Advancing the Mewtwo Meta Game

[Sieghart]

I've personally ended up picking Falcon back up to switch into for floaty matchups I don't think I can win at the moment. I try to go at everything M2 and usually I succeed or get close enough that I'd rather stay M2 and lose than switch. That being said my neutral seems to finally be showing real improvement. Almost won M2 vs Peach last week which I'd say is my current worst top tier matchup.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[MookieRah]

EDIT: Original post below in spoilers. I felt that I should go into more detail of something I'm trying now that seems to work well:

So in neutral I'm using a lot more fairs and avoiding tilts unless I really think my opponent is going to make a push at me. I'm using DJC slingshot back fairs, in which I jump forward and lunge backwards with fair. I do this not expecting my opponent to get hit by it (which they sometimes do) but it's more to appear aggressive when I'm not as well as goading them into wanting to attack me. With the slingshot back, it's really hard to time it in the gap as you are actionable really quick after that l-cancel and the few times opponents try to go in I toss out a dtilt (or other tilt if more appropriate).

I don't go for grabs as much, either, and instead try to go with fairs there too. At low percents, a fair will combo into a grab (and that is almost the worst case scenario combo wise) if not more fairs or tilts/aerials. I've noticed the times I would go for a grab is in situations where I could do a cross-up fair instead, and that is generally safer. Now I try to grab when I think it's the only option that would work, which is still quite often, but not as often as before.

I don't really use dtilt in neutral much anymore. It's not needed, and a whiffed dtilt is a punish despite of it's IASA frames against any character with decent speed. It's also easilly CC'd by pretty much everyone on anything but the hard hit, which requires proper positioning in the first place. By not dtilting much, my opponents actually don't CC much at all, which actually puts me in a much stronger position, as if they CC's everything it would make things more difficult even if I'm not using dtilt.

I'm using ftilt A LOT more, as other people seem to be doing as well, as it has greater range and coverage than dtilt. Standard ftilt hits much higher than dtilt, and has seemingly a longer range (although it might just mean that most characters' bodies poke out more at midsection rather than their feet) and is great for when they get just a bit too close. A tip hit's damage is minimal, but the fact they they got punished likely affects them, and sometimes it can lead to situational grabs if they DI or react awkwardly to the tip hit. Upward angled ftilt will beat out any approaching aerial, as long as it is timed correctly, and is my go to BACK OFF move when my opponent is trying to shffl in my face.

Utilt is great when you expect a dash or running grab. Zoma does this as well in his vids, but it seemingly puts them in the sweetspot of the attack which allows for some great followups most of the time. Utilt is also good for when Fox/Falco tries to get crafty and feint a shffl, and do that thing where they double jump and try to come down with an aerial. You have plenty of time to react and punish them for that nonsense with this.

To add more dimensionality, if my opponent gets too non-committal then I jump in with a short hop nair, in an attempt to catch them in their movement or trick them in trying to counter it but failing. I usually do this when I have stage control and my opponent is below one of the middle platforms. It's worth the risk every once and a while, and it will force them to do stuff rather than just sit back. You have to seem like the aggressor, even if your intention is to be patient and try to bait out offense from them.

The short hop shadowball charge to regrab works similarly to the nair well here as long as you
suspect that your opponent will shield up. I usually do this after I've been on a tear, say after I've had a pretty sick combo and they are still trying to reset the situation to neutral. So general rule of thumb, if they are under pressure, shadowball charge might be legit, if not shorthop nair.

Speaking of nair, if I'm on a platform stage in which the top plat isn't super high then full jump nairs from center stage will cut off a lot of your typical Fox/Falco/CF 'get to top plat and drop down with some attack' shenanigans. Sadly, this doesn't work to well on BF or Dreamland, as those platforms are so high that nair won't hit them.

I find it quite difficult to deal with characters that can quickly reach the top platform and come down on me with aerials. M2's double jump prevents him from doing the same. Falco is quite strong from this position, as many already are aware. Falco just sucks, because his lasers make it way harder to approach or even pretend to, and then if I get to center stage he will simply retreat to top plat and throw out his damned powerful long lasting dair hitbox which seemingly trades at best to all of my options. Good Falco's don't get shield grabbed much either, so it's free as long as they keep their execution up.

All in all, I've made some improvements this week and it's beginning to really show in my overall performance. I don't have any new vids of this, as my computer's motherboard is out for repairs and I've been playing on my wife's PC while she's away. I'll have vids up, probably in a week or so from now, showing this way of thinking and playing Mewtwo.

Original post below:

Spoiler

I've actually been using the ftilt a lot more the past couple of days, to the point that I use it more as my go to tilt in neutral. It just covers more stuff, and I'd rather get a static punish of a few percent then get punished for a dtilt. Angled up it cuts off aerial approaches like a boss. Hell, sometimes it hits with the tip and in the chaos I get a grab, although that is a rare occurrence. I've also started doing utilts like Zoma when I suspect a running grab from Fox. Up tilt is also great when they try to go for something like short hop shine (as a feint for a shffl) double jump > aerial, as you have a lot of time to react with utilt. So yeah, using dtilt only when it will work is the way to go. I don't think it's much of a neutral tool anymore.

Another thing I started doing just last night was to go for fairs instead of grabs. I did this just because I was wanting to focus more on improving my DJC antics and not to win. Turns out this is rather the way to go in a lot of cases, and it was an improvement. Early DJC fairs will combo into grab if not more fairs on pretty much every character, so it's a big step up from going straight into a tech chase scenario (on not FD). It's also the case that grab opportunities are also the time one is close enough to do cross-up fairs, which make it *overall* safer than a grab too, and it keeps the pace up which can lead to more situations where you can get something as you are applying good pressure to your opponent.

 

[ihasabuket]

I've personally ended up picking Falcon back up to switch into for floaty matchups I don't think I can win at the moment. I try to go at everything M2 and usually I succeed or get close enough that I'd rather stay M2 and lose than switch. That being said my neutral seems to finally be showing real improvement. Almost won M2 vs Peach last week which I'd say is my current worst top tier matchup.

What is it that you struggle with in this MU? I dont think it's the easiest MU but I dont find it particularly hard either.

 

[Sieghart]

What is it that you struggle with in this MU? I dont think it's the easiest MU but I dont find it particularly hard either.

I have no idea how to successfully combo peach so the match vs. her are generally one big neutral with me alternating between trying to stuff things with ftilt and get raw fairs in. Problem generally being that I'm still pretty bad at the neutral, at least in comparison to the guys I practice with.

 

[ihasabuket]

I have no idea how to successfully combo peach so the match vs. her are generally one big neutral with me alternating between trying to stuff things with ftilt and get raw fairs in. Problem generally being that I'm still pretty bad at the neutral, at least in comparison to the guys I practice with.

You dont really combo her, just try to get her up in the air or on a platform so you can shark her. You shouldnt be trying to stuff her either. I hadnt really thought about it but the way I play neutral against peach is really MU specific. The way I play this MU revolves a lot around my item game. I completely forgot to share this on here but I know a bunch of mewtwo techs involving items.
The main thing I do in neutral is charge SB from a distance to bait turnips and chargecancel to shield them. If you dont already know, items will go straight up if they hit your shield. This makes them very easy to catch after shielding by simply jumping, drifting forward a bit, and grabbing them in the air with Z.
Mewtwo may not have the fastest throw but he throws items far and DJC allows for some sick approaches.
DJC forward item throw should be your bread and butter in this MU. The forward momentum from the DJC will make you travel just behind the turnip which lets you land in front of peach just after the turnip hits, allowing you to follow up with a grab or normal. Alternatively you can jump forward and DJC neutral item throw to stop your forward momentum and space outside of the CC dsmash range to whiff punish.
Z drop is very useful since the whole animation only lasts 1 frame. Z drop turnip will guarantee a fair because of projectile hitlag; It's just a little difficult to space thats all.
You can also use DJC to z drop turnips and AC an aerial to feint a turnip throw and then use a normal. This is basically what that peach tech called knitting is but with a different purpose.
Keep in mind you can use your special moves while you have a turnip in hand so you can baby SB -> DJC turnip throw to approach.

Nair's landing hitbox will knock peach down at like 20%(maybe 19%) so until she gets to that % just do crossup aerials or zone her. Your tilts are good here but dont ever WD in to approach her or you'll eat a dsmash. Stick to your walking and/or pivot tilts. Besides that just try to get your SB charged and catch turnips. If the peach starts catching on that your shielding and grabbing turnips she'll throw a turnip and jump up to nair you so pay attention to how close she is when she throws a turnip. If shes real close and she's caught on you can wait for her to nair and whiff punish. At this point you just have to wing it because there will be infinite counterplay.

Like I said before you cant really combo her so just get her in the air with upthrow or an aerial. Dthrow isnt very good in this MU; It doesnt give followups and theyre actionable before they hit the ground on DI away. Once shes there just shark with upairs and ****.

Edgeguarding her is tricky as usual but bair covers a lot of space and your aerial mobility helps you go far out.

 

[MookieRah]

Guys, I'm thinking that charging shadow ball is legitimately a solid approach now. It takes getting used to, and knowhow in regards to when to use it, but it feels like a game changer. I'm pushing back GOOD Marths, Foxes, Falcos, and Falcons with this, pressuring them into poor options. Pretty much any time I feel my opponent about to turtle up or already stuck in shield, jumping forward turn-around shadow ball charge just chips at them like a very angry buzz saw of justice.

It's more than just a move to put pressure, you can also use it to craftily press forward on Falco. I was basically doing lots of full jump shenanigans and then second jump and turn around shadow ball to break through lasers. This worked against several different Falco players, and yeah, they catch on, but it forces them to play honestly, as they can't just do the usual wall of lasers cause they have to worry about my freaking buzz saw coming at their face.

As stated, it wrecks people who CC. I get like 15/25% off of people who are CC'ing pretty much every time, and I usually get a followup grab. I would imagine a followup up smash would work very well too, as it has 10 frames of startup, which is fast enough to catch an opponent that isn't mashing off guard more than likely. I literally have no problems with CC any more, because I'm using the shadow ball charge often enough to discourage it completely.

As a point of reference, I played a guy that only a couple of weeks ago two stocked me consistently. Today, we played several matches and he didn't take a match off of me. They were close, and only one time did I win by a large margin, but it was a huge difference. So much so that when I talked with the guy afterwards he felt that M2 might be legit, something that... most good players never seem to think.

So yeah, it's awkward, but once you find it's niche it is devastating. I no longer fear Falco, and no character is safe when I have my momentum going cause I will just slice through them with this move.

Videos to come in the next week or so. When I have documented examples of how good it is I will contact Zoma and ask him to try it out too. I think if he used this... well he might feel that he could solo main M2.

 

[TheBoat]

I've been using this since back when someone mentioned it a few months ago on here. In many situations/matchups, it seems almost better to charge your SB 3/4 of the way or almost full between stocks instead of all the way. The 3/4 charged SB charge is so big that it seems to beat out a great deal of aerials. The only problem I have with it is that sometimes mewtwo's tail gets hit while approaching with it because it extends so far out once you turn around. I guess I just have to use it in a safer manner.

I've been seeing a bit of success with using SB charge to tech chase or pressure shield on platforms (as well as using side B against people who tend to go into shield after teching on platforms lol). It might just be a funny little gimmick and not that good, but I just love the feeling of decimating someone's shield with a rising SB carge onto a platform.

I can't wait to see how you implemented the SB charge, Mookie!

 

[MookieRah]

TheBoat

It might just be a funny little gimmick and not that good,

I don't think it's a gimmick at all. Think about the attack and how it works with M2's characteristics and it becomes quite clear that it's legit. It's a lingering hitbox we control, and while the hitbox may be small, it is enhanced greatly by Mewtwo's horizontal aerial movement. Pretty much the only thing that shuts it down is if your opponent hits you out of it before the hitbox touches them, but that's where knowing when to use it comes into play. By using it in situations where your opponent does not wish to engage you, it ensures that you will likely not be contested before the hitbox is in contact with your opponent or your shield. These situations happen a lot, based primarily on your position or the situation. It's also very rarely punished when used in the proper situation, even on whiff, because you can cancel it quickly, either by pressing L/R or rolling. So yeah, it has it's flaws, but it's not something that suddenly stops working cause your opponent is aware of it.

A very easy way to start working this into your game is to use it in tech chases. It's quite common for people to tech away from M2 (at least when people play me and I demonstrate that teching in place or rolling away can lead to a free grab) and in the situation in which you predict that, you can easily run forward and place the shadow ball charge on top of them. This beats out pretty much all their options, even if it isn't necessarily the 'best reward'. It's still delivers though, as their DI out determines your follow up, and most people don't know what to do against it which leads to a free grab.

It's also good to use in situations where I wanted to try to do DJC fair crossovers, as it is overall far more versatile mostly because it's effective range is better. Basically if I'm in M2's ideal spacing with tilts I'm also in the ideal spacing for turn around charge.

It has some gimmicky-ish uses as well, and once you get a feel for it you can use it all over the place. I'm starting to use it against aerial opponents, sort of similar to nair, but my goal is more to catch people lower to the ground with the hopes that I will land with them still stuck in mycharge, allowing me some kind of followup. It's also good because the hitbox is better placed to deal with some kinds of aerial attacks than nair due to it's position on M2's body. These uses of it are far more situational, but I wouldn't say that they are a gimmick, as my opponent's awareness of it doesn't prevent it's usefulness entirely.

 

[ihasabuket]

Guys, I'm thinking that charging shadow ball is legitimately a solid approach now. It takes getting used to, and knowhow in regards to when to use it, but it feels like a game changer. I'm pushing back GOOD Marths, Foxes, Falcos, and Falcons with this, pressuring them into poor options. Pretty much any time I feel my opponent about to turtle up or already stuck in shield, jumping forward turn-around shadow ball charge just chips at them like a very angry buzz saw of justice.

It's more than just a move to put pressure, you can also use it to craftily press forward on Falco. I was basically doing lots of full jump shenanigans and then second jump and turn around shadow ball to break through lasers. This worked against several different Falco players, and yeah, they catch on, but it forces them to play honestly, as they can't just do the usual wall of lasers cause they have to worry about my freaking buzz saw coming at their face.

As stated, it wrecks people who CC. I get like 15/25% off of people who are CC'ing pretty much every time, and I usually get a followup grab. I would imagine a followup up smash would work very well too, as it has 10 frames of startup, which is fast enough to catch an opponent that isn't mashing off guard more than likely. I literally have no problems with CC any more, because I'm using the shadow ball charge often enough to discourage it completely.

As a point of reference, I played a guy that only a couple of weeks ago two stocked me consistently. Today, we played several matches and he didn't take a match off of me. They were close, and only one time did I win by a large margin, but it was a huge difference. So much so that when I talked with the guy afterwards he felt that M2 might be legit, something that... most good players never seem to think.

So yeah, it's awkward, but once you find it's niche it is devastating. I no longer fear Falco, and no character is safe when I have my momentum going cause I will just slice through them with this move.

Videos to come in the next week or so. When I have documented examples of how good it is I will contact Zoma and ask him to try it out too. I think if he used this... well he might feel that he could solo main M2.

Huh, when you put it that way it's kinda like a peach dair with variable duration and 8 frames of endlag.

I thought about how to counter a SB charge approach and the corresponding counterplay to it. Basically you can counter this by holding down and away on the cstick, to ASDI out of it while still land canceling, and then use a low move like dtilt. Most characters can dtilt you out of it after doing this. The cool thing is mewtwo can ASDI down during his SB charge to punish. Either that or you can bait them with this and shield the dtilt. Even if you do get hit your floatiness makes followups at dangerous %s unlikely.
Even if your opponent knows how to counter this youre still in an amazing position to counterpunish because of its active frames and chargecancel.

Im also thinking about how useful it is for corner pressuring opponents. If it connects it'll either lead to a followup or push em offstage depending on DI. If they happened to preemptively roll youre already in a perfect position to punish it by simply throwing your SB.
That said, its startup makes it easy to stuff so we still have to use it as a mixup.

 

[TheBoat]

MookieRah

By "funny little gimmick, and maybe not that good", I was referring to just using the SB charge to pressure a shielding opponent on a platform, or using it to cover tech options (as well as shooting the SB to cover options) on platforms, not anything in general. I do think it is definitely good in other situations, but it might not be for covering platforms is what I was meaning.

 

[MookieRah]

I ihasabuket
Yeah, I forgot to mention how in certain situations a 'whiffed' charging shadow ball is something you can toss at your opponent and still possibly score a followup.

As you pointed out, this often happens in tech chase situations if you jump forward to reverse charge and they tech roll through you. The speed and the waviness of the shadowball is perfect, and it's kinda easy to react to the roll and I've hit them out of their roll at seemingly the earliest point of vulnerabilty (like mid way through the roll) several times. Opponents typically don't expect that, and has led to grabs.

Another time this works is in neutral against characters like CF. If I get in quite close with CF during dash dancing I will toss out a reverse charge, and several times they chose that moment to run forward (and through me) in which case they eat a shadowball.

This is also why non-reversed charging shadowball is sometimes preferable, because if you predict your opponent will turtle up it's likely they might roll or wavedash away, and by not reversing it you have the opportunity to throw the shadowball, which is disruptive to your opponent if nothing else.

In general, shadowball is quite possibly one of the best B moves in the game because it's so damn versatile and dynamic.

TheBoat
Sorry that I misinterpreted your post. Regarding the charging shadowball to punish platforms, that may be quite legit too. Seeing as how the shadowball charge cancels M2's vertical momentum, you can probably use it to great effect. I haven't tried that yet, as I've been simply wavelanding to grabs lately, but I will definitely practice this in 20XX and try it out as it seems like it would be an amazing tool.

Can we agree on some sort of term to refer to using the shadow ball charge's hitbox? Something like SBC or CSB (shadowball charge or charging shadowball) It's very clunky to type out. It would likely be a good idea if someone created a new terminology thread and we maintained it for newbies.

 

[TheBoat]

Can we agree on some sort of term to refer to using the shadow ball charge's hitbox? Something like SBC or CSB (shadowball charge or charging shadowball) It's very clunky to type out. It would likely be a good idea if someone created a new terminology thread and we maintained it for newbies.

I can't think of anything better to call it then SBC. I think we should go with that.

 

[Sieghart]

I agree that SBC is the best choice. Easy to understand and intuitive.

 

[MookieRah]

I played a bit lack luster yesterday, and I didn't have a lot of time, but I still managed to get a video that I think showcases some uses of SBC as an attack/pressure option. It definitely helps deal with Falco lasers, as this video shows.

Going for SBC against lasers means that even on a whiff you are likely only to suffer 2% damage. I think I remember someone saying that lasers don't even cancel the charge you have developed at that point, I've been meaning to test that, but if it is true that means you can simply eat lasers in order to get a charge if you wanted.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[MookieRah]

After playing more I don't use SBC as much as I was the past few days. On average I probably bust it out maybe four or five times in a match. That said it's still a vital part of my play, as it does keep people honest when it comes to CC and it's a very valuable tool for busting through projectile spam by Falco and Doc. I still stand by the fact that it makes the Falco matchup much, much easier, as I don't feel like I struggle versus them anymore. If I'm beaten by a Falco now, it's 100% because they are simply a better player and not because I didn't know how to approach the match properly.

EDIT: Dat M2 Combo

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[SuperShus]

The 3/4 charged SB charge is so big that it...

I just want to point out that sbc has the same size hitbox all the time
This is easy to test by toggling hitboxes in 20XX

 

[MookieRah]

I just want to point out that sbc has the same size hitbox all the time
This is easy to test by toggling hitboxes in 20XX

I thought everyone was aware of this, actually. Then again, I've been doing the derp Falcon SBC edgeguard since 2005...

But yeah, SBC is a fairly large hitbox and hits quite low and high and even wider than it looks. It's why it's so good in matches as an offensive move, because you are pretty much only vulnerable until the hitbox comes out. Not only that, since so few people know the M2 matchup a lot of people will run into the hitbox for a grab or will have their tilts stuffed by it. It's really quite good.

 

[SuperShus]

i found that you can u throw falco when he's at zero on FD on any di, uair him and regrab before he's actionable (tho he'll be on the ground)

have you guys been using this?

 

[Sheep McLamb]

i found that you can u throw falco when he's at zero on FD on any di, uair him and regrab before he's actionable (tho he'll be on the ground)

have you guys been using this?

Well, it's extremely situational and impractical in that:
A) You must be Mewtwo
B) Your opponent must be Falco (does it work on Fox?)
C) You must be on Final Destination (it probably works on other stages, though?)
D) Actually grabbing your opponent is extremely difficult in high-level competitive play
E) Grabbing is hard enough, but grabbing at 0 percent will be brutally difficult to do because you can't damage the Falco before the grab-which probably hurts you rather than helping
F) Mewtwo has a less-than-stellar approach, further hindering Mewtwo's chances of grabbing the Falco
G) I may be wrong, but I don't thing it even does much damage or poses much danger to the Falco, so why bother?

Although, in lower-level play or just for fun with mates, I could see myself using this. I'm going to test it soon enough. Good tip!

 

[SuperShus]

this is the mewtwo boards, so a is irrelevant.
against fox all you have to do is djc fair regrab and you can do that 3 times before it stops working
the character you throw goes to high so it doesnt work on other stages
considering how trash mewtwos approaches are, grab isnt that bad
uthrow and uair combined do almost 20 damage so no youre wrong

why are you even posting on the mewtwo boards with a superior additude if you don't know what you're talking about

anyway, you can get djc fair on falco as well if he dis in
make sure to do these uairs/fairs at the absolute end of hitstun of the uthrow or he can dj out after the aerial

 

[Sieghart]

Well, it's extremely situational and impractical in that:
A) You must be Mewtwo

I can only assume this was a poor attempt at a joke.

B) Your opponent must be Falco (does it work on Fox?)

Falco is generally considered the 2nd or 3rd most commonly played character.

C) You must be on Final Destination (it probably works on other stages, though?)

It's called a counter-pick. It's not as if getting FD as M2 isn't an everyday occurrence anyways.

D) Actually grabbing your opponent is extremely difficult in high-level competitive play

First things first, this is not a comment you of all people should be making, especially not in regards to an F tier character while speaking to a bunch of people who are quite obviously not new to the game. That being said SuperShus mentioned a guaranteed followup. The assumption is that you already have the grab. How easy or hard it is to actually get said grab has nothing to do with this.

E) Grabbing is hard enough, but grabbing at 0 percent will be brutally difficult to do because you can't damage the Falco before the grab-which probably hurts you rather than helping

Once again, SuperShus mentioned a guaranteed followup. The assumption is that you already have the grab. How easy or hard it is to actually get said grab has nothing to do with this.

F) Mewtwo has a less-than-stellar approach, further hindering Mewtwo's chances of grabbing the Falco

That is neither here nor there. To reiterate, SuperShus mentioned a guaranteed followup. The assumption is that you already have the grab. How easy or hard it is to actually get said grab has nothing to do with this.

G) I may be wrong, but I don't thing it even does much damage or poses much danger to the Falco, so why bother?

Because it is guaranteed and puts you back where you started anyways, but with more percent on your opponent and likely better control of the stage if you drifted during the followup.

Although, in lower-level play or just for fun with mates, I could see myself using this. I'm going to test it soon enough. Good tip!

Usage of SuperShus's tip is definitely situational, as followups are by definition, but it is quite obviously not impractical seeing as he can obviously do it and claims it is in fact guaranteed. That generally means that it works no matter what.

All that being said I find it hard to believe that someone who would write such an irrelevant and uppity post in reply to a reasonable tip plays at anything but a low-level so I wonder what you and your mates must look like. If I'm wrong then I recommend you learn a bit more about the topic to go along with that high-level skill of yours.

 

[MookieRah]

This is my goto combo for dealing with spacies on FD:

Up throw -> DJC fair (pretty sure it's unescapable) -> regrab up throw -> DJC uair (escapable, but most don't jump ASAP) -> possible regrab or punish. I've seen Zoma do pretty much this entire sequence as well, so I think it's pretty standard.

I've had zero to deaths off this sequence, after the third up throw if I have a fully charged shadowball I will jump up towards them like I'm over-extending and toss it in their face as they try to punish.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[Sheep McLamb]

this is the mewtwo boards, so a is irrelevant.
against fox all you have to do is djc fair regrab and you can do that 3 times before it stops working
the character you throw goes to high so it doesnt work on other stages
considering how trash mewtwos approaches are, grab isnt that bad
uthrow and uair combined do almost 20 damage so no youre wrong

why are you even posting on the mewtwo boards with a superior additude if you don't know what you're talking about

anyway, you can get djc fair on falco as well if he dis in
make sure to do these uairs/fairs at the absolute end of hitstun of the uthrow or he can dj out after the aerial

oh my god this wasn't me is was my idiot friend who plays melee and smash 64 who came over yesterday and used my account
i know nothing about melee mewtwo because i don't use him i promise
even though i realize that i sound like a cowardly fool

 

[MookieRah]

considering how trash mewtwos approaches are, grab isnt that bad

I honestly don't think M2's approaches are that bad, it's just that outside of dtilt they don't have a lot of range. That said, Mewtwo's grab is so damn good, and unlike most throws all of his (save for fthrow) do a lot of damage to boot.

Random thought: When discussing M2's ground options, I think we should consider DJC fair, uair, and nair (DJC or shorthopped) the same way we would regarding a tilt, to be completely honest. I don't know how to properly calculate things, but these are my guesses:

--Updated To add DJC frame--

Fair(DJC Hit on first possible frame)
Total: 25 (13 l-canceled + 6 frames for hit box + 5 jump frames + 1 DJC frame)
Hit: 11 (Frame 5 + 5 jump frames + DJC frame)

Nair (DJC to first hit)
Total: 20? (9 l-canceled + 5 frames for hit box + 5 jump frames + 1 DJC frame)
Hit: 11 (Same as fair)

Nair (short hopped)
Total: 59
Hit:10-? (see normal nair for more)

Uair (DJC Hit on first possible frame)
Total: 25 (10 l-canceled + 9 frames for hitbox + 5 jump frames + 1 DJC frame)
Hit: 15

Nair is different cause you might want to do the full animation vs the djc depending on the situation. Either way, it's one of the fastest aerials in the game in terms of coming out at frame 5.

So yeah, these would be for perfect execution, but even if you fudge it a few frames due to non-perfect inputs, and even a few more for me having the data wrong, they still end up being on par with his tilts in terms of startup and recovery time.

 

[Sieghart]

That's an interesting point, Mookie. I suppose that technically applies to all characters but is more useful for one like M2 who has decent aerials and good tilts. It does kind of put things into perspective in that it actually reminds us that tilts, at least in M2's case, are all faster than aerials, no exceptions. Might change thought processes in neutral, at least for me.

 

[ihasabuket]

Fair(DJC Hit on first possible frame)
Total: 24 (13 l-canceled + 6 frames for hit box + 5 jump frames)
Hit: 11 (Frame 6 + 5 jump frames)

Im looking at masterhand and it says that fair's hitbox is 5-7. SDMs frame data says this too, but for some reason the mewtwo frame data post here on smashboards says its out frames 6-8. Also I wanted to ask, doesnt it take a frame to fastfall a DJC aerial?

Nair (DJC)
Total: 19 (9 l-canceled + 5 frames for hit box + 5 jump frames)
Hit: 10

Dont forget about the landing hitbox.

Nair (short hopped)
Total: 59
Hit:10-? (see normal nair for more)

By Shorthopped do you mean SHFFL'd or just SHL? Either way the move will be active the entire time you're airborne and will have a landing hitbox.

 

[MookieRah]

Sieghart

That's an interesting point, Mookie. I suppose that technically applies to all characters but is more useful for one like M2 who has decent aerials and good tilts.

It only applies to characters that can DJC, as most characters have to hang out in the air for the full duration of their shffl. That is significantly more frames than a perfect timed DJC.

It does kind of put things into perspective in that it actually reminds us that tilts, at least in M2's case, are all faster than aerials, no exceptions.

Also, if I'm right about my data then technically fair, uair, and nair DJCed at the right time have less recovery time than all of his tilts except for dtilt (which has IASA frames). The hitboxes do come out a little bit later, but that's the main difference.

I ihasabuket

Im looking at master/hand and it says that fair's hitbox is 5-7. SDMs frame data says this too, but for some reason the mewtwo frame data post here on smashboards says its out frames 6-8. Also I wanted to ask, doesnt it take a frame to fastfall a DJC aerial?

The extra frame makes sense, as for the other stuff I don't know as I'm not a frame wizard. I'll update things accordingly, as I think the later things are likely more accurate.

Dont forget about the landing hitbox.

When does that activate? Does the first hitbox have to come out for that to work or can it do it before? Come to think of it, I think you can do it so only the landing hitbox comes out, but yeah, I'd like the data on that.

By Shorthopped do you mean SHFFL'd or just SHL? Either way the move will be active the entire time you're airborne and will have a landing hitbox.

That was just for a full animation short hop, but honestly nair is a huge variable which can be whatever you want it to be with your inputs. Oh nair, such an amazing and versatile move.

--------------------------

I just want to reiterate that the point of bringing this up is that an instantly DJC aerial functions more like a grounded attack than an aerial on paper, since you don't have to consider the time in the air. Doing the math, our estimates line up with this as well, in that they have similar recovery times to boot. This is significant, especially when discussing the neutral game, as these tools can be used that way.

Something I've started doing since adjusting to a more aggressive style is to do insta-DJC fairs when I feel my opponent is about to commit, in much a similar way one would pre-emptively use a tilt, and I've clawed characters out of aerials, grabs, and dash attacks this way. Not only that, but due to DJC mechanics I can do that as a feint and slingshot backwards later when they expect that, and punish their attempted punish.

TL:DR - DJC is ****ing amazing and is way better and more versatile than people give it credit for. This really amps up what M2 is capable of, and we should be looking towards finding ways to abuse this as much as we can.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[MookieRah]

Edit: Should have read the link before posting this. Wrote up a very excited post thinking that IDJC Nair could end up hitting at frame 7 or 8 and recover by frame 15 xD. That would have been so wonderful.

In any case, IDJC Nair and Fair are still faster (recovery wise) than M2's jab. I will now be doing IDJC fair any time I would otherwise jab, as it's better in almost every way.

Btw, it's really easy to get insanely fast DJCs with my input method (I don't claw) as well as perform slingshots backwards or forwards. To reiterate it, here is an old vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3ghQUVWnVM

You don't have to do it out of shield with the C-stick, and in fact if I'm not in shield I just press up on the control pad for the second jump input. I'm MUUUCH better at performing that now. To give an example of how easy it is to switch to that, I recorded that video the day I came up with the input idea. It took me about a month of light practice to incorporate it into my game (which sounds like a long time but I wasn't focused on it and a month isn't that long really).

 

[SuperShus]

ok so i figured out that my problem djc fairing falco was that you need to jump up high and djc fair rather than sh-djc fair

also i think uair actually works like 5%-10% longer than fair regrab, but the fair you do at that percent might lead to more than a grab

its actually much harder than i once though to test every djc height, but i will say i think it's easier to do uair regrab if falco does not di at all or slgihtly behind compared to getting turn around fair, but the regrab after the uair is tighter (still not bad imo)

 

[Sieghart]

Sieghart

It only applies to characters that can DJC, as most characters have to hang out in the air for the full duration of their shffl. That is significantly more frames than a perfect timed DJC.

Well, I meant that under the assumption that the move actually hit. I was thinking more that for other characters it puts things into perspective as fair as whiff punishes go. That being said, the reason I think stuff like this goes unnoticed or undeveloped for so long is because most characters get 100x more off of an aerial than they do a tilt in regards to followups. I don't think people care about the neutral, specifically controlling space, enough. That's just my humble opinion, though.

The extra frame makes sense, as for the other stuff I don't know as I'm not a frame wizard. I'll update things accordingly, as I think the later things are likely more accurate.

Fair hitbox is frames 5-7.

Something I've started doing since adjusting to a more aggressive style is to do insta-DJC fairs when I feel my opponent is about to commit, in much a similar way one would pre-emptively use a tilt, and I've clawed characters out of aerials, grabs, and dash attacks this way. Not only that, but due to DJC mechanics I can do that as a feint and slingshot backwards later when they expect that, and punish their attempted punish.

Whiff punishing at its finest. Mookie you're honestly starting to sound like you're on the verge of leveling up bigtime.

TL:DR - DJC is ****ing amazing and is way better and more versatile than people give it credit for. This really amps up what M2 is capable of, and we should be looking towards finding ways to abuse this as much as we can.

I think Ness taught me that as well, despite his poor range. I play such a DJC heavy Ness that stuff like DJC Land which I do a ton of with him OoS or just in neutral that my M2 just suddenly picks it up by default. I even do a bunch of Platform Looping between stocks or even as a movement mixup when I get too comfortable.

 

[MookieRah]

Sieghart
Come to think of it, yeah, I've been whiff punishing with M2 a lot, although it isn't intentional. It has been primarily with grabs, cause I grab people out of attacks due to the animation causing my opponent to lean forward. I think I've developed a lot of habits, especially against Marth, that just so happens to lend itself to whiff punishes, but I'm not actively thinking about it that way. I see it more as the fact that you have to weave in and out of Marth's hitboxes in order to get inside at all, and then you have to press the attack once inside. But now that you mention it, I think one could totally whiff punish stuff like Marth dtilt, because I've done it accidentally and it's not terribly hard to predict. I just have to find a way to practice the spacing to know what would work.

That said, using fairs like I said before is not whiffing because it is actually stuffing their move most of the time. It's less me thinking "they are going to dash grab me now and I will hit their extended limb" and more "I feel it in my gut that they will go on the offensive now, and I will place a fair as they approach". Sometimes it's a whiff punish in instances in which they are off on their spacing, but usually I just stuff it.

That said, after thinking about your post and editing this several times I just realized something. A while back I was talking about psuedo-pivot fairs using shield stops. I think it's entirely possible to use that technique to whiff punish certain things with fair, in much the same way that I will dash into an attack with shield to mess up an l-cancel and allow me to shield grab. For example, against Fox and Falco, if I could correctly predict a nair approach I could use that trick to whiff punish it with ease. I don't even think it would be that hard either.

----------------------------

Honestly, I'm finding more and more that my improvement is often tied to me shifting away from grabbing and instead finding ways to land fairs. I am also beginning to realize that a lot of M2's bad options/properties are getting covered up at high level play, in that skills like whiff punishing and stuffing attacks rules the day. I've been thinking in my head for a while now that, as you proceed upwards in skill a lot of M2's faults become less important. Bear with me, cause I gotta explain the thought and it might be a bit long.

Take Falcon vs Mewtwo for instance. People think the matchup against Falcon is really hard cause he can combo Mewtwo to death. But the thing is that, at a high level, Falcon can pretty much combo Marth to death the same way. Yeah, it's a little bit easier to combo Mewtwo, but at a high enough skill level that just means it bumps the Falcon player's combo execution up by a percentage or two. A high level Mewtwo can also combo the hell out of Falcon, and any time Falcon is off the stage Mewtwo is devastating. So while I do believe that Falcon has the advantage, it's really not by much, and it's not much different than Falcon vs Marth.

Whiff punishing is in a similar boat. Lets compare Mewtwo vs Shiek. Shiek's ground game is just slightly better than Mewtwo's. Most of her tilts are faster, easier to use, and her jab is way, way better than Mewtwo's. However, Shiek doesn't have DJC and has a very short dash. Pivot tilts are difficult to pull off, and due to her dash animation she doesn't get a ton of use out of them. Mewtwo on the other hand has quite a good dash animation for pivoting, and pivoting aerials is far easier than tilts. Fair in this case is superior.

So yeah, I think there is a lot of crazy potential for Mewtwo, and none of it seems outside the scope of what is possible tech wise. We just have to be creative enough to find these solutions and apply them.

 

[ihasabuket]

MookieRah
I got really good at slingshotting my aerials back to fade and forward to crossup using your input method. Now I can actually set up spaced shield pressure using this.
I've found that while fair is good for slingshotting back, Upair is better for crossing up a shield since you hit while youre inside the as opposed to in front of their shield with fair. When you slingshot forward DJC upair but dont fastfall it right away you get crazy distance, like some pikachu ****. Amazing for comboing.
I also started doing this thing where I pivot SH, then DJC bair in place and then fade away very slightly before fastfalling. Its really good for poking in the corner and getting yourself into that range where you can pressure with tilts.

 

[MookieRah]

MookieRah
I got really good at slingshotting my aerials back to fade and forward to crossup using your input method. Now I can actually set up spaced shield pressure using this.
I've found that while fair is good for slingshotting back, Upair is better for crossing up a shield since you hit while youre inside the as opposed to in front of their shield with fair. When you slingshot forward DJC upair but dont fastfall it right away you get crazy distance, like some pikachu ****. Amazing for comboing.
I also started doing this thing where I pivot SH, then DJC bair in place and then fade away very slightly before fastfalling. Its really good for poking in the corner and getting yourself into that range where you can pressure with tilts.

You sir, need to record some videos somehow, as I'd love to see some of your solutions in action, mostly bair stuff. I'm thinking I could interchange bair with SBC in certain situations, as how SBC takes time to land but I still make it work. Bair should also be quite effective despite it's slow start-up and I'd love to have some extra range.

I'll practice those along with perfecting my IDJC fairs. I think this added bit of tech can push me even farther.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Now be forewarned that my Mewtwo is absolutely terrible, and I don't think I will ever be able to get him to a competent level. However, I've experiemented with doing DJC fairs out of a dash dance to punish whiffed moves. It seems like it could be pretty good, considering that fair usually directly combos into your other aerials at low and mid percents. I'm just curious if this is something implemented at all by the Mewtwo community.

 

[MookieRah]

I have video of me doing this. I've been working on this since I found out that fair is faster than jab. It's legit as hell.