Advancing the Mewtwo Meta Game

[ihasabuket]

I actually started doind the DJC land after you linked me to the AI thread some time ago although i just called it an AI OoS. Btw who do you main now? And do you ever plan on maining mewtwo again?

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[Sieghart]

In regards to playing claw with M2, you can also do it like me and simply transition between normal play and claw whenever using specific tech. I've typically played like that since I was a little kid trying to find the fastest way to mash the buttons lol. Nowadays it just helps because claw annoys my hands when done for extended periods of times but almost feels natural when transitioned to and from.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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[Sieghart]

Somebody showed me this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQuWAGfIDNE&feature=youtu.be

It's for Falcon but you can copypaste the information (including the frame data) and apply it to Mewtwo.

Yeah I've come across it before. The information isn't character dependent (aside from Fox being the opponent) at all if anyone else is interested so it actually applies to tech chasing in general.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[EZえん]

edit: there were many more responses than it showed, this comment is irrelevant

 

[Sieghart]

Can anyone give me a straight list of M2's worst matchups? Doesn't need to be everything just something to get me started.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[Sieghart]

I can't really give you the answer you are looking for but I'm curious as to the intent behind it, mind sharing what you have in mind?

Reviewing stuff like punishes and options against specifically bad matchups to see if I can make them any more doable. Or at least with the goal of cementing our end of the deal so that I'm doing all that I can. I find that low-tier players tend to look at bad matchups and just give up because there's no way it'll stop being bad. I'm of the belief that some bad matchups can often still be winnable in many cases if you get the matchup down to a science since most opponents won't be playing the matchup like theorygods.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[EZえん]

falcon is considered about 90-10 since all of his attacks can 0-death us, however if theyre dumb, going for only hard knees, you can out prioritize them with nair then combo them to death (so it is winnable). His next worst is actually Fox (even tho we punish him so hard, he is way faster and kills us at like 50% lol). After fox i would guess marth because he has our range but way better and hes faster. Sheik isnt really that bad, you can do all kinds of things out of grab on him too. Falco cant kill vertically well and youll live forever horizontally so that mu is almost even imo. not sure about how peach works out but her and puff you can actually space p well against. Also m2 beats icys lol

 

[ChivalRuse]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzCEpZBzmIw

The matchup isn't quite that bad. You have to play really safe, avoid grabs, and hit your edgeguards.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[ChivalRuse]

The Iori video just shows expert use of grabbing and good reaction/intuition with aerials. Aerials are kind of the hardest part of playing Mewtwo, I think.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[Comet7]

i didn't see anything in prof's set that was worth noting. wizz was clearly unfamiliar with mewtwo.

do you think you could do pivot down tilts on reaction against falcon's aerials?

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[ChivalRuse]

Try to shield cross up aerials on reaction (difficult to do, but possible). Don't let Falcon space aerials on your shield. Try to wavedash back out of their range and d-tilt.

Basically, to avoid Falcon's aerial pressure you just have to react quickly and have a good read on what Falcon's options are. And you can't be afraid to shield.

 

[SuperShus]

I'm going to try my best not to be too wordy

Falcon

• utilt is too laggy, and the strong hit is too close to you, so it can't be safely spaces against uair of nair
• if falcon threatens the space in front of him with u/n air, sometimes charge shadow ball and sometimes toss a BSB, sometimes run up shield.
• The ledge is your bff. ledgestall, and don't ever mess up. if falcon tries to punish you and messes up, it's a pretty free edgeguard - if he tries to take ledge, just up b to the stage, then he'll come up with a uair or something prolly, just try to cover that (+ getup attack, same space) but don't neglect tournament winner, roll up or stand up ledge dash or hax dash.
• If he's on the ledge and has good ledge tech, you have to hang back and kind of let him on. Maybe charge a shadow ball for just a second then cancel it and see if he took the bait. Falcon's aren't that likely to ledgedash grab unless you're spamming shield, so you could run up shield towards the ledge if he's really aggressive.

What are your favorite ways to kill falcon? I guess fair works but probably setting up an edge-guard earlier is better. How do you guys do that? some combo ending in uair? a b-throw?

 

[Sieghart]

What are your favorite ways to kill falcon? I guess fair works but probably setting up an edge-guard earlier is better. How do you guys do that? some combo ending in uair? a b-throw?

I typically go for an edge-guard 9/10 times because it's tends to almost always lead to a kill at any percent since Falcon's recovery is garbage and M2's is one of the best.

 

[ChivalRuse]

B-throw seems the best for killing Falcon. Get him off stage and try to read/react to his recovery with bair. From center stage, if you get a grab though d-throw tech chasing seems to be the best path (as seen in a lot of Taj and Iori's videos).

 

[SuperShus]

Thing is, if you properly DI the bthrow, it won't really kill and only sets up an edgeguard.

Im assuming after a certain percent the edgeguard is guaranteed, yeah?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Guaranteed within human limits obviously.

 

[ihasabuket]

Ive played prof and ive seen plenty of his matches at versus. One thing he told me is to lightshield overshot aerials and shield DI back and it will often give you a grab or aerial/upsmash OoS. Dthrow techchases on him should be cake , im thinking you could just do them until you get a good bthrow setup and then dsmash or throw him over and over again. Guess you could up throw him too if youre confident in your combo game. I think playing the neutral would vary greatly on which stage youre playing though.

On a big stage(the stage itself not the blastzones) I think charging SB might be your best option in neutral little by little. I know he can rush you down but if he jumps towards you he probably wont be able to punish a roll in. You can also shield to get punishes or WD OoS and if there are platforms you can teleport to them as a mixup to your roll. Once you have a charged SB you have a way to threaten him but hold on to it until he commits to something or you can use it as a followup. Charged SB will knock falcon down at 0% which gives you a techchase. If youre too far to make it before he shields you can do 1 of 2 things. If he techs into a corner space dtilts on his shield to make him roll or do an aerial. Expect the aerial and stuff it, you can react to the roll in he will end up behind so do a turnaround grab. If he rolls but he still has space to dash dance just jump back and charge your SB again. When you have a charged SB you can play a bit of footsies to bait an aerial but the grab mixup poses a huge problem. Shield aerials and dtilt grab approaches.

On smaller stages the neutral is a little more doable. On stages like yoshis and FoD its easier to force your way in and get stage control. Here you can abuse tilts more and pressure him when he goes on platforms. Bthrow setups are easier too because of the stage size.

That said, its a hard ass matchup for mewtwo.

EDIT: dsmash covers his sweetspot

 

[ShadowKing]

I've always wanted to have a good mewtwo, but it's sad to think how much you need to outplay your opponent to win. To out neutral and out punish.

I think he'd be much more fun as a pub stomper than as your best character. That's why Taj has a godlike marth. It's great to pull him out for when you don't know the matchup, because then you both don't know the matchup.

I don't want to give up on training mewtwo, but I doubt there's really much useful tech left to discover with him.

I can't really say much until i go back to the us and get a controller under my fingers again, but I really don't see mewtwo having any real favorable matchups. Perhaps I'll make a thread where we can try and pick out all of mewtwos favorable and even matchups. I think that would be good for the community - like a confidence booster.

That's why I play mewtwo because you need to outsmart your opponent

 

[SuperShus]

You have to outsmart your opponent to win no matter what.

Even if it's at character select.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Mewtwo kind of has limited tools, though. With Fox you can kind of just press buttons. But you have to be a fairly cerebrally-oriented player to pick up the Mewtwo playstyle.

 

[ihasabuket]

Reviewing stuff like punishes and options against specifically bad matchups to see if I can make them any more doable. Or at least with the goal of cementing our end of the deal so that I'm doing all that I can. I find that low-tier players tend to look at bad matchups and just give up because there's no way it'll stop being bad. I'm of the belief that some bad matchups can often still be winnable in many cases if you get the matchup down to a science since most opponents won't be playing the matchup like theorygods.

Good mindset. Axe has managed to win the pika sheik matchup and honeslty i think there are only a few matchups worse than that one. Pikachu should theoretically get stuffed when approaching and chaingrabbed to death. Just goes to show how much a player can compensate with fundamentals.

 

[SuperShus]

Axe switched to Falco vs mew2king last tournament because he couldn't just start every stock at 68 percent(the chaingrab) and still win, to be fair.

 

[ihasabuket]

I dont blame him but hes won by going all pikachu before and that matchup straight up blows for pika.

 

[IdkLmao]

IM BACK AND THIS TIME I"M CRAZY
CRAZY AS BALLS
I"M CRAZY FOR MEWTWO
I"M CRAZY FOR BEING NUMBER 1
ARE YOU CRAZY LIKE BEING CRAZY FOR MEWTWO NUMBER ! BE CARZY YOU KNOW ITS CRAZY ONCE I WAS CRAZY AND THEN I WAS BORN
I REMEMBER LONG AGO IN A CRAZY FAR FAR AWAY MEWTWO WAS CRAZY AND NOW I AM CRAZY GET READY FOR NUMBER 1
DID YOU KNOW IN ANCIENT TIMES THERE WAS A NUMBER 1 AND LIKE MATH IT TOO WAS A NUMBER

 

[ChivalRuse]

Is that InsaneCarzyGuy? Lol.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[Sieghart]

Did anybody get a chance to watch Zoma at battlegateway 8? I'm surprised to see him place so much higher than he did just a little under a year ago, and super curious now. I really wish I can watch past vods on twitch, hopefully his games go up on youtube. All I know is he lost to a peach.

Here's the peach game, the entire stream is recorded. http://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming/v/10230769?t=2h02m05s

They should be up on their youtube channel soon enough if every other tournament they've held is any indicator. They seem really good about that.

 

[ihasabuket]

So shall we start up a peach matchup thread?

EDIT: made one already its called peach matchup

 

[Mavo]

I have no one to test this out atm so I have some questions.

1. Can you use multiple SDI on falcons up air to get out of up air strings?
I saw armada doing it with peach.

2. djc land oos
How can I use this for my advantage?
I guess it's good after a powershield but do you get any advantage with this?

3.djc fading bair(doublejump+holding left -> cstick-right)
can't you just use this to space in neutral or does it suck?

 

[ihasabuket]

I have no one to test this out atm so I have some questions.

1. Can you use multiple SDI on falcons up air to get out of up air strings?
I saw armada doing it with peach.

2. djc land oos
How can I use this for my advantage?
I guess it's good after a powershield but do you get any advantage with this?

3.djc fading bair(doublejump+holding left -> cstick-right)
can't you just use this to space in neutral or does it suck?

1. Multiple? You can SDI but only once.
2.Its faster than wavedash down and can let you tilt OoS or let you escape shield if the opponent is dashdancing in front of your shield.
3. It's only good if the opponent is backed into a corner or theyre using a slow character like peach or ganon.

 

[Comet7]

unless falcon's up air only gives 1 frame of hitlag, you can sdi it multiple times, even though it may be TAS level (not sure, haven't messed around with SDI much yet).

 

[ihasabuket]

unless falcon's up air only gives 1 frame of hitlag, you can sdi it multiple times, even though it may be TAS level (not sure, haven't messed around with SDI much yet).

Interesting. I read that you can perform multiple shield SDI inputs by rolling the control stick across a deadzone axis. Maybe you can do the same thing for regular SDI