Advancing the Mewtwo Meta Game

[Deleted member 212841]

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[ChivalRuse]

I think it's pretty useful if you charge it because you can time it better that way (for edgeguarding Fox and Falco's side-b. It also seems to beat out up-b well, and if you miss, the IASA frames can be used to cover high recovery options).

 

[ihasabuket]

Marth is probably the top tier matchup you have to worry the least about, you are likely better off taking any loses in exchange for experience in the matchup.

You really think so? This is the matchup i struggle with the most. How do you play it?

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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[ihasabuket]

Hmm i see. Even though you cant really get combos on marth you can abuse bthrow and upthrow's high base KB to rack up damage while marth is in the air or offstage. Bthrow at low %'s can put him into tumble on a platform where you can poke him with upairs, bairs, and uptilts from under. You just have to abuse his lack of air mobility and fall speed by sharking him.
Thanks for the info, didnt think about approaching the matchup this way.

 

[Bandit Croco]

do we know if there were any Mewtwos at CEO?

 

[SGJet]

I was at CEO

 

[Bandit Croco]

I was at CEO

wanna talk about your matches please?

 

[ihasabuket]

If youre gonna discuss that do it here http://smashboards.com/threads/match-experiences-and-discussions.408281/

 

[ChivalRuse]

Marth matchup is a lot of d-tilt poking and counterpoking. You have a projectile, which is phenomenal. Spam the small shadow ball. Your recovery is better. You can edgeguard him with bair quite easily.

Dash into shield a lot. Wavedash out of shield into d-tilt or grab. Your aerials are great once you get Marth above you.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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[ChivalRuse]

D-throw and then sharking with bair is pretty good on floaties I find. D-throw tech chases are better against fast fallers when u-throw no longer leads to as many follow ups.

 

[Sieghart]

However, for Pikachu and Sheik (as well as Fox, Falco, and Falcon) DIing dthrow away leads to a techchase scenario. It's very possible to cover their techrolls on reaction with a regrab as well, but we've already covered that earlier. Just note that since Pikachu and Sheik are a bit floatier they can possibly escape at higher percents, I didn't do much testing. (Well, some rough tests I had done long ago told me that around 70%ish Sheik can jump out of techchases on DI away)

I'll probably end up doing research and some frame data stuff for dthrow tech chases if no one else does it first. I feel like guaranteed damage like that is something people like us, those that want to play a low tier to some extent, can't pass up on if we want to make the most of M2. Who knows, we may come across some guaranteed kill set up out of the tech chase like I've always dreamed of. At the very least it's damage we can count on which is a lot more than we have now in terms of offense.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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[Sieghart]

I had done some tests and made a flowchart for the 3 fastfallers here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/advancing-the-mewtwo-meta-game.398111/#post-19178162

iirc, I had done some further testing and found that you need to replace all those dashes with (dash) wavedashes once you start hitting higher percents. (like 80%ish)

You can't really end the techchase with a kill move without a read but you can land a dtilt which should combo into a killing fair/bair depending on DI. (I'm not sure if you can combo into Bair with DI away, actually, I'll need to test it) You can also just use backthrow once you reach high percents and have your back reasonably close to the ledge.

This is a perfect start but I was thinking something nearer to the Falcon tech chase guide with frames and the like so it's easier to get right into it. Mostly as a direct reference though so that we don't have to go searching around.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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[ihasabuket]

Plus, imo, FD isn't actually that great a stage for Mewtwo, outside of that one combo, as he really likes platforms to interrupt combos on him, abuse Teleport escapes, and take full advantage of his powerful, flexible recovery so that he isn't limited to just onstage and ledge.

I agree, I think we should start looking more into platform techchasing so that we can get kill moves off of tech chases; Ledge AI and mewtwo's smash attack ranges should make getting a kill off a platform techchase relatively easy. I wont be home for a while but im gonna see at what %s dthrow and upthrow can get certain characters on a platform. Even if you cant land on the platform in time you should still be be able to get an upair, SB, or at least some position.

Come to think of it, disable could be pretty legit for a platform techchase option since you can cover tech in place and the roll away. You could probably cover the mistech too if you do an early disable with just your head poking above the platform, which can be relatively safe and faster than landing on the platform. Doing it this way would make the projectile hitbox lower and would cause you to fall under the platform, giving you the option to WL, DJ, or aerial after disable's endlag.
I literally came up with this as i was writing so i havent tested it, im just theorizing here. If anyone could test this i'd appreciate it.

Edit: Now that i think about it, I think youd only have actionable frames in the the air after a low side platform disable if you were in dreamland(since the side platforms are so high).

 

[ChivalRuse]

Let us know if you do find a way to execute the disable tech chase.

So I realized today that I need to practice tech skill with Mewtwo. It's very hard to put your hitboxes exactly where you want to, and with Mewtwo it's crucial to space moves right because of his huge hurtbox.

 

[ihasabuket]

Last week i finally got pivot bair down. Its great because you dont telegraph your bair by facing away and your tail isnt putting you in danger. It only takes 1 more frame than a bair from a backwards position too.
Also, reverse bair is easier to land if you're a little lower than the opponent.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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[Sieghart]

One thing worth noting is that DJC uair can probably (remember, dthrow frame advantage is unknown) cover tech in place on reaction, assuming you immediately jump. That gives you 15 frames to react to their tech and either cover tech in place with djc uair or rising Nair, or go for an option like ledge AI grab/dtilt when you see them techrolling. The fact that you are going to automatically jump makes options that use it more leniency, as opposed to waiting to jump until after you've reacted to their tech option.

Dthrow frame advantage is not unknown, it's -25 as stated by the legend Magus in his comprehensive thread of tech/throw/getup frame data. See here: http://smashboards.com/threads/detailed-throws-techs-and-getups-frame-data.206469/
Mewtwo is right under Marth for throws. He doesn't have a picture, probably broken, so just scroll down until you find him. Also it's worth noting that Dthrow isn't weight dependent so that's great for consistency.

 

[ChivalRuse]

D-throw good for heavier characters then.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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[ihasabuket]

There are alternative moves to get someone on a platform though, such as fair, dair, uptilt, upair, and late dash attack. Late dash attack only has 9 frames of ending lag and fairly low KB growth if i remember correctly. The aerials you could obviously DJC which should give you plenty time to techchase. You could probably do a full hop rising fair to get them and yourself on the platform with a hefty frame advantage. We just need to figure out which move to use at what % by knowing the general distance of each moves KB at certain % ranges. Fair, dair, and dash attack should be relatively easy to set up platform techchases with because of their send angles. Upair and uptilt are more situational of their variable send angles.

I was thinking dthrow for sheik, marth, and jiggs. I want to create DI traps with dthrow where the apex of the DI away arc is slightly above a platform. This way if they DI away you get a platform techchase and if they DI up or in you get a followup. Up throw could work on top platforms for fast fallers to give you a free aerial and/or stage control. I know ive touched up on upthrow % collisions for each stage, ill try to find it.

As for the confusion thing, I know you can use confusion at a certain height so that you fall through the platform but they dont. It has a lot of endlag though, but i suppose it's your best option if you got to the platform way too late and you want to counter the shield + OoS options.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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[Deleted member 212841]

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[Sieghart]

Here are the percents that Mewtwo's unstaled dtilt breaks ASDI down in ntsc. Just note that I'm using strongbad's calculator to determine these rather than actually testing them myself.

Character - strong hit - mid hit - weak hit

Fox - 28% - 33% - 53%
Falco - 29% - 34% - 54%
Sheik - 31% - 36% - 58%
Marth - 30% - 35% - 57%
Falcon - 34% - 39% - 62%
Peach - 31% - 36% - 58%
Icies - 31% - 35% - 57%
Jigglypuff - 25% - 29% - 48%
Samus - 35% - 41% - 64%
Luigi - 33% - 38% - 61%
Yoshi - 35% - 40% - 63%
Pikachu - 29% - 34% - 54%
Y. Link - 30% - 35% - 56%
(Dr.) Mario - 33% - 38% - 61%

Keep in mind, weak hit isn't very important since, in most cases, you aren't punishable on hit anyways.

Thanks a lot for this. It'll definitely help with solidifying M2's neutral.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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[Sieghart]

There's another thing I've been thinking about that I want some feedback on. What do you think of Mewtwo's potential in juggling? Do you think it may be worth specifically going for it?

Mewtwo seems favorably equipped for it since his Uair reaches very far above him, covers a lot of horizontal space, comes out fast, and deals good damage (especially at the tip which is ideal). His DJC also seems quite useful for this as he reach for higher opponent's with a reduced risk of overshooting and getting crossed up due to immediate descent. The downsides to the Uair is that it isn't fully disjointed, increasing the risk of trades, and the knockback trajectory isn't very vertical, tending to knock the opponent away more than up with good DI.

Do you think that the pros outweigh the cons enough to make it reasonable to expect to land a couple Uairs before an opponent lands? The trajectory seems to undermine this, but I'm unsure if the DJC's descent allows Mewtwo to keep up with his opponent regardless. Maybe I could determine it with some debug menu tests, just had a few ideas on how I might go about it.

I think it's most definitely worth looking in to. M2 doesn't have very impressive combo capabilities versus characters that aren't fastfallers so uair juggles can hopefully fill that niche? At the very least if we can get some set up for it, it's worth going for since there aren't really any other options that would outrank it.

 

[ChivalRuse]

You have to drift when you do uairs in case you whiff so that you don't get punished as easily. Also, watch out for shield dropping on platforms (I guess nair can kind of counter this though).

 

[Sieghart]

You have to drift when you do uairs in case you whiff so that you don't get punished as easily. Also, watch out for shield dropping on platforms (I guess nair can kind of counter this though).

I was more thinking of juggles based on set ups like uthrow or utilt rather than raw uairs. If we're just talking about going for raw uairs I can't say I agree with that as an option at all unless it's completely safe and wouldn't whiff regardless.

 

[ChivalRuse]

The weird thing is that in getting to a position where you can uair the enemy (because of Mewtwo's slow jump) sometimes you can get hit BEFORE your uair comes out.

 

[ihasabuket]

There's another thing I've been thinking about that I want some feedback on. What do you think of Mewtwo's potential in juggling? Do you think it may be worth specifically going for it?

Mewtwo seems favorably equipped for it since his Uair reaches very far above him, covers a lot of horizontal space, comes out fast, and deals good damage (especially at the tip which is ideal). His DJC also seems quite useful for this as he reach for higher opponent's with a reduced risk of overshooting and getting crossed up due to immediate descent. The downsides to the Uair is that it isn't fully disjointed, increasing the risk of trades, and the knockback trajectory isn't very vertical, tending to knock the opponent away more than up with good DI.

Do you think that the pros outweigh the cons enough to make it reasonable to expect to land a couple Uairs before an opponent lands? The trajectory seems to undermine this, but I'm unsure if the DJC's descent allows Mewtwo to keep up with his opponent regardless. Maybe I could determine it with some debug menu tests, just had a few ideas on how I might go about it.

Trades shouldnt happen with upair too often. You usually trade when you try to reach horizontally in front of you with upair but the opponent was too low for you to hit with the sweetspot(which is the disjointed part). In this case i think it best to either use aerial disable if theyre in tumble, or pivot bair if they arent. Disable has great base KB and a really low send angle. This is often better than sending them offstage really high or trading with a weak hit of upair. Although, you can usually follow up with nair if you hit with the sourspot upair and they fall below you. The key to properly juggling with upair is to catch them with an upair after they use their DJ. In general it's better to wait to see if they use their DJ instead of committing to an upair when theyre in the air. Usually i dashdance nearby until theyre as close to the ground as possible to get a grab or punish the DJ. If they manage to avoid the grab with a DJ you probably wont get punished anyway. If they DJ and youre in position to punish with upair, you can juggle them or send them offstage depending on their DI.

DJC upairs are useful but AC upairs are best for juggling opponents because you can drift far and only have 4 frames of landing lag. Since upair wont send them backwards unless you get the reverse hit, you only have to worry about how far to drift. If you happen to get the sourspot upair, you can followup with nair if they fall below you.

Overall i think it's a good to juggle with upairs but you have to know when to send them offstage with the previously mentioned options instead of landing an upair that will leave them in a better position to recover.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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[Deleted member 212841]

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[ChivalRuse]

Yeah the Samus matchup is super hard. I hate it.

 

[ihasabuket]

Sorry, when I said DJC Uair I meant using your double jump right before you use Uair so that you immediately start descending and don't linger in the air after scaring your hit. Forgot that it would just be interpreted as IDJC Uairs.

Anyways, I did some debug menu tests with Samus and found a few things.
-A sweetspot, unstaled Uair after an unstaled Uthrow (so 26% after hit) puts Samus in 17 frames hitstun
-At low percents, Samus gained no vertical height with DI down and out. No DI gave her a very small rise.

Obviously, since this is Samus, this is more or less a worst case scenario in terms of Uairs vs floaties since she's so heavy that knockback, and thus hitstun, are much lower than for most everybody else.

Regardless, this worst case scenario is still favorable to Mewtwo in terms of juggling floaties with Uair. If you double jump right before the Uair and make sure to fastfall (either before or after the hit depending on spacing), then Mewtwo will easily hit the ground before Samus (the floaty with the least knockback and histun) even gets out of hitstun. If you land the frame right after the Uair connects, you will be at a +7 frame advantage.

In the end, the floaty (at least Samus) at low percents will still have a net loss of height. However, this shouldn't bother Mewtwo much as it's a very minor amount. The floaty will either be so high that there's still plenty of leniency for Mewtwo to reposition himself and shark again with a full jump Uair, or so low that Mewtwo has the frame advantage to follow up with another move and force a double jump. For example, the latest possible Uair that I described above can be immediately followed up with an Utilt that will either hit the Samus or force her to frame perfect double jump away.

I'm actually thinking that, thanks to Mewtwo's double jump mechanics, he is one of the best at juggling floaties. The fact that Mewtwo will *always* be falling after Uairing means that double jump away is a much weaker answer to juggle attempts as all it accomplishes is resetting to the same position as before, just this time without a double jump. Mewtwo also doesn't have to worry about rising too far up while Uairing in a way that the floaty could avoid future hits by falling with him.

By the way, it only takes two Uairs after an unstaled dthrow to be able break ASDI down with dtilt against most of the cast.



Oh, on the subject brought up earlier about platforms. Mewtwo's Uair on a shielding opponent is -2 when assuming you land right after hitting with the unstaled sweetspot. (which is quite likely thanks to Mewtwo's DJC) That should be safe shield pressure even assuming shield drops as long as you are a little off to the side to avoid things like shield drop Falco Dair n stuff. You are also fairly likely to shield poke exposed feet if you do perfect IDjC Uairs. Plus, you have the option of mixing in Utilts to play like a weak Marth. Of course, Mewtwo's full hop Nair is great since it is prone to shield pokes, eats shields, and can autocancel the frame right after the final hitbox allowing for what should be a free dtilt against most of the cast. Surprise Confusion with a platform to interrupt the twirl is also one of the few times where it isn't a complete gimmick. So yeah, having the opponent on a platform is still very much a favorable position for Mewtwo, imo.

I knew what you didnt mean IDJC upairs, but you still lose your horizontal momentum when you do DJC upairs. I think DJC upairs are better when theres a platform below you or theyre at low %. Id opt for SH AC upairs when theyre at mid %s in case they DI away and i need to quickly cover distance.

I think SH nair beats running shine because of the 2 frames where fox has to crouch before he actually gets in range to shine.

Also, what do you think of aerial disable and pivot bair as options to set up edgeguards?

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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[ihasabuket]

Actually, you can just replace the horizontal momentum with new horizontal momentum since funky double jump mechanic. (you know that whole slingshot effect you can do when drifting forward?) The big thing with DJC Uair is that you can fastfall ASAP and that cuts SOOOOOO much time. Just for demonstration, here's frame data for short hop:
SH air time: 35
Earliest FF: 20
SH FF air time: 24

So with just Mewtwo's short hop, which isn't very high (but very floaty) it's actually faster when doing an instant Uair to fastfall and L cancel than it is to float for the auto-cancel since you save over 10 frames. You can imagine how much time you save fastfalling from a full jump rather than slowly drifting down.

Mewtwo's max horizontal air speed isn't actually that fast, it caps at 1.4 MM per frame. (identical to his dash, from memory at least) It's the base air speed that's good but if are assuming previous acceleration, like from a dash, then overall he is quite average. You are better off hitting the ground ASAP and following the opponent's drift with dash/wavedash, plus you'll have your full jump back and you can always drift some during that while rising.

No, somehow the shine whiffs and Mewtwo's Nair hits Fox the frame right after the hitbox + invul. (Fox can Shine direct from run) Which makes no sense to me because Fox's Shine clearly has more range. There might be some janky Z-axis **** going on or maybe Fox doesn't lose horizontal momentum or I'm just screwing up the way stupid way each time, idk. I'll have to test it more.

Disable if they aren't already in hitstun just sends them in tumble which is useless. The only Disable setup during hitstun I've seen involved using Shadow ball off stage vs... a Bowser. I doubt there's much room to incorporate it in other ways since there are so many limitations to it. I haven't really tried looking for setups but zzzz. Don't really feel like messing with it, sorry.

I was going to disagree with you that you would normally have to wait 9 frames before fastfalling so that DJC upair comes out and you would normally DJC upair using the control stick which wouldnt allow you to input an analog direction for the DJ. However, upon reading your argument i realized that you can input an analog direction and DJC upair IF you use a claw grip. The horizontal momentum you get from DJ right or left when using a DJC aerial is really good. Go try a DJC fair while doing a DJ backwards and then fastfalling immediately after. It's so crazy how good mewtwo's combo game can be with this. I now think that you cant play mewtwo properly without claw grip.

That being said, SH AC aerial is pretty much obsolete. However, full hop rising upair is generally preferred on PS, DL, and BF when you want to hit an opponent with upair above the side platform and then land on it. I know, pretty situational, but every little thing helps. Anyway, a rising upair in general covers more space at this height and is easier to hit with the sweetspot. Furthermore, If you DJC just above the side platform you have to wait at least 9 frames before the move comes out before you fastfall plus you wouldnt move horizontally because youd go too far from your opponent. A rising full hop upair may take a few frames more to land on the platform but you can drift and easily edgcancel while youre falling or you can fastfall AC or DJ before you hit the platform. To DJ before you hit the platform i recommend buffering jump with the control stick.

Now that i think about it, it may be better to just fullhop rising upair and DJ into a followup immediately at mid %s.

As for the disable thing, it knocks them away if theyre in tumble, not just hitsun. I meant to use this in a combo, not so much when youre sharking them from below. The low send angle is great on fast fallers since it can set up early edgeguards at any % so that mewtwo can play more punish game instead of neutral. If i find any good setups ill post it here.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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