Advancing the Mewtwo Meta Game

[ChivalRuse]

I feel like Mewtwo has some of the most non-standard frame data and hitboxes. He's a pretty unintuitive character, and therefore offers a lot of room for optimization. Taj provided a great blue print though.

 

[MookieRah]

Taj was simply amazing if you consider the fact that he was pretty much doing it all on his own. I know how that was, cause before Taj all I had to go off on was old conversations from Umbreon and my own practice. Sadly, things aren't much better, in that there aren't a lot of M2 players, but even if we are small we are quite an active community here on the M2 boards.

That said, with the rise of Zoma and a lot of the latest discoveries we have made, there is so much more to M2 than what Taj alone accomplished. It seems to me that there is a huge well of potential left in this character, and the more I learn the more it covers up his weaknesses and boosts his strengths.

 

[ChivalRuse]

One thing, for example, that is super unexplored is doing a SH retreating turn around neutral b charge to cover your retreat out of a bad spot. I mean, I know that neutral b charge hitbox is always a hot topic on here, but Mewtwo really does struggle with having hitbox priority to protect himself from grabs and other approaches simultaneously. I think this option is just too underlooked.

 

[MookieRah]

You need to read up this thread, cause I've been talking about SBC (shadow ball charge's hitbox) quite a lot recently xD.

 

[MookieRah]

This post was meant for another thread, whoops!

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah, I know that SBC is talked about on the Mewtwo boards. I just wanted to bring it up again because it's one of Mewtwo's options that I get super obsessed about

There's a smasher on netplay who goes by "Cassiusgentle". He used to play tons of Mewtwo, and he was ranked in the top 10 on the ladder. I think he started using other characters though lately.

 

[MookieRah]

There is a distinction to be made between a really good player that happens to also use Mewtwo, and a really good player that only uses Mewtwo. Until the later happens, people will simply discredit the use of Mewtwo, as they will cite him as not being a valid solo-main or claim that they never use that character in important matchups (see every discussion on Taj ever).

More on the topic of this thread though, IDJC fair makes the Jiggs matchup so much easier. Wall of pain isn't effective when you can fair through the obvious bairs, and suddenly Jiggs has to think about his/her approaches more.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[MookieRah]

In a typical WoP there is the top bair and the bottom bair. You can IDJC the bottom fair, or any approach that is low-ish with IDJC. It's a matter of spacing, and being able to recognize when they plan to approach. Since IDJC isn't that hard technically and is quite fast it makes it manageable to react/time it, at least for me. Previously I found it incredibly hard to punish bairs in a similar fashion, but it's second nature with IDJC. That is not to say I punished every bair, but I punished enough that it stopped the typical strategy and forced the player to adapt.

I really wish I recorded those matches now.

 

[ihasabuket]

Wait do you whiff punish or stuff jiggs bair?

 

[MookieRah]

It was a little bit of both, depending on the situation. Early on it was more stuffing, as he didn't yet respect my options. Later on he did it In neutral to zone me out, not so much intending to necessarily hit me, and I scratched up those Jiggly toes. I caught him a few times with other low height aerials too.

Once you get them second guessing, Nair becomes an incredible option because it catches them if they don't have a hitbox out too.

EDIT:
It seems like you guys are very surprised you can do this consistently, but the thing is I have been trying to punish this stuff all along. Anything that a player does that is repetitive, even if it's safe, is something you should try to crack. The crazy thing is, IDJC fair is actually one of the best tools for the job due to it's speed and versatility. WoP is a great example of something that is generally safe but exploitable here, because almost all players will do the basic predictable pattern at some point. All you have to do is put yourself in the right position and time it right.

If you doubt the effectiveness of it, that I'm exaggerating things or I'm full of ****, just try it yourself. I personally don't think it's that hard once you get the tech for IDJC down, but you have to put yourself out there in order to learn it. One of the big things about my netplay grinding is that I literally try everything. If something doesn't work, I just start tossing **** out. I go for the gutsy moves like trying to scratch a Samus bair. I'll fail 100 times before I get it, but it gets better from there.

 

[ChivalRuse]

What do you hit Puff with when she whiffs her bair? She can just duck Mewtwo's grab.

I'm guessing you can go for DJC fair? Nair seems tricky to use in that situation.

 

[MookieRah]

These videos were from early this week, but they are still some good examples of things. I don't feel like tracking down timestamps, but in each vid I do some things that I've been talking about.

Using IDJC fairs to beat Fox nair and more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tglTTwszfrs

Some mostly unintentional whiff punishes and stuffs that I do from just habit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcS1yNofbYU

I get a lot of grabs off of Marth's when they lean in with forward smash or other attacks. I also run towards aerials that whiff in front of my nose and I land a fair or two.

--------------

On another topic, I watched a few somewhat recent Taj vids and am just amazed so much by his movement and how that allows him to get so many d-tilts. I think I'm going to start working on getting max length wavedashes and other things soon, cause his wavedashes go for miles.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Using fair to intercept Fox's nair seems risky because if they just running upsmash instead they will beat the fair because of the invincibility on the upsmash.

 

[Sieghart]

Using fair to intercept Fox's nair seems risky because if they just running upsmash instead they will beat the fair because of the invincibility on the upsmash.

The only part of Fox that is invincible during his upsmash is his head, Fox's head is never any farther forward than the rest of his body, and he start's leaning wayyyyyy backward 3 frames before the Upsmash hitbox first comes out. I don't quite get how a Fox could get much mileage out of running Upsmash as a mixup for Nair if you're being diligent in neutral in the first place. The difference between the two is pretty easy to spot so I imagine it's a gimmick at best.

That being said, I don't really think Fair is simply the answer to Fox's Nair and that's that. Not with my reaction time in neutral, at least. I do think it works often enough that the benefits far outweigh the risks, though.

 

[MookieRah]

IDJC fair is not the answer to all of Fox's nairs. It's the answer to predictable approaches (this includes run up grab/upsmash/whatever too). It prevents the Fox player from overrunning you with pure offense, as well as forces him to respect your options and adapt accordingly. Very smart uses of nair, especially in situations with cross-ups, are very hard to punish with IDJC fair. For those situations a running nair at Fox wins, as you will catch him with your hitbox before he uses his nair.

So, to recap, using Fox nair as a battering ram (the extended hurtbox) is punishable by IDJC fair. Using the Fox nair in any sort of precision fashion, if predicted, is beaten by Mewtwo's nair.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Doesn't confusion beat all of those options too? I guess confusion has way longer recovery frames though, and less reward for landing it. But it does have the benefit of beating shield.

Also, doesn't wavedash back d-tilt beat nair pretty much always? And if they over shoot the nair you can shield with your back to them and reverse shield grab.

 

[MookieRah]

Confusion is unsafe on hit.

Wavedash back dtilt concedes space and can be cc'd.

Reverse shield grab is great assuming you have the time to turn around and shield. As someone who does this A LOT, I can safely say that you don't have time to do that in a lot of situations, and turning your back on them actually extends your hurtbox behind you.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Okay well you kind of baited this out, but what about reverse SBC? :D

 

[MookieRah]

Reverse SBC, on an escape, is even more situational really. It has way too much startup time for that. About the only time I recommend using SBC is when you are applying pressure on your opponent, because then they will likely back down or try to retreat. Generally I find myself doing this when they are stuck under a lower platform.

If you have been in the Marth forums, a good time to use SBC seems to be similar to when nair is a good option.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Okay, well that brings me full circle back to what you were saying about nair. Are you saying SH retreating nair can stuff a Fox nair approach?

 

[Sieghart]

Okay, well that brings me full circle back to what you were saying about nair. Are you saying SH retreating nair can stuff a Fox nair approach?

Do you mean Fair? If so, then here's a quick hitbox/hurtbox comparison as proof:

If not then I'll let MookieRah take over.

 

[MookieRah]

Let me clarify everything, seeing how it's getting confusing.

If Fox and Mewtwo are flying toward each other in the air with their nairs out, Fox wins (generally speaking). So M2 nair loses to Fox nair.

If Fox and Mewtwo are flying toward each other in the air and Fox has his nair out, Mewtwo's fair wins.

We all knew that.

Here is the thing. By stopping Fox from just flying at Mewtwo with the nair hitbox out all the time, you force them to only make aerial approaches that are much safer or are a cross-over or risk a big punish. This means they don't actually do an attack until they are close to Mewtwo. So that means if you jump at Fox with a nair, you will catch him with your hitbox. This then prompts Fox to start throwing out nair early, which is beaten by fair.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[MookieRah]

Yeah, M2 nair can win, but it's very conditional. It's risky to try to win on a nair to nair confrontation, especially when fair is a better tool most of the time (assuming your tech and reaction/prediction game is good enough) and leads to really big punishes. I usually go for full jump nairs when I think my opponent will full jump themselves.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Nair's disjoint seems good enough to beat an approaching Fox nair most of the time. It's the intermittent hitbox (with constant 2 frame gap) that seems to enable trading. If you do a SH retreating nair, I imagine this would compensate for the hitbox inconsistency though.

Additionally, f-tilt and u-tilt seem to have a similar ratio of disjoint to fair. Any reason why these aren't good options for stuffing a Fox nair?

 

[MookieRah]

Nair's disjoint seems good enough to beat an approaching Fox nair most of the time. It's the intermittent hitbox (with constant 2 frame gap) that seems to enable trading. If you do a SH retreating nair, I imagine this would compensate for the hitbox inconsistency though.

Now that I'll try, especially for opponents that I can't seem to manage their timing. Jump back nair would likely send them forwards and I could likely get a nice follow-up to boot.

Additionally, f-tilt and u-tilt seem to have a similar ratio of disjoint to fair. Any reason why these aren't good options for stuffing a Fox nair?

U-tilt is really wonky and barely does anything unless you hit it just right, and that sweet spot is very peculiar. I'm not certain, but I think some of the weaker hit boxes on it are unsafe on hit, at least against most of the cast with quick jabs. In general, I feel it requires more precision to hit the sweet spot of the u-tilt than it does to land a fair.

F-tilt is a decent option, and much easier to land, but the problem with it is that it doesn't give you much if you hit with it.

Fair requires precision and technical ability, but and it has less recovery time than all of Mewtwo's grounded moves. Fair also has something the other two don't, in that I don't have to commit to fair at all. In fact, sometimes I just short hop where I expect an attack to come, and if my opponent delays or doesn't engage at all I am safe. I only fair when they are on top of me. If I had thrown out a tilt instead I'm locked into that action and my opponent could punish it (this has happened a lot). Hell, more often than not if I'm not downright punished for the attack they have enough time to cross me over and start applying pressure.[/Quote][/Quote]

 

[ChivalRuse]

F-tilt and fair both come out on frame 6. If you're sticking out a move reactively as you said, instead of preemptively, then f-tilt would be the better option. Because with fair, even if you don't "commit" to it by activating the move while airborne, you're still committing to the jump. Most fast characters, once they see you jump, will put themselves in a position to shark your landing.

 

[SuperShus]

in case you guys haven't tried it yet

the 4.05 fox cpu is good for figuring out which stuff is safe and what stuff isn't because it acts randomly and it knows when it is actionable and when it isn't so it will shine you out of everything and including things you never knew you could be shined out of, and teching things you never knew you could tech

yeah, all the hitboxes of utilt are unsfe on hit except the sweet spot

 

[MookieRah]

F-tilt and fair both come out on frame 6. If you're sticking out a move reactively as you said, instead of preemptively, then f-tilt would be the better option.

Fair comes out at frame 10 on a perfect IDJC, although I rarely do perfect IDJC's when I intercept. I pre-emptively jump when I suspect an approach, then I react with a fair. A lot of times the jump even provokes the approach. In other words, sometimes fair is faster than the tilts.

Because with fair, even if you don't "commit" to it by activating the move while airborne, you're still committing to the jump. Most fast characters, once they see you jump, will put themselves in a position to shark your landing.

Actually, you aren't that vulnerable to them sharking you. You can slingshot forward or backwards, and you can take your pick of fair, nair, or uair to intercept their option. Hell, if we are talking about Fox/Falco them sharking you is kinda what you are setting them up for anyways. Fair's hitbox hits pretty low, so it's not as if they are less vulnerable to it if they try to sneak under you. Going from above gives you plenty of time to respond as well. That isn't even mentioning that if you do need to retreat, you often have the option to teleport.

This isn't true for some of the cast though. Marth will eat you if you aren't spaced safely, slingshot back or not. Falcon nairs are also a problem, as they are way harder to punish due to how long the hitbox is and the fact that his hurtbox is moving the entire time. In those matches you have other ways of employing fair and other tricks to deal with it though.

 

[ChivalRuse]

No, fair takes 6 frames to come out even after you are airborne. So it is == f-tilt in terms of startup on the hitbox. It does feel like it's closer to 3 frames, but it is not. It is never faster than f-tilt.

Sure, you have DJC options to come down, but I would definitely say it's a disadvantage to be airborne vs a grounded character who is near enough to punish you.

 

[MookieRah]

Nope, you are going by the old data in the Mewtwo hitbox/framedata thing that is wrong. I think both Sieghart and MeleeMewtwo confirmed that it is 5 frames.

Also, feel free to continue telling me how bad it is as I continue to get better using it and start collecting more and more footage of me using it with success :-P. At this point it seems you are so focused on convincing me that it's a bad idea, and I'm honestly not sure why. I never said "fair wins everything all the time" I said fair can beat "predictable" approaches, and not only that fair converts into stuff much better than almost all of Mewtwo's moveset.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[ChivalRuse]

Nope, you are going by the old data in the Mewtwo hitbox/framedata thing that is wrong. I think both Sieghart and MeleeMewtwo confirmed that it is 5 frames.

Also, feel free to continue telling me how bad it is as I continue to get better using it and start collecting more and more footage of me using it with success :-P. At this point it seems you are so focused on convincing me that it's a bad idea, and I'm honestly not sure why. I never said "fair wins everything all the time" I said fair can beat "predictable" approaches, and not only that fair converts into stuff much better than almost all of Mewtwo's moveset.

I'm not trying to tell you it's bad. I'm just attempting to consider all the options. I hate to pigeonhole a discussion on neutral, when there are so many possible answers to be looked at.

Obviously, if you can use fair on reaction to certain nair attacks, then that's great considering the reward of landing a fair.

Regarding the frame data being updated: well, that's good news. Obviously a frame 3-4 aerial is ideal, but 5 frames is quite quick still.

 

[MookieRah]

Right now I'm basically on a roll with exploring options that have not been explored. Look back a few weeks/a month ago when I discussed SBC. I intentionally use the hell out of something and report my findings here. After experimenting with SBC I can safely say that one should use it fairly sparingly, and it lends itself to certain situations. Right now I'm exploring fair use, mostly IDJC fair, but also using fair as a means of stopping approaches. I'm using it way more than I should, but the point is to learn.

I also think that, due to the difficulty of it, that it's something that should be revisited, because technically fair does beat a lot of aerials cleanly. If we write things off as being too hard to do consistently without exploring it, we aren't doing ourselves any favors.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Did anyone else notice that Mewtwo's tail hurtbox moves to the other side of his body for pretty much the whole up-smash animation. In other words, doing a reverse up-smash is strictly better if you want to avoid trading or losing cleanly.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[ChivalRuse]

The same concept applies as with Luigi. To stop your wavedash forward momentum, you need to wavedash in place. Wavedash forward, then wavedash in place, then d-tilt.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[ChivalRuse]

Sure, but if you don't do it in the situations you're talking about, you will get grabbed by any Marth mashing ASDI down + shield grab.