slightly. It's really really hard, but you can see it's effects easily on battlefield. There are at least 4 different lengths of teleport that I was able to create:

*Stand in the center of Battlefield, on the base of the level, directly underneath the top platform. Then UpB straight upwards.

> UpB normally, you land on the top platform with heavy landing lag. This one is useless
> UpB as if you were utilting, your body appears halfway through the platform (it bisects Mewtwo's body around his waist)
> UpB and tilt the stick further up and you almost land on the plat. This is the length Zoma uses for most of his edge stuff
> UpB and tilt the stick as high as you can without hitting Up directly, you do an INSTANT LAND with NO LAG. I'm talking you can move after 4 frames of typically landing lag and techchase Marth after uthrow, or continue combos that otherwise wouldn't be possible. This actually blew my mind. But it's really hard, and you probably need different setups for each level.

- During edge-guards, every now and then I would need to refresh my invincibility frames to finish the stock with an invul ledgedrop aerial. The fastest method I found to refresh ledge-frames is to hit down+back on the control stick, then up+forward+B. This creates a pseudo teleport stall effect, where you teleport in place and re-grab the edge without moving anywhere (almost as if you airdodged in place). It's probably not tight enough that it's a true shino stall, but it's really useful to quickly re-grab the edge and get back invincibility if you have the time.

- Reverse uair is incredible for edge-guarding. I was using it similar to reverse uair with Falcon / Ganon and I was surprised at how far it reached. In situations where hitting a bair is a stretch, reverse uair does the job really well and does considerable knockback at higher percents.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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[ihasabuket]

I knew that mewtwo could shorten his teleport but i didnt know it had 4 different lengths. A former mewtwo player named prof liked to do upthrow teleport to top platform regrab on dreamland against fastfallers.

 

[ihasabuket]

I've been experimenting with buffer jump OoS using the cstick. I came up with a much easier way to do pivot aerials. Basically instead of doing a regular pivot you can shield pivot and hit up on the cstick leaving the control stick free to perform an analog jump.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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[Deleted member 212841]

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[Deleted member 212841]

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[Deleted member 212841]

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[Super4ng]

Was at Kirbykaze's house yesterday for weekly practice and was toying around with Mewtwo things. I happened upon some useful techniques. These may already be known but I'll share my findings anyway:



- Sheik can alter the length of her teleport by tilting the control stick vs not tilting it. I tested it with Mewtwo on battlefield, and we can do it as well! I was trying to recreate Zoma's teleport edge-cancelling rountine, but at specific points I kept teleporting too far. It's now become apparent to me that he's tilting Up on the stick very slightly, then another direction very slightly. It's really really hard, but you can see it's effects easily on battlefield. There are at least 4 different lengths of teleport that I was able to create:

*Stand in the center of Battlefield, on the base of the level, directly underneath the top platform. Then UpB straight upwards.

> UpB normally, you land on the top platform with heavy landing lag. This one is useless
> UpB as if you were utilting, your body appears halfway through the platform (it bisects Mewtwo's body around his waist)
> UpB and tilt the stick further up and you almost land on the plat. This is the length Zoma uses for most of his edge stuff
> UpB and tilt the stick as high as you can without hitting Up directly, you do an INSTANT LAND with NO LAG. I'm talking you can move after 4 frames of typically landing lag and techchase Marth after uthrow, or continue combos that otherwise wouldn't be possible. This actually blew my mind. But it's really hard, and you probably need different setups for each level.

- During edge-guards, every now and then I would need to refresh my invincibility frames to finish the stock with an invul ledgedrop aerial. The fastest method I found to refresh ledge-frames is to hit down+back on the control stick, then up+forward+B. This creates a pseudo teleport stall effect, where you teleport in place and re-grab the edge without moving anywhere (almost as if you airdodged in place). It's probably not tight enough that it's a true shino stall, but it's really useful to quickly re-grab the edge and get back invincibility if you have the time.

- Reverse uair is incredible for edge-guarding. I was using it similar to reverse uair with Falcon / Ganon and I was surprised at how far it reached. In situations where hitting a bair is a stretch, reverse uair does the job really well and does considerable knockback at higher percents.

You can get the same effect of the lagless landing on the top platform by slightly tilting the teleport Instead of going straight up. It's that Mewtwo l has more difficult angles than Fox does.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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[ihasabuket]

Okay, I did a quick test in debug (so everything unstaled) on a NTSC Fox at 70%. It was just to see if something could work, not to determine the percent limits for which it does. Anyways, what I wanted to see is if Mewtwo could introduce a DI trap to the dtilt -> dsmash combo. It turns out that, yes, if a Fox uses survival DI after the dtilt you can follow up with a weak DJC uair that will combo into Dsmash.

Now, my question for you guys is do you think that dmash (or fsmash since the knockback stays very close to dsmash at most percents) is fast enough for this DI trap to actually work on somebody experienced in the matchup? I'm unsure if the Fox player can initially input combo DI in case of Uair while being able to react to the smash attack fast enough to input survival DI. Keep in mind both moves have a grunt sfx at the very first frame of the animation. I'm not too sure what numbers I should assume for adequate reaction time and ability to shift DI to determine the answer on my own. I also don't have the Mewtwo expertise and the good Fox player with matchup experience to put it to the test.

In any case, combo DI for the DJC Uair leads to a tech chase scenario which is definitely still a favorable position for Mewtwo.

There was a study on simple vs recognition vs choice reaction time. Simple reaction is one where you know whats going to happen and what youre going to do, all you need to do is time it. The average time for a simple reaction is 12-15 frames. In this case a player would be making a choice reaction. Recognition between two things alone takes about 23 frames. Im not sure how much it is exactly but it would take much more than 23 frames. Here's a study on it if you're interested
http://www.fon.hum.uva.nl/rob/Cours.../biae.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/Lab/110/reaction.htm

 

[ihasabuket]

I just thought of something. Because of how reaction time works Fox has to guess how to follow up a shine depending on whether or not mewtwo CCs. If fox tries to shine thunder's combo and you CC'ed the shine you can ASDI the jab and punish.

PS: I dont know if anyones seen this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA8K6ip2Jvg It's not the same taj vs sfat set that was on the evo 2013 stream.

 

[Sieghart]

Okay, I did a quick test in debug (so everything unstaled) on a NTSC Fox at 70%. It was just to see if something could work, not to determine the percent limits for which it does. Anyways, what I wanted to see is if Mewtwo could introduce a DI trap to the dtilt -> dsmash combo. It turns out that, yes, if a Fox uses survival DI after the dtilt you can follow up with a weak DJC uair that will combo into Dsmash.

Now, my question for you guys is do you think that dmash (or fsmash since the knockback stays very close to dsmash at most percents) is fast enough for this DI trap to actually work on somebody experienced in the matchup? I'm unsure if the Fox player can initially input combo DI in case of Uair while being able to react to the smash attack fast enough to input survival DI. Keep in mind both moves have a grunt sfx at the very first frame of the animation. I'm not too sure what numbers I should assume for adequate reaction time and ability to shift DI to determine the answer on my own. I also don't have the Mewtwo expertise and the good Fox player with matchup experience to put it to the test.

In any case, combo DI for the DJC Uair leads to a tech chase scenario which is definitely still a favorable position for Mewtwo.

I'll be sure to try it out purposefully since the people I play against are definitely experienced in the M2 matchup since I teach it to them. That being said, in my experience, I've never played a Fox that could react to the dsmash with survival DI if they DI'd for the combo. I never thought of it might be a DI trap before you mentioned it but I'd assume it is until proven otherwise.

I must once again thank you for the tech chase write-up, though. I'm quite confident I'd have quit M2 or at least switched mains if I hadn't learned it.

 

[ihasabuket]

If this true combos into dsmash you can also use down b right? It's got a super low send angle, might be worth trying out.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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[ihasabuket]

Yeah I just checked again, I must have looked at the wrong move. Again, i still dont have a setup so im stuck theorizing using only masterhand and math.

I know disable isnt all that useful but I still wanna explore the option however situational it may be. I can see it being useful if you get a fair at early %s near the ledge for a potential gimp. It seems like a good DI mixup to the usual DJC fair/upair chains although it could be hard to setup. I have an idea for a setup though.
I've mentioned before that on fastfallers you can do a FJ(full jump) rising fair that carries em above the platform where you can followup with a DJC aerial on the platform. Great thing about this is that you can drift to follow their DI and you end up closer than doing DJC aerials on the floor, allowing you to combo instead of letting the opponent tech on the platform.
Now I suspect that at some mid % range you can do a FJ rising fair into the disable hit.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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[ihasabuket]

- DJC Fair -> Disable does work! It starts working on NTSC Fox at 15% (maybe a percent or two earlier) before the unstaled Fair. You will have to be frame perfect to catch him that early, though. (PS: also it was no DI Fox, that's kinda important to mention, lol)

I think if you dont DJC so low to the ground you might be able to use the forward DJC momentum to cover away DI. Im thinking there are a few ways to do this and minimize the time spent airborne. I dont know if it'd be better to fastfall later or FJ DCJFF to cover more horizontal space with DJC momentum.
Anyway, if this does work well, youll be in a good position to cover DI away. Since fair sends at 84 degrees, DI behind mewtwo wont get him far especially since he'd be in front of mewtwo to begin with. No DI shouldnt really be a problem you can probably just dash back and adjust your spacing(if needed) using DJC. Or if he's directly behind and above mewtwo you can probably pivot shield instead.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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[Deleted member 212841]

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[Sieghart]

I suppose it's worth noting that the tip of any tilt is M2's best shot at a jab reset, they each do 5%. I was too lazy to really do any of the proper testing aside from getting it with ftilt in play a few times today vs Fox. That being said I did glance at Crazy Hand and, unless I'm mistaken, Ftilt (0 BKB;100 KBG) should be the best jab reset option followed by Dtilt (40 BKB; 80 KBG) then Utilt ( 40 BKB;100 KBG). Correct me if I'm wrong, of course.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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[ihasabuket]

Finally got to play a little today and I just realized how much better upair AI is for platform movement than DJC nair AI. Ive also been working on my shai drops to use in tandem with teleport. Being right below a side platform is such a good position for edgecancels and it makes your destination real ambiguous especially when you FF waveland as a movement mixup.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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[ihasabuket]

Trying to wavedash oos forward between Falco lasers has to be frame perfect if you want to sheild the next laser. Even then, if the Falco short hops forward for the second laser then you will get hit before you can put your sheild up. Also, this test was assuming two late lasers. It's very possible that Falco shoots a late laser followed by a slightly earlier laser to beat the frame perfect wd forward.

There are two things youcan do to help act OoS almost frame perfect consistently. The first one is using cstick to buffer jump OoS instead of X/Y. The second thing might be a personal problem but the sound of falco shooting a laser throws my timing off so I try to listen to music while I play.

It might be good to Crouch armor a laser and throw out a tilt as a mixup. Uptilt could be good here.

 

[SuperShus]

ok just saying since my roommie plays falco, and he dl from the edge a lot

just get hit by the first one and PS the second one, wd oos and do anything.
the 4% is really inconsequential compared to his ez mode 80% combos on you, and trying to do the shield wd shield wd stuff is just gonna get you hit lmao.
also falcos who are good with the dl from the edge are going to do the lasers close together and low not high and late so the frame perfect scenario is irrelevant anyway.

if youve got falco on the edge i think its good to wd in a bit an pressure with ftilt at higher percents, or charge shadow ball or wd in shield grab/dtilt at lower percents. he's the one who has to come off the ledge, dont go over and get him just wait for him to come on and wreck himself on you. and if he is coming up onto that side plat on yoshis or battle field zoma does fj djc fairs or idjc uairs and I think that's pretty smart

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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[SuperShus]

yeah, as far as shffl lasers, in my opinion you should just time a dash for right after them, because the crappiest thing about m2s dash is that its 18 frames long, and if falco is interrupting your dash animation to put you in wait, hell, i'm all for it because then i can instant dtilt if im in range after he lasers

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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[ihasabuket]

Honestly I like to just stay on platforms when I play against falcos with any character. I typically do this until I see an opening to land a shield drop aerial or take center stage. The nice thing is that falcos lack of air mobility makes it hard for falco to hit you without being almost directly under you. He either has to hit you with a FJ aerial or with some SH rising aerial; Only rising upair can hit you except on yoshis and PS where rising bair will hit. You're also relatively safe from grabs as falco would have to waveland first and he wouldnt have the aid from his lasers to set em up. Another nice thing is that while he has to FJ and go through massive endlag midar, you can always dash around on the platform with the option to shai drop -> aerial and Lcancel it. The transition(as in the animations) of dashdancing into a shai drop is so subtle that you cant really react to it. Plus you have hella mixups like tomahawk grab, waveland, or waveland back on the platform. Also mewtwo obviously gets the benefit of having faster punishes OoS and faster aerials.

Try playing the MU like this and tell me what you guys think.

 

[ShadowKing]

Hmmmmm.....Mewtwo might be light but that can help him escape combos. Another thing is his bair of stage can stop space animals from recovering plus his dsmash comes out at a pretty decent speed so he'll be able to stop there side b

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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[Deleted member 212841]

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