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Advancing the Mewtwo Meta Game
- Thread starter Gandhi Jam
- Start date
well falcons up air is pretty predictable since it comes after a throw and/or 3,4 times in a row, so getting that multiple DI shouldn't be too hard.
I guess I'll test it later with 2gccs and 20xx frame by frame if no one has the answer.
Sieghart
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 14, 2015
- Messages
- 173
Any tips on converting out of M2 movement? I've been on the grind lately and my teleports are pretty on point in regards to both edge cancels and NILs. NILs definitely need work, though. I use blu2gruts TAS videos as example when practicing.The problem is that there's often times no offensive merit to any of it. Can you guys think of specific instances, or even respectably broad generalizes, of when we could implement this to do something like cover options or continue a combo?
I'll start being more conscious of my efforts in this on my own but I figure asking people more experienced would be worthwhile.
I'll start being more conscious of my efforts in this on my own but I figure asking people more experienced would be worthwhile.
D
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ihasabuket
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2015
- Messages
- 321
Prof would always up throw spacies to the top platform and teleport onto it to get a techchase or regrab. Remember to react to their DI before you actually decide to teleport. He also uses teleport to get to the others side of the stage after he sends them offstage.
Memorize all your teleport options onto platforms using angles and shortened teleports too. For instance, if you want to go straight up on the yoshis top platform you do shortened teleport fastfall. But if you want to get to the left/right side of the top platform while youre in the middle of the stage you do shortened teleport at the angle just after 90 degrees(the top notch). If youre under the side platforms you can do SH full teleports diagonally. You can also go from the top platform to under the side platforms so long as the side platform isnt in the way. You can also move from side platforms by running off DJ(with the control stick) telporting; If you did it right youll NIL. The thing is, if youre going to be using platforms you need to be good at shield drop punishes. Just watch aMsa. If you incorporate shield drop punishes to your mewtwo, neutral should be a lot easier. In fact, now that i think about it mewtwo has some great options with shield drops. You can chargecancel shield drop into an aerial or teleport. That way you get some reward for platform movement that goes unpunished. The teleport techchasing seems like it has potential too but i think it needs to be developed and it's hard to excecute.
Last edited:
Bandit Croco
Smash Rookie
Soooo Scrumpy recently posted this. Has some interesting things in it. hopefully we see a video like 600 hours.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNBnj7srte4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNBnj7srte4
ihasabuket
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2015
- Messages
- 321
Interesting, he does reverse charge on the end of a platform to cover every tech option. Why the **** havent we thought of this? Even if it is only when someone falls on one end of a platform it's still a great setup especially if you have the SB partially charged already.
Sieghart
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 14, 2015
- Messages
- 173
People have thought of it. Most of them have either quit M2 or stopped playing the game 8 or so years ago though lol.
ihasabuket
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2015
- Messages
- 321
I meant we as in the people in this thread
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Gandhi Jam
Smash Rookie
There is some really interesting stuff here. Shadow ball tech chases is something I've never thought of before. Gotta hit the lab now.
ihasabuket
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2015
- Messages
- 321
Was playing around with disable and I found that the horizontal range of disable lets you hit from one end of the platforms on PS to the other while both mewtwo and any other character are standing up. I assume that if theyre knocked down you can cover the whole platform with disable on the side platforms of any legal stage. This is a great option in case you need to kill a fastfaller off the side as opposed to hitting an aerial that might not kill.
EDIT: I also messed around with dash attack. If you dash attack against an edge you can hold forward or back to fall off the platform immediately after and then DJC in the other direction. This could make for some interesting followup options. Dash attack is really freaking good especially late dash attack against fast fallers since it has so little endlag.
EDIT: I also messed around with dash attack. If you dash attack against an edge you can hold forward or back to fall off the platform immediately after and then DJC in the other direction. This could make for some interesting followup options. Dash attack is really freaking good especially late dash attack against fast fallers since it has so little endlag.
Last edited:
MewtwoForce
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2015
- Messages
- 51
I've got some things helpful and speculative to bring up here.
Let me throw a hard curveball your way. Have you guys taken a hard look at how you are practicing and asked yourselves "Is this good enough? Is what i'm doing effective practice?"
If the underlying philosophy behind how you train isn't effective enough to make you win, or if you're not making sure the training is good enough to reach a skill level necessary to win or perform at a certain level then theres a real danger here. The danger and MAJOR frustration being, no matter how much you practice, or try and grind, if the practice isn't designed to be effective it won't get you good. Ever.
Think about it. Are you spending 2 hours a day practicing in a way GUARANTEED to prevent you from getting good enough? How pointless is that?
Well what i'm going to assert is that this is in fact most likely the case.
So, how do you start training in a way that starts getting you really good? This broadcast right here is a good start. It is an hour and forty minutes long and mango himself is in it. The main focus of this broadcast is how to improve as effectively as possible. If you care at all about getting better, watch it right now. http://www.twitch.tv/meleeitonme/b/471089168
There are related videos on this page where PPMD talks about improving at the game as well. Find as many guides and threads and videos on improving as you possibly can by top players.
Performance psychology is very good for helping you get around tournament nerves and practice and play better. Begin looking for youtube videos and other resources on defeating anxiety and playing at peak performance. Things like this. They're out there. They're real. And they're helpful. You will have a MUCH harder time choking and you need this if you have insecurities playing to win with mewtwo. All the tech skill in the world won't help you if you shut down in a tournament match because "Its just not mewtwos place to do well in tournaments" screaming in your head.
WOAH. HEY! WAIT A SECOND!
Did you go write down on paper or type on your computer a reminder to look for performance psychology vids and top player guides on the game? Are you making absolutely sure you WILL do this when you are done reading this? No? Don't progress in reading this until you do.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
STOP
Scroll back up if you have not watched this broadcast yet and written down everything it says about improving at smash. Don't be that guy procrastinating in threads on smashboards because hes lost his love of getting better and lost the drive to play.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some notes I found especially game changing from this broadcast
1- Smash is like an MMO and its got stats. In an MMO you've got stats for attack, stats for defense, stats for speed, etc.
In an MMO you can train those stats. Well some people put more training into one stat than the others. Say, more attack so they're a warrior. Some put in way more speed so they can be a thief, some into defense so they're a tank.
A big mistake in smash is doing that. Out of a hypothetical 20 levels In smash you want a 20 in techskill. A 20 in edge guarding. A 20 in DI. A 20 in your punish game. A 20 in your grab game. ETC.
In other words, make sure your training is comprehensively designed to touch down on every important element of the game. If its not, then you're not training certain important things AT ALL because your training isn't touching down on them, or they're not training the part well enough.
Another very important thing is you need to keep evolving the danger and power of the ideas behind the use of your techskill until you know you are wielding these options in ways that are strong enough to start winning. Having the techskill with poor usage ideas behind it isn't good enough.
Don't have 20 in mindgames and 2 in punish game. You don't win or even have nearly as much fun that way.
2. Here is a common very dangerous problem in how people train at the game these days. An infinite loop of briefly touching down on a new skill and forgetting that skill because you
A- Waited too long before practicing again
B- Didn't practice it enough the first time before moving on to something else
I see it all the time. People training by switching between dash dancing, to combo game, to edge guards and tech chasing all in the course of 30 minutes. By the time an hour is over since they played, they will have pretty much forgotten most if not all of it because it went into their short term memory. No! At best I would say that should come after you already know how to do it for sure.
3. THIS IS A BIG ONE. Working on more advanced concepts in gameplay without having learned "save for TAS tier stuff" ALL the fundamental necessary advanced techskill for the game and your character. Techskill is at the root of how you do almost anything in the game. You can't practice anything without it.
Want to focus practicing on comboing? How? Your tech sucks! You can't even practicing comboing if you don't have the tech to combo with. Approach game? How! Your tech sucks! See what I mean? You can't progress and do practically ANYTHING in your practice until the tech is there to practice with in the first place. Get that techskill! And yes you do need to practice the techskill options of moving in general. This makes your character way faster and more percise. Any person not practicing movement accuracy and speed will be clumsier and easier to react to and land a hit on.
Work on your techskill one techskill at a time. And importantly, do not proceed in training until you are using that techskill well. That is your only goal. Learn that one thing for now and nothing else. Choose the most basic and fundamental things you cannot do right now and practice those. Don't be fancy yet. There is other advice in the vid on ways to practice other things. BE humble. Don't say "My wavedashing is good enough." Is it? GO CHECK. If you have one hole in your wavedash skill or philosophy on using it thats going to hurt you alot.
4. In order to become innovative and pioneer the character you must start experimenting a lot and thinking about what these different things can do with an open mind. What this means is you don't want to keep going down the same road and picking those options over and over again if being innovative is your goal. Keep trying things you normally never do in the game to open up new experience and the potential for ideas.
I started thinking about for example, ways I should use shadowball that I never use shadowball for, or things I want to do differently in situations when I normally want to shadowball. That was helpful in evolving how I will use shadowball on people in the future.
End of the video segment part
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
elephant in the room- IF YOU WANT TO MAIN MEWTWO AND YOU HAVEN"T GONE TO A TOURNAMENT N THE LAST MONTH, SCHEDULE A TOURNAMENT AS SOON AS YOU CAN AFTER READING THIS. DO NOT switch to a secondary at any point, even if you get JV5'd in game 1 of grand finals. The tournament bracket games are the ultimate proving grounds of how well the mewtwo is doing. You want that feedback as much as you want oxygen to breathe.
Even if the mewtwo is doing poorly, almost no player will do a better job of teaching you what your mewtwo needs to improve on than the player good enough to knock you out of the tournament. Losing is not bad. It is a magnifying glass gameshark action replay instantly showing you what you need to fix to WIN. You're shown more secrets of weaknesses in your mewtwo from that one high level tournament bracket match than you would find on your own in weeks possibly.
If you do NOT write down what they were doing to beat you and make plans to train that weakness away the loss is in vain however. Ask your opponent how they won.
Important
Finally and in my opinion MONEY MATCH the best players at the venue if you can. While making the money match ask them that they give honest feedback related to gameplay and not the character from the match afterwards. If you're at a big tournament or if a top 10 player lives in your area and goes to your local tournies you are going to get feedback from a player probably better than the person who would normally knock you out of the tourney.
The lack of intuition here from not attending a tournament frequently enough with this character is a problem. Its hurting how fast we advance him and the cold feet we have on attending tournaments with him contradicts the work we want to put in here. Avoiding tournaments with mewtwo and playing mewtwo smash theory the game on smashboard threads is essentially whats happening right now and it needs to stop.
Advancing the metagame is going to be hard if we do not have tournament experience backing up our intuition on developing this character. You're on a mission now to get tourney experience with him. Go to the tourney and come back to talk to us about what you're learning. Share video footage of your mewtwo. We NEED more tournament attendance from you guys with mewtwo!
So heres a pep talk. You have one of two options if you want to win with mewtwo. Put in the work required to win the tournament, or don't. Many players believe training to be good enough to win is really hard. Actually, when you have a plan designed to make you really good its WAY more rewarding to see constant improvement over time and way faster at improving you than the way you play now. The GOOD training plan is very powerful and makes improvement come much easier just because of how powerful the idea is on its own. You would actually strongly prefer and comfortably enjoy the training required to win a major. Instead of over 3 hours of grinding that frustrates you, burns you out, makes you hit walls and makes you lose in pools after a 2 hour car ride.
You don't hate practicing. You hate practicing in ways that don't work and lead to permanent failure and sap your confidence. You will ENJOY practicing when you're training to win, I promise.
Lets remember what the future could be. No, what the future is becoming now. If we keep advancing mewtwo and training hard, there may in fact come a day where somebody wins with him and thats what we're fighting for here. We're trying to get mewtwo out of this dismissed purgatory he has been abandoned to by most of smashboards and even most of our fellow mewtwo mains since the beginning of time. MOMENTUM is what we're after. From there, we want mewtwo out into the public eye with great tournament results on smash streams with eye popping play that entertains thousands of people.
I want the opinion polls to change on this character. I main mewtwo because I believe hes good. Yes, I looked at the frame data. Yes, i've lurked this scene for years. Yes, i've heard all the arguments saying he can't win. Yes, i've read the sticky here saying not to think hes good.
Mewtwo is good enough to win and whether thats true or not, we need to believe it. If we want that future to exist where mewtwo wins then we need to believe right NOW that he can win. I promise there is no cause and effect saying "Mewtwo will win a major because everybody playing him thought he sucked"
From this point on I want the attitude of this place to be that we are training to win majors with mewtwo. Not locals. Majors. We don't stop until we're nuking the winners bracket with this thing.
And remember. If you're not putting in ""Go check mango broadcast for real number" 40 hours a week on this character or more you messed up big time. It sounds like a lot but consider the alternative. 25 hours a week just to lose at a tournament 2 months down the road after 200 hours of playing. 200 hours just to SD your last stock in a clutch match from a teleport, 200 hours just to not be on point enough to avoid the second hit of the foxes up air and die early or flail around like an idiot because you're choking and nothing feels natural, ETC is disgustingly unfun. You have to make that A to B connection here. You need the practice to = the results you want get. If its 40 hours a week, thats your base number.
I challenge the idea that it actually takes that long to learn how to get that good but I don't have the results yet to back up that opinion. So i'm presenting mangos idea on grinding for hours since its the most agreeable theory I can find so far.
MASTER HAND CARES
Do you take care of your hand health? Let me tell you something, if you do not have a god tier routine in place right now to prevent damage to your hands from this game you're losing before you begin. All the training you have do will be pointless if you develop a hand problem. The hand injury weakens the techskill you need with mewtwo and makes you play worse. Not good for tournament winning ambitions.
Taking care of your hands IS as essential to winning tournaments in smash as learning to L cancel or even turn your gamecube on to play. You need to realize this. Its not an opinion. After you read this Google guides on handcare for videogames and things like this and start using them ASAP. Its necessary.
Thanks for reading.
Let me throw a hard curveball your way. Have you guys taken a hard look at how you are practicing and asked yourselves "Is this good enough? Is what i'm doing effective practice?"
If the underlying philosophy behind how you train isn't effective enough to make you win, or if you're not making sure the training is good enough to reach a skill level necessary to win or perform at a certain level then theres a real danger here. The danger and MAJOR frustration being, no matter how much you practice, or try and grind, if the practice isn't designed to be effective it won't get you good. Ever.
Think about it. Are you spending 2 hours a day practicing in a way GUARANTEED to prevent you from getting good enough? How pointless is that?
Well what i'm going to assert is that this is in fact most likely the case.
So, how do you start training in a way that starts getting you really good? This broadcast right here is a good start. It is an hour and forty minutes long and mango himself is in it. The main focus of this broadcast is how to improve as effectively as possible. If you care at all about getting better, watch it right now. http://www.twitch.tv/meleeitonme/b/471089168
There are related videos on this page where PPMD talks about improving at the game as well. Find as many guides and threads and videos on improving as you possibly can by top players.
Performance psychology is very good for helping you get around tournament nerves and practice and play better. Begin looking for youtube videos and other resources on defeating anxiety and playing at peak performance. Things like this. They're out there. They're real. And they're helpful. You will have a MUCH harder time choking and you need this if you have insecurities playing to win with mewtwo. All the tech skill in the world won't help you if you shut down in a tournament match because "Its just not mewtwos place to do well in tournaments" screaming in your head.
WOAH. HEY! WAIT A SECOND!
Did you go write down on paper or type on your computer a reminder to look for performance psychology vids and top player guides on the game? Are you making absolutely sure you WILL do this when you are done reading this? No? Don't progress in reading this until you do.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
STOP
Scroll back up if you have not watched this broadcast yet and written down everything it says about improving at smash. Don't be that guy procrastinating in threads on smashboards because hes lost his love of getting better and lost the drive to play.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some notes I found especially game changing from this broadcast
1- Smash is like an MMO and its got stats. In an MMO you've got stats for attack, stats for defense, stats for speed, etc.
In an MMO you can train those stats. Well some people put more training into one stat than the others. Say, more attack so they're a warrior. Some put in way more speed so they can be a thief, some into defense so they're a tank.
A big mistake in smash is doing that. Out of a hypothetical 20 levels In smash you want a 20 in techskill. A 20 in edge guarding. A 20 in DI. A 20 in your punish game. A 20 in your grab game. ETC.
In other words, make sure your training is comprehensively designed to touch down on every important element of the game. If its not, then you're not training certain important things AT ALL because your training isn't touching down on them, or they're not training the part well enough.
Another very important thing is you need to keep evolving the danger and power of the ideas behind the use of your techskill until you know you are wielding these options in ways that are strong enough to start winning. Having the techskill with poor usage ideas behind it isn't good enough.
Don't have 20 in mindgames and 2 in punish game. You don't win or even have nearly as much fun that way.
2. Here is a common very dangerous problem in how people train at the game these days. An infinite loop of briefly touching down on a new skill and forgetting that skill because you
A- Waited too long before practicing again
B- Didn't practice it enough the first time before moving on to something else
I see it all the time. People training by switching between dash dancing, to combo game, to edge guards and tech chasing all in the course of 30 minutes. By the time an hour is over since they played, they will have pretty much forgotten most if not all of it because it went into their short term memory. No! At best I would say that should come after you already know how to do it for sure.
3. THIS IS A BIG ONE. Working on more advanced concepts in gameplay without having learned "save for TAS tier stuff" ALL the fundamental necessary advanced techskill for the game and your character. Techskill is at the root of how you do almost anything in the game. You can't practice anything without it.
Want to focus practicing on comboing? How? Your tech sucks! You can't even practicing comboing if you don't have the tech to combo with. Approach game? How! Your tech sucks! See what I mean? You can't progress and do practically ANYTHING in your practice until the tech is there to practice with in the first place. Get that techskill! And yes you do need to practice the techskill options of moving in general. This makes your character way faster and more percise. Any person not practicing movement accuracy and speed will be clumsier and easier to react to and land a hit on.
Work on your techskill one techskill at a time. And importantly, do not proceed in training until you are using that techskill well. That is your only goal. Learn that one thing for now and nothing else. Choose the most basic and fundamental things you cannot do right now and practice those. Don't be fancy yet. There is other advice in the vid on ways to practice other things. BE humble. Don't say "My wavedashing is good enough." Is it? GO CHECK. If you have one hole in your wavedash skill or philosophy on using it thats going to hurt you alot.
4. In order to become innovative and pioneer the character you must start experimenting a lot and thinking about what these different things can do with an open mind. What this means is you don't want to keep going down the same road and picking those options over and over again if being innovative is your goal. Keep trying things you normally never do in the game to open up new experience and the potential for ideas.
I started thinking about for example, ways I should use shadowball that I never use shadowball for, or things I want to do differently in situations when I normally want to shadowball. That was helpful in evolving how I will use shadowball on people in the future.
End of the video segment part
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
elephant in the room- IF YOU WANT TO MAIN MEWTWO AND YOU HAVEN"T GONE TO A TOURNAMENT N THE LAST MONTH, SCHEDULE A TOURNAMENT AS SOON AS YOU CAN AFTER READING THIS. DO NOT switch to a secondary at any point, even if you get JV5'd in game 1 of grand finals. The tournament bracket games are the ultimate proving grounds of how well the mewtwo is doing. You want that feedback as much as you want oxygen to breathe.
Even if the mewtwo is doing poorly, almost no player will do a better job of teaching you what your mewtwo needs to improve on than the player good enough to knock you out of the tournament. Losing is not bad. It is a magnifying glass gameshark action replay instantly showing you what you need to fix to WIN. You're shown more secrets of weaknesses in your mewtwo from that one high level tournament bracket match than you would find on your own in weeks possibly.
If you do NOT write down what they were doing to beat you and make plans to train that weakness away the loss is in vain however. Ask your opponent how they won.
Important
Finally and in my opinion MONEY MATCH the best players at the venue if you can. While making the money match ask them that they give honest feedback related to gameplay and not the character from the match afterwards. If you're at a big tournament or if a top 10 player lives in your area and goes to your local tournies you are going to get feedback from a player probably better than the person who would normally knock you out of the tourney.
The lack of intuition here from not attending a tournament frequently enough with this character is a problem. Its hurting how fast we advance him and the cold feet we have on attending tournaments with him contradicts the work we want to put in here. Avoiding tournaments with mewtwo and playing mewtwo smash theory the game on smashboard threads is essentially whats happening right now and it needs to stop.
Advancing the metagame is going to be hard if we do not have tournament experience backing up our intuition on developing this character. You're on a mission now to get tourney experience with him. Go to the tourney and come back to talk to us about what you're learning. Share video footage of your mewtwo. We NEED more tournament attendance from you guys with mewtwo!
So heres a pep talk. You have one of two options if you want to win with mewtwo. Put in the work required to win the tournament, or don't. Many players believe training to be good enough to win is really hard. Actually, when you have a plan designed to make you really good its WAY more rewarding to see constant improvement over time and way faster at improving you than the way you play now. The GOOD training plan is very powerful and makes improvement come much easier just because of how powerful the idea is on its own. You would actually strongly prefer and comfortably enjoy the training required to win a major. Instead of over 3 hours of grinding that frustrates you, burns you out, makes you hit walls and makes you lose in pools after a 2 hour car ride.
You don't hate practicing. You hate practicing in ways that don't work and lead to permanent failure and sap your confidence. You will ENJOY practicing when you're training to win, I promise.
Lets remember what the future could be. No, what the future is becoming now. If we keep advancing mewtwo and training hard, there may in fact come a day where somebody wins with him and thats what we're fighting for here. We're trying to get mewtwo out of this dismissed purgatory he has been abandoned to by most of smashboards and even most of our fellow mewtwo mains since the beginning of time. MOMENTUM is what we're after. From there, we want mewtwo out into the public eye with great tournament results on smash streams with eye popping play that entertains thousands of people.
I want the opinion polls to change on this character. I main mewtwo because I believe hes good. Yes, I looked at the frame data. Yes, i've lurked this scene for years. Yes, i've heard all the arguments saying he can't win. Yes, i've read the sticky here saying not to think hes good.
Mewtwo is good enough to win and whether thats true or not, we need to believe it. If we want that future to exist where mewtwo wins then we need to believe right NOW that he can win. I promise there is no cause and effect saying "Mewtwo will win a major because everybody playing him thought he sucked"
From this point on I want the attitude of this place to be that we are training to win majors with mewtwo. Not locals. Majors. We don't stop until we're nuking the winners bracket with this thing.
And remember. If you're not putting in ""Go check mango broadcast for real number" 40 hours a week on this character or more you messed up big time. It sounds like a lot but consider the alternative. 25 hours a week just to lose at a tournament 2 months down the road after 200 hours of playing. 200 hours just to SD your last stock in a clutch match from a teleport, 200 hours just to not be on point enough to avoid the second hit of the foxes up air and die early or flail around like an idiot because you're choking and nothing feels natural, ETC is disgustingly unfun. You have to make that A to B connection here. You need the practice to = the results you want get. If its 40 hours a week, thats your base number.
I challenge the idea that it actually takes that long to learn how to get that good but I don't have the results yet to back up that opinion. So i'm presenting mangos idea on grinding for hours since its the most agreeable theory I can find so far.
MASTER HAND CARES
Do you take care of your hand health? Let me tell you something, if you do not have a god tier routine in place right now to prevent damage to your hands from this game you're losing before you begin. All the training you have do will be pointless if you develop a hand problem. The hand injury weakens the techskill you need with mewtwo and makes you play worse. Not good for tournament winning ambitions.
Taking care of your hands IS as essential to winning tournaments in smash as learning to L cancel or even turn your gamecube on to play. You need to realize this. Its not an opinion. After you read this Google guides on handcare for videogames and things like this and start using them ASAP. Its necessary.
Thanks for reading.
Last edited:
ihasabuket
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2015
- Messages
- 321
Alright so ive been playing around with some fullhop shenanigans again and found some really interesting followups. On all legal stages except FoD(when platforms are too low) you can fullhop rising fair and then DJ/DJC-> aerial on the platform. It's fairly easy if you buffer the DJ with control stick. Also note that to do this on dreamland you have to wait an extra frame or 2 before you can aerial after your DJ. Against fast fallers you can convert off a dtilt from the ground with bad DI into fullhop rising fair ->DJC fair -> grab. Fastfallers have to be at mid+ %s.
Also i wanted to mention something i observed while analyzing this match (prof vs animal control is at 04:00:10) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DicfTaoceAw. At 04:03:14 after prof jumps off the right platform fairs and lands on the top plaform he runs off to dip under fox and upair but fox DJ out of it. In this case he probably couldnt have pivot baired because he needed the running momentum to catch up to fox. I think in this case since fox was in hitstun and he didnt have a SB he could have used disable to send him offstage at a low angle. Alternatively he could have drifted forward the whole time to edge cancel. These are the small details you have to worry about. Exploit the fact that mewtwo can edgecancel very easily. You should always be using dash WD to go off a platform instead of just running off unless youre literally at the edge.
Prof made several mistakes in this match like no DI on upthrow or upair numerous times or not shielding on platforms when attacks from animal control were telegraphed and easily punished with shield drops. He also didnt use ledge AI or airdidge recovery mixups and was punished many times getting back on stage as a result. The match was fairly close and as you can see profs mewtwo is very underdeveloped. Something interesting to note is that Prof uses mewtwo's dashdance fairly well and actually got upthrow punishes off them a few times.
Also i wanted to mention something i observed while analyzing this match (prof vs animal control is at 04:00:10) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DicfTaoceAw. At 04:03:14 after prof jumps off the right platform fairs and lands on the top plaform he runs off to dip under fox and upair but fox DJ out of it. In this case he probably couldnt have pivot baired because he needed the running momentum to catch up to fox. I think in this case since fox was in hitstun and he didnt have a SB he could have used disable to send him offstage at a low angle. Alternatively he could have drifted forward the whole time to edge cancel. These are the small details you have to worry about. Exploit the fact that mewtwo can edgecancel very easily. You should always be using dash WD to go off a platform instead of just running off unless youre literally at the edge.
Prof made several mistakes in this match like no DI on upthrow or upair numerous times or not shielding on platforms when attacks from animal control were telegraphed and easily punished with shield drops. He also didnt use ledge AI or airdidge recovery mixups and was punished many times getting back on stage as a result. The match was fairly close and as you can see profs mewtwo is very underdeveloped. Something interesting to note is that Prof uses mewtwo's dashdance fairly well and actually got upthrow punishes off them a few times.
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ihasabuket
Smash Journeyman
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I also just found out a little trick for teleport techchasing. When you teleport and drift forward you can land and use the momentum to JC grab or turnaround grab if you end up going past them.
Just fiddled around with teleporting some more as i wrote this. In many cases you can get from a side platform to the top one by platform dropping and fastfalling after to adjust your teleport distance to the top platform. Also remember you can use shortened teleports.
Just fiddled around with teleporting some more as i wrote this. In many cases you can get from a side platform to the top one by platform dropping and fastfalling after to adjust your teleport distance to the top platform. Also remember you can use shortened teleports.
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Gandhi Jam
Smash Rookie
This is phenomenal. Back to the lab.
ShAd3
Smash Rookie
I think Mewtwo might have a ledge dash into down b. think Taj used it in his set against Silent Spectre. But i do agree that his meta is underdeveloped. Seeing his perfect edge cancelled teleports show signs that he might be better than what we think.
ihasabuket
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I was wondering how much better is mewtwos platform cancelled airdodge(see here https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/3eetvn/new_peach_tech_lustdash/) than his spotdodge. Do you guys think this could be an alternative to spot dodging on a platform?
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ihasabuket
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Just looked up the frame data his airdodge is amazing its invincible 4-29 and ends at 39. Ironically his airdodge being so good makes the platform canceled airdodge a bad option.
ShadowKing
Smash Ace
Hes air dodge is great because he has the 3rd best wave dash
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Sieghart
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The frame data on his air dodge has nothing to do with wavedash length. Character specific traits of air dodges are inconsequential. What matters is stuff like traction, which is why M2 has a great wavedash and also slides so much when light shielding.
ShadowKing
Smash Ace
I wasn't talking about the length smart one
Sieghart
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Regardless of what you were talking about, the fact that M2 has the 3rd best wavedash is not a cause for anything in regards to his air dodge. It is the direct effect.
ShadowKing
Smash Ace
Anh do I care to wavedash its a short shope air dodge down ward *mind blows*sry but it's true with out a good air dodge they won't have a good wavedash in my opinion and from many facts I found
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Sieghart
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The angle at which you air dodge, your proximity to the ground, and traction are the only things that determine how far your wavedash goes. None of those three things are used to measure how good an air dodge is. Earlier you said you weren't referring to length, I forgot to mention this in my previous post but distance and preceding jumpsquat frames are the only factors that differentiate wavedashes so please explain what you're referring to.
This isn't even considering the fact that by inputting your air dodge on the last frame of jump squat you can transition directly from jumpsquat to landfallspecial without ever going through any frames of the air dodge (escapeair). That simple fact completely counters your argument seeing as no character specific facet of the air dodge itself will be present.
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
As far as ledge options are concerned, I don't like ledgehop disable because the opponent can just face the other direction. But I see ledgehop into airdodge down on the brink of the stage being a good over 100% mixup that can be rotated into in conjunction with ledgehop teleporting to center stage and ledgehop nair.
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Sieghart
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That's what I use normally. I'm generally not very good so the people I usually play against underestimate my ledge options and often overextend and get punished with ledge AI > dtilt or utilt. I've been trying to incorporate edge cancelled teleport > bair or nair to reverse edgeguarding situations but getting the entire sequence consistently has eluded me thus far. I can escape but I usually fail at the punish.
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
The invincible ledge stall also means you can make it ambiguous when you're going to do one of those options. Makes it harder for the opponent to react to your stuff even when they somewhat know what to expect.
Sieghart
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It's also worth noting that so far I get the tech chase on fast fallers across the board around 40% of the time after about a week of semi-practice. I find it much easier than Falcon's tech chase which took me around a month of practice off/on to get to that same level of consistency against real players. My neutral is still garbage at this stage in my game regardless of what character I play so I can't say how much it really effects M2's standing but his punish game against fast fallers is infinitely better between pivot dtilt and the tech chase Melee Mewtwo outlined.
ShadowKing
Smash Ace
Look up taj
ShadowKing
Smash Ace
No problemOkay thanks!
MewtwoForce
Smash Cadet
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Progress report
Any mewtwos here going to or coming back from any recent tournaments? Which ones? Do you have any vids or words of advice from that tourney?
If no tourney has been attended in awhile are you planning on going to one soon with just mewtwo?
Any mewtwos here going to or coming back from any recent tournaments? Which ones? Do you have any vids or words of advice from that tourney?
If no tourney has been attended in awhile are you planning on going to one soon with just mewtwo?
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MewtwoForce
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Thanks for sharing this with us Melee Mewtwo. Shoutouts to kadano as well.
EDIT- Guys i'm working on mewtwo combos in the hack pack. Problem is when I turn the color indication for hit stun on the elemental moves aren't showing any color indication. Has this been fixed yet?
How relevant is the combo thread now these days? http://smashboards.com/threads/mewtwo-combos-guide.90383/ Trying to get my hands on all the combo knowledge this character has atm. Do we have any other resources you could think of that could help pioneer mewtwos combo game?
EDIT- Guys i'm working on mewtwo combos in the hack pack. Problem is when I turn the color indication for hit stun on the elemental moves aren't showing any color indication. Has this been fixed yet?
How relevant is the combo thread now these days? http://smashboards.com/threads/mewtwo-combos-guide.90383/ Trying to get my hands on all the combo knowledge this character has atm. Do we have any other resources you could think of that could help pioneer mewtwos combo game?
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Sieghart
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I'm still of the belief that tech chasing and kill setups are more important and useful than M2's subpar combo game. I've gotten more mileage out of consistent tech chases on fast fallers than I ever did with juggles that sometimes don't even lead directly into a kill mostly due to DI and platforms. Stuff like the dtilt > down smash that Melee Mewtwo mentioned work right out of a decent tech chase too. Unless we're talking specifically about characters that can't be tech chased, or situations where tech chasing isn't an option, I don't see the point in opting for a combo when you can consistently wreck faces by tech chasing into an edgeguard or a kill outright.
Maybe it's just my newfound ability to not get completely wrecked by almost everyone I play talking but I just don't think the style points are worth it, man. Not for M2 at least.